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Hindl
Member
(05-19-2017, 07:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by BHK3

There was a thread where everyone was shrugging off cocaine and saying it wasn't as bad as something heroin.

It isn't. Cocaine is certainly not good but compared to something like heroin it's nothing

To clarify: Cocaine is addictive. Cocaine can kill you. Cocaine is dangerous if abused. Cocaine is not in the same league as heroin
Last edited by Hindl; 05-19-2017 at 07:38 PM.
LeleSocho
Member
(05-19-2017, 07:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by HStallion

Except some people do need drugs to survive. Many people need Marijuana for a variety of reasons whether its pain relief for some or seizures for others.

Never been against those cases and it would never have been a problem if those were the only instances people used drugs.
People are not going to fool anybody by hiding their support for drugs behind the very rare medical use of some substances and yet you see stuff like "I support the right of use of substances like cocaine because there's people that might need weed to have a better life" pretty much everywhere.

Case in point something like the post above mine.
Last edited by LeleSocho; 05-19-2017 at 07:39 PM.
see5harp
Member
(05-19-2017, 07:37 PM)

Originally Posted by entremet

Ah, so I'm guessing these are ppl already addicted? I meant more getting addicted via cough syrup.

Could happen. I don't know, but from what I've read it's more painkillers that cause the addiction.

People are getting addicted to opiates in a lot of different ways. Vicodin and extra strength Vicodin or Norco isn't even that strong in normal doses and that's stuff that even kids get regularly. Guys like Brett Favre were popping like 20 to 30 of those a night. You're only supposed to take one every 6 hours.
Ray Wonder
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(05-19-2017, 07:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by BHK3

There was a thread where everyone was shrugging off cocaine and saying it wasn't as bad as something heroin.

I've been to parties, where at least 60% of the people there took bumps. Cocaine in moderation can be pretty safe, and not life ruining. Heroin, however. You take it, your life is basically fucked.
wwm0nkey
Member
(05-19-2017, 07:38 PM)
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Live in Cincinnati, it's been a problem for a long time, even kids in my high school died of an ODing on it. sad that it's getting worse
besada
#NotMyAmerica
(05-19-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by BHK3

There was a thread where everyone was shrugging off cocaine and saying it wasn't as bad as something heroin.

There was a thread where some users were shrugging off cocaine. Other users were disagreeing with them. Neither implies support of the whole forum.
HStallion
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(05-19-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by LeleSocho

Never been against those cases and it would never have been a problem if those were the only instances people used drugs.
People are not going to fool anybody by hiding their support for drugs behind the very rare medical use of some substances and yet you see stuff like "I support the right of use of substances like cocaine because there's people that might need weed to have a better life" pretty much everywhere.

Drugs like MDMA have been shown to do wonders for those suffering from PTSD. Just because they get abused by some doesn't mean they can't be amazing solutions for the problems of others.
Count Dookkake
Member
(05-19-2017, 07:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jack Scofield

What's the story with this?

It's a small world.
LeleSocho
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(05-19-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by HStallion

Drugs like MDMA have been shown to do wonders for those suffering from PTSD. Just because they get abused by some doesn't mean they can't be amazing solutions for the problems of others.

What you said doesn't go against what i've said.
Edit: But let me further explain... just because it can be beneficial to some in very rare cases it doesn't mean that should as free and unregulated as other more harmless stuff.
Last edited by LeleSocho; 05-19-2017 at 07:44 PM.
siddx
Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
(05-19-2017, 07:43 PM)
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About ten years ago the small town I lived in had a huge issue with people breaking into homes to steal pain pills. Now all those same people have moved on to heroin since the pain pills are no longer prescribed to everyone who comes in with so much as a back ache. The drug companies and their doctor shills are directly responsible for all of this. It's fucking shameful.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
(05-19-2017, 07:48 PM)
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Thanks Purdue Pharmaceuticals and Abbott Laboratories

Lawyers for the state of West Virginia seized on the Abbott marketing materials as evidence the company misled doctors on the key issue of abuse.

