IISANDERII
Member
Something else you should learn today is who Mother Theresa was.
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Supporting abusive work environments - Why I wont be buying Red Dead 2
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
- Start date
thelatestmodel
Junior, please.
There's no way I'm not buying Red Dead 2.
I sympathize with the sentiment, but protesting in this way (i.e. a few people not participating in a sea of sales) is meaningless.
I don't see my purchase as validating those working conditions. But it's an important discussion to have, for sure.
I sympathize with the sentiment, but protesting in this way (i.e. a few people not participating in a sea of sales) is meaningless.
I don't see my purchase as validating those working conditions. But it's an important discussion to have, for sure.
The Horror the horror
Banned
If this were an obscure studio with a relatively unknown IP, they'd be singing a different tune.
But, folks need their Rockstar fix, I suppose.
Reckheim
Member
I walk around naked ... gotta stand up to this bullshit.
ebullientprism
Member
People are choosing to work there. If they are fine staying there then I am fine buying this.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
The important thing is to have lines.
No one can be really be expected to be a saint and never buy anything that was made by a company that exploits its workers in today's world as employee abuse is unfortunately too ubiquitous.
But we can do things like not replace our phones or laptops etc. until they need replacing rather than every year or two as the marketing pressures people to. People can acknowledge that most AAA games are made in terrible work environments, while still not supporting the worst of the worst developers/publishers, writing them to say why they aren't buying and putting more of their gaming budget toward indies etc.
It's the same thing with recycling and other environmentally conscious behaviors. One doesn't have to be perfect and do absolutely everything possible or do nothing at all. Every little bit helps and it's better to have some lines drawn than none. At the same time, I have little patience for people who do a few things and act all morally superior, so it goes both ways to some extent.
"If you hate your job so much why don't you quit?"
Are you fucking kidding me? What are you, 12?
Herbspiceguy
Member
I've been looking forward to the time the gaming community started to show some backbone and voice concerns of the toxic work environments in the videogame industry.
Things simply have to change, no matter the pedigree of the studio.
I think videogame journalism could play an important role here. I don't agree that reviews should factor in working conditions per se, but they could definitely do more articles on this topic. Maybe even ask companies to 'review' the work environment. The studios who decline such an invitation will get the impression they have something to hide.
Things simply have to change, no matter the pedigree of the studio.
I think videogame journalism could play an important role here. I don't agree that reviews should factor in working conditions per se, but they could definitely do more articles on this topic. Maybe even ask companies to 'review' the work environment. The studios who decline such an invitation will get the impression they have something to hide.
I feel bad about the people having to work in those conditions but if I boycotted every company with shady work practices I wouldn't be able to buy anything.
Wouldn't boycotting this game hurt the employees we want to support? If it sells well then they would get bonuses and have something extra to put on their resume/CV. No?
Wouldn't boycotting this game hurt the employees we want to support? If it sells well then they would get bonuses and have something extra to put on their resume/CV. No?
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
So who at that studio is to blame for all of this? Is there one hard assed director that's making everyone's lives a living hell?
Dont know. I have to work 38 hours a week, get good money, enough free days etc. My job sounds pretty different from this one.
And I am not sure if it sends the right message to the Publishers
batman2million
Member
Then just buy it used?
That's what I usually do to "stick it to the man" for a game I really want to play.
That's what I usually do to "stick it to the man" for a game I really want to play.
It's probably a combination of factors, likely culture developed and encouraged by senior members and management. And maybe that's from signals from corporate/publisher. But no, it's not one person. But it doesn't have to be a huge group either.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
If the reviews are true, they are underpaid and there are layoffs right after they ship the game, so your purchase doesnt really help them, no. It really only helps the higher ups and reinforces that their studio practices are correct.
flaxknuckles
Member
Fairphone sells nice smartphones that won't make you feel guilty to purchase:
https://www.fairphone.com/en/
https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/social-work-values/
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
That's why I feel like even if it's not just one person, there's somebody there driving the dev team in such a way that can be fixed. Even if they're answering to their boss, or their bosses boss, someone in charge can completely change this work environment.
