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Edge #307 - Rime review, COD cover

Circinus

Member
GAF is not a hivemind, in full or in part. So never a good way to make a point.

It is in part a hivemind I'd say.

What happened is that eventually substantive new details about the game dried up, we went on radio silence for a very long, extended period of time. And then Sony drops the game, and the only rumours we heard from a reputable source was that the game was in a problematic/messy state. In the absence of anything else to discuss, and with most of us being in this hobby long enough to realize what being dropped by a publisher the size of Sony actually means (almost always it means something is wrong with the game), do you really blame anyone for assuming the worst? Nobody was filling in the dead air with anything but what these dire facts painted as a narrative.

Yes, I would absolutely blame them for assuming anything at all. Especially for for assuming 'rumours' as truth (like someone posting something on a message board). Literally anything can be a rumour.

People should know game development (or any kind of project development) isn't just going directly from A (idea or concept) to B (high quality end project/product) in a straight line without any kind of hurdles to overcome..

Why not just assume nothing and just see how it progresses eventually and judge the game when it eventually comes out, if it does?

And like I said publishers can of course drop games for business reasons / change of strategy... It doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong with the game..

e.g. Sleeping Dogs was dropped by Activision and went to Square Enix. Activision likely made a good enough business decision, considering Square Enix wasn't very satisfied with the commercial performance and subsequently didn't greenlit a sequel. Despite that, it's a very good game for a lot of people here, and overall it's well received.

I for one am extremely glad it turned out great, because I love the concept and I love supporting indies. But this is a discussion forum and when bad things go down it is entirely appropriate to comment on that reality whether it is perceived as "mean" or not.

What reality? You're referring to a rumour as reality now?

So at what point do we take someone's word over the other? Especially when one is only really known to mods. And those rumors still leave Sony in a bad light. Either the game was nothing and they created a world beater in a year, making Sony an even worse judge of developers quality, or more likely, Sony saw how good the game was looking and wanted the IP, and once turned down, dropped funding. Don't get why a standard practice of the industry is now hard to believe.

Publisher doesn't just assess the quality, but the sales potential / ROI potential as well obviously.

Since someone mentioned No Man's Sky, if I as a publisher had to choose whether to fund No Man's Sky or Rime, I would obviously choose No Man's Sky (of course it's an easy choice to make now knowing that No Man's Sky was a hige commercial success, rather than at the moment of the pitch)(neither are published by SIE).

Even then, it's putting stock in lherre's source. Sometimes the source is wrong or lying.



Also this. NMS got released with Sony publishing. Edith Finch and RIME didn't. 1 was bad. 1 is definitely good. 1 is looking to be good going by Edge's score.

NMS is funded/self-published by Hello Games though.

It's distribution only done by SIE for the retail copy.
 

Amir0x

Banned
It is in part a hivemind I'd say.

Except we're not, not even in part. The single most unified this board has ever been against or for anything was the XBO reveal fiasco, and even that had a huge contingent on the board arguing in favor of that mess. Calling GAF a hivemind is just a really lazy way to dismiss the viewpoints of people who you'd rather not consider their arguments.

Yes, I would absolutely blame them for assuming anything at all. Especially for for assuming 'rumours' as truth (like someone posting something on a message board). Literally anything can be a rumour.

People should know game development (or any kind of project development) isn't just going directly from A (idea or concept) to B (high quality end project/product) in a straight line without any kind of hurdles to overcome..

Why not just assume nothing and just see how it progresses eventually and judge the game when it eventually comes out, if it does?

See the problem is that for some people they don't know when to filter our random noise from legitimate info. When you've been on GAF for a long time, however, you pick up the skill. I know when to filter out rumours that have little validity versus stuff that comes from excellent sources. Now I don't really feel like litigating the strength of this "rumour" because it's a boring thing to do, but suffice to say I believe there's fantastic odds RIME went through a troubled period of its development.

Regardless, you can't fight against human nature, any more than you can fight against how discussion forums work. When you have no information about a highly anticipated game for years in a row and then suddenly the publisher drops you and then a highly regarded source says there is some troubled waters in development? Yeah, people are going to discuss it.

People are going to make conclusions, because

a.) ultimately it doesn't impact anything if the game actually does come out and plays well since you'll get it anyway
b.) as game hobbyists, we're naturally going to take our learned experiences in the industry and apply them to current events.

And discussing the current state of a game in development doesn't actually mean you can't judge the game perfectly fine if it eventually comes out. I don't know why you think discussing the topic of the moment with the only new info anyone had on the game for ages is suddenly going to make people incapable of playing and enjoying/disliking the final product upon release.

