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Dremark · Mar 23, 2017

excelsiorlef said:
And frankly he teeters on emotionally abusive a lot.

I'm not disagreeing, but I'm just wondering exactly what you mean by that. For what it's worth I've only seen a few of the guy's videos, but I'd honestly agree that he doesn't seem to ever give a strong opinion and I largely viewed what I did see from him as a waste of time, primarily for that reason.

RM8 said:
And I don't think I've ever watched a JonTron video.

His videos are actually quite funny. He's a pretty talented guy and I could have seen him go far if things had been different.

Maybe he still will, it's really odd that his numbers don't seem to have changed much as a result of this. Maybe the word is not getting out much, I don't think his "statement" was listed on his channel and he didn't make any statements like he did in the "debate" on any of his videos.

excelsiorlef · Mar 23, 2017

Dremark said:
I'm not disagreeing, but I'm just wondering exactly what you mean by that. For what it's worth I've only seen a few of the guy's videos, but I'd honestly agree that he doesn't seem to ever give a strong opinion and I largely viewed what I did see from him as a waste of time, primarily for that reason.

His behavior here during GG was extremely emotionally abusive

His entire centrist shtick puts all the onus on the oppressed to reach out to their oppressors and shames us if we don't. You'll notice he talks about wanting everyone to come together but his criticism for that lack of unity is always on the victims of racism and not the racists....

It's bullshit and it's designated to make the oppressed out to be the bad guys.

Dremark · Mar 23, 2017

Nanashrew said:
Boogie has this strong desire to appease others to appease himself so it's in his own self preservation he doesn't want to offend anyone. But because of this, he has no stance on hardline issues, he often shows no moral code or ethics because he wants to remain neutral and is terrified of possible backlash.

I can't really respect that tbh. For one thing if you're not going to take a side ever your statements are basically meaningless and you're just noise. The other thing is that even other people who have difficulty taking heat are still willing to put themselves on the line and deal with the consequences.

I'm not sure how well he's known here but Sky Williams takes a lot of the criticism he gets to heart, and it shows. When he makes a statement about something and takes fire for it, you can tell it tears him to shreds to get the type of feedback he gets for it.

If it becomes a big enough issue he'll put out a detailed statement explaining his opinion in more detail, but he still sticks to his guns unless someone convinces him otherwise (I actually view the fact he'll listen to arguments against him and consider other opinions a plus). I don't always agree with him, but I respect him because he's real and says what he thinks is right.

Nanashrew · Mar 23, 2017

excelsiorlef said:
His behavior here during GG was extremely emotionally abusive

His entire centrist shtick puts all the onus on the oppressed to reach out to their oppressors and shames us if we don't. You'll notice he talks about wanting everyone to come together but his criticism for that lack of unity is always on the victims of racism and not the racists....

It's bullshit and it's designated to make the oppressed out to be the bad guys.

And he was banned for that. He also believes he was banned for being too moderate for GAF.

-Mutsukki- · Mar 23, 2017

Dremark said:
If Arin had such a big issue with Jon I don't think he would have collaborated with him after the split.

I'm not saying Arin shares or condoned his beliefs but concluding that he split from him because of them is kind of baseless considering he was on Jon's show back when he was doing the Star Wars videos maybe a year or so back.

I think it's safe to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't know it was like this though.

Eh, I don't think that really invalidates anything. He could have just let bygones be bygones (since Jon probably invited him). But you still see kind of a great deal of distance between them, Arin has yet to invite Jon for a Guest Grumps (The perfect opportunity has presented itself more than once) and he doesn't seem to keep in touch with him after that event.

I'm just trying to make sense of things, Jon has lost some friends these past years (PBG being one of the cases)

Dremark · Mar 23, 2017

-Mutsukki- said:
Eh, I don't think that really invalidates anything. He could have just let bygones be bygones (since Jon probably invited him). But you still see kind of a great deal of distance between them, Arin has yet to invite Jon for a Guest Grumps (The perfect opportunity has presented itself more than once) and he doesn't seem to keep in touch with him after that event.

