chrisPjelly
Member
Assuming it's a beefier game built from the foundation of Smash4; all returning Smash 4 characters should be already unlocked, but new skins and characters should be unlocks.
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Should the next Smash game come with all characters unlocked?
- Thread starter Deft Beck
- Start date
Thats a really fucked up attitude.
Kor of Memory
Member
Personally I very much enjoy unlockables as important as characters. It makes me feel less overwhelmed when I first turn the game on.
It also seems to encourage me to try a new character after I unlock them.
Basically, I like the idea of giving the player sort of an appetizer of characters to choose from. They'll likely gravitate to their favorite of the first 12-15 and then play one of the various modes with them. They'll beat that first mode and unlock a new character. New characters are enticing. Especially when the game makes you fight them 1v1 to earn them. It gives you a good sample of their moves to pique your interest. Their is a good chance that'll be the next character to pick for the next mode they play. Unless the character just has zero appeal at all. In which case you still have the original pool to choose from.
The cycle repeats until you run out of "obvious" methods to unlock characters. So now you start exploring parts of the game that you may not have touched otherwise. The Home Run Derby. The Break the Targets. The 100 Man Melee. So on and So forth.
All of this creates a fun gameplay loop:
If all or even most of the characters are unlocked from the start, this loop doesn't exist, and it takes away the enjoyment from exploring all aspects of the game. If everything is unlocked then it becomes an issue of pick your 2 or 3 favs, and play them a bunch in all the modes because there is nothing to encourage you to step outside your comfort zone.
That said, I perfectly understand that all unlocks readily available make tournaments easier, but lets be honest... Gamers will find a way. It obviously didn't slow down the Melee competitive scene at all.
Edit: I feel the same towards Mario Kart.
It also seems to encourage me to try a new character after I unlock them.
Basically, I like the idea of giving the player sort of an appetizer of characters to choose from. They'll likely gravitate to their favorite of the first 12-15 and then play one of the various modes with them. They'll beat that first mode and unlock a new character. New characters are enticing. Especially when the game makes you fight them 1v1 to earn them. It gives you a good sample of their moves to pique your interest. Their is a good chance that'll be the next character to pick for the next mode they play. Unless the character just has zero appeal at all. In which case you still have the original pool to choose from.
The cycle repeats until you run out of "obvious" methods to unlock characters. So now you start exploring parts of the game that you may not have touched otherwise. The Home Run Derby. The Break the Targets. The 100 Man Melee. So on and So forth.
All of this creates a fun gameplay loop:
- Pick a new character.
- Play a new mode.
- Unlock a new character.
- Repeat
If all or even most of the characters are unlocked from the start, this loop doesn't exist, and it takes away the enjoyment from exploring all aspects of the game. If everything is unlocked then it becomes an issue of pick your 2 or 3 favs, and play them a bunch in all the modes because there is nothing to encourage you to step outside your comfort zone.
That said, I perfectly understand that all unlocks readily available make tournaments easier, but lets be honest... Gamers will find a way. It obviously didn't slow down the Melee competitive scene at all.
Edit: I feel the same towards Mario Kart.
Jawmuncher
Member
Yeah, and snake
Unlocking characters is one of the reasons I play Smash. I don't play online or with friends. If you gave it away, what incentive is left to play the game to someone like me?
Because the game is fun?
a Master Ninja
Member
Having to unlock characters in a multiplayer fighting game is a relic that we can do without. Stick with unlockable costumes, keep characters, stages, modes, and anything else that impacts multiplayer gameplay unlocked from the start.
This, WWE 2K games have that option, it just makes sense.
Those who want to go through the fun of unlocking characters can do so.
Those who just want to have everything right off the bat to play with others or pros wanting to immediately train have the option of not having to waste time unlocking stuff.
Nobody loses.
I get the reason why to do it, but there is that certain magic behind being able to do a challenge and then unlock the new character by beating them up.
With that said though, in the case of a "Smash 4 for Switch" that unless if they decide to add in more characters, then it does seem like an argument that can go either way. I wouldn't care though since even if we did it in the same way as Smash 4 on Wii U, you just have to play a couple of rounds and you'll get them all unlocked. Much better than other versions where you had to play an ungodly amount of fights just to get to do one fight.
