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Xbox LIVE Indie Games - The December 2011 Thread

So, I haven't even been able to find the Indie Games on the new dashboard :p Then again I haven't played around with it much, really interested in trying out Volchaos.
It's ridiculous. I have a hard time finding it even after I found it the first time by looking at the Major's Minute tutorial. What a maze. Could you imagine someone who doesn't care as much and is even dumber than me?

And on the topic of sticking with XBLIG, since we are so close to finishing our first game, I will still release it on the service. I will always have hope, but I seriously doubt it will do more than make my money back for the license. The game has mummies, which are just zombies wrapped up, so it has that going for it :p

I'm now debating our second game, rolling it around in my head on my downtime. XBLIG compatability was always a factor previously, but not so much anymore. Kind of freeing but also kind of sad.
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
When you release on XBLIG, do you have the price your game as you see fit?
I mean, smaller releases are 80 points. Can I go 60 points if I want?

80, 240, 400. These are the only prices available for XBLIG now. There's size limits also, that determine if you can place a game into that size bracket.
 

Ranger X

Member
I simply cannot blame Microsoft for any of this. Anyone who does is looking for a convenient scapegoat to their problems.

I don't think this is true. I am not an indy dev (yet) and I can understand their concern. I'm quite flabergasted that when I open my Xbox, I have to change pages to actually be in the "GAMES" section. I mean wtf, is it a game console I'm using or not?
I am of the opinion that when you turn on the machine, you should end up in the game section by default and the "open tray" box should be there too. Actually, I should be able in the first page to choose wich game I want to play or buy. Everything else can be on other pages.
 
I don't think this is true. I am not an indy dev (yet) and I can understand their concern. I'm quite flabergasted that when I open my Xbox, I have to change pages to actually be in the "GAMES" section. I mean wtf, is it a game console I'm using or not?
I am of the opinion that when you turn on the machine, you should end up in the game section by default and the "open tray" box should be there too. Actually, I should be able in the first page to choose wich game I want to play or buy. Everything else can be on other pages.

I never wanted to say anything about this until we actually released a game. Yes, the Dash is a mess for indies, but also a mess for near everything else.

Yes, the Dash should be game focused first and foremost givin that it drives a game platform. I personally would have preferred that.

Yes, Microsoft could spotlight "good" indie games and give them larger dash space. They know that their push will drive sales up for the developer and will benefit them as well. They could also do more with promotion but they choose not to, probably to make the system as equitable as possible.

Any developer out there can simply look at their trials vs. purchases. I know how many trials we had. The numbers are actually incredibly positive. The trick is getting those trial players to buy the game. If you find that your conversion is low something is then wrong with your game. It either isn't fun or people don't think it is worth the money. You have to work at fixing both of those issues then. If you can't change your price you have to change your game.

We know that 500k people have gone into the indie store in the past and bought a copy of Fortresscraft. It isn't that people don't know what the store is or whether it exists or not. It has more to do with you trying to sell them a game they are interested in buying.
 
Mostly my problem has never been conversion rate, my problem has been simply not getting enough trials. Make a game that converts at over 30% and is rated 4 out of 5 stars and bombs... that's a problem w/ the service.

When I can take the same game, port it to iPhone, and sell 3-4 times as many copies in 1/4th the time, that's a problem with the service.

XBLIG could be fantastic, but it's not. And that's not developers fault. There is only so much we can do. We can't fix list freezes, we can't keep the Indies section from being hidden, we can't add filters to the constant stream of crap the fills the service, we can't give ourselves access to Achievements, Leaderboards, or Kinect, we can't add presence to our games, we can't make our games show up in recently played lists, we can't make our games available without Internet access...

Certainly some developers have done well on the service but most fail. And it's sad because it does not have to be that way. And that's Microsoft's fault.
 
Yeah it is easy to blame Microsoft... because it really is mostly their fault because honestly this service would be 10x more effective if they would just put .00001% more effort into it. People will say "well the XBLIG service is not supposed to make money!" which maybe is true - but it doesn't dispute the fact it could be so much more with minimal effort. Given the new dashboard I am not sure where their focus is anymore anyway...
 

Gaspode_T

Member
I totally understand frustrations with XBLIG situation (and I have been losing sleep over it way too much considering I don't have an XBLIG game out, I just care about it a lot)

I kind of agree with the 0.000001% more effort piece, but you have to remember Xbox team would probably get shut down completely and there would be no Kinect R&D etc pushing gaming in new directions if the division was not profitable. I'm sure there was a time when shareholders would have wanted to just stop the whole game division all together. There are waaaaaayyyy less people working at Microsoft on each project than most people think so it's not like there are people sitting around with free time.

I wouldn't give up hope on realistic changes to the system, it's a decent time to ask for them now that the dash update is out in the wild. Games like Fortress Craft are very useful to push for indie games improvements because without that it would be a lot harder to argue for it.

If you're that confident about sales on mobile I am kind of confused why you wouldn't just port Volchaos to iOS/Android/WP7 and watch sales roll in. Nokia support is going to bring an avalanche of WP7 users and a huge # of Androids are being sold too so it's kind of silly to restrict yourself to one of the 3 unless you want to do something like try to get XBL support and moneybags from a publisher directly.