This is a forum that discusses the entirety of a game's development, not just the release. As such such important news regarding the state of RIME is going to arouse natural speculation and much of it is inevitably going to be negative. This is GAF so if the narrative wanted to be changed, the developer can come here (as they did) and ease our fears about the game's status. That's how it works :)

And like I said publishers can of course drop games for business reasons / change of strategy... It doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong with the game..

e.g. Sleeping Dogs was dropped by Activision and went to Square Enix. Activision likely made a good enough business decision, considering Square Enix wasn't very satisfied with the commercial performance and subsequently didn't greenlit a sequel. Despite that, it's a very good game for a lot of people here, and overall it's well received.

It doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong, but it does make it statistically significantly more likely. In the end if you're anticipating the game as much of GAF was, a basic sort of worry about the game's status is going to set in at that point.
 

Budi

Member
NMS is funded/self-published by Hello Games though.

It's distribution only done by SIE for the retail copy.

Sony did do other things too though, marketing and even taking down videos of people playing and discussing (which was accidental to be fair) the game without day one patch. Sony initially offered developement funding, but Hello Games only requested financial assistance for promotion and publication.
 

Dariuas

RiME Community Manager
It's possible. I think I can hear Dariuas heart beating a little bit faster from the potential honor from here hehe

Haha, I thought it was all of the coffee and energy drinks we're all consuming here as we move into launch week!
 

Dariuas

RiME Community Manager
Congrats on everything you have accomplished!

Btw, do you happen to know if amazon.es is going to sell the game's special edition for PS4? Right now they just have the PC version.

I don't know for certain, but I can find out and let you know.
 

AudioEppa

Member
When it comes to games I wanted to play. I can't know the quality of it from someone else's score. Be it a 5, 6 or 9. RiME will not be a day 1. But at some point I will play it when the time is right. I don't care that it once was a Sony exclusive. I just remember that I was once super excited for it. It's been more than a while since then and my interests has faded.


I hope for nothing but success on launch day.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Haha, I thought it was all of the coffee and energy drinks we're all consuming here as we move into launch week!

Well you guys have apparently earned what's coming to you if EDGE is rating you this highly. They've very strict with their higher scores. You guys are about to have a very positive few months I feel it in my guts.

I can't wait to play, I hope it's the perfect blend of introspective Studio Ghibli and Team ICO I've been envisioning in my head. Still deals with emotions like depression, right? Or did I misunderstand the intent? Something about different areas representing different stages in this cycle? It's been a long time since I read that, so I may be misremembering. Just recall how fascinating it made the concept seem.

DarthOrange said:
Deadlight was pretty damn great, one of my favorite games on 360.

Damn that's unique. Never heard anyone consider Deadlight a favorite. My take on it was it was a strong foundation upon which you could see the potential of the company and the concept, but held back by one too many significant flaws. Wasn't something I'd take with me on a deserted island.
 
1. Poor sales/ROI. It is with indies games like Rapture/Helldivers that we see Sony publishing them on Steam. It may suggest that said games didn't do well enough that they're trying to recoup more profit from other platforms.

2. Expansion/growth of 3rd-party publishing/self-publishing of indie games. Already listed above. The availability of publishers willing to fund games like that means they don't need to fund any themselves, others will fund it.

3. Budget and portfolio management. It's not as if Shu gets a budget that splits AAA/VR/Indie accordingly, those splits are managed by them and if there's no additional budget to fund VR games specifically, generally increased investment in a new range of products mean something within the existing funding pipeline suffers.

4. Change of strategy. Strategy changes can happen pretty quickly.

5. Success of the PlayStation business. Contrary to popular belief, success doesn't somehow mean that companies are given more freedom and leeway to maintain their standard of operations. More successful businesses are often driven to continue improving inefficiencies and enhance their business, and generally that means readjusting resources to maximise ROI. Something like indie games could have possibly ended up in a very lowest totem pole of ROI and that would be significantly deprioritised in a business unit chasing maximum efficiency.

6, Other. Plenty of other possibilities. Business management is tough.

Just wanted to say thanks for this. Number 5 I knew but on number 3 you seem to indicate that you think VR investment might be at least partly responsible for the cut backs on independent funding. That would be rather disappointing as I can't possibly see how it could be more profitable for them than publishing indies on their more widely available platform.

In response to number 1 it seemed like they sponsored quite a lot of very very successful indie games last gen and there have been a number of big hits this gen too like Rocket League. I always thought the reason publishing these smaller games was so appealing is that their development budgets and therefore the risk involved was so low and yet their potential for success, sales and profit was so high. That doesn't seem to have changed much from last gen so it's curious to see gen divesting so much from what I would see or consider as a lower risk development platform.
 