I'm just trying to make sense of things, Jon has lost some friends these past years (PBG being one of the cases)

I'll freely admit I don't know a lot about the split, honestly I wouldn't even know who Arin is if I hadn't followed Jon. However if he knew what types of opinions Jon had and wanted to disassociate himself from him it doesn't really make any sense for him to appear on Jon's show.

They probably had some sort of a falling out and eventually put it aside, but I really doubt it's related to this issue as it's not exactly something most would "let bygones be bygones" on as it doesn't really make any sense.

My take on it is basically this: They split up for some reason, eventually at least let it go, Arin probably didn't know about Jon's views on this subject and I don't think there's any evidence that he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt on.

Granted Arin could go full blown neo Nazi tomorrow, it doesn't make a lot of sense to just assume that he is one because he didn't totally cut someone off who had those type of views in private. It doesn't really make sense to assume he knew when they split either so I think the most logical assumption is that he didn't know.

Deleted member 10571 · Mar 23, 2017

I'm sure we'll get the whole story behind the GG split eventually, but I wouldn't put too much politically charged stuff into it by now. Maybe Arin just shrugged Jon's idiotic "jokes" off as being ill-timed jokes, maybe he's secretly not too far away from him, perspective-wise. We don't know, but - as usual - things will come out in the internet age. Someone will talk about it.

We see more and more Youtubers and personalities veer to the racist/misogynist/idiotic side of things day and day, and this surely won't be the last one, I'd take bets on that.

Dremark · Mar 23, 2017

Bufbaf said:
We see more and more Youtubers and personalities veer to the racist/misogynist/idiotic side of things day and day, and this surely won't be the last one, I'd take bets on that.

We should do a GAF deadpool on which gaming YouTuber/Streamer will come out as a racist or pull a Maximilian next.

Charamiwa · Mar 23, 2017

Boogie tries so damn hard to be "the voice of reason" it's getting really annoying. I used to enjoy what I thought was a reasonable dude that wouldn't say dumb things, but it has gotten ridiculous. Everytime there was drama on youtube he would do a pointless video saying absolutely nothing but banalities. During the elections last year he wouldn't say anything of substance, and of course now he can't mention JonTron without trying to find a middle ground that has absolutely no reason to exist.

This has gotten ridiculous. He's so predictable now, and really has nothing to say. Not only is it morally questionnable, but also simply boring.

nel e nel · Mar 23, 2017

chekhonte said:
I wonder how he feels about entitlement programs because he's going to need them after this.

Also how is it that people who's career is based on being an internet personality don't avoid these topics like the plague? I don't agree with being xenophobic and isolationist but I understand that people hold those values but jesus man, how can you not know that it's suicide to bring them up.

Cyanity said:
Probably because he doesn't think his views are all that extreme. People like Jontron tend to surround themselves with like-minded content, which can completely change someone's moral compass.

Partly the bubble, but also being a younger generation that has more or less grown up with social media, so their relationship to privacy is a lot different than folks who came of age pre-Friendster.

CannonFodder52 · Mar 23, 2017

Bufbaf said:
I'm sure we'll get the whole story behind the GG split eventually, but I wouldn't put too much politically charged stuff into it by now. Maybe Arin just shrugged Jon's idiotic "jokes" off as being ill-timed jokes, maybe he's secretly not too far away from him, perspective-wise. We don't know, but - as usual - things will come out in the internet age. Someone will talk about it.

We see more and more Youtubers and personalities veer to the racist/misogynist/idiotic side of things day and day, and this surely won't be the last one, I'd take bets on that.

I don't watch gamegrumps but heard some right wing folks clamoring that Arin's wife is extremely left leaning. That means very little coming from those guys. But I'd say there's probably a pretty negligible chance Arin shares any the viewpoints of Jontron.

Deleted member 10571 · Mar 23, 2017

CannonFodder52 said:
I don't watch gamegrumps but heard some right wing folks clamoring that Arin's wife is an extremely left leaning. That means very little coming from those guys. But I'd say there's probably a pretty negligible chance Arin shares any the viewpoints of Jontron.

I think so too, but at this point I'm being generally suspicious of everyone who's trying that hard to avoid positioning himself in the current climate. It may be silly but that's where I ended up.