With that said though, in the case of a "Smash 4 for Switch" that unless if they decide to add in more characters, then it does seem like an argument that can go either way. I wouldn't care though since even if we did it in the same way as Smash 4 on Wii U, you just have to play a couple of rounds and you'll get them all unlocked. Much better than other versions where you had to play an ungodly amount of fights just to get to do one fight.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Give me an option yes. I only play it as a party game I don't want to spend hours unlocking fucking stages and characters before I can play it fully with friends
Inferno313
Banned
Nah, but there should be an easily-executable cheat code, or something, that can unlock everything for the fans who do want that experience, and for tourney setup.
All characters unlocked. Fuck unlocking characters, that's what the bonus stuff is for like gallery, soundtrack, trophies, etc.
I can't imagine playing Smash exclusively as a single player game. I've had so much fun playing it with friends over more than a decade that I just can't fathom this.
I don't play the game competitively. I tend to play it cooperatively and often times single player. As such, I enjoy having things to do that net me interesting rewards, like characters, stages, music. I like going through a Smash game with a friend unlocking things. Smash 4 was really disappointing to me in this regard.
I get that my experience and the way I play is not the way everyone does Smash and that having a full roster day one is better for some people, but it isn't better for me.
I get that my experience and the way I play is not the way everyone does Smash and that having a full roster day one is better for some people, but it isn't better for me.
JinjoUnchained
Member
They gotta make money somehow. I believe, in general, that it's better to monetize casual players that don't want to invest time in a game. As long as unlocking is fun and skill-based, then veteran players will go that route and won't have to pay extra.
The alternative is to break up content into episodic releases, which hits everyone's wallet equally. The key is that the unlocking process is fun; e.g. not bullshit F2P grinding designed to waste your time if you don't pay. I don't believe that Smash Bros falls into that category.
As a thought experiment, how would you have felt if, instead paying to instantly unlock Cloud and Bayonetta, that you could unlock them based upon your skills in Smash? And others had the option to pay if they didn't want to do that? That's my point.
Street Fighter V already does that is with Fight Money (I.E. You can earn DLC characters without paying a dime).
Linkstrikesback
Member
That the idea of just having it be an option menu to "unlock all characters" or a cheat code to do the same appears to never have occurred to you is pretty sad. They make their money from the full RRP game (realistically always going to be near that, as it's a mainline nintendo game) you just bought. They already got your darn money.
Nobody is asking for the later DLC characters for free in this topic, it's about whether the base game should have some of the cast locked away initially and unlockable through gameplay, or if they should all be playable from minute 1, or somewhere between the two.
JinjoUnchained
Member
We may have some misunderstanding due to generalizations. If the RRP covers the cost of producing the game and a healthy profit, then you're right. In that case there's no reason to do what I suggested.
In general, though, that's not true for many AAA games. Maybe it is for Smash, who knows? But if not, them they'll have to make money somehow. In that case, I'd rather they leave the unlocks in for the fans and make some extra money from those who can't wait. Again, assuming RRP isn't enough to turn a profit. IMO that's better than having season passes or episodic content.
So there's a precedent, good to know. Do you feel SFV pricing is exploitive and grind-y, or is it fair?
FlaygletheBagel
Banned
Nah. Half the fun of a Smash game for me is unlocking everything. I think the games would be missing something big if I can't have hidden fighters interrupt a match and square off against me one-on one. The unlock system gives a greater sense of mystery about the hidden characters and their movesets, encourages you to try out different game modes to unlock them, and offers a sense of accomplishment in completing the roster.
I was probably in the minority here but I personally didn't like how easy characters were to unlock in Smash Wii U. I definitely didn't like how hard characters were to unlock in Melee though; I think Brawl's unlock requirements were the most reasonable. But I don't really see why anyone would complain about unlocking characters in Smash Wii U; it took almost no time at all to complete the roster.
If people want to unlock everyone immediately though, the least intrusive way to do it would probably be an option in the settings menu.
