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empty vessel · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
This is nonsense. The law distinguishes between premeditated murder and impulsive murder for a reason. A home invasion often requires careful planning to carry out. It's not like most robbers randomly pick a home without consideration for time of day or whether the owners are home. Why? Because they don't want to get caught. Why? Because they go to jail. So? Jail isn't fun. Take a look at the three strikes laws. For the third strike, people know the consequences plateau (i.e. they're screwed whether it's a candy bar or a bank robbery) and therefore usually go for broke.

Your views on crime are fairly ignorant. Most home invasions aren't planned at all. Nor are most murders (which is irrelevant to whether it is legally murder, contrary to your misimpression). Nor are most robberies. You watch too much television.

Jenga said:
talk about the value of liberty to a starving homeless man who gets access to a nice conditioned room with television, access to a gym and food if he gets convicted and gets sent there

That homeless man is living in a shitty society. In that case, the society is the problem, not the jail.

Orayn said:
I propose we continue to ignore the fact that the pictures in the OP post aren't of a prison and carry on with armchair criminology-GAF.

It wouldn't affect my position.

Slavik81 · Mar 29, 2011

Vilam said:
It works great for those who made a foolish mistake and learned from their experience. Of course it entirely depends on the type of crime we're talking about. Many simply don't deserve to be reformed and should be kept away from society for everyone's good.

You want to ensure that people who were once unruly citizens remain unruly? How is that in anyone's best interest?

I could understand not believing that they could be reformed. But the idea that they shouldn't be is something I haven't encountered before.

agrajag · Mar 29, 2011

damn, those prisoners live better than I do

Arde5643 · Mar 29, 2011

Vilam said:
It works great for those who made a foolish mistake and learned from their experience. Of course it entirely depends on the type of crime we're talking about. Many simply don't deserve to be reformed and should be kept away from society for everyone's good.

Don't they usually get worse here in US where most often they become repeat criminals since not only don't they get education/therapy, they actually get disbarred from almost any normal employment if they even have a slight history of prison time?

Basically, once you're imprisoned, your chance of returning to normal life is very low especially if you're not well connected to normal people outside prison.

empty vessel · Mar 29, 2011

Slavik81 said:
You want to ensure that people who were once unruly citizens remain unruly? How is that in anyone's best interest?

I could understand not believing that they could be reformed. But the idea that they shouldn't be is something I haven't encountered before.

He thinks satisfying very base emotions is more important than solving problems and enjoying a better tomorrow. It's a highly dysfunctional view.

Corky · Mar 29, 2011

Slavik81 said:
I could understand not believing that they could be reformed. But the idea that they shouldn't be is something I haven't encountered before.

Vilam · Mar 29, 2011

Slavik81 said:
You want to ensure that people who were once unruly citizens remain unruly? How is that in anyone's best interest?

I could understand not believing that they could be reformed. But the idea that they shouldn't be is something I haven't encountered before.

People on here seem to believe that you can and should be reformed for anything. In extreme crimes I simply don't believe that to be true on either count. And for other lesser crimes, even those who can be reformed only should be once they have suffered the punishment fitting their crime. When you fuck up in life there should be consequences.

nyong · Mar 29, 2011

empty vessel said:
Your views on crime are fairly ignorant. Most home invasions aren't planned at all

Statistically most burglaries go unpunished. I'd love to see your source which argues that most burglars just wing it with no consideration to getting caught in the act and the fact that most go unpunished, because they don't get caught, is only incidental.

Pandaman · Mar 29, 2011

Slavik81 said:
You want to ensure that people who were once unruly citizens remain unruly? How is that in anyone's best interest?

I could understand not believing that they could be reformed. But the idea that they shouldn't be is something I haven't encountered before.

alot of people think revenge is more important than justice.

Rapstah · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
Statistically most burglaries go unpunished. I'd love to see your source which argues that most burglars just wing it with no consideration to getting caught in the act and the fact that most go unpunished, because they don't get caught, is only incidental.

So home break-ins aren't solved because the burglars don't expect to get caught?