Admiral Woofington · Mar 23, 2017

CannonFodder52 said:
I don't watch gamegrumps but heard some right wing folks clamoring that Arin's wife is an extremely left leaning. That means very little coming from those guys. But I'd say there's probably a pretty negligible chance Arin shares any the viewpoints of Jontron.

I've heard enough of Jon and suzy not getting along to the point I can see it. Ultimately it's true that theyve had plenty of chances to invite him over, but didn't. And I think the star wars episode was in a period where they tried to reconnect again, but realized that what they had couldn't be regained so they drifted apart once more.

Lanrutcon · Mar 23, 2017

CannonFodder52 said:
I don't watch gamegrumps but heard some right wing folks clamoring that Arin's wife is an extremely left leaning. That means very little coming from those guys. But I'd say there's probably a pretty negligible chance Arin shares any the viewpoints of Jontron.

Pretty sure the Grumps crew are left as all hell. The conversations Arin and Dan have had are either an incredibly well staged cover...or they're good peeps.

Cerium · Mar 23, 2017

So the Yooka-Laylee thread has been pretty understanding and supportive in trying to get a response from Playtonic about JonTron's participation in the game. There's some debate about what if anything should be done if his voice acting is not removed, but everyone agrees that it would be good to get a statement from Playtonic about the issue. One poster claims he has seen Jon's name in the credits; I've asked for proof but I don't think he's been back online since. The only video of the credits I can find online is a three minute segment listing the Kickstarter backers.

Several of us have tweeted at Playtonic's twitter account requesting clarification and comment.

I think it might help if more people tweeted at them.

tci · Mar 23, 2017

Currently listening to the Destiny/Jon Tron interview. This man is delusional. Ended my sub to him, and will not support him anymore. Sad to see a man I actually enjoyed content of be such a racist and have such views.

Hope we get a comment from Playtonic soon. I don't think they should stay silent.

kitchenmotors · Mar 23, 2017

Admiral Woofington said:
I've heard enough of Jon and suzy not getting along to the point I can see it. Ultimately it's true that theyve had plenty of chances to invite him over, but didn't. And I think the star wars episode was in a period where they tried to reconnect again, but realized that what they had couldn't be regained so they drifted apart once more.

Which is for the best. I've never liked Jon, he just always come off as a sleazy ball to me. Game grumps is better without him.

Dremark · Mar 23, 2017

tci said:
Paytonic

Typo or Freudian slip?

DrBo42 · Mar 23, 2017

GankzyMcfly said:
This is exactly why ive never liked boogie and cant sit through more then a few seconds of his videos. Dude does everything humnanly possible to toe the neutral line and appeal to everybody while never actually taking a firm position of his own. I honestly feel like hes never actually expressed his own beliefs because as you pointed out the guys a coward.

Boogie just seems like he's nice to a fault. And whatever experience he had with people coming after him completely stripped him of any teeth in matters like this. Coward might be a bit tough. I can understand him not wanting to get involved BUT he's actively making videos on this shit so I'm not sure what he's trying to accomplish.

AndersK · Mar 23, 2017

DrBo42 said:
Boogie just seems like he's nice to a fault. And whatever experience he had with people coming after him completely stripped him of any teeth in matters like this. Coward might be a bit tough. I can understand him not wanting to get involved BUT he's actively making videos on this shit so I'm not sure what he's trying to accomplish.

Thats my take too. Pre-account suicide i distinctly remember him advocating that we should lay off "gamers" because "we're all just gamers" and we should be united. How this works in terms of being pro-GG i dont really know. very predictable.

Zakalwe · Mar 23, 2017

Crimson_Echidna said:
Like both JonTron's reaction and the defense of him is something I could see reasonable coming from a kid or a teenager. The whole "He's just dumb, he doesn't know any better" completely falls apart when you remember the dude is fucking 27. He's long past the emotional development stage where you can just write off his actions as "well, he's just going through a phase."

That developmental stage is highly dependent on your environment and experiences, while he's had the opportunity to do his own research and make up his own mind, it's very possible he's had his development stunted by his immediate environment and influences.