I was probably in the minority here but I personally didn't like how easy characters were to unlock in Smash Wii U. I definitely didn't like how hard characters were to unlock in Melee though; I think Brawl's unlock requirements were the most reasonable. But I don't really see why anyone would complain about unlocking characters in Smash Wii U; it took almost no time at all to complete the roster.
If people want to unlock everyone immediately though, the least intrusive way to do it would probably be an option in the settings menu.
Fight Money was grindy early on, but it's somewhat less so now thanks to the 5000+ FM you get from weekly Missions & the 2000-5000 FM that watching CPT or ELEAGUE streams can net you.
That said, to compensate for the earnable characters, the premium alternate costumes are a bit on the expensive side ($4 per costume).
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
I get the sentiment, but honestly practicing against the CPU is one of the worst things one can do in fighting games. The CPU doesn't play like real people so you just learn bad habits that will get you killed online. Probably slightly less true in Smash than something like Street Fighter, but still best to just play online for practice (supplemented with training mode in games where execution is tough and requires practice).
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
No. I like the progression involved with unlocking characters.
I don't. Just have different unlockable things like skins. Things central to the gameplay shouldn't have to be unlocked. At the very least have a code to unlock them all temporarily or something. Like someone else said, it sucks when you want to have your buddies over and you don't have everything unlocked.
Vincent Grayson
Member
All fighting games should offer the ability to skip the unnecessary "progression" of unlocking characters.
You want to have other shit in there to unlock over time? Great, I'm fine with that. But fighting games should, out of the box, offer all of the actual characters.
Few things are more obnoxious than getting a new fighting game, having some friends over, and discovering you need to spend hours unlocking the rest of the characters.
You want to have other shit in there to unlock over time? Great, I'm fine with that. But fighting games should, out of the box, offer all of the actual characters.
Few things are more obnoxious than getting a new fighting game, having some friends over, and discovering you need to spend hours unlocking the rest of the characters.
This is the right answer. Colors. Costumes. Custom moves. Extra play modes.
There's plenty of other avenues for unlockables besides chars and stages.
I love unlocking characters in smash. So no.
If you fail you just play 1 multiplayer match and it triggers again.
If you fail you just play 1 multiplayer match and it triggers again.
Tarextherex
Banned
No. Unlocking stuff in all of the pre-Smash4 games made for an engaging "main quest" of some sorts. If you couldn't play with people, you could unlock things by clearing some of the various game modes. Smash4 had a lacking single player because aside from playing for a maximum of 5 minutes in a huge SSE level that was only for the 3DS version(Smash Run), every mode felt the same. Past games had much more distinct modes and steadier unlocks to give a better sense of progression.
Most arguments against this don't really matter. You want to play as your main right away? Not only this doesn't matter much in a game like Smash(every character has the same controls), but the unlocking system is very flexible, you can simply go for the mode that unlocks your character. Logistic problems for tournaments? Everyone who played enough of the game to play it competitively should have everything unlocked. If Nintendo supports the event, it's on them to provide setups with all unlockables. That problem applied mostly to some poorly organized Smash+FGC events.
Smash shouldn't conform to other competitive versus games especially when their format isn't close to be as successful. If you want to play another fighting game alone, it's the exact same grindy experience regardless of game. You pick a char, you learn mechanics and combos in training/challenge mode, you go online. Unlocking things in Smash, no matter how long it takes, makes for a much more personal and contextualized experience. If you decide to go competitive for Smash, it's because the base game satisfied you so much that you want to go beyond that. Other fighting games' modes are simply poorly designed infodumps that are a botched way of helping you become "tournament-ready" as quickly as possible. Why are Capcom games by far the biggest sellers when they have as much, or even less content than their competitors? That is due to the strength of their IP, their game being some of the most simple and intuitive ones in the genre and the size of their player base. No arcade mode? No people to play with offline? No problem, you're sure to find people to play with in the basic but effective matchmaking. That at least guarantees you a ressource to learn the game. Playing online would make you learn to beat many types of opponents. You start with button mashers, then spammers, then flowchart players, all the way to people who know what they are doing. ArcSys games though? Now they should take a page of Smash/Soul Calibur's great single-player modes when the prettiest graphics weren't enough for them to get enough new players. The ranked mode is empty and very unintuitive, you need to dig in menus to pick your character rather than getting to the char select interface. Lobbies are more active, but you don't learn anything when you stumble upon much better players. Single player? It has more content than SF but no amount of wordy tutorials or challenge modes are good enough practice to make you remember the game's many mechanics. Want to unlock the only character that doesn't require paying real money? Go through this huge cutscene that's labeled as a story mode that's still over 30 minutes even if you skip everything. The worst part? They will release a full price updated version that isn't even a downloadable patch the year after!(I know this doesn't apply to Rev2 but they pulled that shit for far too long) If you don't have an active offline community, good luck being a new player in a non-Capcom fighter when the game itself offers very little for you to play. That's why a single player mode with rewards(most meaningful ones naturally being character unlocks) matter.