I'm actually confused why more XBLIG devs don't release WP7 games and aren't beating a drum about getting achievements on WP7 instead of Xbox 360. Simple 2D games sell better on mobile than consoles, that's a fact of the current market not something wrong with XBLIG. (Edit: although I acknowledge things with the marketplace could be improved...I think the core problem revolves around supply/demand for certain types of games when people sit in front of a console...if there is demand, they will find it)

I would guess that iOS and Android gaming is considered a bigger threat to Microsoft's future in mobile world than PS Suite games on a Vita or PS3 would be, so it's no wonder that they put a lot of effort into making XNA work on WP7 and making resources to make making WP7 games easier. I have been gaming a lot on my son's iPad and I enjoy it very much, I can't wait to be able to play games on Windows 8 tablet but something tells me the games that run on it will make Infinity Blade look like an old-gen game, so how you will be able to continue to compete with relatively simple 2D games, continue to stand out and sell will remain to be a challenge in the future. Even if Steam has popular 2D games now, things like Unity3D are making it easier and easier to make 3D games and eventually I think XBLA-level games will sort of become the norm for indie games (it's a scary thought for someone who wants to do this sort of thing as a semi-pro hobbyist)
 

Ranger X

Member
We know that 500k people have gone into the indie store in the past and bought a copy of Fortresscraft. It isn't that people don't know what the store is or whether it exists or not. It has more to do with you trying to sell them a game they are interested in buying.

I obviously don't want to diminish this aspect (that I perfectly understand). It's just that the store (that is a mess, I guess we agree here) just got worse... So it's normal to see a reaction. I think it's a seperate issue and legit complain outside of dev's duty to make good games and market them properly.
This said, people will be used to it in a couple of weeks, the damage is extremely hard to predict if any damage there will be.
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
Mostly my problem has never been conversion rate, my problem has been simply not getting enough trials. Make a game that converts at over 30% and is rated 4 out of 5 stars and bombs... that's a problem w/ the service.

When I can take the same game, port it to iPhone, and sell 3-4 times as many copies in 1/4th the time, that's a problem with the service.

I personally think this part is about the user base. Iphone/android games are available pretty much everywhere and millions more have these types of phones then have Xbox's.

The limited countries on XBLIG is an issue, is that Microsoft's fault? I don't think so. If another country has strict classification rules Microsoft can not change this.

There are so many arguments to this debate. Some issues are Microsoft's problems, some are developers. Some people may create great game ideas but have terrible art to support it or terrible execution. If a game looks like a pc game I could get for free and probably enjoy more I would get that and that is the issues with a lot of games on this service.

As mentioned some games sell incredibly well on this service and at the end of the day I felt this part of the market was meant to be more of a showcase for Indie developers, I never felt that it was supposed to be where developers were going to make a viable business. Yes I know some have, but too many have set up a stall and made this their livelihood and I think they were being naive. When this was initially started all I recall it was for the hobbyist to create games.

Microsoft was clear from the start there would be no achievements or leaderboards, they haven't changed this stance as these are exclusive features for XBLA titles, which I am sure the vast majority make more money for them then a good 97% of Indie games.
 
The limited countries on XBLIG is an issue, is that Microsoft's fault? I don't think so. If another country has strict classification rules Microsoft can not change this.

I dunno. I suspect XBLIG could be available in many more countries if MS put in the effort (that's a common trend w/ the service). XBLA game are available in a lot more countries as are iPhone games (which in theory should be subject to similar classification / rating rules).

If you're that confident about sales on mobile I am kind of confused why you wouldn't just port Volchaos to iOS/Android/WP7 and watch sales roll in. Nokia support is going to bring an avalanche of WP7 users and a huge # of Androids are being sold too so it's kind of silly to restrict yourself to one of the 3 unless you want to do something like try to get XBL support and moneybags from a publisher directly.
My last game on WP7 (Hypership) sold 18 copies, so forgive me if I'm done on that service. As for iOS and Android, it's a matter of finding the time to do the ports. I would like to get several of my games on iOS (not all my games fit, like Nasty I don't think would work). I recently purchased a Mac and have taken over update duties on Hypership for iOS, once I learn that better I'll start rolling with a new game or port for iOS too.
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
I dunno. I suspect XBLIG could be available in many more countries if MS put in the effort (that's a common trend w/ the service). XBLA game are available in a lot more countries as are iPhone games (which in theory should be subject to similar classification / rating rules).

Isn't part of the XBLA service getting games classified for release though, standards have to be met so that a game can be released in so many countries? Classifying the stuff on XBLIG would be so laborious, which could add to quality (certainly controls), but I don't know who would take on that extra responsibility.

I can't comment on an Iphone service as I have an android phone and the market for that seems to be free for all. Does I-phone operate a full classification system?

I have been today reading the pricing article on Indie Gamer chick -

http://indiegamerchick.com/2011/12/10/lets-talk-pricing/

and as a result both Soulcaster games are now 80pts. See Ian Stockers follow up article on there and why he has done this.

http://indiegamerchick.com/2011/12/13/tales-from-the-dev-side-magic-seal-pelts-by-ian-stocker/


As for the Marketplace I think the game marketplace is easy to find, I have seen some showcased indie games in there too. Like everything people hate change, it's the same everytime facebook changes, but soon enough they have no problem with it.
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
And as a result both Soulcaster games are now 80pts. See Ian Stockers follow up article on there and why he has done this.

http://indiegamerchick.com/2011/12/13/tales-from-the-dev-side-magic-seal-pelts-by-ian-stocker/

Just have to thrown in my "BUY SOULCASTER I and II NOW!" bin:


Soulcaster 1 XBOX.com Page!

