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The NES Trilogy of Betrayal - Zelda 2, Castlevania 2, Mario 2 -- which is best/worst?

ReyVGM

Member
Back then, there were no rules or standard as to what a game needed to be, so those 3 different sequels were just fine. I don't remember anyone saying those games sucked for being different. My friends and I played those sequels and the originals just as if they each were their own original game.
 

border

Member
Reread what you just wrote here, because this sounds FUCKING AWESOME!

"An intense fight for your life" sounds awesome in the context of Bayonetta or Dark Souls, where you have a varied array of offensive and defensive skills at your disposal. It is less appealing In the context of Castlevania 2, where you can only whip in 1-2 directions and the game has flicker/slowdown because of how many enemies the game spams you with.
 

Kadin

Member
Simon's Quest
Zelda 2
SMB 2

I love all 3 but this is my order of favorite.

As to NES Trilogy of Betrayal? Heeeeell no!
 

chemicals

Member
Mario 2 is the best of that bunch by far. I was a Nintendo freak when all 3 of these games were released and Zelda was the worst one. Castlevania 2 had it's moments.
 

Spman2099

Member
Simon's Quest is clearly the worst of the bunch, but I think it helped establish a ton of things that eventually lead to some great Castlevania games.
 
SMB2 and Zelda II are fine. Simon's Quest... eh.

I feel like the "they're not like the originals!" sentiment is more in hindsight. I'm sure some people felt this way back then (I wasn't alive during the NES era) but AVGN and some older gamers have talked at length about it. The sense I get is generally that it was accepted these were different games, as sequels weren't expected to be as iterative as they are now. Only with the SNES era (World, LTTP and Castlevania IV being perfect examples because they basically ignore the 2 games in favor of expanding on ideas in Mario 3, Zelda 1 and Castlevania 1) did these games start looking like black sheep.
 

Malreyn

Member
Does TMNT2:the arcade game count? Cause that's vastly different from the first one, is in the numbered series and I enjoyed that vastly more than the first one
 

Zero-ELEC

Banned
All the libel against Final Fantasy II in this thread is frankly offensive.

While... questionably programmed and featuring a progression system that would be generously described as obtuse, FFII had some neat ideas and set some standards for Final Fantasy games to come.

Shame on you.
 

AXE

Member
OP the hell you on, son?

Each of those game leave quite a number of games in their shadow. Quite a heck of a number.

My favourite of those is C2, and calling the night mechanic dumb is rather... dumb. Scared the hell outta me as a kid and I'd go even as far as say that Dark Souls could use some WHAT A MAD NIGHT HAS AWAKENED type of stuff to really emphasize for you to get the frack outta dodge and cozy up a bonfire.
 

Link1110

Member
In order of best to worst

Super Mario USA is amazing and a nice fun sequel to Mario 1 even if it wasn't made as a Mario game.

Zelda 2 was actually fun. Not the best Zelda game, but I can sit down and enjoy it

Castlevania 2 was too cryptic, bit play it with Nintendo power open (which I think we all did back in the day) and that too was playable

Mario 2 Japan was kaizo before kaizo and the worst by far
 
I really feel like complaints about kneeling at the cliff in Simon's Quest are overblown. Because you do the "get a crystal and kneel" thing earlier in the game. It's not an insane out-of-nowhere action. It's how you use crystals.
 

The3rdBozon

Neo Member
If you come in here and talk that trash about Zelda 2... I will end you.

The correct answer is Simon's Quest, even though it's still pretty rad at times. That day/night cycle...

Edit: I'm actually curious what would have happened if Zelda 2 wasn't part of the Zelda franchise, and was just a new side-scrolling RPG by Nintendo with some other name. It's a little Zelda... a little Metroid... a little 'I don't know what.' I could see it growing a very real fanbase, rather than the backlash of "It's different" as the primary response to it.
 

Kurt

Member
Those 3 games are really good. All 3 of those games has some memorable music.

Super Mario bros 2
is the most memorable game of that list.
It's has the best level design. The music for instance is something everyone knows :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqtKBlK3YII (same song as water world in smb1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9Ee4TevHfA (overworld theme, so memorable)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gQOprzFxxQ (one of the most memorable boss theme in mario games)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GB8SSIK0sQ (end theme is godlike)

Castlevania 2
comes in second place. It's a somehow unfinished game, yet it's still a really good game.
As a huge castlevania fan, i wish they could bring another game like that (open world with different castle).
Best ending song of all castlevanias.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyExXVPjt8c

Also includes the most memorable song of all the castlevania series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2oZtvjg5oA


Zelda 2

is a good game, but the only thing i don't like about this is the way you hit an enemy and turn into a sideview.
The best solution here was a mix between topview & side view. Where the overworld topview was like zelda 1 and the caves & castles like in zelda 2.
Yet almost every song in this game is good.
It includes one of the best zelda songs every made :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWreKqhKl-Y
 

EricB

Member
Castlevania II was the only one of these that I owned upon original release. It was also the only one of the NES Castlevanias I owned at the time. I remember enjoying it, and being able to finish it somehow. I don't remember if I got a hint somewhere, but I definitely made it through the game when I was about 11 years old.

