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antibolo
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(05-19-2017, 09:14 PM)
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The anime industry is severely oversaturated. Too many studios making too many shows. Seriously, not every super-generic trope-driven light novel needs a goddamn anime adaptation. They need to fucking slow down.

If there was like 5 times less anime per season, the quality would probably jump up significantly. Right now there's like over 30 per season, which is absolutely unsustainable.
Last edited by antibolo; 05-19-2017 at 09:20 PM.
MikeHattsu
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(05-19-2017, 09:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Veitsev

Part of the answer I think is better proliferation of the source material in the West.

The anime studio wouldn't see any of the money from that in most cases, just whoever got the rights to the source material.
iRAWRasaurus
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(05-19-2017, 09:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by kiunchbb

Not enough people buying the blu ray that only included 2 episodes for more than 30 bucks?

There are not much point in collecting them anymore, since majority of the shows every season are just advertisement for unfinished light novel or manga.

Thats my biggest pet peeve regarding anime. The majority are unfinished.
Skittles
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(05-19-2017, 09:17 PM)
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If blu ray prices weren't fucking stupid for no reason they would make a lot more money in general. I should not be paying more than $30-$40 for an entire season (26 episodes).
Veitsev
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(05-19-2017, 09:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by MikeHattsu

The anime studio wouldn't see any of the money from that in most cases, just whoever got the rights to the source material.

I understand that but if the source material is more popular than the anime studios are likely to be better funded.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
(05-19-2017, 09:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by QisTopTier

Adaptations are one of the biggest things in anime, that alone sucks up money due to royalties and shit.

I'd say one of the biggest things fucking anime studios is royalties and shit

I know original works will never be as popular as One Piece or whatever, but are they too risky on average? I enjoy tons of original work, but ofc I probably only hear about the great ones.
daveo42
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(05-19-2017, 09:21 PM)
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You think adding in room and revenue from reruns would actually help? If you aren't actively airing a show then you aren't making money, meaning you're constantly pushing stuff out as cheap as possible and worrying about actually surviving later.

As for sales of physical media, Japan has been fucked on prices for a long time. It's not a new trend.
Divvy
Canadians burned my passport
(05-19-2017, 09:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Veitsev

I understand that but if the source material is more popular than the anime studios are likely to be better funded.

This is not true

The animators on Naruto were notoriously underpaid.

Personally, I imagine this is just production companies being greedy and underpaying studios. It happens all the time in the western industry so i wouldn't be surprised if it was worse in Japan.
Sibersk Esto
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(05-19-2017, 09:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lumination

What is the difference between successful cartoons in the US and anime in Japan? From what I can tell, animators are basically paid in peanuts and the studios STILL struggle to make a profit. Why are they not making enough income? I always hear that their main revenue stream is blurays, but why is that? There are the US cartoons that are sustained by merchandise, but aren't they usually just supported by commercials like other TV shows?

Originally Posted by QisTopTier

Adaptations are one of the biggest things in anime, that alone sucks up money due to royalties and shit.

I'd say one of the biggest things fucking anime studios is royalties and shit

The majority of the anime that we know about that isn't Doraemon, Detective Conan, Pretty Cure, One Piece, Sazae-san etc. airs super late at night so that tv networks have some way to fill out that late night spot. Most of these shows make no real money through advertising/ratings and have to rely on Blu-Ray and merch. Plus, anime studios are independent contractors scouted and hired by a production committee, who underpay them.

Production committees are why so many adaptations get made; they're advertisements for whatever a member of the production committee already owns that could use a sales bump.
Last edited by Sibersk Esto; 05-20-2017 at 10:26 PM.
antibolo
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(05-19-2017, 09:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Orcastar

Just outsource animation to India or the Philippines or wherever. Problem solved.

Japan already outsources a lot to Korea. It's not a miracle solution.
Jeffrey
Member
(05-19-2017, 09:23 PM)
Why not all just go cg. Kemono friends looks like a college project, but it's quite popular and a fun watch.
MikeHattsu
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(05-19-2017, 09:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Divvy

This is not true

The animators on Naruto were notoriously underpaid.

Personally, I imagine this is just production companies being greedy and underpaying studios. It happens all the time in the western industry so i wouldn't be surprised if it was worse in Japan.

Yeah, the only reason the anime industry even got started in the first place was because it was cheap to make.
.JayZii
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(05-19-2017, 09:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Why not all just go cg. Kemono friends looks like a college project, but it's quite popular and a fun watch.