Slavik81 · Mar 29, 2011

Rapstah said:
So home break-ins aren't solved because the burglars don't expect to get caught?

My understanding of his argument was that because most burglaries are unsolved, criminals must put a lot of thought and planning into how they will evade the authorities.

nyong said:
Statistically most burglaries go unpunished. I'd love to see your source which argues that most burglars just wing it with no consideration to getting caught in the act and the fact that most go unpunished, because they don't get caught, is only incidental.

I don't think most burglaries are seriously investigated. They're pretty much only going to be caught if they were caught in the act, or there was any obvious evidence of the perpetrator left behind (like clear security footage).

I'd suspect that most are crimes of opportunity. Someone leaves a door unlocked and thieves seize on the chance. But I certainly don't have any evidence to support my conjecture.

nyong · Mar 29, 2011

Rapstah said:
So home break-ins aren't solved because the burglars don't expect to get caught?

Because they take active steps towards not getting caught. Also note that quite a few of them are serial burglars. Unless Lady Luck is on their side, they know what they're doing.

Phoenician_Viking · Mar 29, 2011

Vilam said:
People on here seem to believe that you can and should be reformed for anything. In extreme crimes I simply don't believe that to be true on either count. And for other lesser crimes, even those who can be reformed only should be once they have suffered the punishment fitting their crime.When you fuck up in life there should be consequences.

What the fuck are you talking about?
Who the hell are you to decide how much punishment people get. Taking away freedom from people is punishment enough. If a thief was sentenced 2 years to jail, that means he deserved 2 years. After he spends the 2 years he is a free man, and he paid his debt to society. He deserves another chance to start a new life. That is how you reform prisoners, instead of becoming repeated offenders. It is better alternative than giving harsh judgement, and treat people like crap.
There are consequences since people who commit crimes go to jail.

Death Dealer · Mar 29, 2011

empty vessel said:
Your views on crime are fairly ignorant. Most home invasions aren't planned at all.

They're certainly premeditated. How many people are out knocking on doors selling Amway or girl scout cookies, and all of a sudden decide to barge in and tie up the home's occupants ?

Orayn · Mar 29, 2011

Pandaman said:
alot of people think revenge is more important than justice.

Very true. What scares the Bejesus out of me is when people put together increasingly elaborate arguments to defend a position that's antithetical to, y'know, civilized society.

Pre · Mar 29, 2011

The first job of the justice system should be punishing law-breakers. When you break the law and fuck up your life as well as the lives of others, you should first be punished. Life has consequences.

I can understand rehabilitating those who commit relatively minor crimes, but in extreme cases - murder, rape, etc. - society has to impose a stiff penalty as punishment and also as a deterrent to others.

As far as I'm concerned, if you take someone's life (except in cases of self-defense or defense of others), your rights as a member of society should be revoked.

Simplet · Mar 29, 2011

Vilam said:
Did the dog do something to deserve that punishment?

As most of the rest of humanity, you don't understand prison. Prison is not a "punishment", society has no legitimacy dealing out punishment. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What prison is, is both a deterrent, ie a way of discouraging crimes from being committed in the future, and a tool to break the cycle of vendetta and eye-for-an-eye solutions (state monopoly on legitimate violence).

nyong · Mar 29, 2011

I think that everyone can agree that part of the prison system's role is to punish offenders. What constitutes punishment is an open question, though. Is having your freedom revoked enough? Most parents don't ground their kid to their room with a PS3, an HDTV, a computer, and allow a conjugal visit by the girlfriend, while afterwards mum brings up a nice cold glass of lemonade so they can cool off after doing the deed. There's an arbitrary line drawn somewhere. Personally, I don't think that someone who commits murder by stabbing their girlfriend 178 times with a pair of safety scissors should be sent to what looks like a luxury resort to spend his days in what amounts to a retirement home. There should be some degree of discomfort beyond confinement.

ConfusingJazz · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
I think that everyone can agree that part of the prison system's role is to punish offenders.