I'm not making excuses for him, just saying this idea that the development stage only exists during a certain period of our growth isn't correct.

I've met plenty of adults with child-like reasoning skills, and plenty of younger people who put most adults to shame.

How About No · Mar 23, 2017

Nanashrew said:
And he was banned for that. He also believes he was banned for being too moderate for GAF.

lol

Extremist moderates need to chill

hodgy100 · Mar 23, 2017

This breed of "moderates" appear to actually be people that are either ignorant to the topic at hand or the topic doesn't effect them so they can afford to take a "moderate" stance on it :/

SlipperyFishes · Mar 23, 2017

Dremark said:
Maybe he still will, it's really odd that his numbers don't seem to have changed much as a result of this. Maybe the word is not getting out much, I don't think his "statement" was listed on his channel and he didn't make any statements like he did in the "debate" on any of his videos.

I think a lot of the losses in subscriptions were offset from new subs from gators who suddenly found an ally in their nationalist fight against diversity.

Vincent Grayson · Mar 23, 2017

hodgy100 said:
This breed of "moderates" appear to actually be people that are either ignorant to the topic at hand or the topic doesn't effect them so they can afford to take a "moderate" stance on it :/

The bolded bit covers almost assuredly a huge portion of "both sides are bad" crowd. It's easy to take no stance on things when they don't have any effect on your life and you lack the empathy necessary to understand that it does fuck with other people's lives.

Dremark · Mar 23, 2017

SlipperyFishes said:
I think a lot of the losses in subscriptions were offset from new subs from gators who suddenly found an ally in their nationalist fight against diversity.

Does not change my statement.

Messofanego · Mar 23, 2017

Cerium said:
So the Yooka-Laylee thread has been pretty understanding and supportive in trying to get a response from Playtonic about JonTron's participation in the game. There's some debate about what if anything should be done if his voice acting is not removed, but everyone agrees that it would be good to get a statement from Playtonic about the issue. One poster claims he has seen Jon's name in the credits; I've asked for proof but I don't think he's been back online since. The only video of the credits I can find online is a three minute segment listing the Kickstarter backers.

Several of us have tweeted at Playtonic's twitter account requesting clarification and comment.

I think it might help if more people tweeted at them.

Hopefully they speak up on this. The Playtonic people seem like nice people from having talked to them.

Amneisac · Mar 23, 2017

Admittedly, I haven't watched TB's video, but from what people are saying here it sounds like he's overthinking this trying to appear like he's taking some kind of intellectual high road. Sure, people have the choice to separate a creator's personal views from his/her work, but they don't have to.

Jontron shouldn't go to prison for his comments, and no one has the right to physically attack him for his comments. Those types of protections are worth defending, but I really don't understand why anyone feels the need to defend his "work" as if everyone has to accept it independently from the comments he has made publicly. Everyone has the right the not watch his youtube videos just the same as he has the right to make these comments.

LionPride · Mar 23, 2017

hodgy100 said:
This breed of "moderates" appear to actually be people that are either ignorant to the topic at hand or the topic doesn't effect them so they can afford to take a "moderate" stance on it :/

Hint. It's the second one

Dremark · Mar 23, 2017

Amneisac said:
Admittedly, I haven't watched TB's video, but from what people are saying here it sounds like he's overthinking this trying to appear like he's taking some kind of intellectual high road. Sure, people have the choice to separate a creator's personal views from his/her work, but they don't have to.

Jontron shouldn't go to prison for his comments, and no one has the right to physically attack him for his comments. Those types of protections are worth defending, but I really don't understand why anyone feels the need to defend his "work" as if everyone has to accept it independently from the comments he has made publicly. Everyone has the right the not watch his youtube videos just the same as he has the right to make these comments.

Yeah, the guy has the right to say whatever he wants. However the flipside is that people also have the right to criticize him, unfollow him, unsubscribe from him and pressure his business partners to disassociate from him.

Amneisac · Mar 23, 2017

Dremark said:
Yeah, the guy has the right to say whatever he wants. However the flipside is that people also have the right to criticize him, unfollow him, unsubscribe from him and pressure his business partners to disassociate from him.

