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I'm trying to understand the perspective of the "Disrespecting our flag" crowd

G

Goodstyle

Member
I'm reminded of people in my personal life who feel like it's the same as disrespecting a religion, but I'm still not finding the logic here.

There's a lot of different ways to protest, and every single one that inconveniences people like traffic blocking raises a huge amount of ire. I don't agree with those people, but I get why they're mad. But kneeling during the flag hurts literally no one. I'm getting so angry just thinking about the reasoning of these people.

And the military community whining about this feels supremely self-important to me and duplicitous. There are plenty of vets who are OK with it, the ones who aren't just don't care about the cause they're kneeling for. It's not about the flag, they just don't care about black lives.

My parents are black so they support the protest, but if anyone here knows anyone with a perspective on the other side, I'd love to hear it. I just can't wrap my head around these overwrought reactions to simple kneeling during the anthem.
 
A

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Everyone is going to have their own reasons. However, I view it as people aren't doing what they are being told to do, ie, staying in their place. So, opposing people are hiding behind the flag as a screen for many things.

The why to this is rarely ever broached. People have shown little interest in that on one side, more of a how dare they sort of feel.
 
G

GrizzNKev

Banned
Goodstyle said:
And the military community whining about this feels supremely self-important to me and duplicitous. There are plenty of vets who are OK with it, the ones who aren't just don't care about the cause they're kneeling for. It's not about the flag, they just don't care about black lives.
Click to expand...

You nailed it. Like all the other things these people do, they find ways to spread their hate using indirect messages like supposed patriotism, economics, etc.
 
M

MegaManTrigger

Banned
Posting what I had in another thread which also relates to this whole idea of respecting the flag, not protesting bc army men fought for your freedom, etc.

MegaManTrigger said:
Trump is an idiot, what else is new.

Also I have big problems with the argument being parroted that bc army men fought for freedom that it invalidates using the anthem as a platform bc of some stupid notion of "patriotism", "nationality", "freedom." It is by far one of the dumbest things I've seen parroted on Twitter (not that I expected much in the first place).

If you want to go back to both WWs then what about all that stolen land from First Nations and Aboriginal peoples? You can't use that war argument and then conveniently ignore periods in history where people were ostracized to get to where we are today. Patriotism/Jingoism is a product built out of suffering, forced conformation and ostracism and we're supposed to feel proud about that? How about realizing that patriotism and notions of freedom being completely arbitrary and and horseshit?
Click to expand...
 
N

Nanashrew

Banned
It's not about the flag, it's about racism and wanting to put people in their place. Conservatives flew their flags upside down to show they were against Obama's re-election.
 
D

Domcorleone

Member
It’s quite simple. They are racists and want to keep the conversation on anything other than their own racism and how the police protect them from scary blacks
 
S

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
To many of these people, the US has never been anything but a place that treated them well. They want to respect the flag and sing the anthem and pledge the allegiance because the country has been great to them.

They can't understand that for millions of people this country has not been so kind, welcoming, and helpful. They lack the empathy to understand what its like to know you've had equal rights for less than a human lifespan and the nation that oppressed you still spits on you, murders your children, and blames you for it's issues. They can't comprehend it and so they can't comprehend why someone would want the nation to respect them first before they in turn respect their flag and song.
 
L

Liu Kang Baking A Pie

Member
It's similar to the "Support Our Troops" mentality post-9/11. Blind patriotism, fascism, etc.

619t9UOqQ4L._SY355_.jpg


I feel like the cure is learning history by reading books, because I haven't seen their arguments get factually defended with persuasive precedent or a convincing re-examination of cultural ideals, but that's like telling people to eat their vegetables.
 
G

Glass Shark

Banned
It’s indoctrination. Most public school kids in America stand up and recite a loyalty pledge to our country and flag every single day from as young as five years old, and most go their whole lives never questioning it. That’s pretty much all you need to understand.
 
I

ISOM

Member
The Kree said:
They don't like it when minorities assert their right to a dignified existence.

Not much more to it than that.
Click to expand...

Basically, it's all hypocrisy and dumb arguments that have no justification other than I don't want to see minorities protest. If so called white rights were being protested for would the reaction be like this? You already know the answer.
 
legacyzero

legacyzero

Banned
Most of what I've heard/read is "They're disrespecting our troops who fought and died for our freedom." To what I say "FUCKING AND???", as they so gleefully omit the fact of WHY they fought and died.

It all comes down to how fucking dumb you are.
 
N

Nanashrew

Banned
Glass Shark said:
It’s indoctrination. Most public school kids in America stand up and recite a loyalty pledge to our country and flag every single day from as young as five years old, and most go their whole lives never questioning it. That’s pretty much all you need to understand.
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This is true. Unless you're of a certain religion you are allowed to not stand up for it based on religious beliefs. Growing up Jehovah's Witness I never once stood up for the flag. I got looks for it. My brother got the worst of it though cause he had a very patriotic teacher and she forced him to stand. Grabbing him by the arm and making him stand for it. This was elementary school.
 