“Abbott’s ‘King of Pain’ taught his ‘royal crusaders’ pseudoscience about OxyContin ‘minimizing the risk of dependence,’ and lowering euphoria,” they wrote in a motion unsealed as part of the STAT request. “However, the ‘selling sage’ turns out to have minimal knowledge of pharmacology, and admitted he had no basis to make these statements he passed along to his ‘royal crusaders.’”

Secret trove reveals bold ‘crusade’ to make OxyContin a blockbuster
entremet
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(05-19-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by siddx

About ten years ago the small town I lived in had a huge issue with people breaking into homes to steal pain pills. Now all those same people have moved on to heroin since the pain pills are no longer prescribed to everyone who comes in with so much as a back ache. The drug companies and their doctor shills are directly responsible for all of this. It's fucking shameful.

I considered doing pharma sales but my conscience wouldn't let me lol.
Rayne009
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(05-19-2017, 07:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angelus Errare

People in charge don't do heroin.

You == the group most effected by the heroin epidemic. America didn't care when it was the "others" with the heroin problems, throw them in jail, etc etc. Now that shit is ravaging middle America and we gotta do something about it, but sadly most of America doesn't care. Why? See the quote for more information.

Racism - Even when it hurts them brown/black folks, it ultimately ends up hurting the rest of America as well.

One day folks gonna learn.

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic. Everytime my doctor tried to give me opiates I normally used them for less than half the time I should've because I knew I didn't want to end up being a druggie. I endured pain rather than risk addiction. If someone else couldn't do that? Welp.
Hindl
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(05-19-2017, 07:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic. Everytime my doctor tried to give me opiates I normally used them for less than half the time I should've because I knew I didn't want to end up being a druggie. I endured pain rather than risk addiction. If someone else couldn't do that? Welp.

Not everyone has that same awareness that you do. And for most Americans they'll trust what the doctor says, they aren't knowledgable about this stuff
Hale-XF11
Member
(05-19-2017, 07:59 PM)
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The war on drugs is a war on personal freedom, which continues to this day. Never forget that.

If people were free to cultivate and use safer substances such as cannabis or psilocybin, we'd have far less people abusing opioids and heroin and we'd be living in a much healthier, happier world.
Aaronology
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(05-19-2017, 07:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic. Everytime my doctor tried to give me opiates I normally used them for less than half the time I should've because I knew I didn't want to end up being a druggie. I endured pain rather than risk addiction. If someone else couldn't do that? Welp.

I wonder what other stuff you don't care about given this particular mindset.
Malreyn
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:01 PM)

Originally Posted by entremet

Ah, so I'm guessing these are ppl already addicted? I meant more getting addicted via cough syrup.

Could happen. I don't know, but from what I've read it's more painkillers that cause the addiction.

for practitioners, when they have to deal with patients, its really difficult determine if they are there for a legitimate problem or for drug seeking...they could prescribe something that seems like a reasonable amount if they were to take it correctly to last them for a week but abusers would go through it in a single day
jay
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(05-19-2017, 08:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic. Everytime my doctor tried to give me opiates I normally used them for less than half the time I should've because I knew I didn't want to end up being a druggie. I endured pain rather than risk addiction. If someone else couldn't do that? Welp.

What is the solution you can draw from this logic? Yell at people to make better decisions?
Michael F. Assbender
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic. Everytime my doctor tried to give me opiates I normally used them for less than half the time I should've because I knew I didn't want to end up being a druggie. I endured pain rather than risk addiction. If someone else couldn't do that? Welp.

I think you should spend some time studying the neurological causes of addiction.

For some people, it's not as simple as "this is bad so I shouldn't," no matter how stupid their decisions may appear to outsiders.
I H8 Memes
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by x-Lundz-x

Lock up the dealers, not the users. We need to get them help.

