Yes. Yes, people will gravitate towards the cheapest option, regardless of its socioeconomic impact. Which is why we have laws and regulations.
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Uber might lose license in London if TFL decide not to renew (Up: not renewed)
- Thread starter jufonuk
- Start date
Yes. Yes, people will gravitate towards the cheapest option, regardless of its socioeconomic impact. Which is why we have laws and regulations.
Being a conscious consumer apparently only works right up until it slightly inconveniences you.
Uber is a company that deserves to fail. No sympathy for them.
tonysidaway
Member
Omelas on the Central Line.
UnemployedVillain
Member
What is it with nonsense posts like this? You think people were never assaulted in black cabs?
PdotMichael
Banned
Tell that TFL
tonysidaway
Member
It's far from nonsense. One of the reasons why the licence is not being renewed is that Uber knowingly fails in its responsibility to forward complaints about assault to the police. The Met themselves raised this in April this year, and specifically mentioned a rapist who was permitted to stay as a driver despite a complaint. He predictably went on to commit another assault.
https://theguardian.com/technology/...report-sex-attacks-by-drivers-says-met-police
I just wish people would check their own facts before mouthing off like this.
I'd imagine they actually reported the crimes, which is the point.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Mouthing off like what? My complaint was mainly this black and white framing of the danger of taking an ride sharing apps vs a standard taxis. There's an inherent danger in both, but Uber, for the reasons you stated, are getting shit for not appropriately protecting their passengers from some of those potential dangers.
Now maybe the comment was specifically addressing Uber and not ride sharing in general, in which case ignore what I said as they've earned the criticism, but I think some people here are using the two interchangeably and present the underlying model as problematic
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Lol, get fucked Uber
Garbage exploitation factory is garbage
Garbage exploitation factory is garbage
tonysidaway
Member
You think? In a thread about Uber's licence not being renewed because of, inter alia, "its approach to reporting serious criminal offences" and "its approach to how Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks are obtained?"
Now tell me, what on earth could have given you the idea that somebody commenting on this thread would choose to talk about Uber? /S
Stallion Dan
Member
They run at a huge loss with low prices while trying kill the competition, all the while lowering the standards of the industry.
Why do people favour this shit?
Why do people favour this shit?
fabricated backlash
Member
Because it's a new silicon valley darling and they save a few pennies.
tonysidaway
Member
Uber is also facing a loss in a recent ruling granting basic employee rights to its workers in the UK. It's appealing.
http://www.cityam.com/263183/uber-granted-appeal-landmark-legal-case-over-employment
Apparently in the meantime they have conceded in part, granting injury cover and sick pay.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...ffer-drivers-sick-pay-row-workers-rights/amp/
http://www.cityam.com/263183/uber-granted-appeal-landmark-legal-case-over-employment
Apparently in the meantime they have conceded in part, granting injury cover and sick pay.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...ffer-drivers-sick-pay-row-workers-rights/amp/
giant_frying_pan
Member
I'm conflicted on this one.
I don't think it's difficult to disagree with the reasoning that TfL has taken here. That said, even if Uber complied with everything, black cabbies would still fight their right to operate.
Uber is a shitty company, but this leaves the door less ajar for similar services to operate in London. The city needs competition and black cabs need impetus to improve their service.
As an aside, Uber is only cheap in the US in my experience. I've used Uber across the UK and in Central Europe and it is generally more expensive than private hire (calling a firm and booking a cab in advance) and sometimes ride hailing (black cabs).
I won't necessarily be upset if Uber is locked out of London, but I will be if other services are.
I don't think it's difficult to disagree with the reasoning that TfL has taken here. That said, even if Uber complied with everything, black cabbies would still fight their right to operate.
Uber is a shitty company, but this leaves the door less ajar for similar services to operate in London. The city needs competition and black cabs need impetus to improve their service.
As an aside, Uber is only cheap in the US in my experience. I've used Uber across the UK and in Central Europe and it is generally more expensive than private hire (calling a firm and booking a cab in advance) and sometimes ride hailing (black cabs).
I won't necessarily be upset if Uber is locked out of London, but I will be if other services are.