Soulcaster 2 XBOX.COM Page!

I really loved both of them. I looked foward to 2 so much, that I went back and made good on buying the first one, when I had missed out on it. Beat the first one in short order (Rare for me, as I don't like to rush through games... but it was perfectly paced), and REALLY enjoyed dropping right into 2, which seemed like a vast improvement on an already great game. Like the shift from an NES game to an SNES one, with all the refinements you'd wish for in such a update, with more that I wouldn't have even thought of, but were comfortably there waiting for me.

The games felt so natural in their style that I had to really think "... this hasn't been done before? WHY?!? IT WORKS SO WELL!" Similiar to Protect Me Knight / まもって騎士
, it felt like a game that, if you could take it back to the Nintendo / Early SNES Eras, would have spawned it's own Genre, and potentially go down in history as the first of what would become a mountain of clones and derivative "tributes".

They were both easily worth 240 pts each. Very easy buys for the quality. At 80 points, there should be no hesitation at all!

And the Shopkeeper is awesome. And the end game artwork. And the game. And the Shopkeeper theme. And yeah.
 
And that's not developers fault.

It isn't the developers fault?

It isn't the developers fault that everyone rushed to and set an 80msp standard pricing setup?

It isn't the developers fault that since we both came out, 25(!) more games have hit the shelves in the last 13 days?

Developers really have a responsibility to other developers. People made the service into what it is today by strip mining it and exploiting it. Building an expectation of what they will find and what price they will pay for it.

Microsoft didn't flood the store, Microsoft didn't force a pricepoint. Microsoft didn't create an expectation. They did what they thought was a great idea and that was opening up their console to any developer to make games on.

Developers run to Steam because they have a barrier to entry, effectively keeping most junk off of their service and saving their customers from seeing and paying for crap.
 

slash000

Zeboyd Games
Don't know if anyone has followed this, but Stardock (a popular niche strategy dev that makes mostly PC games) decided to make a Christmas-themed XBLIG under a the name Tykocom.

Here's an excerpt from Gamasutra about it, where they discussed it a bit:

"It was always a Christmas game," says Tykoski. "I knew it could be made in a few months and once I had a polished prototype up and running, we quickly saw its appeal and Stardock was happy to put some marketing muscle behind it."

He continues, "Granted, now that the holiday season is half over I wish it was a genre that would sell year-round, but regardless, it’s been successful and it was a fun side project -- and there's always next Christmas for updates and another bite at the apple!"

Regarding sales and expectations of the title, Tykoski explains that sales reports for the game have not yet come in, although attention from press and gamers has been good. "The coverage and comments for Elfsquad7 have been steady and positive, which we see translating into some impressive holiday sales," he suggests.

Shortly after the game came out, and they got sales numbers, Stardock's Brad Wardell tweeted: "So clearly, the indie game channel on the Xbox is a waste of time from any sort of commercial POV."


link
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
Don't know if anyone has followed this, but Stardock (a popular niche strategy dev that makes mostly PC games) decided to make a Christmas-themed XBLIG under a the name Tykocom.

Here's an excerpt from Gamasutra about it, where they discussed it a bit:



Shortly after the game came out, and they got sales numbers, Stardock's Brad Wardell tweeted: "So clearly, the indie game channel on the Xbox is a waste of time from any sort of commercial POV."


link

Hmm I can see a lot of people getting bored with the simplicity of the game though. Platform sales are so hit and miss on this channel.

What is the biggest selling platform game on the marketplace?
 
I'm just a consumer and I want to say I had no troubles finding the indie channel since the update. I can sympathize with devs regarding the total lack of ad/promo presence on live, but at the end of the day I had no problems finding the channel.

For the record I have never bought an indie game but that's because I've found most of them to be very poor. However I do think if I received more info on indie games via media or some grassroots type advertising I may have bought a game or two.
 
So I have been collecting game demos and whatnot for the longest time, barely putting down the MS Points on them, but I am slowly building a lineup. So, here goes.

Andromium
-Purchased after enjoying the world diversity.
-Really liked the level styles and whatnot.
-Put off by the game's sudden end. It felt like it had a few more worlds to go.
-Haven't tried the harder mode, yet.

Arkedo Series 03: PIXEL!
-Game crashed on me twice in the last level.
-Loved the concept and hope they somehow come back to the idea.
-Kitty platformer with plenty of polish where it counts <3

Artoon
-No longer available for download, but I got it early.
-Fun game with lots of bouncing and Q-bert feel to it.
-Really like the various level designs and elements.
-Unfortunately it is over a bit too quickly and does not go too far with the concept.
-The game hasn't come back yet, I don't think. Shame.

Bonded Realities
-If you want an Earthboundy experience, this game has it.
-Awesome pun-filled enemies and attacks. I always wanted to make something similar.
-The ability to turn off random battles = Win!
-Intense final battles and made everyone useful (for the most part).
-I'm okay with the art style, frankly. Music is awesome.
-I'd buy a larger sequel in a heartbeat.