Weve done that for 40 years. If arresting people could end drug addiction then nobody would be addicted to drugs now. Just read the 1st paragraph. Theres always another dealer.
shira
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by entremet

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...ing-in-america

Crazy stuff. Heroin and meth are doing major damage in smaller town America. Cartels getting involved is nuts.

I'm kind of curious who makes more: the cartels or big pharma
see5harp
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:14 PM)

Originally Posted by Rayne009

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic. Everytime my doctor tried to give me opiates I normally used them for less than half the time I should've because I knew I didn't want to end up being a druggie. I endured pain rather than risk addiction. If someone else couldn't do that? Welp.

I think plenty of people probably feel this way until it affects them directly.
The Hamburglar
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(05-19-2017, 08:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by cj_iwakura

It's a message board. Deal with it. This board needs to stop encouraging recreational drug use. It is a problem.

Because people's lives have been ruined due to threads like I'm high as a kite right now. Sure thing buddy.
Muppet of a Man
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:17 PM)
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Funny how marijuana was always branded the so-called "gateway" drug by law enforcement, but it actually winds up being legal prescriptiion painkillers, painkillers primarily associated with white America at that.

Bet the law enforcement in these states wishes recreational marijuana was legal there now. Guarantee you there'd be a massive downturn in illicit and gang activity, violent crime, and overdosing, all while raising massive amounts of tax money for the state.

I live in one of the liberal states that has made recreational marijuana legal, and we witness the benefits I mention on a daily basis. We are also one of the least religious states. All the conservative, religious states where marijuana is illegal do this to themselves. They literally shoot themselves in the foot in the name of theocracy.

Bonus info: I don't even use marijuana, and I fully support its legalization.
Last edited by Muppet of a Man; 05-19-2017 at 08:19 PM.
Ray Wonder
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(05-19-2017, 08:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic. Everytime my doctor tried to give me opiates I normally used them for less than half the time I should've because I knew I didn't want to end up being a druggie. I endured pain rather than risk addiction. If someone else couldn't do that? Welp.

Hmm, if you were in more debilitating pain, and needed to take them long enough to get hooked, you'd probably have a different opinion. Not taking them because you can take the pain, just means you weren't in bad enough pain to have to take them.
PixlNinja
Junior Member
(05-19-2017, 08:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hindl

What do they have? NJ MM is only for extremely serious/terminal conditions, not sure fibromyalgia qualifies

It doesn't. My mother has been going back and forth from doctor to doctor to rheumatologist trying to get somewhere with it. No dice.
jay
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ray Wonder

Hmm, if you were in more debilitating pain, and needed to take them long enough to get hooked, you'd probably have a different opinion. Not taking them because you can take the pain, just means you weren't in bad enough pain to have to take them.

He made the decision not to be in more debilitating pain. It's called personal responsibility.
Rayne009
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hindl

Not everyone has that same awareness that you do. And for most Americans they'll trust what the doctor says, they aren't knowledgable about this stuff

True.

Originally Posted by Aaronology

I wonder what other stuff you don't care about given this particular mindset.

Quite a bit like most people I expect. It's not some rare outlook.

Originally Posted by jay

What is the solution you can draw from this logic? Yell at people to make better decisions?

Yell? No. I'm very pro giving people information about harmful things and if they still decide to go along with it to welp that's their choice.

Originally Posted by plop

I think you should spend some time studying the neurological causes of addiction.

For some people, it's not as simple as "this is bad so I shouldn't," no matter how stupid their decisions may appear to outsiders.

Assuming I'm not fully aware I have an addictive personality and thus turned said addiction towards things that don't destroy my mind. I grew up with drug addicts. You're not forced (except in very rare cases) to take that first hit and there's almost always other options.

Originally Posted by see5harp

I think plenty of people probably feel this way until it affects them directly.

Eh growing up influenced by that is probably would colored my views.
see5harp
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:24 PM)
I have the feeling some people don't realize that there are legit reasons for someone to be prescribed powerful pain medications. I have an incredible pain tolerance based on my own personal experiences, but I haven't had major surgery or had vertebrae separated, etc.
Rayne009
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(05-19-2017, 08:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ray Wonder

Hmm, if you were in more debilitating pain, and needed to take them long enough to get hooked, you'd probably have a different opinion. Not taking them because you can take the pain, just means you weren't in bad enough pain to have to take them.