M

MidnightCowboy

Member
This always makes me laugh. Like I guess yeah our flag is a symbol of our country, but like who the fuck cares. It's a goddamn flag, why would you have any emotional connection to it lol. Obviously that dismisses a ton of context, I'm sure some people have valid reasons to feel pride when they see the flag (think veterans or Olympic athletes), but I still can't help but giggle. I mean, it's a flag.
 
T

tbm24

Member
There’s no logic to it, just a bunch of bitches who are pretending to grand stand about the flag but have no doubt shit talked the country endlessly when things don’t go their way.
 
R

RyanW

Member
My favorite is seeing friends complain about NFL players bringing politics into football by protesting the flag when politics has always been in sports by doing the opposite of that. It’s just different parties expressing their different views. Nothing all of the sudden changed.
 
T

TraBuch

Banned
My dad hates these athletes kneeling. He's guilty of the whole "gtfo if you don't like it" bullshit, but I don't think it's necessarily a race thing with him. He was all "gtfo if you don't like it" when Obama was president and republicans kept talking about how shitty this country was, too.

I just think he's overly patriotic.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
there is no perspective, its dog whistle racism wrapped in blind nationalism, on par with jingoism. There is no real argument for such things. Paramount to "if you dont like everything about how America operates even if its bad, get out"

Its the exact same shit that was propagated during the civil rights era. We have the documents to prove that. the libel that was thrown at MLK about how America's freedoms even allowed black people to exist in the condition they did at that time instead of far worse
 
X

xfactor99

Member
It depends on the person. For my dad, he is obsessively focused on the issue that the flag is a national symbol and that it is wrong for it to be disrespected for any purpose. Super traditional and deferential/respectful to authority types are like that.

When I try to point out that Kaepernick was protesting racial injustice in America, he insisted that there's no link between that and the flag and that Kaepernick should have found some other way to protest and just goes back to his original point that the flag is sacred. But that's just his personality in that he's extremely narrow-minded and I have literally never seen him change his mind on anything ever (my mom says he has not a drop of critical thinking in his blood)

He left the GOP because it was too religious and racist and has been voting Democrat for the last two elections, but he's still a conservative. Shrug, it could be worse....
 
molnizzle

molnizzle

Member
Man. Some of y'all are really out of touch.

Certain people are upset because they lost grandparents, parents, siblings, and children in wars fought under that flag. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with BLM or minorities. Hell, a very large portion of the active military isn't white. They also see it as disrespect.

I'm a veteran and I'm not bothered by it since I see it as a simple expression of free speech, but I also came back from Afghanistan alive and with all my limbs. People who weren't so lucky (or who love/d someone who wasn't so lucky) might have a different perspective.
 
O

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
I got yelled at at a job years back because I didn't bring in the flag when it was raining.
 
M

MindCollizion

Member
I believe our flag represents something greater than the current state of human life injustice and greater than the current President; every single person living in this country should respect the symbol of the country they live in.
 
T

Trakdown

Member
MidnightCowboy said:
This always makes me laugh. Like I guess yeah our flag is a symbol of our country, but like who the fuck cares. It's a goddamn flag, why would you have any emotional connection to it lol. Obviously that dismisses a ton of context, I'm sure some people have valid reasons to feel pride when they see the flag (think veterans or Olympic athletes), but I still can't help but giggle. I mean, it's a flag.
Click to expand...

I always like Bill Hicks take on this:

"Hey buddy, my daddy died for that flag."
"Really? Cause...I bought mine."

And yeah, I'm so sick of this dollar store patriotism in the form of flag worship and the national anthem. So easy to get misty eyed over a piece of cloth and talk shit about people not performing certain rituals than actually be civic minded and want your country to improve and fix its faults.
 
N

NoblesseOblige

Banned
molnizzle said:
Man. Some of y'all are really out of touch.

Certain people are upset because they lost grandparents, parents, siblings, and children in wars fought under that flag. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with BLM or minorities. Hell, a very large portion of the active military isn't white. They also see it as disrespect.

I'm a veteran and I'm not bothered by it since I see it as a simple expression of free speech, but I also came back from Afghanistan alive and with all my limbs. People who weren't so lucky (or who love/d someone who wasn't so lucky) might have a different perspective.
Click to expand...

Not having a dogmatic weird hard-on for a piece of cloth is not 'out of touch'. I have lost family to war and that did nothing but encourage my resolve to oppose war, not build my patriot boner for something that represents death to other families across the globe. If anything those who needlessly obsess with others "respecting our flag" are in need of a reality check.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
molnizzle said:
Man. Some of y'all are really out of touch.

Certain people are upset because they lost grandparents, parents, siblings, and children in wars fought under that flag. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with BLM or minorities. Hell, a very large portion of the active military isn't white. They also see it as disrespect.

I'm a veteran and I'm not bothered by it since I see it as a simple expression of free speech, but I also came back from Afghanistan alive and with all my limbs. People who weren't so lucky (or who love/d someone who wasn't so lucky) might have a different perspective.
Click to expand...