And you're contradicted in the post above yours. (I know, not your fault)

Pre · Mar 29, 2011

Simplet said:
As most of the rest of humanity, you don't understand prison. Prison is not a "punishment", society has no legitimacy dealing out punishment. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What prison is, is both a deterrent, ie a way of discouraging crimes from being committed in the future, and a tool to break the cycle of vendetta and eye-for-an-eye solutions (state monopoly on legitimate violence).

The penalties for committing crimes are there as a deterrent... because going to prison is a punishment. The threat of punishment is the deterrent.

Fjolle · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
I think that everyone can agree that part of the prison system's role is to punish offenders. What constitutes punishment is an open question, though. Is having your freedom revoked enough? Most parents don't ground their kid to their room with a PS3, an HDTV, a computer, and allow a conjugal visit by the girlfriend, while afterwards mum brings up a nice cold glass of lemonade so they can cool off after doing the deed. There's an arbitrary line drawn somewhere. Personally, I don't think that someone who commits murder by stabbing their girlfriend 178 times with a pair of safety scissors should be sent to what looks like a luxury resort to spend his days in what amounts to a retirement home. There should be some degree of discomfort beyond confinement.

Kids aren't people.

nyong · Mar 29, 2011

Simplet said:
Prison is not a "punishment", society has no legitimacy dealing out punishment.

A prison is a place in which people are physically confined and, usually, deprived of a range of personal freedoms. Imprisonment or incarceration is a legal penalty that may be imposed by the state for the commission of a crime. Other terms are penitentiary, correctional facility, remand center, detention center and gaol (or jail).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison

Clicking on penalty leads to:

Punishment is the authoritative imposition of something negative or unpleasant on a person or animal in response to behavior deemed wrong by an individual or group. The authority may be either a group or a single person, and punishment may be carried out formally under a system of law or informally in other kinds of social settings such as within a family. Negative consequences that are not authorized or that are administered without a breach of rules are not considered to be punishment as defined here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment

J-Rod · Mar 29, 2011

This looks like it would be a significant upgrade in lifestyle for many people, and I disagree that those who have harmed another person and/or society should be rewarded with such as a response for their deeds.

Kalnos · Mar 29, 2011

Fjolle said:
Kids aren't people.

You're correct.

empty vessel · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
Statistically most burglaries go unpunished. I'd love to see your source which argues that most burglars just wing it with no consideration to getting caught in the act and the fact that most go unpunished, because they don't get caught, is only incidental.

I don't understand why you think not getting caught has a strong relationship with planning. Most crimes, especially property crimes, are not solved by detective work; they are solved, if at all, by people recklessly boasting to others about what they've done after the fact. Indeed, even most robberies--where the victim and perpetrator directly interact (hence a witness to the crime)--go unsolved. Again, you watch too much television. The real world is not anything like that portrayed by police procedurals.

nyong said:
I think that everyone can agree that part of the prison system's role is to punish offenders.

No, everybody cannot agree to that. To be sure, that is a commonly accepted justification of one of the roles of prison, but it is neither the only justification nor an unanimously accepted justification.

Phoenician_Viking · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
I think that everyone can agree that part of the prison system's role is to punish offenders. What constitutes punishment is an open question, though. Is having your freedom revoked enough? Most parents don't ground their kid to their room with a PS3, an HDTV, a computer, and allow a conjugal visit by the girlfriend, while afterwards mum brings up a nice cold glass of lemonade so they can cool off after doing the deed. There's an arbitrary line drawn somewhere. Personally, I don't think that someone who commits murder by stabbing their girlfriend 178 times with a pair of safety scissors should be sent to what looks like a luxury resort to spend his days in what amounts to a retirement home. There should be some degree of discomfort beyond confinement.

These kind of criminals are sent to psychiatric hospitals, or psychiatric analysis.

nyong · Mar 29, 2011

empty vessel said:
I don't understand why you think not getting caught has a strong relationship with planning. Most crimes, especially property crimes, are not solved by detective work; they are solved, if at all, by people recklessly boasting to others about what they've done after the fact. Indeed, even most robberies--where the victim and perpetrator directly interact (hence a witness to the crime)--go unsolved. Again, you watch too much television. The real world is not anything like that portrayed by police procedurals.