Most arguments against this don't really matter. You want to play as your main right away? Not only this doesn't matter much in a game like Smash(every character has the same controls), but the unlocking system is very flexible, you can simply go for the mode that unlocks your character. Logistic problems for tournaments? Everyone who played enough of the game to play it competitively should have everything unlocked. If Nintendo supports the event, it's on them to provide setups with all unlockables. That problem applied mostly to some poorly organized Smash+FGC events.
Smash shouldn't conform to other competitive versus games especially when their format isn't close to be as successful. If you want to play another fighting game alone, it's the exact same grindy experience regardless of game. You pick a char, you learn mechanics and combos in training/challenge mode, you go online. Unlocking things in Smash, no matter how long it takes, makes for a much more personal and contextualized experience. If you decide to go competitive for Smash, it's because the base game satisfied you so much that you want to go beyond that. Other fighting games' modes are simply poorly designed infodumps that are a botched way of helping you become "tournament-ready" as quickly as possible. Why are Capcom games by far the biggest sellers when they have as much, or even less content than their competitors? That is due to the strength of their IP, their game being some of the most simple and intuitive ones in the genre and the size of their player base. No arcade mode? No people to play with offline? No problem, you're sure to find people to play with in the basic but effective matchmaking. That at least guarantees you a ressource to learn the game. Playing online would make you learn to beat many types of opponents. You start with button mashers, then spammers, then flowchart players, all the way to people who know what they are doing. ArcSys games though? Now they should take a page of Smash/Soul Calibur's great single-player modes when the prettiest graphics weren't enough for them to get enough new players. The ranked mode is empty and very unintuitive, you need to dig in menus to pick your character rather than getting to the char select interface. Lobbies are more active, but you don't learn anything when you stumble upon much better players. Single player? It has more content than SF but no amount of wordy tutorials or challenge modes are good enough practice to make you remember the game's many mechanics. Want to unlock the only character that doesn't require paying real money? Go through this huge cutscene that's labeled as a story mode that's still over 30 minutes even if you skip everything. The worst part? They will release a full price updated version that isn't even a downloadable patch the year after!(I know this doesn't apply to Rev2 but they pulled that shit for far too long) If you don't have an active offline community, good luck being a new player in a non-Capcom fighter when the game itself offers very little for you to play. That's why a single player mode with rewards(most meaningful ones naturally being character unlocks) matter.
Falchion
Member
I'd be fine if they dropped the unlock requirements, maybe they can replace it with unlocking costumes for characters that are more detailed than just the same outfit in 8 different colors. That way you have something to work towards and a reason to play as your favorite characters a lot.
Geminosity
Member
Spoken like someone who's never had multiple setups for tournaments. How this realistically works is tournie peeps will sometimes have multiple setups, one of which they'll play on themselves. This means for the other setups they have to sit down and grind characters they've already unlocked on the main setup. Perfect example of this was a soul calibur night my friend just threw recently. He'd unlocked the characters on one of his xboxs and the ps4 but I had to sit down and unlock the remaining ones on his other xbox :/
Also, you might not care you who play as, but I do. Playing undesired characters to unlock ones you want is utter crud for me. It doesn't matter that I CAN play the characters I have no interest in, forcing me to play them is making a job out of something that's supposed to be enjoyable.