Curse of the Crescent Isle
-Just bought it after playing the demo so many times.
-Complicated controls at first, but it makes sense later on.
-A bit longer than I pessimistically expected (2-3 curses defeated thus far).
-Why is he smaller than the rest of the people? *shrug*

Dark
-Liked the atmosphere
-Not so much the length
-Still a decent example of lighting abilities

Doc Logic
-Also just recently bought, after loving the music and potential worlds.
-I wish there were more enemy types, frankly.
-The game gets real stressful as the levels go up. Sometimes frustrating.
-Lots of love seen in its development, artwork and all that.
-The Coming Soon section fills me with sadness, as I doubt they are being worked on, right?

LaserCat
-VVVVVV with a platforming cat, anyone?
-Sucks it only has one savefile for the whole console (two profiles)
-Fun, open-world design.
-The quizzes are neat
-Some occasional frustrations but good game all around.

Olu
-Sucker for Rez-like, this is Rez-lite-lite.
-First level has good integration with music, others not nearly as much.
-The ability to swap phases for more damage is new and helps it.
-Needed a bit more polish in its music and visual presentation for most.

PLATFORMANCE: Castle Pain
-Great small game.
-Wished for more levels than just the 1, but I'll live.
-Hated the lack of high score rankings, but I hear that changed.
-Some glitchy jumps make me rage.

PolyWobble
-Math nerd made me enjoy the Geometry lessons
-Very basic all around
-If you accept the edutainment of the game, you *might* be interested.
-Game-wise, it is too simple

Rainbow Ball into Adventure
-The giddiness of it all made me buy it. <3
-Lots of love here, with the playful child calls to the drawings and whatnot
-Shame there is no level saving nor end-game.
-Still a delight to play around with.

Sharpshooter
-Got for free from yyr for review
-Very Point Blank-esque
-Lots of difficulties and challenges
-Wish there was a little more Style behind it, otherwise decent stuff

Snake360
-Lots and lots of Snake
-If you like snake, you'll LOVE this!
-Many worlds and levels and difficulties and modes
-Haven't tried battle mode, but I hear good things.

So, yeah, that's what I got. Still have a LOT of demos I'm sifting through (I have 93 indie games at the moment, apparently). Any more suggestions and whatnot?
 

OnPoint

Member
I'm just a consumer and I want to say I had no troubles finding the indie channel since the update. I can sympathize with devs regarding the total lack of ad/promo presence on live, but at the end of the day I had no problems finding the channel.

For the record I have never bought an indie game but that's because I've most of them to be very poor. However I do think if I received more info on indie games via media or some grassroots type advertising I may have bought a game or two.

Isn't what happens in these threads a kind of grassroots effort? You know, there are a ton of websites out there that talk about and focus on these games too. In fact, bigger sites like Joystiq and Destructoid focus on the standouts as well. There is a pretty decent amount of coverage, honestly.

So I'm just not buying that post. If you wanted to play indie games you would. You're right: There are a ton of awful games on XBLIG. But there are a bunch of good ones as well. Not just the ones I picked in this thread, but in the large number of threads past that Toy did.
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
I'm just a consumer and I want to say I had no troubles finding the indie channel since the update. I can sympathize with devs regarding the total lack of ad/promo presence on live, but at the end of the day I had no problems finding the channel.

For the record I have never bought an indie game but that's because I've most of them to be very poor. However I do think if I received more info on indie games via media or some grassroots type advertising I may have bought a game or two.

There are good games on the service, you need to look hard though.

Like you I had no problem finding the marketplace and notice that there was a few games showcased in there too.

I must admit I am tired of developers thinking their games have a right to sell well when they are nothing above average at best.
 
yeah that Elfsquad game is kinda excruciatingly boring in single player. Seems like you'd have to literally try to lose.

agreed. the game is a total bore-fest. i feel like xblig gets such a bad rep. people act like they are entitled to profit just because they made a game and released it.

first of all, a lot of the games are bad. really bad. secondly, a lot of the games that have a decent level (or more) of polish just aren't fun. elfsquad7 would be one of those games.

the real problem is that people are not understanding the market. you can make money on the platform. a lot of it. people have done it (and are doing it right now)...

i'm going to hold back from saying anything else because i don't want to offend anyone or hurt anyone's feelings, but i'd suggest studying the market before releasing your game if your goal is to make money. you don't "deserve" to profit simply because you put time and effort into making a game and released it.
 

OnPoint

Member
So I have been collecting game demos and whatnot for the longest time, barely putting down the MS Points on them, but I am slowly building a lineup. So, here goes.

... impressions ...

So, yeah, that's what I got. Still have a LOT of demos I'm sifting through (I have 93 indie games at the moment, apparently). Any more suggestions and whatnot?

Snake 360 is a BLAST in multiplayer.
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
I personally would love to know why a person who got the trial of Orbitron didn't think they wanted to buy it.

I was honest and thought your trial was part of the issue for me. I did purchase the game though and it's definitely growing on me more. I am a shooter fan.


Anyway can I ask you all to look over the front page, again, for the topic I run over on Grcade?

http://www.grcade.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11888

I am going to review it again soon. I think you'll definitely find something in that lot you'll like. I'd love feedback and I do cross reference here too.
 
If you're that confident about sales on mobile I am kind of confused why you wouldn't just port Volchaos to iOS/Android/WP7 and watch sales roll in. Nokia support is going to bring an avalanche of WP7 users and a huge # of Androids are being sold too so it's kind of silly to restrict yourself to one of the 3 unless you want to do something like try to get XBL support and moneybags from a publisher directly.