I had 24 hour severe migraines for a year period. I stopped taking the pain meds about a month and if you seriously think I didn't lay in my bed sobbing because I was in such pain but refusing to take the meds because I KNEW what the shit did to people? Nope. I made a short term sacrifice for long term gain.
phanphare
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(05-19-2017, 08:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

I had 24 hour severe migraines for a year period. I stopped taking the pain meds about a month and if you seriously think I didn't lay in my bed sobbing because I was in such pain but refusing to take the meds because I KNEW what the shit did to people? Nope. I made a short term sacrifice for long term gain.

that's cool and all but you have to understand most people yield to the trained professionals that give them their prescriptions and instructions
Rayne009
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(05-19-2017, 08:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by phanphare

that's cool and all but you have to understand most people yield to the trained professionals that give them their prescriptions and instructions

Which is why I'd support people being informed of their options and the risk and making it illegal for any doctor to prescribe opiates without informing their client in person of the effects.

(That and making it harder to prescribe period).
Dreams-Visions
I'm mad as hell but this sandwich is delicious
(05-19-2017, 08:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angelus Errare

People in charge don't do heroin.

You == the group most effected by the heroin epidemic. America didn't care when it was the "others" with the heroin problems, throw them in jail, etc etc. Now that shit is ravaging middle America and we gotta do something about it, but sadly most of America doesn't care. Why? See the quote for more information.

Racism - Even when it hurts them brown/black folks, it ultimately ends up hurting the rest of America as well.

One day folks gonna learn.

My boy is always on time.

Originally Posted by NeonBlack

It's kinda disturbing seeing government officials now wanting to help. Jails been the "correct" way to handle this for decades.

Well it's affecting white folk now so we gotta come up with a solution ya know. Trust us: us people of color for damn sure have noticed the change in language surrounding drug usage now that little Johnny and Megan are getting caught with heroin and meth problems. Those 3 strike policies and years in jail are too harsh a penalty for them.
phanphare
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(05-19-2017, 08:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

Which is why I'd support people being informed of their options and the risk and making it illegal for any doctor to prescribe opiates without informing their client in person of the effects.

(That and making it harder to prescribe period).

I was more taking issue with your "got mine, fuck yall" mentality seen in this post

Yeah it makes me an awful person but it's why I personally don't really care about the heroin epidemic

I loathe this kind of mentality
Rayne009
Member
(05-19-2017, 08:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by phanphare

I was more taking issue with your "got mine, fuck yall" mentality seen in this post

I loathe this kind of mentality

*shrug* I'm by no means trying to stop them from getting information and I'm pro laws that make it mandatory to inform people. That said no I'm not gonna feel sorry for someone who takes heroin especially nowadays where there's so much information available.
entremet
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(05-19-2017, 08:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dreams-Visions

My boy is always on time.



Well it's affecting white folk now so we gotta come up with a solution ya know. Trust us: us people of color for damn sure have noticed the change in language surrounding drug usage now that little Johnny and Megan are getting caught with heroin and meth problems. Those 3 strike policies and years in jail are too harsh a penalty for them.

Yep. White supremacy is real.
phanphare
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(05-19-2017, 08:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

*shrug* I'm by no means trying to stop them from getting information and I'm pro laws that make it mandatory to inform people. That said no I'm not gonna feel sorry for someone who takes heroin especially nowadays where there's so much information available.

that's what I'm getting at and said before. most people are going to yield to the trained professionals who give them their prescription and dosage instructions. once you're addicted rational thought goes out the window. your lack of empathy and perceived superiority is alarming to me. all because you came out on the other side unscathed.
Hindl
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(05-19-2017, 08:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dreams-Visions

My boy is always on time.