The idea of anime going full CG is incredibly depressing.
Trufflesguy Law
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(05-19-2017, 09:27 PM)
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Yeah, looks like the bubble's about to pop. Things are about to get interesting. But I guess that's what happens when everyone churns out a show every season hoping they're the next mega hit.
Divvy
Canadians burned my passport
(05-19-2017, 09:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Why not all just go cg. Kemono friends looks like a college project, but it's quite popular and a fun watch.

CG is not necessarily cheaper.

I don't know what 3D software they use over there, but the industry standard here is Maya and that costs something like 2000 USD a year for one license for one computer.

When you're only paying an animator 500 USD a month, are you really going to save that much? Especially when you're going to have to expand your pipeline to include modellers, riggers, texture artists, lighters, etc...
antibolo
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(05-19-2017, 09:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Why not all just go cg. Kemono friends looks like a college project, but it's quite popular and a fun watch.

There would need to be a huge cultural shift in the industry for that to happen. As it stands right now, CG in anime is only used as a time and cost cutting measure with very little care being put into it. CG-only shows all look like garbage, and CG elements in non-CG shows are always janky crap meant to cut down production time in complex scenes, and not to actually look better.

Shirobako had a great episode about it. The stigma on CG is very real in anime studios.

(btw anyone who cares about anime needs to watch Shirobako asap if they haven't yet)
Last edited by antibolo; 05-19-2017 at 09:34 PM.
MikeHattsu
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(05-19-2017, 09:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Divvy

CG is not necessarily cheaper.

When you're only paying an animator 500 USD a month, are you really going to save that much? Especially when you're going to have to expand your pipeline to include modellers, riggers, texture artists, lighters, etc...

Well... Kemono Friends is a special case though :p

https://mobile.twitter.com/CanipaSho...46145196273664

Made by 10 people.
Over 500 days.
The budget was so limited that they even didn't make the bus wheels spin in the Opening.

shira
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(05-19-2017, 09:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Orcastar

Just outsource animation to India or the Philippines or wherever. Problem solved.

You need talent.
CG is also becoming cheaper
zelas
Member
(05-19-2017, 09:40 PM)
What did they expect to happen by catering largely to the most off putting parts of the market and chasing away fans who now have more money to spend? I remember a time when anime had greater reach, appealing to those who just wanted good tv. There were all kinds of options. Now the only thing that non anime fans might ever hear about is Attack on Titan and even that has dropped the ball completely.
antibolo
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(05-19-2017, 09:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by daveo42

You think adding in room and revenue from reruns would actually help?

From my understanding, reruns are not a thing in Japan. Unless there's a remaster something airs once and then that's it. No syndication or anything.
Divvy
Canadians burned my passport
(05-19-2017, 09:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by MikeHattsu

Well... Kemono Friends is a special case though :p

https://mobile.twitter.com/CanipaSho...46145196273664

Yeah, I mean if it worked for them, then more power to them.

I just mean in the broader sense it doesn't always make financial sense to move to 3D, at least, until Blender starts taking over.

Also there's probably not that much 3D talent as a result of cultural biases that antibolo mentioned. Which is stupid, since modern animes are animated like trash anyways. I stopped watching a lot of them since they're like 90% panned stills, or a still shot with only lip animation.
Orcastar
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(05-19-2017, 09:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by ShinySylvee

I was under the impression that a lot of animation (Both Western and Japanese) outsourced a lot of the tedious and work-intensive parts of the animation process to companies in Korea and the Phillipines. It definitely happens with a lot of Westerm shows and I heard they did it for Anike a lot too.

Originally Posted by antibolo

Japan already outsources a lot to Korea. It's not a miracle solution.

Yeah, I wasn't really being serious. I know western animation studios outsource a lot to Korea and the Phillipines, but assumed that it might be less common in Japan.

As someone who rarely watches anime, I've never understood how the industry is as big as it seems to be. I mean every time I happen to browse Crunchyroll I'm amazed at just how much stuff is being released. It just doesn't seem sustainable.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
(05-19-2017, 09:51 PM)
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Moe ruined anime.
daveo42
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(05-19-2017, 09:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by antibolo

From my understanding, reruns are not a thing in Japan. Unless there's a remaster something airs once and then that's it. No syndication or anything.

That's the point. What if reruns were a thing in Japan? Would that help with costs for and issues with modern anime?
Sibersk Esto
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(05-19-2017, 10:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by daveo42

That's the point. What if reruns were a thing in Japan? Would that help with costs for and issues with modern anime?

Maybe? But it's unlikely because anime functions like brokered programming, as in, buying a late timeslot like an infomercial. And it's doubtful that the already pitiful late night anime ratings will get better with reruns.
Brokun
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(05-19-2017, 10:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Skittles

If blu ray prices weren't fucking stupid for no reason they would make a lot more money in general. I should not be paying more than $30-$40 for an entire season (26 episodes).