I'm actually confused why more XBLIG devs don't release WP7 games and aren't beating a drum about getting achievements on WP7 instead of Xbox 360. Simple 2D games sell better on mobile than consoles, that's a fact of the current market not something wrong with XBLIG. (Edit: although I acknowledge things with the marketplace could be improved...I think the core problem revolves around supply/demand for certain types of games when people sit in front of a console...if there is demand, they will find it)

I have never seen anyone with a WP7, other than Microsoft Employees at PAX. And I live in New York. I ride the subways everyday, and have NEVER seen a person on the street or otherwise with this phone.

I'm not knocking it, not by any means, because it's a beautiful OS and on very competent devices. But the fact of the matter is that no one owns these.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Yeah WP7 hasn't done so well this far but Nokia has a lot of might especially in Europe, they also are making one of the nicest phones yet. I don't expect it to rocket to #1 but it will have a lot of gamers on it too because a lot of people who are enticed to buy it are interested in the games that support achievements (that's not really a plus for achievement-less indie games, but still you will have some pretty hardcore gamers on board)

Soulcaster I and II are must buys people!
 

Gaspode_T

Member
http://indiegamerchick.com/2011/12/...magic-seal-pelts-by-ian-stocker/#comment-1751

This is a pretty interesting piece of data/factoid, with what search engine queries people are landing on the indiegamerchick's website

trailer park king 1,732
temple of dogolrak 994
indie gamer chick 726
indiegamerchick 302
trailer park king game 225
trailer park king review 225
wizorb 171
blocks that matter controls 142
train frontier express 129
kairi vice 107
wizorb review 90
king of the trailer park 88
dead pixels indie game 87
trailer park king indie game 87
trailer park king nudity 84
flight adventure 2 78
trailer park king porn 75
trailer park king xbox 70
zombies ruined my day 67
trailer park king guide 63

Speaking as someone that has looked through plenty of search engine query logs, this pales in comparison to the deep depths of the dark underbelly of the internet.
 
I'm a programmer on a game titled Platformer From Hell (terrible title, I know.. it was a working title and we've just never gotten around to switching it). We developed it for a class using XNA and it's nearing completion.

We're not sure if we're going to try to publish it for 360 or keep it as distributable for PC only, but if we do end up putting it up on Indie games... is it cool if I advertise it on here?
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Anyway can I ask you all to look over the front page, again, for the topic I run over on Grcade?

http://www.grcade.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11888

I am going to review it again soon. I think you'll definitely find something in that lot you'll like. I'd love feedback and I do cross reference here too.

Holy mother of...the beauty of it...you have a very nice selection of games there.

Are you missing Vizati for puzzle games?

Orbitron comments - maybe you should make the controller rumble when you blow up enemies, also the techno music might start off slower/lower volume and increase in intensity. Also more warps, it's too hard to move back and forth so it feels a little bit slow paced or frustrating when enemies are far away.
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
So Magic Racing GP 2 is out today for 240pts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhD2Cevd24s

I have just had a go on the trial and will have to go back to it in a minute to try again before I form an opinion based on this trial.

Not liking that box art though and have some issues with the presentation, fonts and the podium looks dull as dishwater. Edit: Just to clarify this, look at the effort that's gone into the courses, then look at the podium on completion of a race, seems like that was a last minute addition.

I was looking forward to this game an 8 minute trial is not long enough to form an opinion on some of these titles.
 
I'm not knocking it, not by any means, because it's a beautiful OS and on very competent devices. But the fact of the matter is that no one owns these.

The last sales stats I saw said WP7 made up 1.5% of new smartphone sales. I personally know one person (besides other XNA devs I know) that owns one. I have one myself too but only for development.

I know one person that is doing very well making WP7 games but my experience w/ Hypership on WP7 has been bad. Although considering it didn't lose me any money, it's still doing a lot better than Volchaos.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
So, yeah, that's what I got. Still have a LOT of demos I'm sifting through (I have 93 indie games at the moment, apparently). Any more suggestions and whatnot?

Protect Me Knight, Apple Jack, Wizorb, a few of the Radiangames, Shoot 1Up, Sequence (if you missed the boat on the free steam copy given to GAF members), Oozi, Breath of Death VII/Cthulu, Scapegoat are good places to start with...

others can probably give you even more recommendations.
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
Holy mother of...the beauty of it...you have a very nice selection of games there.

Are you missing Vizati for puzzle games?

Thanks. I am indeed. I shall add it on my next edit. I have a couple more to put in people should at least try. Any others you think are missing?
 

Gaspode_T

Member
2012 is a make it or break it test for WP7, not 2011. The fact is that fruition of the Nokia deal will only come in 2012. Even now though there has been a small spike in sales according to some devs usage stats, the phone has super high satisfaction ratings and truly is basically on par or better than the other phones.

qupe I will take a look tomorrow, 1am in Japan now! I got some interesting new Picks which seems to update at random times...now it's recommending Moon Cheese and some Gravitation360 game to me.

The new top down F1 racer looks quite nice, I downloaded the trial (but 240 pts)
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
qupe I will take a look tomorrow, 1am in Japan now! I got some interesting new Picks which seems to update at random times...now it's recommending Moon Cheese and some Gravitation360 game to me.

