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Late to the Crappy: KOTOR 1&2
- Thread starter Dice
- Start date
rosaceadude2112
Member
HK's a better character in 2 than he was in the first game, though I really dug the monkey's paw thing he had going on there. 'Sides, ain't no character from Kotor 1 even close to Kreia.
Weltall Zero
Member
ITT: OP finds game sub-par, defends his point by comparing it to critically acclaimed game released one generation (half a decade) later.
Yeah, I was ready to tell people how much they are blinded by nostalgia, but it actually trumps many recent releases in several important aspects.
Davey Cakes
Member
Never played KOTOR 2, but the original is one of my favorite RPGs. I probably liked it more than Mass Effect.
The game came out in 2003 and I didn't beat it until 2005, but when I played it I really enjoyed it. The opening segment in Taris really set the stage well. Oh, and Pazaak is amazing.
Took me something like 60 hours to beat. Worth the time.
The game came out in 2003 and I didn't beat it until 2005, but when I played it I really enjoyed it. The opening segment in Taris really set the stage well. Oh, and Pazaak is amazing.
Took me something like 60 hours to beat. Worth the time.
Technosteve
Banned
Can we talk about what I liked about Mass Effect 1 and hated about Mass Effect 2?
Mass Effect 1 you played a Citadel Police detective solving crimes and interacting with the populous. Mass Effect 2 was a corridor shooter.
Mass Effect 1 you played a Citadel Police detective solving crimes and interacting with the populous. Mass Effect 2 was a corridor shooter.
The problem with the station is that there is nothing to do to break up the pacing of the game. It's desolate which might be fine if it wasn't for how utterly long it is.
Let's not turn this into another ME1 vs. ME2 thread. Lord knows there are enough already.
ChimpanzeeThat
Member
So OP is basically saying that KOTOR fails at being an RPG and lauds Mass Effect?
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Okay well the non-lunch thing was delayed a couple hours.
Gameplay is very important. If you are going to stage a threat/conflict in the narrative, it ought to feel like one when the shit actually hits the fan. If it totally fails, then whatever the story wanted to make it out to be feels like a joke. Fiddling with stuff is also important to me, and I don't know what kind of JRPGs some people here think I am talking about, but in the ones I play, fiddling with stuff is very important to the tactics and success in them. For example, Megaten games make this look like a complete joke.
As for story, I guess there is nothing to be said but that I disagree with people here. I find the scenarios, interactions, and overall story to be boring. If other people simply like them, what can be said? We can try to get into specifics, but all it would amount to is "I thought that specific thing sucked" "Well I thought that specific thing was awesome" and we'd end where we started.
I see you didn't read what specifically I didn't enjoy about it. I was quite thorough in explaining my personal distaste for things despite recognizing overall extremely high quality of writing. I didn't say it's crappy like these (aside from gameplay, but everyone knows combat in P:T sucks)
Bringing up ME was a matter of two things, interesting/appropriate conversations and scenarios, and responsiveness to commands allowing synergy of attacks. Both of these can likewise be demonstrated in Baldur's Gate or whatever else you want to point to. I just used Mass Effect because it is closer to what KOTOR seemed to be going for in feeling. You can play ME like an action game, but I did not, and did not expect that from KOTOR.
Flair and presentation aren't necessary in the sense of being modern. I hoped to clue people into this perspective by naming Avernum, but that appears to have fallen flat because people were so flabbergasted by me mentioning Mass Effect in a positive light.
Gameplay is very important. If you are going to stage a threat/conflict in the narrative, it ought to feel like one when the shit actually hits the fan. If it totally fails, then whatever the story wanted to make it out to be feels like a joke. Fiddling with stuff is also important to me, and I don't know what kind of JRPGs some people here think I am talking about, but in the ones I play, fiddling with stuff is very important to the tactics and success in them. For example, Megaten games make this look like a complete joke.
As for story, I guess there is nothing to be said but that I disagree with people here. I find the scenarios, interactions, and overall story to be boring. If other people simply like them, what can be said? We can try to get into specifics, but all it would amount to is "I thought that specific thing sucked" "Well I thought that specific thing was awesome" and we'd end where we started.
Answered above. Glad you agree that the gameplay sucks, though.
If it skips the turn or does the move that was there anyway even if you fill in something different, that would explain a ton about the unresponsiveness. I'll check it out, and thank you for actually saying something useful addressing the criticisms I actually raised.
The reapers were compelling in the first game, but changeup of writers at Bioware caused their concept to change multiple times with a ton of inconsistencies until they just sucked and the story overall sucked. If they kept the main story writer from the first game it probably would have been a great trilogy. As it is, the main appeal comes with engaging individual scenarios and problems. The menial tasks which make up the heft of any WRPG don't feel so menial. Other RPGs have done them better but at least compared to KOTOR I think ME series is waaay better in this regard.
I'm 29.
There's also the fact that the writing in KotOR felt like Star Wars. Which is kind of important for a Star Wars game. KotOR 2 falls flat on its face there.
Its been a while since I've played them, but I liked them both a lot. They had their flaws. Every Obsidian and Bioware game seems to, but I dont remember having any really significant complaints. Combat wasn't thrilling, but it was fun still and I certainly didn't have the problem of my orders being ignored all the time.
The 'morality' stuff is something I dont care much about, but the same applies for any game, really. My only concern was what it did to my character's abilities, not what it meant to the story or something. I went with what I felt was useful or would get me the best result.
Sorry you didn't enjoy them OP. But yea, I think you'll be in the minority in that.
