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I'll give it to Sony, I would have axed Media Molecule/Dreams by now

T

theindieboy

Member
I think the big thing a lot of people are forgetting/never saw, Dreams is a PSVR title capable of making unlimited vr games/experencies. That will be a major selling point for me, i expect them to release Beta at E3 (its out now/tomorrow thing) and release later in the year, yes agree it has been too long really want to play this game and see what other create in it.
 
semiconscious

semiconscious

Member
Triggerhappytel said:
Yeah, LBP1 & 2 sold like 7+ million copies (this is years old data so maybe much more by now) and probably a shit load of DLC as well. Mm has always deliberately been a small studio and I seriously doubt they're bleeding money like the OP implies. Dreams also has the potential to be massive if it's good and Sony market it properly. It looks like an incredibly comprehensive creation tool.
Click to expand...

seriously? cuz, man, i just don't see how...

my $.02? media molecule's been adrift, creatively, since the first littlebigplanet. i wish them well, but suspect they've gone far down the developer rabbit hole :) ...
 
S

SplitYourInfinities

Member
At a technical level MM is by far the most talented Sony studio, Alex Evans is a genious. Sadly I think they are not that good at making commercial games. Don't get me wrong, their output has been great but it's really hard to sell to consumers. I'm afraid of what will happen after Dreams bombs (because that is totally going to happen).
 
X

xenorevlis

Member
semiconscious said:
seriously? cuz, man, i just don't see how...
Click to expand...
Absolutely. When you have the ability to give gamers and creators levels that wildly exceed LBP in just how varied the gameplay and art styles can be, then show those people just how simple it is to make stuff like that (or simply try stuff other people made), not to mention experience it in VR... You have an incredibly compelling piece of software.

Not to mention the non-gaming aspects of it, or the game development and asset creation side that amounts to almost anyone being able to create something they can 3D print or import into a game engine / modeling software / animation suite of their choosing.
 
C

corn_fest

Member
I don't know, if the creation tools in Dreams are as impressive as they seem to be from the streams and previews we've seen, and if the planned ability to export models into traditional 3D software pans out, I could see an educational PS4/Dreams bundle selling very well.

Looks a million times more intuitive than trying to get students to pick up 3ds max or the like.
 
CuNi

CuNi

Member
Since we don't know the running costs auf Mm, we can't say for sure if it's worth or not. Fact is, so far dreams looks good but like a niche title. I for one won't get it as so far I simply don't see this as anything appealing to me. It rather looks like one of those experimental games that are created to test new mechanics and generally have low adoption rate.

Sony is business which runs on money and not on good will alone. If it still exists, then there is reason for that. I would have wished for them to rather develop a new IP instead of this but that's only my opinion.
 
J

jett

D-Member
How's this about for getting flamed, Media Molecule is one of Sony's worst studios as far as I'm concerned. I haven't played Tearaway, but I didn't like LBP or LBP2 at all. Dreams looks like an actual non-game. I see no semblance of game design in any of the demonstrations they've showed. That game is a complete question mark to me, but it sure is pretty.

In terms of Sony axing Mm, Yoshida just seems to be biased towards certain developers. Studio Liverpool wasn't even given a chance to make something on PS4. Closing Cambridge after putting them to work on a VR-only title was just weird. And then you have JapanStudio as a whole, putting out one mediocre bomb after another, which have now been inexplicably allowed to develop a Knack sequel.
 
AudioEppa

AudioEppa

Member
I'm personally not interested in dreams. But you're crazy if you think Sony should get rid of them.


It's studios like Mm that help make the PlayStation brand what it is. A global household name. Mm games have the ability to reach many gamers of different cultures, ages and maybe even disabilities. Some other studio just don't work out. It's unfortunate, but that's the way shit goes sometimes.
 
BigEmil

BigEmil

Junior Member
jett said:
JapanStudio as a whole, putting out one mediocre bomb after another, which have now been inexplicably allowed to develop a Knack sequel.
Click to expand...
Likely to do with Mark Cerny.
Shame they're not making Ape Escape 4 but instead making Knack 2
Knack 1 likely sold well and they thought they have to make a sequel to that.