The new top down F1 racer looks quite nice, I downloaded the trial (but 240 pts)

If that is Gravitron360 that is a good recommendation. Mooncheese is better suited to a phone, short play game.
 
Onpoint: I'm not exactly sure why my post elicited the tones of hostility in your reply?
I'll make myself clearer and also expand on my point of view in hopes that you "buy" it. (Sorry for the jab there, but the "not buying it" comment has really rubbed me the wrong way).

Isn't what happens in these threads a kind of grassroots effort?

I never said or even remotely implied that this wasn't a grassroots thread.

The point I was trying to relay was more speaking to the devs on their responsibility to market their own products, communicate with potential customers and get their message out. While threads created by customers are good for word of mouth and creating small ripples, relying on your customers to be the driving grassroots marketing force is a huge mistake.
Other than gaf - which until very recently I've been an inactive member - the only message board I visited with regularity was the IGN boards from 2003 - 2010. In all my time on the boards from the 360 lobby, to the 360 gb and even the vestibule I can not recall one singular thread about indie games from either the community, and more importantly, the developers. I'm not saying that creating open dialog between the gaming community and the dev is going to equal in financial success; however if one is wishing to make their wares, their full time business they have a responsibility to make the consumer aware of their product and create top of mind presence.
Also in the case of Ign, during the time frame I mentioned it was the 1st & 2nd most popular message board on the net. With such an incredible (free) resource with amazing reach and penetration right at ones fingertips it's odd that I've seen it go mostly ignored. Besides no self respecting gaming nerd would pass up a chance to talk with a game developer and discuss their game or the industry at large.


You know, there are a ton of websites out there that talk about and focus on these games too. In fact, bigger sites like Joystiq and Destructoid focus on the standouts as well. There is a pretty decent amount of coverage, honestly.

No I don't know that as a matter of fact. I used to frequent IGN regularly and their xbox live coverage (like their site) is pure shit and the indie content was so irritatingly difficult to find that I just gave up looking. I actually haven't found a "home" gaming site I like since I gave up on ign in 2009/10 so I can't/shouldn't comment on media coverage tbh; however I'm going to check out Joystiq and Destructoid. For whatever reason I always forget about them, so thanks for reminding me.

So I'm just not buying that post. If you wanted to play indie games you would. You're right: There are a ton of awful games on XBLIG. But there are a bunch of good ones as well. Not just the ones I picked in this thread, but in the large number of threads past that Toy did.

I have to admit that this comment irritates me almost as much as the "not buying it" comment. What would give you the impression I, for whatever reason, would not want to play a good game that appeals to me?
I find the statement not just odd but extremely insulting, as if I have some imbalanced axe to grind with the indie development community. While it is encouraging to hear there are a large number of threads on indie games, you are assuming I've read them and have a greater amount of information to draw from than your average consumer.

You see I am the average consumer. I have nothing to draw from other than what is on the indie channel, and what I see on the indie channel is more shit than not. From a consumers POV there are somethings I really dislike about the indie channel, some are MS's fault but most are the devs fault.

The things that turn me off from a game have to start with Zombies. When I see another zombie game all I think is "here's another POS clone of a clone of clone just trying to cash in instead of actually creating original content.

The traditional platformer. It's going to take something very unique and special for me to take notice. I'll admit this is more a matter of my taste.

Also if I can play it for free online (not pirating) chances are I will not buy it on xbl.

Crap & holiday themed games. To me these games seem like throw away titles and a waste of money. Personally I found the whining quote itt from a dev saying he's not making enough on the platform (but more than other devs, hoo hoo!), so his solution is to only put out crap. This train of thought is so unbelievable counter productive it went from funny to making me question his critical thinking abilities (not to mention making me take note of what games to ignore). With shit games being such an issue with indie games that instead of trying improve the consumers view of the indie game he's going to reenforce it and slap his own brand of shit on it? *shakes head*

From a MS perspective, I hate how I can't sort by game type anymore, there's no achievements, lack of advertising (yes I'm one of those gamers that actually appreciate the game related ads on my 360), total lack of kinect support (though I think MS is just scared of the competition) and no quality control. I would love some sort of program where devs have a standard of quality in where a game must be passed by X number of indie developers in order to get released. Obviously that would be an undertaking in order to streamline and ensure fairness.

Anyway I'm sure I could go on but I'm more than sure I've said explained myself at this point, lol. Oh and btw I'm going to check out your other threads just in case there is something I should play before I die.
 
Thank you for your input guys. We are working on an update to alleviate some of the concerns people have had when experiencing the Trial of the game as well as in the game itself. The update is going to be substantial as well. We want the game to be a success and we are thankful for your support!
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Nealand you are indeed sounding a lot like a more average 360 consumer than most of us in this thread. I've been trying to get that point across to many of the XNA devs that they should either design the game they want to play themselves or if they want to make money they should target a demographic or niche.

qupe - I found the site I wanted to show you, this is an example of a site that was apparently very easy to throw together and shows a huge amount of games in very easy way to scroll through and look at screenshots (it also works well on mobile/tablets)

http://igf2012.herokuapp.com/main

The gallery view is nice, I would love to be able to have one gallery view of this per the genres in your forum post. I'm not sure if there is an easier way to get that setup without having to set up a custom web page...