Well it's affecting white folk now so we gotta come up with a solution ya know. Trust us: us people of color for damn sure have noticed the change in language surrounding drug usage now that little Johnny and Megan are getting caught with heroin and meth problems. Those 3 strike policies and years in jail are too harsh a penalty for them.

Not all drugs. The language has changed around drug usage regarding the drugs that little Johnny and Megan use only. You won't hear these guys talking about weed or crack in the same way
OG Shaka Zulu
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(05-19-2017, 08:48 PM)
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Do D-Money, Shifty, and Smoothie ever take a break from slanging H?
Jzero
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(05-19-2017, 08:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by LeleSocho

Less than 10 posts and people are already piling on a guy who said drugs are bad.
Impressive.

He literally does this every single thread that mentions drugs.
Rayne009
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(05-19-2017, 08:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by phanphare

that's what I'm getting at and said before. most people are going to yield to the trained professionals who give them their prescription and dosage instructions. once you're addicted rational thought goes out the window. your lack of empathy and perceived superiority is alarming to me. all because you came out on the other side unscathed.

I was raised by a heroin addict and was emotionally and physically abused by her. So you can miss me with this came out of the other side unscathed. I'm well aware of my failings and try to work around them.

And the note of dosage instructions every doctor who offered me opiates has told me I would need to scale back the meds after a certain point in time to wean me off (The only exception was when my wisdom teeth were infected and growing into my other teeth and pulled since I only got enough for like 2 weeks since I scheduled the pulling immediately). I've never had any doctor tell me to completely stop taking any addictive medicine cold turkey if they gave me more than that (even if that's often exactly what I did) without that weaning period. So either they're going to hacks or they're not listening to their doctors. That said I have always expressed concern about the meds being addictive so maybe it was that.

That said taking anyone's word as law is absurd to begin with. There's a reason you should get a second/third opinion from other doctors. Doctor's are just as fallible as anyone else.
Last edited by Rayne009; 05-19-2017 at 09:00 PM.
phanphare
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(05-19-2017, 09:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

I was raised by a heroin addict and was emotionally and physically abused by her. So you can miss me with this came out of the other side unscathed. I'm well aware of my failings and try to work around them.

And the note of dosage instructions every doctor who offered me opiates has told me I would need to scale back the meds after a certain point in time to wean me off (The only exception was when my wisdom teeth were infected and growing into my other teeth and pulled since I only got enough for like 2 weeks since I scheduled the pulling immediately). I've never had any doctor tell me to completely stop taking any addictive medicine cold turkey if they gave me more than that (even if that's often exactly what I did) without that weaning period. So either they're going to hacks or they're not listening to their doctors. That said I have always expressed concern about the meds being addictive so maybe it was that.

That said taking anyone's word as law is absurd to begin with. There's a reason you should get a second/third opinion from other doctors. Doctor's are just as fallible as anyone else.

I'm sorry to hear that and I have a better understanding of where you're coming from

I still loathe your "welp" mentality though due to my own personal experiences with addiction and the lives affected
Rayne009
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(05-19-2017, 09:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by phanphare

I'm sorry to hear that and I have a better understanding of where you're coming from

I still loathe your "welp" mentality though due to my own personal experiences with addiction and the lives affected

Yes ultimately both our views were from personal experience. I don't fault anyone for their view on this because people come to different conclusions and that's fair enough.

That said I would never be against the decriminalization of drugs (should've happened a long time ago and would've spared my family a lot of issues) and programs that actually inform about drug's impact on one's life and the lives of others (without going into scare mongering like certain programs do) while providing supportive services for those who want to be better informed and use that info to better their lives and others.

It's just I'm rather welp towards it.
see5harp
Member
(05-19-2017, 09:13 PM)

Originally Posted by Rayne009

I had 24 hour severe migraines for a year period. I stopped taking the pain meds about a month and if you seriously think I didn't lay in my bed sobbing because I was in such pain but refusing to take the meds because I KNEW what the shit did to people? Nope. I made a short term sacrifice for long term gain.