You'd think it's an obvious point, but it really seems like people having a hard time understand it lately.

Zakalwe · Mar 23, 2017

LionPride said:
Hint. It's the second one

It's definitely both. Ignorance is what drives a lot of the bigoted thinking after all.

PtM · Mar 23, 2017

Bufbaf said:
I'm sure we'll get the whole story behind the GG split eventually, but I wouldn't put too much politically charged stuff into it by now. Maybe Arin just shrugged Jon's idiotic "jokes" off as being ill-timed jokes, maybe he's secretly not too far away from him, perspective-wise. We don't know, but - as usual - things will come out in the internet age. Someone will talk about it.

We see more and more Youtubers and personalities veer to the racist/misogynist/idiotic side of things day and day, and this surely won't be the last one, I'd take bets on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzE0LWd5SmM&t=4m20s

MrMysterio · Mar 23, 2017

There's also a good amount of gaslighting going on when "moderates" enter the scene - not saying that this applies to all of them, it's just a very common tactic to employ.

I found it helpful to refer to people who are defending racism, sexism, etc in the name of "reasonable reactions" as enablers.

Cyanity · Mar 23, 2017

Cerium said:
So the Yooka-Laylee thread has been pretty understanding and supportive in trying to get a response from Playtonic about JonTron's participation in the game. There's some debate about what if anything should be done if his voice acting is not removed, but everyone agrees that it would be good to get a statement from Playtonic about the issue. One poster claims he has seen Jon's name in the credits; I've asked for proof but I don't think he's been back online since. The only video of the credits I can find online is a three minute segment listing the Kickstarter backers.

Several of us have tweeted at Playtonic's twitter account requesting clarification and comment.

I think it might help if more people tweeted at them.

Is it really that big of a deal if JT voiced a character in a game where "talking" consists entirely of various grunting sounds?

Messofanego · Mar 23, 2017

Cyanity said:
Is it really that big of a deal if JT voiced a character in a game where "talking" consists entirely of various grunting sounds?

It's a big deal that Jontron is a white supremacist and he voices a character in the game. End of. Whether or not the role is tiny or big, whether he speaks in english or gibberish. If you're ok with a white supremacist being a voice in your game, just say it. White supremacy isn't a differing political opinion either, it's hate speech. Just like you wouldn't have a hate speech spewing radical Islamic cleric voice a character in something no matter if he is grunting gibberish.

joe2187 · Mar 23, 2017

MrMysterio said:
There's also a good amount of gaslighting going on when "moderates" enter the scene - not saying that this applies to all of them, it's just a very common tactic to employ.

I found it helpful to refer to people who are defending racism, sexism, etc in the name of "reasonable reactions" as enablers.

That was the entire tactic and strategy of Trumps Campaign, It's where the whole "Well they're both bad...but her emails tho...."

joedick · Mar 23, 2017

Cyanity said:
Is it really that big of a deal if JT voiced a character in a game where "talking" consists entirely of various grunting sounds?

It should be a big deal even if he didn't have the opinions that he has. Doesn't he make a living commenting on games? I know he's more entertainer than journalist, but still. I somehow doubt gamergaters are gonna get worked up over this one.

Cleve · Mar 23, 2017

Cyanity said:
Is it really that big of a deal if JT voiced a character in a game where "talking" consists entirely of various grunting sounds?

It's kind of a big deal to me if his name is in the credits. Guy's outed himself as a piece of shit, and quadrupled down on it. I'd prefer to not support products that promote him.

EatinOlives · Mar 23, 2017

Cyanity said:
Is it really that big of a deal if JT voiced a character in a game where "talking" consists entirely of various grunting sounds?

His involvement in any capacity makes people uncomfortable, not that hard to understand.

superNESjoe · Mar 23, 2017

Cleve said:
It's kind of a big deal to me if his name is in the credits. Guy's outed himself as a piece of shit, and quadrupled down on it. I'd prefer to not support products that promote him.

Then don't buy the game if it matters that much to you. You have that right.