I don't watch TV.

It's true that most robberies are not investigated after the fact. If you go back through my posts, you'll note that I specifically stated that robbers commit robberies whilst trying to avoid getting caught in the act: i.e. they don't waltz up to the living room window in broad daylight and smash it out. They tend to be sneaky about it. Remember the recent news on about burglars using Facebook updates about vacationing to plan robberies? I'm not arguing that robbers pick up blueprints, build model homes to practice with, or write 120-page research proposals on the feasibility of breaking into the Johnson households vacation home. But to argue that most robberies are completely without premeditation is insane. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that you believe this to be true.

nyong · Mar 29, 2011

empty vessel said:
No, everybody cannot agree to that. To be sure, that is a commonly accepted justification of one of the roles of prison, but it is neither the only justification nor an unanimously accepted justification.

It's the historical reason for incarceration. Rehabiliation is a somewhat new concept. Not to say that it doesn't make absolutely perfect sense. Suffice to say that someone out committing crimes isn't fit for society. Also suffice to say that if their release is inevitable it makes perfect sense to try to change the behavior that led to their incarceration in the first place.

SnakeswithLasers · Mar 29, 2011

Prison threads are some of the worst on GAF. Not only are they as frustrating as circumcision or tipping (heh) threads, but they actually reflect attitudes that pervade how our society functions.

In particular, it's troubling because those people most in need of social reform (those committing crimes) and reintegration are those that are just deemed unworthy trash, and who then cause the most repeat harms to those around them. Great attitude there.

Fatalah · Mar 29, 2011

Manager said:
Oh, here's one from a prison for attempted murders, drug dealers and violence related crimes:

The horror, the horror.

empty vessel · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
I don't watch TV.

It's true that most robberies are not investigated after the fact. If you go back through my posts, you'll note that I specifically stated that robbers commit robberies whilst trying to avoid getting caught in the act: i.e. they don't waltz up to the living room window in broad daylight and smash it out. They tend to be sneaky about it. Remember the recent news on about burglars using Facebook updates about vacationing to plan robberies? I'm not arguing that robbers pick up blueprints, build model homes to practice with, or write 120-page research proposals on the feasibility of breaking into the Johnson households vacation home. But to argue that most robberies are completely without premeditation is insane. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that you believe this to be true.

Robbery is not burglary. They are two entirely separate, distinct crimes. Robbery involves the use of force against a person, e.g., what you might think of as a "mugging." Burglaries are the breaking and entering into a residential or commercial structure with the intent to commit a felony (e.g., theft, rape, murder, etc.) while inside.

I don't know why you think you are qualified to opine about how crimes occur, particularly when you don't know the various crimes well enough to speak about them by their appropriate names. Likewise, you don't understand premeditation, which is not typically a legal requirement for the commission of a crime. To commit a crime, you merely need to act intentionally. That doesn't require any planning whatsoever. If I intend to break and enter a house with the intent to steal something inside it, I have committed burglary. It doesn't matter if I planned anything or not. Same with murder. I can commit first degree murder without planning a thing. As long as I intended to pull the trigger and can be said to have acted intentionally, then it does not matter whether I had formed a plan in advance.

Most crimes do not involve planning beyond some vague notion of doing it and spur of the moment decision to do it. Houses are not "cased," people are not "followed." Crimes just happen when moments of opportunity present themselves to desperate (and often mentally ill, cognitively impaired, and/or substance abusing) individuals.

Simplet · Mar 29, 2011

Pre said:
The penalties for committing crimes are there as a deterrent... because going to prison is a punishment. The threat of punishment is the deterrent.

People call prison a "punishment" because of two reasons :

- It satisfies their base instincts to see criminals (and people in general) suffer.