Fbh
Member
I can only talk about my experience working in advertising, an industry that, at least in my country, seems to have a lot in common with the gaming industry when it comes to bad working conditions:
Lots of unpaid over hours, lots of stress, terrible salaries, strong internal competition and lack of empathy from the upper management.
But it's really not something you can influence a lot as a consumer, unless you get millions of people to join you which is rather unlikely.
A big issue was the demand for advertisers was way lower than the offer. So every place I worked for had this "don't like it here ? Well there is a line of people waiting to work here so you are worth nothing" mentality which was their main way to treat everyone like crap.
Big agencies were the worst since they were seen as being good for your career (you could get to work on big campaigns for big companies) so finding new people was really easy for them.
Lots of unpaid over hours, lots of stress, terrible salaries, strong internal competition and lack of empathy from the upper management.
But it's really not something you can influence a lot as a consumer, unless you get millions of people to join you which is rather unlikely.
A big issue was the demand for advertisers was way lower than the offer. So every place I worked for had this "don't like it here ? Well there is a line of people waiting to work here so you are worth nothing" mentality which was their main way to treat everyone like crap.
Big agencies were the worst since they were seen as being good for your career (you could get to work on big campaigns for big companies) so finding new people was really easy for them.
Art Vandilay
Member
That sounds pretty shitty. You could always choose to not work there though.
THAT'S
NOT
HOW
LIFE
WORKS
"Man this job is bad! I'll just quit and risk my financial stability because I know for sure in a difficult to get a job in industry like video games i'll be able to get another job in no time! Wow, life is so simple and easy!"
cr0w
Old Member
60EffPeeEss
Member
The most punishing jobs in video games, like QA, are often the lowest paid around, minimum wage most times. You can't even afford to save on those wages. Throwing the job is like asking to go homeless.
Nothing else to add to the discussion, or are we going to move on to criticizing actual saints in this thread too?
MoneyLaunderer
Member
"Why I won't be buying Red Dead 2"...
Forearm Star
Member
I didn't say thats why they did delay games. I said I wish they'd take that into consideration when they do delay games.
One of the problems with that is the incestuous relationship between much of the game press and games companies.
Look how many have gone from writing about,reviewing and talking about games to working within those same companies. It's seen as a stepping stone in many cases.
Also this is a big problem across most creative industries sadly.
Icedburden
Member
My company has poor reviews as well, but it's a damn good company. Probably people who got fired for being lazy
Rockstart VP of Management GAF's account
Clockwork5
Member
Do you realize the hardware side of gaming is fueled by working conditions that make R* look like saints?
http://www.businessinsider.com/micr...rker-conditions-are-the-same-as-apples-2012-2
https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/...-tears-of-unpaid-blackmailed-student-laborers
We all pick and choose what we pay attention to. I'm not blasting you for calling out rockstar, but keep in mind people died to get that sweet gaming rig to you.
http://www.businessinsider.com/micr...rker-conditions-are-the-same-as-apples-2012-2
https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/...-tears-of-unpaid-blackmailed-student-laborers
We all pick and choose what we pay attention to. I'm not blasting you for calling out rockstar, but keep in mind people died to get that sweet gaming rig to you.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
To be fair, those are the people that can most easily find equal pay jobs--though not in the industry. If there's one thing our shorty economy has it's a surplus of low wage jobs in the service industry.
The big problem with gaming and film and other "hobby industrie" is that you have legions of fans who think they'll love working in the industry and they're willing to basically slave themselves out in entry level jobs to get a foot in the door. That mentality continues up the chain and employees never have any real leverage as there's a legion of younger gamers desperate to work in the industry ready to take their place if they quit.
As someone else noted, it would take a shift of people realizing how exploitative gaming is versus generic software development and leaving gaming for that to cause the market to shift to where employees started having more leverage.
eXistor
Member
I just don't get why companies keep doing this. Surely they understand that if you create a fun work-environment the end-product will benefit greatly from it? You can't treat people like shit and expect to keep getting away with it. The sad thing is, they do and will continue to do so.
Basketball
Member
I wish I worked for Rockstar
thesaucetastic
Unconfirmed Member
Japan's work culture in general is pretty garbage. Long ass hours are the norm, and software crunches exist there too.