As for missing games, I couldn't find many more that aren't borderline...I think you have a pretty awesome list...I almost want to give my shot at ranking each of those genres (the ones I have played)
 

OnPoint

Member
Nealand, sorry to have come off as a hard-ass about this originally, but your original comment really got under my skin. I'll try to elaborate.

Onpoint: I'm not exactly sure why my post elicited the tones of hostility in your reply?
I'll make myself clearer and also expand on my point of view in hopes that you "buy" it. (Sorry for the jab there, but the "not buying it" comment has really rubbed me the wrong way).

I wasn't "buying it" because you came on here and trashed the channel while making it sound like you didn't do much to explore what's on it yourself. You said it yourself: "I have never bought an indie game but that's because I've most of them to be very poor."

This irks me because every game on the indie channel -- every one -- has a demo available. I wouldn't expect you to download the trial for every one of them like the rest of us nuts in here, but I'd at least expect you to check a few out that fit your interests before damning them as "very poor".

I never said or even remotely implied that this wasn't a grassroots thread.

The point I was trying to relay was more speaking to the devs on their responsibility to market their own products, communicate with potential customers and get their message out. While threads created by customers are good for word of mouth and creating small ripples, relying on your customers to be the driving grassroots marketing force is a huge mistake.

Other than gaf - which until very recently I've been an inactive member - the only message board I visited with regularity was the IGN boards from 2003 - 2010. In all my time on the boards from the 360 lobby, to the 360 gb and even the vestibule I can not recall one singular thread about indie games from either the community, and more importantly, the developers. I'm not saying that creating open dialog between the gaming community and the dev is going to equal in financial success; however if one is wishing to make their wares, their full time business they have a responsibility to make the consumer aware of their product and create top of mind presence.

Also in the case of Ign, during the time frame I mentioned it was the 1st & 2nd most popular message board on the net. With such an incredible (free) resource with amazing reach and penetration right at ones fingertips it's odd that I've seen it go mostly ignored. Besides no self respecting gaming nerd would pass up a chance to talk with a game developer and discuss their game or the industry at large.

It probably wouldn't hurt the devs to get on the IGN boards and pimp their games out to the average consumer. It is a pretty big userbase that may yield some results. Other than threads like these and trying to work with sites that actually cover indie games, what else do you suggest to get the word out?

No I don't know that as a matter of fact. I used to frequent IGN regularly and their xbox live coverage (like their site) is pure shit and the indie content was so irritatingly difficult to find that I just gave up looking. I actually haven't found a "home" gaming site I like since I gave up on ign in 2009/10 so I can't/shouldn't comment on media coverage tbh; however I'm going to check out Joystiq and Destructoid. For whatever reason I always forget about them, so thanks for reminding me.

Xboxindies.com is your friend here. They've compiled a pretty sizable list of sites that cover XBLIG and put them under one roof.

I have to admit that this comment irritates me almost as much as the "not buying it" comment. What would give you the impression I, for whatever reason, would not want to play a good game that appeals to me?

I find the statement not just odd but extremely insulting, as if I have some imbalanced axe to grind with the indie development community. While it is encouraging to hear there are a large number of threads on indie games, you are assuming I've read them and have a greater amount of information to draw from than your average consumer.

As stated before, you said you've never bought an indie title. I'm not assuming you've read the threads, I'm hoping that you've done your due diligence before coming on and trashing the entire service with blanket statements.

There's plenty of quality on XBLIG, and I'd be floored if there wasn't at least one game out there that you could get behind. I'd be happy to make suggestions, as would some of the other members here, I'd guess.

You see I am the average consumer. I have nothing to draw from other than what is on the indie channel, and what I see on the indie channel is more shit than not. From a consumers POV there are somethings I really dislike about the indie channel, some are MS's fault but most are the devs fault.

The things that turn me off from a game have to start with Zombies. When I see another zombie game all I think is "here's another POS clone of a clone of clone just trying to cash in instead of actually creating original content.

The traditional platformer. It's going to take something very unique and special for me to take notice. I'll admit this is more a matter of my taste.

Also if I can play it for free online (not pirating) chances are I will not buy it on xbl.

Crap & holiday themed games. To me these games seem like throw away titles and a waste of money. Personally I found the whining quote itt from a dev saying he's not making enough on the platform (but more than other devs, hoo hoo!), so his solution is to only put out crap. This train of thought is so unbelievable counter productive it went from funny to making me question his critical thinking abilities (not to mention making me take note of what games to ignore). With shit games being such an issue with indie games that instead of trying improve the consumers view of the indie game he's going to reenforce it and slap his own brand of shit on it? *shakes head*

From a MS perspective, I hate how I can't sort by game type anymore, there's no achievements, lack of advertising (yes I'm one of those gamers that actually appreciate the game related ads on my 360), total lack of kinect support (though I think MS is just scared of the competition) and no quality control. I would love some sort of program where devs have a standard of quality in where a game must be passed by X number of indie developers in order to get released. Obviously that would be an undertaking in order to streamline and ensure fairness.

Anyway I'm sure I could go on but I'm more than sure I've said explained myself at this point, lol. Oh and btw I'm going to check out your other threads just in case there is something I should play before I die.

Yeah, the zombie games need to be given a rest, and I hate most of the holiday themed titles as well. Microsoft did a poor job making this easy to locate and explore while hiding it away from customers as well. But you have to work with the supplies you've been given sometimes, I guess.