- It looks like people going to prison are being punished because people would rather not go to prison. But you actually have that backward. It's not that because prison is intended to be a tough punishment, as a result people get discouraged from comitting crimes; rather the only reason why it is acceptable that prison causes suffering, is that it deters other people from committing crimes. Prison is just a set of measures society as a whole has decided to implement automatically in certain cases, to prevent pre-defined crimes from happening. This is the reason why laws are never retroactive.

This has a few consequences : the first is that any increase in suffering from inmates that is not justified by a significant increase in the deterring power of prison is unnecessary and represents unjustified violence committed by the state toward its own citizens. Another is that when this violence becomes conductive to more crime, prison actually starts defeating it's own purpose.

nyong · Mar 29, 2011

empty vessel said:
Robbery is not burglary. They are two entirely separate, distinct crimes.

Yes, I'm aware of the distinction in practice. I used the wrong word. It doesn't change the fact that you seem generally clueless that most burglars take steps to avoid getting caught. They're not all crack-heads who stumble into the nearest home all cracked out, take some stuff, then leave.

Houses are not "cased,"

Of course they case homes. Insofar as they try to select homes where the owner is gone. Furthermore, most people who commit burglaries set out to commit that very crime on that day.

empty vessel · Mar 29, 2011

nyong said:
Yes, I'm aware of the distinction in practice. I used the wrong word. It doesn't change the fact that you seem generally clueless that most burglars take steps to avoid getting caught. They're not all crack-heads who stumble into the nearest home all cracked out, take some stuff, then leave.

Of course they case homes. Insofar as they try to select homes where the owner is gone. Furthermore, most people who commit burglaries set out to commit that very crime on that day.

What experience are you basing these factual conclusions on?

Articate · Mar 29, 2011

faridmon said:
No wonder my Mum works in Birmingham. That is just too much...The problem is that, it is quite flexible and the Tax, could hurt you if you live under certain circumstances. My father is a school tecnician and pay 45% just becuase he lives in Norway by himself while the family live outside it. He doesn't earn a great deal of money so, It is quite hard especially since the rent in Oslo is fairly high.

While some civil status and arrangements might alter tax, it is ultimately based on income. 45% is the tax of someone making dough, so that doesn't make much sense.

Pre · Mar 29, 2011

Simplet said:
- It satisfies their base instincts to see criminals (and people in general) suffer.

Oh, yes. You got me. I just want to see people suffer. Yep.

It's not that because prison is intended to be a tough punishment, as a result people get discouraged from comitting crimes; rather the only reason why it is acceptable that prison causes suffering, is that it deters other people from committing crimes.

No, prison is there primarily to punish people for breaking the law. I don't see how anyone can deny this. Our system is set up so that people who break the law are punished accordingly. The reason why it is acceptable that prison causes suffering is that inmates have violated the law and must face the consequences for their actions. Deterrence of other potential criminals is secondary.

empty vessel · Mar 29, 2011

Pre said:
No, prison is there primarily to punish people for breaking the law. I don't see how anyone can deny this. Our system is set up so that people who break the law are punished accordingly. The reason why it is acceptable that prison causes suffering is that inmates have violated the law and must face the consequences for their actions. Deterrence of other potential criminals is secondary.

I hate to break this to you, but you do not speak for the entirety of society. People have different views about prison and its purpose, and holding those different views does not require them to "deny" anything.

Pre · Mar 29, 2011

empty vessel said:
I hate to break this to you, but you do not speak for the entirety of society. People have different views about prison and its purpose, and holding those different views does not require them to "deny" anything.

I'm speaking from the perspective of what I believe to be the dominant perspective in America, at least from the view of our criminal justice system. Of course, this doesn't mean that every American shares this view or that people in other countries share this view.

Ether_Snake · Mar 29, 2011

I would understand if humanity was running low in numbers and every life was necessary to be rehabilitated so we could repopulate out race after finishing working that wormhole gate to Earth 2, but ermm I don't think it's the case.

UrbanRats · Mar 29, 2011

Ether_Snake said:
I would understand if humanity was running low in numbers and every life was necessary to be rehabilitated so we could repopulate out race after finishing working that wormhole gate to Earth 2, but ermm I don't think it's the case.