If those don't matter to you, then your arguments don't matter to me
Because it's a fun and enjoyable game on its own?
If you're jobbing to CPUs; that's clearly too much power for you to handle at that time lol.
Unlocking shit is the fun of the single player part of the game to me. 'Challenger approaching' was always the most exciting part.
The way I'd set it up, you'd have a tiny initial roster with tons of stuff to unlock. But at the start screen, the game would let you know that you can unlock everything at any time by going to settings.
That way both camps would be happy. I believe other fighters have 'exhibition mode' or whatnot that unlocks everything in a similar fashion.
The way I'd set it up, you'd have a tiny initial roster with tons of stuff to unlock. But at the start screen, the game would let you know that you can unlock everything at any time by going to settings.
That way both camps would be happy. I believe other fighters have 'exhibition mode' or whatnot that unlocks everything in a similar fashion.
War Raichu
Member
Smash 4 already had issues with single player content, removing unlocks would kill it even more
it needs to be an option, though. Puyo Tetris has classic button-input cheats to unlock everything, so there's nothing stopping Smash from having it.
it needs to be an option, though. Puyo Tetris has classic button-input cheats to unlock everything, so there's nothing stopping Smash from having it.
I can sense the tears if the easy unlock is tied to amiibos xD
3 characters is ok, the rest is pure grindyness of grinding
....The fuck? This is so completely wrong. Paging ScrubQuotes.
Best way is to just have more single player content instead of using characters to pad it out. Add unlockable costumes, extra modes, boss characters (say something like Giga Bowser that is only usable in For Fun multiplayer or EX characters in Arc Sys games...Shoot add a non tourney playable Master/Crazy Hand without glitches for people to mess around with).
hydrophilic attack
Member
they will make it so you can pay $10 to unlock them immediately
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Fuck no, unlocking characters is part of the fun and the surprise of seeing who they put in.
And it only happens once then never again. Just have an additional unlock code.
It's padding for the sake of padding. Add more meaningful single player content, you can still do this without arbitrarily blocking off people's favorite characters.
Bobo Dakes
Member
I wouldn't mind having to unlock the DLC characters. Roy, Mewtwo, Lucas, Ryu, Corrin, Bayonetta and the rest.
Nightmare452
Member
But there is no surprise for Smash 4. We know all the characters before any game comes out. Unlocking them is fun, but can be tedious/time consuming for a lot of others. It has to be balanced.
I say give the option at the start. Do you want all characters unlocked from the beginning or want to unlock them yourself. Simple, everyone wins expect for the whiny elitists.
Deft Beck
Member
It's also a logistical problem for many people without hours of free time to play as a character they like.
I don't think I know anybody that has grinded Fight Money to unlock anything of substance.
That would be awful! That's why they didn't do it in Smash 4.
Tarextherex
Banned
Spoken like someone who's never had multiple setups for tournaments. How this realistically works is tournie peeps will sometimes have multiple setups, one of which they'll play on themselves. This means for the other setups they have to sit down and grind characters they've already unlocked on the main setup. Perfect example of this was a soul calibur night my friend just threw recently. He'd unlocked the characters on one of his xboxs and the ps4 but I had to sit down and unlock the remaining ones on his other xbox :/
Also, you might not care you who play as, but I do. Playing undesired characters to unlock ones you want is utter crud for me. It doesn't matter that I CAN play the characters I have no interest in, forcing me to play them is making a job out of something that's supposed to be enjoyable.
If those don't matter to you, then your arguments don't matter to me
In Smash tournaments people bring their own setups, there is never any unlocking problems because each console in from someone who already unlocked everything themselves. Simple as that. The issue you've described is when external, less informed people had to bring setups, that's when you had to unlock smashville or whatnot. This was never a popular issue during the Melee and Brawl days, only for outsiders who want to host a Smash4 tournament but don't know about things like one of the neutral stages being an unlockable.