Came here to say this. If anime was priced reasonably they would have far more sell through and less piracy.
JonnyDBrit
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(05-19-2017, 10:32 PM)
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Regarding the issue of saturation of the market, well, here's a pretty relevant tweet by Thomas Romain:
https://twitter.com/Thomasintokyo/st...40397136355329

That was 341 anime series airing in 2015, 233 of which were new for that year. There's simply not enough people to go around while shows don't make enough money to pay them, which provides very little incentive for more people to join the industry.
J-Tier
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(05-19-2017, 10:33 PM)
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A shame, three in four of them suck. There are only 3 or 4 each season that I follow religiously.
The Silver
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(05-19-2017, 10:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kinyou

You'd think with anime being so easily available internationally through streaming services, studios would make a bigger profit.

The pirates still offer a better convenient service
Pop-O-Matic
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(05-19-2017, 10:45 PM)
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Anime fans are gonna look back on this period like comic fans look back on the 90s.
Fat4all
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(05-19-2017, 10:45 PM)
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they isn't enough animators to go around as well

overworked as fuk
jstripes
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(05-19-2017, 10:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Skittles

If blu ray prices weren't fucking stupid for no reason they would make a lot more money in general. I should not be paying more than $30-$40 for an entire season (26 episodes).

The '90s, and Japan today, would like to have a word with you.

Originally Posted by JonnyDBrit

Regarding the issue of saturation of the market, well, here's a pretty relevant tweet by Thomas Romain:
https://twitter.com/Thomasintokyo/st...40397136355329



That was 341 anime series airing in 2015, 233 of which were new for that year. There's simply not enough people to go around while shows don't make enough money to pay them, which provides very little incentive for more people to join the industry.

Jesus.

There is literally no reason for that much anime.
Nepenthe
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(05-19-2017, 11:00 PM)
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It's basically a domestic sweatshop industry. If nothing else, they need to cut back on the amount of shows airing every season and focus on restructuring costs that would be spent otherwise towards higher quality content and wages. Then just keep farming out your back catalogue of anime 1000-year old dragon whores to merchandising shops.
antibolo
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(05-19-2017, 11:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by JonnyDBrit

Regarding the issue of saturation of the market, well, here's a pretty relevant tweet by Thomas Romain:
https://twitter.com/Thomasintokyo/st...40397136355329



That was 341 anime series airing in 2015, 233 of which were new for that year. There's simply not enough people to go around while shows don't make enough money to pay them, which provides very little incentive for more people to join the industry.

I wonder what caused that huge spike in 2006?
Madao
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(05-19-2017, 11:35 PM)
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i just hope they survive long enough to adapt all Jojo parts and finish Gintama and One Piece.
Savitar
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(05-19-2017, 11:36 PM)
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I recall reading some time ago that the issue partly may stem as far back as when anime first started, or around the original Astro Boy. The person in charge basically undersold how much it would take to get the animation done, to do so as cheaply as possible. What he may or may not have known was that the people who were paying for the bill had been prepared to offer a much greater sum for the animation. So almost right out of the gate the standard for animators was dismal and I suppose the market followed that since.

Maybe someone here knows of the article?

And yes.....fuck Moe.
petran79
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(05-19-2017, 11:52 PM)
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Dont tallented animators usually prefer or move to the more lucrative video game industry?
Sibersk Esto
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(05-20-2017, 01:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by Savitar

I recall reading some time ago that the issue partly may stem as far back as when anime first started, or around the original Astro Boy. The person in charge basically undersold how much it would take to get the animation done, to do so as cheaply as possible. What he may or may not have known was that the people who were paying for the bill had been prepared to offer a much greater sum for the animation. So almost right out of the gate the standard for animators was dismal and I suppose the market followed that since.

Maybe someone here knows of the article?

And yes.....fuck Moe.

This one?

All the respect in the world to Tezuka, but it's insane that the precedent he started is still in effect.
kurahador
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(05-20-2017, 01:52 AM)
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Time for cutbacks Japan.
Savitar
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(05-20-2017, 02:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sibersk Esto

This one?

All the respect in the world to Tezuka, but it's insane that the precedent he started is still in effect.

That touches on events only a little bit, the one I read was much more in depth about how it all began and what happened. Really worth the read if it can be found.
Azuran
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(05-20-2017, 02:07 AM)
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There's point in spending time and money watching anime when it's nothing more than advertising for manga.