Japan Studio are doing pretty well after PS3's life though Soul Sacrifice Delta, Freedom Wars, The Tomorrow Children (codevelop), Bloodborne, Gravity Rush 2, VR games etc great games
 
AudioEppa

AudioEppa

Member
GearFourth said:
Likely to do with Mark Cerny.
Shame they're not making Ape Escape 4 but instead making Knack 2
Knack 1 likely sold well and they thought they have to make a sequel to that.

Japan Studio are doing pretty well after PS3's life though Soul Sacrifice Delta, Freedom Wars, The Tomorrow Children (codevelop), Bloodborne, Gravity Rush 2 great games
Click to expand...



And just here waiting on rain 2.
 
E

Eggbok

Member
Mikey Jr. said:
I have to give Sony some respect here. This was apparently being worked on as early as gamescom..... 2012. Mm has been working on dreams for the past 5 years. My gut says that dreams won't be released on 2017,so we are looking at maybe 6 years of Dev time.
Click to expand...

I don't understand the point of this comment, Horizon started development in 2011 and just came out this year, 6 years. Are you suggesting the length of development should be used as a negative now lol?

Mikey Jr. said:
But Sony has been keeping media molecule alive for awhile to release a very niche title.
I do not see dreams doing very well commercially in my opinion. Looks like one of those very artsy games that does well critically, but flops in sales.
Click to expand...

Why do you expect Dreams to fail due to being an artsy game. It's as if LittleBigPlanet doesn't exist and wasn't successful at all, makes me scratch my head. Sure it's obvious that it won't do Call of Duty numbers but that doesn't mean it's going to flop and fail.

Mikey Jr. said:
Anyways, just surprised Sony has been keeping mm around for as long as they have. From a business perspective, just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I mean, they've closed down entire Dev studios for less. I mean, yeah, drive club didn't set the world on fire and it had problems, but give em a second chance for fuck sakes. At least they put out a game on the ps4.

Long story short,
Hope we see more of dreams at E3. Because what the hell is happening with that game? If they come to E3 with two wands and start sculpting some geezers face, then that game is dead to me, lol.
Click to expand...

Why is it surprising that Sony has kept Mm around? They've been successful with the games they've made. They are a talented and unique studio, why would they shut them down?

They announced Dreams at E3'15, had a stage demo at PGW'15 and then livestreamed the development, progress and creation tools up until October of last year.
 
C

Cymbal Head

Banned
Can someone who has been following the Dreams pre-release media explain to me how they plan to make scripting accessible? It's relatively easy for me to imagine a pipeline for asset creation, but what about things like camera moves, NPC behavior, etc?
 
G

GoldenCrow

Member
MM is one of the few companies I'd never get rid of if I was high up at Sony, unless they were loosing serious money without any return.

They make the unexpected and deliver highly crafted products that have the potential to tap into different markets. I wasn't really a fan of LBP but there is no denying it is a fantastic product that is well executed.

Personally I'd spin them out a bit more with something like Dreams. I'd want it to be an engine capable of creating consumer ready products at its heart that would be available on PS4, Windows, OS X and exportable to many other programs such as Maya, 3DS, C4D, etc and be streamlined to work with other engines such as Unity and Unreal, whilst also being fully functional on its own. Newcomer friendly with features similar to SketchUps warehouse, and then the ability for those that want to get deep into standard technical workflows and toolsets that bridge the gap. All working in VR. I think it makes sense for Sony to have a product that entices people into making games that is friendly to everyone and low cost as it will help add to potential developers in the future that have a connection to the brand beyond play, similar to the programming thing that came with the PS2 (can't for the life of me remember what it was called).
 
D

Dragon1893

Member
If the project wasn't going anywhere after all this time they probably would've canned it by now. My guess is that Yoshida is happy with what he sees everytime he stops by.
If you see potential and there's visible progress it's worth supporting.
It probably does things no other PS4 game does and sony appreciate having variety in their catalog, even knowing that not every game will be a hit.
 