Wozman23

Member
This is really sad to hear... Do we know why? Is it due to the departure of Adam Boyes and Shahid? I don't understand. The indies sponsored by Sony were some of my favorite games last gen. It's a real shame they are dropping support :(

I've said it many times, but I too greatly miss Sony's involvement with incubated indie games and indie exclusives. Many of them, like Velocity, The Unfinished Swan, Sound Shapes, the PixelJunk series, and the Housemarque games, were favorites within the PS3 lifespan.

We can't say for certain since we don't know all the details, but I do remember Giant Sparrow signing a 3 game deal with Sony. Their 3 game deal seemed to be quite common, yet I think we only ever saw thatgamecompany, Housemarque, and Plastic release 3 games. I'm sure like almost all corporate contracts, they had clauses beneficial to the main party which allowed them to back out of the agreements. Most contracts, similar to Terms of Service agreements, are basically nothing since they often contain a clause stating that the main party can change the terms of the contract at any time if they choose to. You're basically just signing a blank page.

Edith Finch was supposed to be a Sony title.
Rime was dropped.
Little Nightmares never had a publisher mentioned when it was revealed as Hunger, but looking at Tarsier's past work with Sony, it felt safe to assume they'd publish it.

In an alternate timeline we'd still be getting a third game from Giant Sparrow, and hopefully a third game from Queasy Games who have been practically silent since Sound Shapes.

Vane seems like it would have fit well within Sony's past indie catalog too.

The fact that many WWS 'indie-scale' games are no longer published by Sony means it's a portfolio level decision, where those kind of game investments are replaced with VR investments.

I think it really sucks that Sony is no longer funding said games and moving the funding to VR games instead, but alas.

Another factor is that this gen has seen a lot more mid-tier publishers and self-publishing happening at a broader scale compared to last-gen.

Pubs like Annapurna, Devolver, 505 are supporting the development and funding of many indie games.

We saw the same thing with the Vita. It's almost as if Sony always has one too many irons in the fire. I don't really see VR working out in the long run, so maybe Sony will shift focus back to indies on their core console at some point.

Hopefully Annapurna will pick up the slack for now. Edith Finch was great and their upcoming games look great.

I think there is still a place for indies in Sony's portfolio. Diversity is never bad. The fact that so many small indie publishers are appearing and thriving shows that the business model can be profitable.

After the commercial failure of Alienation, I'll be interested to see how Nex Machina performs. It's fair to say that Housemarque needs Sony and Sony's resources more than Sony needs Housemarque. It seems to me that Housemarque doesn't know how to effectively advertise their games. I have no idea how they're gonna change it up for Nex Machina with a month til launch because I don't see a lot of buzz for the game. I do think Nex Machina will be part of Sony's E3 in some form, likely in a sizzle reel. Hope they have more up their sleeve to generate buzz than just that, though.

Reviews and the quality of Resogun will sell Nex Machina. Alienation really isn't in the same vein in my eyes, and felt more like a reskinned Dead Nation. Plus, there are quite a few of those style twin-stick shooters. Nex Machina seems like a worthy spiritual successor to Resogun, which I'd easily say their most unique and most addictive game so far.

Sony still invests in indies, promotes them, gets console first exclusives. If anything has changed recently, it's that I don't think they want to again get stuck with a "No Man's Sky" situation where despite giving Hello Games tons of freedom and treating their game like first party royalty, the game still got delayed frequently and still released in a very sloppy state. They took some of the heat for that, whether right or wrong. It was a major release and people associated it with Sony for how heavily they promoted it, so there was some backlash there.

The irony is that if you disregard the consumer backlash and deception and focus merely on No Man's Sky's commercial success, it was probably the most successful Sony indie game in terms of revenue. I really enjoyed the game, but I've always maintained that part of the reason it was so poorly received was because it was marketed on a higher level than the average indie game. The exposure it got attracted the attention of people who aren't really interested in indie games, and expectations were unrealistic. There were valid reasons not to like it, but a lot of the backlash came from people who are far more familiar with stuff like Call of Duty, Battlefield, and Destiny than they are with Minecraft, Proteus, or [third even more obscure indie that very few know].
 
Just wanted to say thanks for this. Number 5 I knew but on number 3 you seem to indicate that you think VR investment might be at least partly responsible for the cut backs on independent funding. That would be rather disappointing as I can't possibly see how it could be more profitable for them than publishing indies on their more widely available platform.

No.3's guess is derived from the annual announcement comparison list where we see that there are not any notable decrease in games being funded on a quantity level, but what is notable is that increase in VR announcements corellate with reduction of indie announcements.

Again, no.1-5 are all interlinked in some way. Even if indie is more profitable, they may decide that strategy of pushing VR is more important than games that other publishers will fund.