This is why this ruling is super irresponsible.
tonysidaway
Member
I really don't think it does. The reasons why TfL refused to renew the licence have nothing to do with the app-based, free-agent, social feedback principles of this kind of service, and are wholly based on Uber's own piratical disregard for the rules, particularly those relating to customer safety.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ber/licensing-decision-on-uber-london-limited
giant_frying_pan
Member
Well the problem is that cabbies still hold a lot of power. Not necessarily a bad thing as unions are absolutely a huge positive in my opinion, but when the time comes in the future to award a license to a Lyft, for example, you'll have cabbie groups and the RMT pointing at this decision as a cautionary tale.
If the service and value offered by black cabs kept pace somewhat with these newer services, none of this would be an issue.
I completely agree regarding safety and that's where I agree strongest TfL's reasoning. But the concept of ride sharing or private hire isn't inherently less safe and certainly not compared with having no transportation options at all.
Essentially, black cabs have to modernise and reform. 'The Knowledge' is an admirable and difficult skill to obtain, but whether drivers like it or not, it is going to matter less and less until it doesn't matter at all.
He is the one irresponsible. Even if Uber would be allowed, noone should quit their jobs to become a Uber driver. Ever.
More like their contracts weren't renewed
HarryHengst
Member
Online petitions are shit and should never be used to measure the support for anything.
tonysidaway
Member
Whatever reasons TfL gives for refusing a licence to any cab firm has to be proof against judicial review. I don't see a problem here.
KarneeKarnay
Member
This is not a slippery slope argument. Uber is one of the shadiest companies in existence. Taking that out of the situation for a moment, Uber has a proven history flaunting the rules and regulations where ever they operate. Even ignoring that.
This decision was about safety for drivers and passengers. Uber was given 4 months to shape up and it failed to do so. It doesn't do background checks for a criminal history, it has repeatedly failed to do anything about complaints or even crime that have taken place in an Uber vehicle.
Uber was the most successful of the Taxi app business and the first to really make it in London. They are no longer the sole choice and there are plenty of other app based choices you can use in the London area.
This decision was about safety for drivers and passengers. Uber was given 4 months to shape up and it failed to do so. It doesn't do background checks for a criminal history, it has repeatedly failed to do anything about complaints or even crime that have taken place in an Uber vehicle.
Uber was the most successful of the Taxi app business and the first to really make it in London. They are no longer the sole choice and there are plenty of other app based choices you can use in the London area.
Can't speak to how it works in London, or the security issues that have been raised (unreported crimes etc) - but my experience with Uber in my own city has been positive, and all the drivers I spoke to preferred driving for them than the local alternative. Nearly all of them, without prompting, felt they were getting more respect from passengers - particularly on the drunken weekend nights.
London is a huge market, and at its core idea - Uber is a good one - they should address the issues around employment and passenger safety. If they do, I see no reason they should be banned from London thereafter.
London is a huge market, and at its core idea - Uber is a good one - they should address the issues around employment and passenger safety. If they do, I see no reason they should be banned from London thereafter.
tonysidaway
Member
Yes, that is all they need to do: address those issues (and convince TfL that Greyball no longer attempts to circumvent regulatory monitoring and law enforcement).
Seriously, a bunch of short-sighted people
If you take a risk to get into a disruptive industry when the regulations are still being debated, the law has no responsibility to consider your loss in making future rulings.
Think of it this way, there's a product being imported into a country that falls under a grey area regulation-wise. There's demand for this product but there's speculation that it might be banned in future. For the time being it is legal to import and sell it because the law doesn't cover it. You decide to gamble on this and put all your savings into importing tons of the product to strike while the iron is hot. It's looking good for a couple of months, and then the product is banned. You're not stuck with shit you cannot sell and have to get rid of. You lost hundreds of thousands. Is the law super irresponsible for not taking your sad plight into account? Nope.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
dunno about you but in the Netherlands Uber is just far better in every single way over taxis.
I'm entirely ignoring the controversies surrounding Ubers management here btw.
1. GPS logged and identified driver, so that's safer than a cab already
2. good indication of cost prior to ordering.
3. no money transaction at all, which is massively convenient.
4. the price is generally lower
regular taxis can fucking suck it.
again, I'm entirely ignoring Ubers apparently shitty management and only talking about the excellent ride service I've personally experienced.
One upshot of Uber is the industry has had to adjust and phone ordering with no money transaction is fast becomming standard. Indeed you see Uber is simply a jump off point to other taxi services in some places (like Dublin)
Wrestlemania
Banned
Amsterdam is where a friend of mine left her phone in an Uber, then when the driver came back with it he held it ransom for €200 and said "I'm sure your family wouldn't like to see your photos of what you got up to over here".