K

Kaako

Felium Defensor
gofreak said:
We do. ~£4m last year. On revenue of ~£8m. Net assets of ~£30m (see: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05665849/filing-history)

If anyone wants to compare to Evo's financials the last few years, they're here too:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03754597/filing-history

Hint: a very different picture
Click to expand...
Thanks for this, should clarify some things for people that bother to read.
MM is hands down one of Sony's most creative studios and it would be fucking foolish for Sony to axe them. Their R&D alone is beneficial to Sony's gaming division, let alone their creative titles. Dreams still looks interesting as hell especially the VR aspect of it. IF delivered right, it'll be the PSVR game to get and will actually move some units as well. They just gotta stick that landing come launch time.

All in all, thank god Sony doesn't think/operate like your average forum poster cause nothing of quality would get made.
 
M

More_Badass

Member
eyeball_kid said:
I could be misremembering, but though they've been working on sculpting tools for a long time, the gameplay logic tools weren't very far along as of last year. They've only demo'd one real game publicly, and that was for a game jam. It was a very simple walk around and solve simple puzzles type of thing. They did start working on the SP campaign last year yes, but my guess is it will be similar to the stuff they've shown in streams -- sort of interactive puppet theater levels, leaning heavy on atmosphere and whimsy.

If they've already got their tools to a level that lets you build Wipeout in Dreams, well I'll be extremely surprised
Click to expand...
I mean, people made first person shooters, third person shooters, top-down shmups, etc. in Little Big Planet. And that was a side-scrolling platformer

I wouldnt underestimate what it is possible with their new engine
 
D

DirgeExtinction

Member
If games like Mario Maker and Minecraft can find success without campaigns, I'm sure Dreams can too. Not to mention, Dreams has a wider variety of genres to create/play.
 
M

Moosichu

Member
Minecraft has shown that a game like Dreams could be successful. Although it is limited to a single console.

Personally? I'm super stoked about it and I'm sure there is a lot in store we haven't heard about yet.
 
H

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
I love this about Sony I personally am not drawn to Dreams yet but I love that there is a diverse lineup for me if my mood/tastes ever change. Variety is vital for me.
 
F

family_guy

Member
I've not really gotten into their games, but I think we need developers like them around to challenge the idea of what a game can be.
 
Dr. Zoidberg

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
I don't know the business details and I don't have an opinion about whether they should be closed, but I don't consider anything they've made to be a truly good game. I've played them all so far due to the visuals and charm and found the gameplay in each to be lacking. As a result I have very little interest in Dreams at this point but I keep an open mind.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Mikey Jr. said:
But Sony has been keeping media molecule alive for awhile to release a very niche title.
I do not see dreams doing very well commercially in my opinion. Looks like one of those very artsy games that does well critically, but flops in sales.
Click to expand...

You can't assume this in a post Minecraft/Mario Maker world. The game may actually be perfect for today's twitch/streaming trends.
 
T

Tonyx

Member
Dynablast said:
OP is Phil Spencer confirmed :p

On a more serious note, if they add VR support, Dreams will be a fantastic asset for PlayStation moving forward.
Click to expand...

I hadn't thought of that but I agree. With VR Dreams could be really interesting. Still a niche game, but very interesting.

And I guess Sony does want to have studios working on VR games so that could work well.
 
R

reson8or

Member
More_Badass said:
I mean, people made first person shooters, third person shooters, top-down shmups, etc. in Little Big Planet. And that was a side-scrolling platformer

I wouldnt underestimate what it is possible with their new engine
Click to expand...


I think this is a very good point. Sony doesn't underestimate MM, and neither should you. They obv. have more insight as to how the game is shaping up and its potential.
 
P

Pizza

Member
I disagree with you, op. There aren't enough studios that have the capability of leaving the bun in the oven until it's finished

Dreams is nuts, it went from a tech demo to a full creation suite and now they're at the point where they have to prove those tools can create a compelling game

It should be out within a couple years, that's not terrible to me. If the character editor is as flexible as robust as the sculpting tools seem to be
 
T

Triggerhappytel

Member
semiconscious said:
seriously? cuz, man, i just don't see how...
Click to expand...

You don't see how an advanced creation tool/engine like Dreams has the potential to be massive in a post-Minecraft world?! They're obviously taking their time to perfect it and they have prior experience in the field with LBP.

semiconscious said:
my $.02? media molecule's been adrift, creatively, since the first littlebigplanet. i wish them well, but suspect they've gone far down the developer rabbit hole :) ...
Click to expand...