The 'morality' stuff is something I dont care much about, but the same applies for any game, really. My only concern was what it did to my character's abilities, not what it meant to the story or something. I went with what I felt was useful or would get me the best result.
Sorry you didn't enjoy them OP. But yea, I think you'll be in the minority in that.
This may be true -- I'm no Star Wars expert. But if so, then what does the fact that the writing in KotOR 2 is much better and more nuanced than in 1 tell us about Star Wars writing?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
...you had me until you compared it to Mass Effect. Seriously, the Mass Effect games are totally on the level KoToR 1 (haven't played 2 yet). Just about all that improved was voice acting and presentation so that it doesn't seem quite as silly.
Nothing we didn't already know.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
What Planescape Can Learn From Mass Effect - the perfect title for an IGN article.
"combatants attack and react simultaneously"
"these actions are presented sequentially on-screen"
"the illusion of real-time combat"
Does not compute.
Third person shooter spin-off starring Ignus.
"This is Ignus favorite shop in all of the Lower Ward!"
Thunder Monkey
Banned
There's a part of me that started cackling like mad reading this.
A point I know in my gut to be true. But the fanboy in me has trouble reconciling.
I bought wholesale into the hype for KOTOR and pretty much got an Xbox primarily to play it. I ended up hating it. Xbox would go on to become my most regretted video game hardware purchase ever, but Ninja Gaiden ultimately made up for it (to a degree).
That was certainly the last time I would buy a console for a single game :\
That was certainly the last time I would buy a console for a single game :\
HK-47 is better in 2 as well.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
If it didn't age well then it didn't age well. Some games do. Looks like this one just doesn't stand the test of time.
SneakyStephan
Banned
See, the problem here is that you have played kotor 3 4 5 6 7 8 and 9 first (mass effect games and dragon age games)
When kotor was released it was pretty novel.
I still agree though, novelty aside the game was dogshit, I always just imagined the people who like mass effect never played kotor and liked it for the novelty value, Which kind of holds up since lots of people dislike mass effect 2 and 3 and hate dragon age 2.
Bioware makes the same game again and again through the EXACT same formula , they are all shit.
When kotor was released it was pretty novel.
I still agree though, novelty aside the game was dogshit, I always just imagined the people who like mass effect never played kotor and liked it for the novelty value, Which kind of holds up since lots of people dislike mass effect 2 and 3 and hate dragon age 2.
Bioware makes the same game again and again through the EXACT same formula , they are all shit.
That Star Wars as always been about classic good versus evil pulp sci fi stories?
rosaceadude2112
Member
Indisputable proof, folks.
Hot Coldman
Banned
He also hates Pixar, folks. Grab your pitchforks!
KOTOR sits in my Steam catalogue begging to be played
Stormwatch
Member
My deck is still warm.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Not even 30? He's right, whippersnapper. ;P
Another thing is that while combat and graphics always get better with time, KOTOR and KOTOR II still stick with me because of how memorable the characters. Don't get me wrong, I loved Wrex, Mordin, Morrigan, and a lot of others from the ME and DA games, but almost every part of the KOTOR main cast is more memorable and interesting, even companions like Carth and Bastilla that a lot of people didn't like.
Not many, if any, in gaming. Period.
True, sadly true. One of the rare cases where you actually have to think before inserting Paragon or Renegade coins into a NPC.
KittyKittyBangBang
Member
Im guessing it doesnt hold up like I want it too, but when I played it shortly after launch it was magical
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Because when talking to her they give you shitty, childish conversation options no matter what and then she responds like a condescending bitch no matter what? Yeah, amazing character there.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
KOTOR changed my thoughts on RPGs forever.
You're probably right there, but to echo what Durante alluded to I'll take a better written story over something sticking to the franchise's roots if that something is supposed to have less depth or complexity to its story.
They give you binary choices like any WRPG (Mass Effect included) and Kreia rebuffs everything. She is neutral in the strictest sense, and it is beautiful because she values the person - people - and not the arbitrary moralities based around the Force.
The writers are basically saying the system is stupid and lazy and shallow.
Seems like you missed the point of the character.
publicpwnerer
Member
I thought I had the nostalgia goggles, but I easily went back last year and did a run through both. Still holds up imo.
I think it's severely enhanced by the fact that the voice acting was top notch, and everyone (Apart from the PC) is VA'd.
The D&D style combat and leveling is an acquired taste. I personally gush over making builds and planning out powerful combinations. Also, the Star Wars translation of D&D was epic.
E.g "Jedi Reflexes, +1 Save due to your force sensitivity and ability to read / predict events".
KOTOR gets overrated because it's Star Wars, it has branched conversations and it was one of the few great RPGS on the Xbox.
That's not to say it was a bad game. Just a good game with some significant flaws.
Also, the age of an RPG should not be an excuse. If an RPG is truly great, it will stand the test of time.
That's not to say it was a bad game. Just a good game with some significant flaws.
Also, the age of an RPG should not be an excuse. If an RPG is truly great, it will stand the test of time.
Singularity42
Member
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Her wisdom wasn't wisdom, and making my character too stupid to respond to her didn't make it better. Forcing interpretations of events to be stupid so she can call them stupid is not a good meta-critique, either. It's an annoying and stupid gimmick that is utterly transparent and sacrifices player experience for a political statement to the industry. Fuck that, but even if going along with it, a lot of things she says are just her own paranoia and have no barring in reality. Nothing but her being a bitch to everyone.
And her reasons for being a bitch don't make her a deep character, just a stupid one who is bad at interpreting difficult realities she has faced and how to handle them.
So that would be three years after release. Gotcha.
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