When she complained to Uber they said they'd suspended him for a day and gave her a pitiful amount of credit.
Driver identification doesn't mean shit when Uber are failing miserably to act on what is reported to them, which is exactly one of the reasons they haven't had their licence renewed.
tonysidaway
Member
That's very welcome. Although I think some taxi and hire car firms had that before, the entry of companies like Uber has certainly changed expectations for the better in this regard.
tonysidaway
Member
Yikes, they really ought to report this crap to the police, and do they really want a predator like that on their books?
nelsonroyale
Member
The lazy persons approach to making a fuss. Let them have their petition. This is as far as the Uber crowd will go to fight for their perceived penny saving and convenience.
nelsonroyale
Member
And now you are going to have to use public transport more, like a more responsible citizen who has some standards of practice.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Laws aren't written on the scale of a single person. Whether you personally have been in an incident with Uber doesn't matter, overall they're not following the requirements set out in the industry. It's in the same sort of logic that car makers can't start flaunting safety regulations for the passengers, just because I personally have never been in a car accident.
The Greek Freak
Member
My experience with traditional cabs have been so bad I'm considering changing up our European vacation plans (we are going to be near London for work this fall).
At this point it would have to be a legitimate emergency for me to consider getting in a regular American cab again. Are London cabbies near universal racist scam artists like major U.S. cities?
At this point it would have to be a legitimate emergency for me to consider getting in a regular American cab again. Are London cabbies near universal racist scam artists like major U.S. cities?
Just take the bus or tube. Get Citymapper, a travelcard and you'll be whizzing around the city.
Says the man from his coushy 9 to 5 job. The fact that the guy wanted to and is now being penalized simply because the argument of get fucked Uber makes for compelling case of contempt. I use Uber in every city I travel to when I can and have never had any issues save for my first time using the service.
Is there a count of how many London Uber drivers there were?
Wrestlemania
Banned
Uber have failed the drivers, not TfL. Uber were given a four month extension to sort their shit out and they failed. They've now acknowledged this and have an opportunity to make improvements so they can continue operating.
ClosingADoor
Member
Uber in Holland is just regular taxi's using the app. Most of them do both Uber and normal taxi driving. They banned the UberPop stuff pretty quickly here, and rightfully so. The only difference is the app, and Uber giving cheaper prices because it can run a loss due to investor money.
tonysidaway
Member
You haven't been paying attention. TfL has listed some very serious reasons, one of which we know was raised in a formal letter to TFL by the head of the Metropolitan Police in April. Check the original post for links. It isn't a case of "fuck you, Uber", but chronic failure of the company to perform its most basic duties to safeguard the public.
Not were, _are_. If as expected Uber appeals, those drivers will be able to continue to operate until the appeal is exhausted.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
Agreed. You said it better than I could and I'm not from the UK. Hopefully other companies who do follow the rules , now get a shot to do the right thing and build their brand. Uber has become garbage lately.
frankie_baby
Member
Uber continuing to make themselves look classy, they're appealing the judgement that said they have to actually pay their drivers minimum wage and give them holiday pay
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41400745
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41400745
tonysidaway
Member
That's been brewing for nearly a year. The case and its appeal are being heard by the employment tribunal system rather than a formal court. This is to keep costs down and make it easier for individuals to bring grievances against employers with deep pockets who could otherwise bury the plaintiffs in legal expenses.
Even if Uber loses the appeal, the tribunal could grant Uber the right to a court appeal or Uber could successfully petition the court of appeal on their own behalf. So this case might conceivably go on for a very long time. This is particularly likely in a case where new practices are being tested by the courts for the first time and Parliament hasn't addressed the situation with new legislation.
tonysidaway
Member
FT has a very good article with profiles of Uber drivers working in London.
https://www.ft.com/content/dfad68ca-a49d-11e7-b797-b61809486fe2
Edit: apologies for not earlier marking this as a paywall link. I was able to read it all without membership (to the best of my knowledge) or paying, but I know these paysites can have some very odd exclusions.
https://www.ft.com/content/dfad68ca-a49d-11e7-b797-b61809486fe2
Edit: apologies for not earlier marking this as a paywall link. I was able to read it all without membership (to the best of my knowledge) or paying, but I know these paysites can have some very odd exclusions.
Paywalled.