Forsaken82
Member
In my experience I would disagree
The end product is only as good as the talent, dedication and budget behind it. good morale does not make a better product.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
If an employer destroyed my self image then I might not purchase their product.
I am not that well endowed in art or programming, so it really doesn't bother me. I want to pay Rockstar $60 for their huge sandbox that takes place in the Wild West.
I would probably feel different if someone from Rockstar said I was some POS fan who shouldn't buy their product. That bothers me. I want to be part of the fan base too and give what I can.
I want to give these people $60 to enjoy their work. Granted they endured a lot to finish that work. I still feel good about it.
I realize I could be wearing clothes or using products that were made in a factory managed by a tyrant or an oppressor. I have no idea.
I feel bad for these people, but they're also talented men and women. They can now work wherever they want or do their own thing.
One thing that has bugged me and it was that I needed to grow up to the fact that it is an industry. It isn't just one giant fan club that has its parties 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Another thing I learned was not to follow in with a crowd because the crowd may not always have the best ideas.
I'm sad these people had such a horrible working environment, but I'm willing to give their work money. I want to pay for their work. I don't want to miss out on something so specific.
Don't give me GUN or Call of Juarez, don't give me some other branded western, give me Red Dead Redemption 2 and I will pay money for it.
I am not that well endowed in art or programming, so it really doesn't bother me. I want to pay Rockstar $60 for their huge sandbox that takes place in the Wild West.
I would probably feel different if someone from Rockstar said I was some POS fan who shouldn't buy their product. That bothers me. I want to be part of the fan base too and give what I can.
I want to give these people $60 to enjoy their work. Granted they endured a lot to finish that work. I still feel good about it.
I realize I could be wearing clothes or using products that were made in a factory managed by a tyrant or an oppressor. I have no idea.
I feel bad for these people, but they're also talented men and women. They can now work wherever they want or do their own thing.
One thing that has bugged me and it was that I needed to grow up to the fact that it is an industry. It isn't just one giant fan club that has its parties 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Another thing I learned was not to follow in with a crowd because the crowd may not always have the best ideas.
I'm sad these people had such a horrible working environment, but I'm willing to give their work money. I want to pay for their work. I don't want to miss out on something so specific.
Don't give me GUN or Call of Juarez, don't give me some other branded western, give me Red Dead Redemption 2 and I will pay money for it.
But having worked on a successful game can help those that are let go find jobs elsewhere. And it's not like the whole development team is let go. Staff numbers fluctuate as projects ramp up and wind down. I respect your decision but I'm just not seeing how boycotting the game helps the people employed there. This is a problem with the AAA gaming industry as a whole and not specific to Rockstar. If conditions are really that bad then it will ultimately bite the company in the ass once it starts impacting the quality of the game.
Yea I heard most of the crunch is self-imposed. I remember reading somewhere that workers fake sleep at work so the management think they have been working long hours
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Aren't there always layoffs when games are shipped because the job is done?
TheSpoiler
Member
Art Vandilay
Member
I don't buy into this, at least not in San Diego. If the pay is already shit I find it hard to believe you couldn't float your resume around and eventually land a job elsewhere. I get that it may be difficult to get another job in the video game industry, but maybe it's time to consider leaving said industry temporarily until you get a job that doesn't make you miserable.
joecanada
Member
It's easy to find clothing manufactured all over the world. Your response is lazy at best
It's also hand waving a legitimate issue away
Except when I go into crunch, I'm paid for it (either through overtime wages or time in lieu), and I'm able to do much of my work remotely so that I can still take care of my family. Not all crunch needs to be this bad.
TheSpoiler
Member
In most industries it's not so simple. Finding time to interview, having to be wary of your employer sees, taking less pay with suited to a certain lifestyle, etc. everyone has a different situation. Additionally leaving the industry with skills that don't transfer elsewhere isn't always viable.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Just buy it used.
Astral Dog
Member
it seems that their method works because they make wonderful games ❤
Because they're fired first.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
It's a moronic binary. Disliking exploitation doesn't somehow make it acceptable or better simply because in some cases it's hard to avoid buying the products of such exploitation.
In the case of a luxury item like say, a game this is hardly a gotcha stance to defray criticism.