There also needs to be less anime made. There's so much niche crap out there that I refuse to believe it has an audience larger than six people.
frontovik
Member
(05-20-2017, 02:09 AM)
So that's why they failed to do the latest Berserk anime justice :(
matt360
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(05-20-2017, 02:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by Akuun

The quota system is pretty dumb, yeah.

I was once offered a job transcribing things that paid $1 per page of text. I was like "lol, fuck that."

Could they even keep a straight face when they told you those numbers? That is fucking ridiculous.
faridmon
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(05-20-2017, 02:26 AM)
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Hopefully this is a good news in regards to changing an already stagnated and old-fashioned industry. Obviously its a an industry that cannot live banking on Otakus with their awful fanservice and Harem shows and I really hope Anime is drawn to attract the mass market.
Master_Of_Illusion
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(05-20-2017, 02:30 AM)
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There is a way to fix this, but anime studios are too blind to their own faults to see this...


Step 1: Cut down on making cutesy cheesecake shows just for the sake of pandering to horny weebs. You're not gonna make money by catering to such a small niche. Put your resources elsewhere.

Step 2: Don't make a series based on a manga unless you have enough material to adapt. You're spreading the current workforce thin by constantly making 12 episode seasons for a million manga titles every year instead of waiting until there's enough material in a title for 26 to 50 episodes and banging it all out at once.

Step 3: Set up a minimum wage / train staff. The reasons why there's not enough animators is because the idea of being a borderline-slave is totally unappealing. It'll be an investment at first, but set up a decent wage to lure potential employees in...and then properly train staff so they can work faster and more efficiently with less broadcast errors (which would otherwise take up man hours to fix for the Blu-Ray).
Opto
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(05-20-2017, 02:36 AM)
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Ironically, if you want to see the rough side of the anime industry, you can watch Shirobako and Girlish Number.

Shirobako is more celebratory of what anime can do, while Girlish Number is heavily critical of the cash grab efforts of producers that don't give a shit
Slayven
gimme some o dat God-crafted alabaster greatness
(05-20-2017, 02:38 AM)
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So no La Blue Girl anniversary movie?
Volimar
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(05-20-2017, 02:41 AM)
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Without Ban Puncher around to spam anime gifs, the market will buckle.
LeleSocho
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(05-20-2017, 02:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by JonnyDBrit

Regarding the issue of saturation of the market, well, here's a pretty relevant tweet by Thomas Romain:
https://twitter.com/Thomasintokyo/st...40397136355329



That was 341 anime series airing in 2015, 233 of which were new for that year. There's simply not enough people to go around while shows don't make enough money to pay them, which provides very little incentive for more people to join the industry.

The only thing i get out from this is that they really should make a quality over quantity approach.
Industry has to somehow shrink to be healthier and more successful.
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(05-20-2017, 02:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by Master_Of_Illusion

Step 1: Cut down on making cutesy cheesecake shows just for the sake of pandering to horny weebs. You're not gonna make money by catering to such a small niche. Put your resources elsewhere.

This is currently their only source of reliable revenue. That shit pays for the passion projects like Showa Genroku Rakugo or Aku no Hana, which are financial failures (Aku no Hana moreso than Showa Genroku).

Step 2: Don't make a series based on a manga unless you have enough material to adapt. You're spreading the current workforce thin by constantly making 12 episode seasons for a million manga titles every year instead of waiting until there's enough material in a title for 26 to 50 episodes and banging it all out at once.

This is up to the owners of the original property, not the the studios themselves. The studios don't waltz up to Oda and go "we want to make some more One Piece", it's Shueisha who goes to Toei and ask for more episodes whenever Shueisha feels like it.

Step 3: Set up a minimum wage / train staff. The reasons why there's not enough animators is because the idea of being a borderline-slave is totally unappealing. It'll be an investment at first, but set up a decent wage to lure potential employees in...and then properly train staff so they can work faster and more efficiently with less broadcast errors (which would otherwise take up man hours to fix for the Blu-Ray).

Broadcast errors are almost wholly due to time constraints which is itself a product of the relationship between studios, publishers, and broadcasters, and not because there isn't enough talent to go around (this is true but a separate issue).

BahiJD, a notable animator from Austria who broke into the industry, drew these amazing cuts for Ping Pong during its production:


But they didn't make it to broadcast, because they just didn't have enough time to inbetween all the frames, basically the lowest level work for animators.

@bahijd
I did over 20 cuts, but they didn't make it into the show because of tight TV schedule, very sad for me but I have to keep moving forward.

Last edited by Haly; 05-20-2017 at 02:52 AM.

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