Achievements, in my eyes, would draw more people to the channel. But I don't think that's something we'll ever see.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
I sort of think it's a higher priority for them to allow the devs like Xona Games, Radiangames etc that are obviously itching to do it to release on XBLA or WP7 as an XBL game. That would mean making it a little bit easier for indies to get published somehow. It's not impossible now, it's just obviously not a cakewalk. It seems that is mostly policy issues to overcome, where adding achievements to indie games would be both technically challenging as well change the entire 'worth' of having achievement points if people can just buy a bunch of 80 point games to increase their score.

I just noticed a trailer / dev document for a game Platformines by one of my favorite devs Magiko Gaming (of Platformance fame)

They are doing exactly what I hope other XNA devs do - take a popular idea and tweak it to be something unique. Here is their take on the mining genre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ0olthCCB0
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Speaking of which here is another interesting column from the dev of Cute Things Dying Violently about his opinion of what people interested in XBLIG development should do:

http://indiegamerchick.com/2011/12/14/tales-from-the-dev-side-standing-out-by-alex-jordan/

Sneak preview:

Actually, who the hell am I to talk about aesthetics? My game seemed to fall into this weird valley of (a) too graphically advanced to be retro, and (b) not graphically advanced enough to be &#8220;artsy.&#8221; I still cry over my ice cream about this, but there is a good lesson in there.

People like retro. They also like artsy. Can you do one of the two? Do you want to do one of the two? If not, find an artistic style that nonetheless fits the game you want to make and execute it as faithfully and tastefully as you can.

If you suck at art, find someone else who can help you. Or, if you&#8217;re the stubborn type, read Photoshop tutorials until your eyeballs bleed&#8230; when you break it down, creating artwork is still just manipulating 1s and 0s, and you&#8217;ll be surprised what you can pull off with a little practice.

I still wonder why even the crappiest games on iOS seem to have nice graphics and UI, and painstakingly creating little icons - I think basically the "real" money grubbers haven't descended upon XBLIG like a swarm.

I was watching these "making of" videos of a small iOS game which is sort of Mighty Bomb Jack clone called Katana Jack, the entire art for the game was created with an iPad so there's not much excuse for not being able to create art if you have skills:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjx8Fa-k_RE

I would say the art for that game is still not as good as most of the other iOS games that are Free or $1, so IMO a huge problem for XBLIG is the impression that most of the games have bad artwork (which...kind of they do...as tough love).
 

OnPoint

Member
I sort of think it's a higher priority for them to allow the devs like Xona Games, Radiangames etc that are obviously itching to do it to release on XBLA or WP7 as an XBL game. That would mean making it a little bit easier for indies to get published somehow. It's not impossible now, it's just obviously not a cakewalk. It seems that is mostly policy issues to overcome, where adding achievements to indie games would be both technically challenging as well change the entire 'worth' of having achievement points if people can just buy a bunch of 80 point games to increase their score.

I just noticed a trailer / dev document for a game Platformines by one of my favorite devs Magiko Gaming (of Platformance fame)

They are doing exactly what I hope other XNA devs do - take a popular idea and tweak it to be something unique. Here is their take on the mining genre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ0olthCCB0

At this point in the generation, Microsoft should open it up way more than it is right now. Not nearly as open as XBLIG, obviously, but some of these titles are really polished (Orbitron would not have looked out of place as an XBLA title, something that's been said so many times before).

They have a good thing going with the yearly contest, but how many of those projects have seen the light of day so far? Maybe start publishing the top two or three people and see what happens.

Speaking of which here is another interesting column from the dev of Cute Things Dying Violently about his opinion of what people interested in XBLIG development should do:

http://indiegamerchick.com/2011/12/14/tales-from-the-dev-side-standing-out-by-alex-jordan/

Sneak preview:

...

I would say the art for that game is still not as good as most of the other iOS games that are Free or $1, so IMO a huge problem for XBLIG is the impression that most of the games have bad artwork (which...kind of they do...as tough love).

I think a game can be both artsy and retro. Looking at a title like Where Is My Heart on PSN proves that (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmGcnbd8cGc ). Obviously a lot of thought and effort went into the game's aesthetics. Mr Jordan makes a good point though. If you suck at art, there are people who don't. Hire them. Looking at stuff like Pumpkin Smasher on XBLIG makes my brain hurt. It's the kind of game that's not stylishly bad, it's just bad.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
I honestly think there are people out there who would work for freefor the experience, probably just have to find a love connection somehow...deviant art? Where else do indie artists hang out? I remember the artist for Bastion has her portfolio up somewhere on a community site
 

OnPoint

Member
Top Indie Games for the week of December 5 (based on full versions purchased)
1. CastleMiner Z
2. Total Miner: Forge
3. CastleMiner
4. FortressCraft Episode 1
5. The Impossible Game
6. Firing Range
7. Avatar Paintball
8. DLC Quest
9. Avatar Legends
10. The $1 Zombie Game
11. Avatar Rumble
12. Toy Stunt Bike
13. Temple of Dolgorak
14. Flight Adventure 2
15. I MAED A GAM3 W1TH Z0MB1ES!!!1
16. Avatar Laser Wars
17. Trailer Park King
18. 21 Ball Snooker Champion
19. Angry Fish
20. Miner Dig Deep

http://majornelson.com/2011/12/15/live-activity-for-week-of-december-5th/
 
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