I dunno if you bring this up on a FGC point of view but investing time on a different character really doesn't matter in Smash, this isn't some anime game were you have your hands full playing just one character. If you main Falco just go clear 100 man mode instead of doing classic mode. The unlocking system is flexible enough so you have quick and easy ways such as this one and the more "climactic" surprises. Again getting good for a tournament is a different game than playing the single player. Even if your main is the very last character you're supposed to unlock, he's supposed to be a reward for "finishing" the game. If you're impatient just finish the game right away. The thing is, playing the game that way is a much more organic way of getting acquainted with mechanics compared to the homogenised infodumps other 2D fighters have. Even if your main is behind a single player campaign's worth of content, it's still a worthwhile and rewarding experience unlike 2D fighters' in-game tutorials. You're really overdramatizing playing as your main day 1 in fucking Smash, not only a lot of top players settled on their best main much later but look at the people that had to wait for DLC to play as their prefered veteran/hype newcomer. The idea of forcing yourself to play different characters simply doesn't apply to Smash, notably due to all of them having the same controls.
Vital Tundra
Member
While I loved unlocking characters throughout the franchise, there are so many characters now that you either unlock a lot or unlock a little.
If you have to unlock a lot of characters people complain that they have to play a ton just to play the single character they want to main and what not.
If you have to unlock a few characters unlocking them seems pointless.
At this point the port has to come with all characters unlocked, and future Smash games as well. No one should be forced to unlock the characters they want to play as. You should be able to play as them immediately. Let there be other things to unlock a lot of, which there is already. There were so few characters to unlock in Smash 4 Wii U that I really didn't care at that point.
If anything there needs to be a way to instantly unlock all characters.
If you have to unlock a lot of characters people complain that they have to play a ton just to play the single character they want to main and what not.
If you have to unlock a few characters unlocking them seems pointless.
At this point the port has to come with all characters unlocked, and future Smash games as well. No one should be forced to unlock the characters they want to play as. You should be able to play as them immediately. Let there be other things to unlock a lot of, which there is already. There were so few characters to unlock in Smash 4 Wii U that I really didn't care at that point.
If anything there needs to be a way to instantly unlock all characters.
Geminosity
Member
I'm actually friends with several organisers in the scottish gaming scene so I know how it works here. You might have different experiences, but yours aren't eveyone's.. We often provide the setups for games and in addition to what I mentioned stuff sometimes breaks and needs replaced which means another trip through the grind.
You keep saying things that disagree with you don't matter so I'm inclined to just say your viewpoint doesn't matter. I mean heck, you even say 'he' for my main as if I've ever played a male character, your assumptions aren't even close to my reality and there's nothing rewarding to me about spending even a second playing characters I don't give a toss about to get to someone I actually want to learn
It's fine for people to have differing opinions and viewpoints but when you start saying dismissive stuff or passing off your own experience as the only one it kind of invalidates the chances of anyone listening to you.
they should let you use the challenge hammers on them for those that just want the characters.
that way, people who want the classic unlock method can do it and save a hammer and those who don't care get all characters right away.
completionists like to keep the hammers unused. i know some people suffered through All Star mode with all characters in hard to not use a single hammer on any challenge ( i gave up and used my hammers since that challenge was bullshit)
that way, people who want the classic unlock method can do it and save a hammer and those who don't care get all characters right away.
completionists like to keep the hammers unused. i know some people suffered through All Star mode with all characters in hard to not use a single hammer on any challenge ( i gave up and used my hammers since that challenge was bullshit)
Basileus777
Member
I actually enjoy unlocking all the characters. Unless we're talking about an enhanced rerelease of Smash WiiU, then no,
It's still an issue. See EVO with some setups having to have people quickly unlock Smashville and other stages. Sometimes sponsors bring in setups that don't have everything unlocked. Sometimes casuals provide much needed setups and want to participate in their first tourney. These are issues TOs have to deal with, and everytime you have to redo and unlock everything all over again wastes time.
It's not as big of a deal in Smash 4 compared to other fighters since everything is pretty easy to unlock, but they should honestly just implement a code at this point to unlock all characters. Do it like Rock Band with all songs where it temporarily unlocks everything so people can still have the single player progression if they want it.
(I'm speaking as a former TO and competitive Smash 4 player. And for the record I do actually like unlocking characters!...the first time)