Your the one who seems out of touch. Most of the people including Trump who say this have never fought in a war. They simply want people to shut up and stop talking about things that inconvenience them, like confronting the folly of their own privileges.

THe flag means something to everyone. And people protesting by not standing for the flag to bring light to a failing of America represent America just as much as people who stand for the flag if not more so. It takes courage to point out an injustice, and is actually more American to try and fix a problem to make America better than let a problem fester
 
C

CommanderBuck

Neo Member
It's a way to dismiss the conversation without having to take responsibility(or feel guilty) about the conditions that POCs are facing. It's easier to bring up disrespect of the flag than to talk about the injustices that are going on in the US.
 
G

Goodstyle

Member
This may be controversial of me to say, but if you're a soldier who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, why should do you gain credibility on this issue? Why is your stance on the flag you and your comrades most certainly did not fight and die for mean anything? No offense, but the wars in the Middle East were cruel and pointless and the fact that you risked your lives to fight them doesn't give you a special say on racial politics in America.

TraBuch said:
My dad hates these athletes kneeling. He's guilty of the whole "gtfo if you don't like it" bullshit, but I don't think it's necessarily a race thing with him. He was all "gtfo if you don't like it" when Obama was president and republicans kept talking about how shitty this country was, too.

I just think he's overly patriotic.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to understand what patriotism means to "patriots". Does it mean never having an issue with any part of your country? Does it mean unwavering love no matter how bad things are for a certain group of people? Does it mean never caring about issues that might make other people uncomfortable?

Look, there's a lot of things people are passionate about that I could not give less of a shit for. I'm never this viscerally angry at people for expressing their stance on something even if it's critical of a thing I like.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
MindCollizion said:
I believe our flag represents something greater than the current state of human life injustice and greater than the current President; every single person living in this country should respect the symbol of the country they live in.
Click to expand...
If the country doesn't respect those people, why should they respect the country?
 
S

Slo

Member
I think to most rah-rah-AMURICA guys get offended by the protest is because it's a really shaky correlation between the National Anthem and Kaep's stated cause. It seems arbitrary and inflammatory.

He could have just as easily decided to express his protest in the form of kicking puppies, but then he'd have animal lovers upset at him instead of rednecks.
 
C

Condom

Member
My parents are the same and it's comes from close mindedness and just being a dumb little sheep following what you've been told to respect without understanding the context.
 
G

Glass Shark

Banned
molnizzle said:
Man. Some of y'all are really out of touch.

Certain people are upset because they lost grandparents, parents, siblings, and children in wars fought under that flag. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with BLM or minorities. Hell, a very large portion of the active military isn't white. They also see it as disrespect.

I'm a veteran and I'm not bothered by it since I see it as a simple expression of free speech, but I also came back from Afghanistan alive and with all my limbs. People who weren't so lucky (or who love/d someone who wasn't so lucky) might have a different perspective.
Click to expand...
I’m really sorry, but injury, loss of limbs, or even death does not automatically make a member of our military worthy of respect. Besides, conflating the military with our flag or national anthem is a complete farce anyway.
 
W

WillyFive

Member
Slo said:
I think to most rah-rah-AMURICA guys get offended by the protest is because it's a really shaky correlation between the National Anthem and Kaep's stated cause. It seems arbitrary and inflammatory.

He could have just as easily decided to express his protest in the form of kicking puppies, but then he'd have animal lovers upset at him instead of rednecks.
Click to expand...

When the primary antagonist is the President of the United States, kicking puppies will be somewhat misguided.
 
M

More_Badass

Member
My dad does the whole "it's disrespecting the country and soldiers and the veterans who died for your freedom" and the "black people do have equality, there's nothing to protest" spiels.

It's a nonsense cycle because he often says how they should be glad that they have the freedom to say what they want and not be jailed, and if they aren't grateful for that, they can just move to North Korea....yet, he gets angry when people protest about Trump or kneel during the anthem (aka being able to say and protest how they want).
 
P

phaeta

Member
Glass Shark said:
It’s indoctrination. Most public school kids in America stand up and recite a loyalty pledge to our country and flag every single day from as young as five years old, and most go their whole lives never questioning it. That’s pretty much all you need to understand.
Click to expand...

Yep. Compulsory patriotism begins early here.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
What i find most ridiculous about this whole thing is that Kaepernick didn't even do anything try hard like setting a flag on fire or ripping it up or whatever. He simply decided to not stand for the national anthem. Yet the outrage is insane.

My guess is many of those people who are angry at Colin Kaepernick applauded that priest for burning that Quran over literally everyone saying it was a bad idea

MindCollizion said:
I have not been respected by my country but I am living here and I understand that disrespecting the flag is not the correct action to take.
Click to expand...

Living in a country doesnt mean having blind ambivalence for elements of the country you feel fail its people. And you absolutely have the right to bring attention to that in a way that gets headlines
 
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