Why did you start taking them in the first place? Since you know you gotta addictive personality and all?
Roxkis
Junior Member
(05-19-2017, 09:15 PM)
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I have a friend who used to be in these streets and he noted that heroin became the star of the show for cartels when weed started becoming legal in places. People don't want to pony up for that Mexican weed when there are growers in the states that grow their weed corps with love and care. So the cartels had to replace their missing weeds sales with cheap heroin. Which would probably hit places that aren't weed friendly a lot harder then place that are.


I think if they legalized weed everywhere, not as many people would turn to harsher drugs for some pain relief. But there is profit in people's suffering, so maybe that's a pipe dream.
Ray Wonder
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(05-19-2017, 09:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rayne009

I had 24 hour severe migraines for a year period. I stopped taking the pain meds about a month and if you seriously think I didn't lay in my bed sobbing because I was in such pain but refusing to take the meds because I KNEW what the shit did to people? Nope. I made a short term sacrifice for long term gain.

You're a tough cookie, lots of people couldn't take that.
Rayne009
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(05-19-2017, 09:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by see5harp

Why did you start taking them in the first place? Since you know you gotta addictive personality and all?

Because I wanted to be able to sleep honestly. They were waking me up every few hours and I couldn't even leave the house let alone focus in class. The meds at least toned them down enough so I could function. (They didn't even completely remove the pain either which just made it easier for me to kick them to the curb. If they had it'd been more tempting to stay on them). Granted afterwards I regretted taking them at all because the withdrawal was a bitch.

That said if you're trying to say I'm against opiates period I'm not. I never said I was. The addictive properties are my main concern and I'm well aware people will have to be on them near permanently because of pain (my grandmother with her sickle cell is one such example). You're not forced to take heroin for pain however. (And yes I'm aware the addiction causes pain. After I stopped taking the headache meds cold turkey I got the ever so lovely nausea and chills (Thankfully I only used them for a month (and usually I didn't take them as prescribed I took them only when the pain was too severe to function) so they went away after a few weeks. I know I was lucky on that front) I was more depressed than I ever had been in my life at that point as well but that only gave me more resolve not to take it again if anything. I had to drop out of class because of it (since the opiates made it possible for me to go to class in the morning and that wasn't happening without them because the sunlight itself made my headaches worse and between that and the worsening depression it was a no go) but that was a sacrifice I made to ensure my long term health. If someone decides to turn to heroin instead of getting help or pushing through it yeah my reaction is welp. (Of course my young and dumb self thought I could handle it alone and I did but never again. Lessons learned. It'd been much easier if I'd had support).

Originally Posted by Ray Wonder

You're a tough cookie, lots of people couldn't take that.

I had plenty of horrible childhood memories to get me to push through. It was not a pleasant time at all.
Fisty
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(05-19-2017, 09:35 PM)
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Blame big pharma. They've been pumping out opiods like Skittles in states with extremely lax regulations. They were easier to get than weed in Florida.

Now that we have a huge epidemic of prescription opiod addiction, increase the regulation or prices and watch the heroin use rates skyrocket because it is easier to get and already cheaper than opiods. Good job America.
SolarMystic
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(05-19-2017, 09:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by cj_iwakura

You take illegal drugs for asthma? You know what I mean.

I feel like your the type of person who would support anything the law says.
Last edited by SolarMystic; 05-19-2017 at 10:34 PM.
see5harp
Member
(05-19-2017, 10:10 PM)
[QUOTE=Rayne009;237423141]Because I wanted to be able to sleep honestly. They were waking me up every few hours and I couldn't even leave the house let alone focus in class. The meds at least toned them down enough so I could function. (They didn't even completely remove the pain either which just made it easier for me to kick them to the curb. If they had it'd been more tempting to stay on them). Granted afterwards I regretted taking them at all because the withdrawal was a bitch. [QUOTE]

I think that's probably why a lot of people start. I was just making the point that there are legit reasons that sometimes turn into very bad situations. Doctors didn't know how quickly and how strong shit like oxy was.

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