It's all guesswork, but it's guesswork that I'm relatively confident in.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Speaking of No Man's Sky, its future isn't looking bright: the private "experimental" and "internal" branches of the Steam version haven't been touched since the Path Finder patch was finalised two months ago, which is in stark contrast to how regularly said branches saw updates following release. Even over Christmas, there was a lack of activity for only three-and-a-half weeks (mid-December to early January). I wouldn't quite go so far as to infer that Hello has abandoned the game, however it does appear that expanding upon the lacklustre foundation is no longer a high priority.
 

Circinus

Member
1. Poor sales/ROI. It is with indies games like Rapture/Helldivers that we see Sony publishing them on Steam. It may suggest that said games didn't do well enough that they're trying to recoup more profit from other platforms.

2. Expansion/growth of 3rd-party publishing/self-publishing of indie games. Already listed above. The availability of publishers willing to fund games like that means they don't need to fund any themselves, others will fund it.

3. Budget and portfolio management. It's not as if Shu gets a budget that splits AAA/VR/Indie accordingly, those splits are managed by them and if there's no additional budget to fund VR games specifically, generally increased investment in a new range of products mean something within the existing funding pipeline suffers.

4. Change of strategy. Strategy changes can happen pretty quickly.

5. Success of the PlayStation business. Contrary to popular belief, success doesn't somehow mean that companies are given more freedom and leeway to maintain their standard of operations. More successful businesses are often driven to continue improving inefficiencies and enhance their business, and generally that means readjusting resources to maximise ROI. Something like indie games could have possibly ended up in a very lowest totem pole of ROI and that would be significantly deprioritised in a business unit chasing maximum efficiency.

6, Other. Plenty of other possibilities. Business management is tough.

Yep, this. With Helldivers, it's actually interesting to note that the game is very successful on Steam (520K sales according to Steamspy) so overall that game was a big hit. Which is leading me to wonder if SIE is thinking about publishing more of those kind of games on Steam as well and being less conservative with PS4-only for those kind of games (extra profit is extra profit after all).

By the way, it might have been Arrowhead Game studios that pressed SIE into releasing a PC version considering strong demand from their fanbase and their past games being PC-only.

Just wanted to say thanks for this. Number 5 I knew but on number 3 you seem to indicate that you think VR investment might be at least partly responsible for the cut backs on independent funding. That would be rather disappointing as I can't possibly see how it could be more profitable for them than publishing indies on their more widely available platform.

Because they're likely thinking long-term. They're likely expecting much more growth from VR on the longer term, and in the end profit.

Publishing indie-style games doesn't guarantee ROI, but by publishing indie-type VR game they're at least already making their VR proposition more interesting and they're reportedly making a profit on the sale of the VR headsets themselves, so they're helping that platform grow. PS4 is already quite 'saturated' with games, but PS VR not so much.

Lots of their indie-style releases from the past years weren't really that popular and particularly very well-received. Bound, The Tomorrow Children, Shadow of the Beast, Alienation, Hardware: Rivals, Fat Princess Adventures, BigFest, CounterSpy, Hohokum, Entwined were all probably ranging from flop to break-even or mixed succes.

Maybe they dropped that side of their publishing business a bit too early, considering What Remains of Edith Finch, Little Nightmares, RIME are turning out to be critically acclaimed (RIME not yet set in stone of course)! Remarkable that they potentially missed 3 hits releasing next to each other. Of course, it's only good for players, because those games turned out as good as they would have anyway, except now they're available on more platforms!!

Their F2P initiative from SIE San Diego Studio seems to also have flopped tremendously. (Kill Strain and Drawn to Death), based on the fact that those games are almost as unpopular as they can be and the fact that they ditched the external production department of San Diego Studio.

In response to number 1 it seemed like they sponsored quite a lot of very very successful indie games last gen and there have been a number of big hits this gen too like Rocket League. I always thought the reason publishing these smaller games was so appealing is that their development budgets and therefore the risk involved was so low and yet their potential for success, sales and profit was so high. That doesn't seem to have changed much from last gen so it's curious to see gen divesting so much from what I would see or consider as a lower risk development platform.

The potential for success, sales and profit isn't really high statistically, especially for having a phenomenon like Rocket League.
 
Okay. Can someone please look at the Marvel Vs Capcom Infinite section in Edge and tell us if anything interested was mentioned? Pretty please?
 

Nasbin

Member
I trust Edge more than anyone else on this. They awarded GOTY to TLG in 2016, and ranked Ico slightly higher than SOTC in their top 100 games of all time list. They're my kind of people. Pre-ordered.
 
They had like 2 or 3 Rime covers. I do not trust that review score at all.

Because giving it a good review score means people will buy old copies of edge with rime on the cover? I don't understand what incentive they have to purposely boost the score.
 
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