How have they been adrift creatively?! They made LBP2 which improved on the first game in pretty much every meaningful way possible, they made Tearaway which is one of the very best games on the Vita and now they're making another 'Play Create Share'-type game which could well move the genre forward. Describe what you mean when you say "[you] suspect they've gone too far down the developer rabbit hole".
 
Castef

Castef

Banned
Heh, never actually liked Little Big Planet. Very good idea, wonderful implementation of the editor. Horrible platforming.
 
J

JayWood2010

Member
Speevy said:
And I don't think it's a stretch to say Rare spent an entire generation making mostly dogshit, but they still exist.
Click to expand...

Viva Pinatas, and Kameo were both great games. Perfect Dark Zero was solid, and Banjo Nuts & Bolts was decent, though not what fans wanted.

Kinect Sports sold very well. Outside of Kinect Sports Rivals and Banjo Nuts & Bolts they have been doing decent.

Rare Replay, and arcade titles also helps them. Then you have Killer Instinct and Conker's Big Reunion. While not developed by Rare, it is Rare IP. Their IP are invaluable.

Not sure why we are talking about Rare in a Media Molecule thread, but regardless I would say you are wrong.

I do not understand Dreams, as from what I have seen it looks bad. Maybe it will turn out well, but I would have hoped Media Molecule went a new direction. I dont think it will sell well based off what Ive seen. On the other hand I do think Sea of Thieves looks good, and it fits in with streaming games on Twitch, and YouTube. Probably not a big time seller either, but looks more appealing.
 
T

Triggerhappytel

Member
Peltz said:
What's UGC?
Click to expand...

User-Generated Content.

Must admit, I haven't heard that acronym in quite a while.

JayWood2010 said:
I do not understand Dreams, as from what I have seen it looks bad. Maybe it will turn out well, but I would have hoped Media Molecule went a new direction. I dont think it will sell well based off what Ive seen. On the other hand I do think Sea of Thieves looks good, and it fits in with streaming games on Twitch, and YouTube.
Click to expand...

So you think Sea of Thieves will do well because of streamers, but you don't think the same of Dreams despite the fact it will have presumably limitless potential for new levels and content like LBP before it?!

Also, what of Dreams have you seen in order to think it looks "bad"?
 
G

get2sammyb

Member
jett said:
How's this about for getting flamed, Media Molecule is one of Sony's worst studios as far as I'm concerned. I haven't played Tearaway, but I didn't like LBP or LBP2 at all. Dreams looks like an actual non-game. I see no semblance of game design in any of the demonstrations they've showed. That game is a complete question mark to me, but it sure is pretty.

In terms of Sony axing Mm, Yoshida just seems to be biased towards certain developers. Studio Liverpool wasn't even given a chance to make something on PS4. Closing Cambridge after putting them to work on a VR-only title was just weird. And then you have JapanStudio as a whole, putting out one mediocre bomb after another, which have now been inexplicably allowed to develop a Knack sequel.
Click to expand...

This is a terrible post. Thank God Yoshida is in charge and not you.
 
Duxxy3

Duxxy3

Member
I probably would have cancelled all of the artsy games.

And that's why I'm not in charge. Those games SHOULD be made. They advance the industry in new ways that Call of Duty and Madden don't.
 
yurinka

yurinka

Member
Media Molecule is a small studio with a lot of people who comes straight from University. So unlike the other studios filled with experienced veterans, it's very cheap to keep running. Sony closed Evolution and Liverpool because they were losing a huge amount of money every year since a lot of time ago, and it is not the case of MM.

In addition to this, the LBP games were a huge success, I assume they generated a huge chunk of money that would keep the studio running for many years without any extra funding needed from Sony. And considering Minecraft, LBP or Mario Maker success, Dreams may be a hit too.

So Sony should be confident with them, and allow them to do whatever they consider. They may be crafting another sleeper hit. Doesn't matter if it is artsy, innovative, niche or doesn't sell a lot, because it may add quality and variety to their catalog, something that always helps indirectly to enlarge your console userbase and influence other games. Like LBP did influencing New Super Mario Bros or Mario Maker.

It doesn't make sense to ask Sony to close one of the most talented, unique, innovative and (very likely) profitable studios they have, or to cancel their main project that looks very interesting.
 
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