That is beyond the point.
Old people are "useless" to society (for the most part) you don't want to take them out too though, right?

Ether_Snake · Mar 29, 2011

UrbanRats said:
That is beyond the point.
Old people are "useless" to society (for the most part) you don't want to take them out too though, right?

We're talking about murderers and the likes here. It's not even comparable.

UrbanRats · Mar 29, 2011

Ether_Snake said:
We're talking about murderers and the likes here. It's not even comparable.

No, the point i was making was that "usefullness" is not in question, here.

Vilam · Mar 30, 2011

Beam said:
What the fuck are you talking about?
Who the hell are you to decide how much punishment people get. Taking away freedom from people is punishment enough. If a thief was sentenced 2 years to jail, that means he deserved 2 years. After he spends the 2 years he is a free man, and he paid his debt to society. He deserves another chance to start a new life. That is how you reform prisoners, instead of becoming repeated offenders. It is better alternative than giving harsh judgement, and treat people like crap.
There are consequences since people who commit crimes go to jail.

Yeah exactly, two years in jail, not the cushy resort prisons being shown in this ridiculous thread. They need the bare necessities and that's it, any comforts shouldn't be part of the prison experience. If prisons want to have libraries of old books that money isn't spent maintaining - fine. They sure as hell don't need extra comfortable beds and TVs. If they can reform themselves during their time there, then that's fantastic. Otherwise, kindly fuck off out of society.

Shanadeus · Mar 30, 2011

Vilam said:
Yeah exactly, two years in jail, not the cushy resort prisons being shown in this ridiculous thread. They need the bare necessities and that's it, any comforts shouldn't be part of the prison experience. If prisons want to have libraries of old books that money isn't spent maintaining - fine. They sure as hell don't need extra comfortable beds and TVs. If they can reform themselves during their time there, then that's fantastic. Otherwise, kindly fuck off out of society.

That attitude will probably result in them staying the fuck out of society once let out.
Which means more victims will be created as the ex-cons return to their life of criminality.

What you're talking about only work when you put everyone in for life.

Hamfam · Mar 30, 2011

Fatalah said:
The horror, the horror.

Even murderers shouldn't have to suffer Mario Sunshine.

Zeke · Mar 30, 2011

moral of the story commit your crimes in europe not america

midonnay · Mar 30, 2011

Shanadeus said:
Norway is great!
That's what you get when you have a tax of 50%+

as well as nationalised oil companies and a great big sovereign wealth fund

makes an aussie sad when our prime minister gets overthrown when we even try to get a fair share of our mining wealth.

way more · Mar 30, 2011

Given how well they treat prisoners they must have a violent crime rate that is through the roof.

lexi · Mar 30, 2011

mac said:
Given how well they treat prisoners they must have a violent crime rate that is through the roof.

Or a recidivism rate even higher than the US!

People arguing about this especially from an American point of view have no leg to stand on. The American system destroys people. They actually come out worse, with extremely reduced ability to function in society.

Manager · Mar 30, 2011

Fittingly enough, Steve-O today commented on the Swedish prisons. He has finally gone back to Canada to be arrested for an 8 year old crime. Some Swedish site rang him up, run it through Google Translate.

Your visit in Sweden (where Steve-O was arrested for possession of narcotivs, claiming he had a condom filled with marijuana in his stomach, even though he had it in his pocket) may not be one of your fondest memories?

-Seriously, I've been put in prison in many countries, and my absolute favourite custody is Sweden.

Really?

Yeah, I could barely believe it. And I'm not trying to sound macho - I mean, no one wants to go to jail - but I was chocked of how nice it was. They were so sweet to me. My experience of being locked in Sweden is better than anywhere else.

And from what I've heard, people from the Baltic and Eastern Europe, Latvia and Lithuania and such, go to Sweden to be put in prison on purpose. In Sweden you are allowed to work in prison, and then save money to use when you get out.

I wonder if they were extra nice to him because he's Steve-O, or if they actually were more unpleasant to him compared to other inmates (because he's Steve-O).

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