As for the other two, I like Super Mario Bros. 2 now, but I first played all the way through by way of the Gameboy Advance version, which I bought on launch. Still, it didn't (and doesn't) hype me up the way Mario 3 or World did.

Never really played much of Zelda II. I have been meaning to give it a go on 3DS, but I think I need to approach it with the proper mindset in order to stick with it. Again, it certainly doesn't appeal to me in the way that Zelda 3 did when it was released so I would say it definitely failed in that regard.

Overall, I think I like the experimentation in a way, but it does seem strange that a gameplay-based company like Nintendo (in the cases of Mario and Zelda) would create sequels based solely around characters rather than the gameplay that made the originals so beloved in the first place. It makes me wonder how the games would be remembered if they had been released as original series. How fondly is Doki Doki Panic remembered in Japan?
 

border

Member
I feel like the "they're not like the originals!" sentiment is more in hindsight. I'm sure some people felt this way back then (I wasn't alive during the NES era) but AVGN and some older gamers have talked at length about it. The sense I get is generally that it was accepted these were different games, as sequels weren't expected to be as iterative as they are now. Only with the SNES era (World, LTTP and Castlevania IV being perfect examples because they basically ignore the 2 games in favor of expanding on ideas in Mario 3, Zelda 1 and Castlevania 1) did these games start looking like black sheep.

The thing is that if these games were so beloved and so successful at the time, why did all of them immediately revert to the gameplay style of their predecessors for the second sequel? I mean I guess the answer is obvious for SMB3, but Konami pretended that Simon's Quest never happened for the better part of a decade. Zelda has never attempted sidescrolling or XP systems since Adventure of Link.

I have that there was some level of internal or external backlash against these titles.
 

Ahasverus

Member
Simon's Quest is a pioneer in Open World and Night Time cycle. Can't hate on that. BTW, if you play it with the fan patch that fixes the translation it becomes far better.
 

Brashnir

Member
Zelda 2 - weird but solid game
Castlevania 2 - Terribad game with a legendary soundtrack
SMB2 - weird yet excellent game.

Goonies 2 is also way different than the first game. It has some pretty rough bits, but it's a good game overall.
 

Ouroboros

Member
I loved all three. I never played Castlevania 1, so Simon's Quest was all I knew of Castlevania.

Mario 2 was my favorite of the 3 because my cousin had it and I didn't so I only got to play it every now and again.

Zelda 2, while was way too hard for me to beat, has a special place in my heart just watching my brother play it but sadly, never beating the final boss.
 

StarPhlox

Member
Without doubt. Personally, I love all 3. They're some of my favorites games ever; and maybe, maybe, even superior to their predecessors (at least, I like Mario 2 and Castlevania 2 more than the originals)

This human gets it exactly right. I understand each of these three are black sheep to a degree, but they're among my favorites in their respective franchises because they dared to be different and weird and to me are highly replayable today. In fact, I've replayed each of these in the past 2 years.
 

zenspider

Member
As a child, it was kind of difficult not to feel cheated by these games...

Huh. I was a kid when those games came out and it had the opposite effect.

The bar was set so high for what a sequel should be in terms of new expectations that it took me years - like until Super Mario Galaxy 2 - to be interested in an highly iterative sequel. Mega Man 2 was the sole exception.
 

cireza

Member
I love all three of those games. Zelda II is my favorite Zelda game.

I'd rather play Zelda II, Castlevania II or Mario 2 than the exact same thing as the previous game, simply with new levels. I like changes. If you give the same things again, I will get bored immediately.
 
Oddly enough all 3 are some of my favorite games in their series. Zelda 2 is still my fondest Zelda game, while not my favorite it's top 3. Castlevania 2 is also in my top 3 I would say behind SoTN and 3. Mario 2 is further down the list, probably top 6 or 7 but I still loved the game. Best is Zelda, and worst is probably Castlevania although to me its Mario 2. These are some of the games that hardened my gaming skills when i was a kid. Along with stuff like Battletoads and whatnot.
 

Mr. Hyde

Member
I liked then all despite not playing Zelda 2 much as a kid. Simon's Quest, on the other hand, was played to finish a couple times. I preferred it over Castlevania 1 as a kid.
 

Aesnath

Member
Of note, I played all three around their initial releases and then came back and finished them as an adult.

I suspect that Mario 2 is probably the best of the bunch, as, although it deviated from its predecessor, it was still a fun game with few technical issues.