EatinOlives · Mar 23, 2017

superNESjoe said:
Then don't buy the game if it matters that much to you. You have that right.

So are people not allowed to ask Playtonic to make that change, or what are you arguing for here?

clemso · Mar 23, 2017

After the debate with Destiny, I really hoped he would get it. That he'd think about what he had said. But no. Nothing. And during that talk with him he didn't even agree to ONE single thing Destiny had said, which was all logical and made sense. But no. He didn't even had any reasonable counter point to him, just some alt right rethoric he repeated like a puppet.
I wanted to give him a chance, since I watched the guy since he was just some kid with his parrot who loved old video games. And then it grew bigger and bigger and suddenly he thought he was an expert on politics. That was the final straw for me. Goodbye JonTron. Maybe some day you'll get it. Hopefully.

APF · Mar 23, 2017

When you include someone like JT in a game it's largely to capitalize on his rep and his audience; speaking out against this is 100% legitimate when that person is now infamous for racist garbage.

L Thammy · Mar 23, 2017

I wonder how expensive the voice acting in Yooka Laylee is? I would imagine that the grunting thing wouldn't be done if it wasn't a lot cheaper than "proper" voice acting. I mean, it's a throwback to a time where voice samples were a much bigger deal and were often memetic by virtue of existing.

Replacing JonTron's voice isn't going to be free, but what I mean is that it's probably a lot cheaper if it's just grunting.

superNESjoe · Mar 23, 2017

EatinOlives said:
So are people not allowed to ask Playtonic to make that change, or what are you arguing for here?

Don't put words in my mouth. I meant exactly what I said. If someone is upset and doesn't like Jontron so much that they don't want to support this game, then they can not buy the game. If they complain or voice it and Playtonic doesn't remove his voice, that is their choice too. You can then not buy the game. It doesn't need to be bigger or more "controversial" than that.

PhilipDoesMatter · Mar 23, 2017

What an idiot. The US is becoming super radical because of ignorant people like him.

bmcphail2008 · Mar 23, 2017

superNESjoe said:
Don't put words in my mouth. I meant exactly what I said. If someone is upset and doesn't like Jontron so much that they don't want to support this game, then they can not buy the game. If they complain or voice it and Playtonic doesn't remove his voice, that is their choice too. You can then not buy the game. It doesn't need to be bigger or more "controversial" than that.

Some of us backed the game on Kickstarter. How would you suggest we go about not "buying" the game when we already contributed money to help it get created?

EatinOlives · Mar 23, 2017

superNESjoe said:
Don't put words in my mouth. I meant exactly what I said. If someone is upset and doesn't like Jontron so much that they don't want to support this game, then they can not buy the game. If they complain or voice it and Playtonic doesn't remove his voice, that is their choice too. You can then not buy the game. It doesn't need to be bigger or more "controversial" than that.

Yeah and people may choose to not buy the game over it, what then? Conversation over? No more controversy?

Dude who was a minor guest voice was recently outed as a racist, people are asking them to consider removing him. They may or may not do it. What about this is too "big" a controversy in your arbitrary definition of such? What do you tell people who already backed the game years ago?

GankzyMcfly · Mar 23, 2017

Messofanego said:
It's a big deal that Jontron is a white supremacist and he voices a character in the game. End of. Whether or not the role is tiny or big, whether he speaks in english or gibberish. If you're ok with a white supremacist being a voice in your game, just say it. White supremacy isn't a differing political opinion either, it's hate speech. Just like you wouldn't have a hate speech spewing radical Islamic cleric voice a character in something no matter if he is grunting gibberish.

APF said:
When you include someone like JT in a game it's largely to capitalize on his rep and his audience; speaking out against this is 100% legitimate when that person is now infamous for racist garbage.

Basically everything that needs to be said, just popping back into this thread and seeing JT voiced a character in a game had me scrolling through previous posts in order to find out what game it was so i could assure myself that i wasnt supporting it in any capacity (assuming they don't remove the voice work in which case im back on bored). As far as him not being in the credits as a donator, not sure if playtonic can do that unless they can refund his donation, something i would seriously consider and could/would potentially be a phenomenal message from the gaming community

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