Zelda 2's design feels like it was the most disjointed of the three. The overworld sucked the fun out of exploration with random encounters (always the best part of RPG design) and a generally lacking aesthetic. The 2D gameplay had some nuance to it, but it often felt clunky and overly focused (IMO) on an odd shield mechanic. One of the joys of the original zelda was exploration and encountering new environments--this one, not so much. Getting anywhere felt like a chore. The dungeons were also a letdown compared to the puzzle laden trapfests of the first game. It ended up feeling like a bad castlevania to me.

Castlevania 2 was created from excellent ideas with spotty execution and translation so bad it made the game unplayable. Unlike Zelda 2, I think the game went in a good direction, but it just couldn't quite live up to its goals. I always felt like it was easier to navigate than, say, the original metroid, but it featured fewer worthwhile secrets and the most unhelpful hints for puzzles. I feel like the moment to moment combat is reasonably consistent with the original 'vania, love it or hate it.
 

zenspider

Member
Goonies 2 is also way different than the first game. It has some pretty rough bits, but it's a good game overall.

I always thought Goonies II was in reference to the movie, not an earlier game. I'd only ever seen a "Goonies 1" game on like a Commodore or Apple IIc that was just a one-screen game of the room with the firepit and the money printer.

Goonies II is the original metroidvania - they should be called Goonietroids haha.
 

Kinsei

Banned
Zelda 2 and Mario 2 are both great games. I very slightly prefer Zelda 2.

I've never played Simon's Quest. I should get on that someday to see if it's really as bad as I've been led to believe.
 

Rookhelm

Member
I can't speak to Zelda 2, but Mario 2 is awesome.


I think Simon's Quest is one of the most underrated NES games. Certain design decisions cripple it somewhat, preventing it from being truly great. If there was a more balanced modern day remake, I would love it.

The music was awesome...the "open world" -esque design was fresh at the time. The Dark Souls-like cryptic nature of the NPCs and the world was fascinating. There's so much implied lore there as well.

Certain combat encounters are just too hard for its own good. Monsters respawn immediately if you scroll the screen away just slightly, and the fall through floors make certain castles super frustrating. And the frequent knockbacks into water, causing immediate death, sucks real bad.

Take out the fall through floors, tune the combat a bit, fix whatever translation errors there might be, and I'd say it's an awesome game.
 

120v

Member
only reason i tolerated Simon's Quest back in the day was because i was a kid and getting a new game was a rare opportunity, so you just played the hell out of whatever you could get your hands on.... in retrospect it was a pretty epic game for its time but it's something i would never go back to today. it just wasn't a well designed game in aggregate

zelda 2 has some issues but i still do a few playthroughs here and there. but everything past the river devil is complete bullshit and the stat levels cap out way too early

mario 2 i actually consider a legit mario game, even though technically it isn't. though platforming is nowhere near as tight as SMB 1&3, it's probably the least 'black' of the aforementioned 'black sheeps'
 
I used to own one of those VHS tape guides that included both Super Mario Bros. 2 and Castlevania 2.

Rather than a series of betrayal they should be known as a series of innovation.
 

VDenter

Banned
Super Mario Bros 2 is the worst Mario game by a mile. It is the only Mario game that i dont want to touch ever again.

Zelda 2 only tops Phantom Hourglass and maybe Skyward Sword. But is no way a worthy sequel to the first Zelda game at all and Link to the past made Zelda 2 look like a complete joke.

Catlevania 2 is a mediocre sequel to a great game but i will give it credit that it was still a Castlevania game at its core. In fact i do think it is judged unfairly. Some of its flaws would have probably been fixed if the team had just spend a bit of extra time developing the game.
 

Toxi

Banned
Mario 2 is the worst because it should have been localized with the original characters instead of the shitty Mario cast.

...

But seriously, Zelda 2 and Mario 2 are great. Castlevania 2... Not really a fan.
 

MrBadger

Member
Were they really all that disliked at the time? Zelda 2 and Mario 2 are great games. Simon's Quest is a bit shit, but it evolved into something better and it had a lot of cool ideas in it for the time, like the day/night cycle.
 
SMB 2 is legit great. I enjoyed it a lot.

Zelda II has a nice combat system and I liked that it had all those towns and such, but the overworld is a chore and the dungeons weren't that fun to me. Still a good game but far from one of my favourites in the series.

Simon's Quest had some nice ideas that later games would expand on, but perhaps not a great game to play today.
 

sphinx

the piano man
Somebody help me here..

I remember vividly reaching the one temple on Simon's quest without needing to kneel down at the dead-end, I remember I just went all to the right, there was a very hard jump, which I pulled off several times, then used laurels to get past the swamp area and I got there.

did that acutally happen or I dreamt it?

I think I finished the game not even knowing about the tornado.

I can't remember how I figured out that I needed to have the heart to change the path of the boat.
 
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