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Ysiadmihi · May 4, 2012

Anabuhabkuss said:
Your comment was too vague then as the game is split into two different segments each with different controls. I assumed you were speaking of the flying segments because thats the only segment where one could argue that pacing could be compromise.

Not true. Everything would have to move slower even on the ground in order to make dual analog viable. The multiplayer especially would be a significantly slower and less intense experience.

Anabuhabkuss said:
I just described why ground segment pacing is already compromised and could only be improved. Having to make multiple swipes on a 3 inch (?) screen to view a 3D space is absolutely absurd. It adds nothing to the gameplay or immersion and as such, need not be there. By comparison, I would have just held the second stick left or right until I reached my intended view.

I really think you need to raise the speed on your control settings. Max speed works great for me. A quick swipe about 1/5th the length of the screen gives me a 180 degree turn.

In any case, without a fixed reticle dual analog would only make the camera controls even slower and more awkward. Not only would you have to move the cursor to the edge of a bounding box for the camera to rotate, you then would have to adjust your aim after you're looking where you want. A non-issue with pointer input, but extremely slow and clumsy on a stick. And if the game did have a fixed reticle? Well then the swiping issue is gone and the stylus still provides a better camera option.

Magnus · May 4, 2012

I love you guys. But this is crazy:

My pinky, joint and wrist all hurt just looking at that.

rpmurphy · May 4, 2012

Without a stylus:

How I play.

UncleSporky · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
I guess that depends on how bad the truth is. For example, if the truth is that they limit control schemes for games to force people to use touch and motion controls, well that won't go over so well.

You're insane if you believe that Nintendo is forcing devs to incorporate touch controls into 3DS games, especially to the extent that Kid Icarus uses them. It's far more plausible that there are data bandwidth/speed issues involved in using the IR port.

Nintendo's not even forcing devs to use 3D, the primary feature of the 3DS. One would expect that to be far more important to them than requiring touch control.

If you must assume that Sakurai is lying, then the most obvious explanation would be not having access to the programming functions for the CPP until it was too late.

EmCeeGramr · May 4, 2012

Magnus said:
I love you guys. But this is crazy:

My pinky, joint and wrist all hurt just looking at that.

That's how I've played all my stylus DS games since 2004.

Vane_MagicCity said:
I guess that depends on how bad the truth is. For example, if the truth is that they limit control schemes for games to force people to use touch and motion controls, well that won't go over so well.

Sakurai gave people the option to use GameCube controllers and completely bypass Wii controls for Brawl, and face button controls for KI.

stupei · May 4, 2012

Kokonoe said:
I don't say this by the fact that i'm use to dual analog, I say this because my experience with the game left me with the opinion that the controls are terrible. I prefer to play FPS with mouse and keyboard, not a controller.

Honestly, I don't think it would be worse, it would certainly make my experience better with this title. Phantom Hourglass didn't bother me in the slightest once I tried it, but this game in my opinion just isn't designed with everyone in mind for controls.

Kokonoe said:
I agree with this sentiment. They need to patch in Circle Pad Pro controls, I got 10 minutes into this game and had to stop. The controls are certainly the worst I've experienced on a handheld.

Kind of sums up the majority of the complaints I've seen about the controls.

They're ideal once you get used to how the game works. If it's not your thing or you don't want to put in the effort, that's fine, but asking them to patch in something that will actively make you worse at playing it skillfully isn't the answer.

And I play the game by propping it against my knee or resting it on my lap. Which is how I play a majority of handheld games anyway.

d0c_zaius · May 4, 2012

EmCeeGramr said:
That's how I've played all my stylus DS games since 2004.

I kid of course, as I myself had to play with the claw technique for any Monster Hunter on PSP.

Kard8p3 · May 4, 2012

Magnus said:
I love you guys. But this is crazy:

My pinky, joint and wrist all hurt just looking at that.

I do that.

Chopper · May 4, 2012

I don't understand the hate at all. At least not from those who have chosen to spend considerable time with the game. It took me all of two hours playing and five minutes tweaking the sensitivity settings before I got used to them definitively. I mean. I was worried. But now I cannot put this game down. Just beat the last boss, and am dying to tuck back into it and unlock some more awesome shit. Also, the multiplayer is fucking awesome. So, do I win?

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

UncleSporky said:
You're insane if you believe that Nintendo is forcing devs to incorporate touch controls into 3DS games, especially to the extent that Kid Icarus uses them. It's far more plausible that there are data bandwidth/speed issues involved in using the IR port.

Nintendo's not even forcing devs to use 3D, the primary feature of the 3DS. One would expect that to be far more important to them than requiring touch control.

If you must assume that Sakurai is lying, then the most obvious explanation would be not having access to the programming functions for the CPP until it was too late.

Nintendo made this game and the three Zelda games that force touch and motion controls. Do you NOT think Nintendo would push certain control schemes on their own devs?

qizah · May 4, 2012

I was fearing the worst before I got the game because of all the reviews and comments I'd been hearing. Once I actually got it, I never used the stand besides the first time trying it. I never really felt discomfort or felt "man, these controls suck!"

It takes time to learn the controls and how to best perform with them, no doubt; but it wasn't nearly as bad as people made it out to be. It might be worse if you're left handed, I'm not.

Skilletor · May 4, 2012

Anabuhabkuss said:
You're on a completely different argument and seemingly talking to yourself. No one is complaining about the pointer aiming in the shooter section.

The game would have been perfect if it allowed you to pick the stylus in the shooter segments (as it does) and then utilize the second analog for the ground portions. The screen on the 3DS is much too tiny to make wide movements in a large 3D space. Having to make multiple swipes to turn 180 degrees is fucking ridiculous. If anything that is what disrupts this 'pacing' issue.

I like you.

Hated the controls on the ground sections, thought flying was great. I see no reason the ground controls couldn't be dual analog.

Zafir · May 4, 2012

I think a lot of people in this thread don't understand that some people play games for enjoyment, and not to be good at the game. You will be worse at the game if you used the second analog stick to control the camera, there's no questioning that. However, if people are willing to accept the fact they're going to perform worse, why shouldn't it be implemented if it will make them enjoy the game more? If you're really worrying about the online section being unfair, make it so it assigns players based on what control scheme people are using.

Also the above posters make a very good point. The flying sections are fine control wise. It's just the ground sections which are rather tedious.

UncleSporky · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Nintendo made this game and the three Zelda games that force touch and motion controls. Do you NOT think Nintendo would push certain control schemes on their own devs?

First, Sora is only 72% owned by Nintendo and even taking that into account they were given a great deal of autonomy. Second, no, I honestly don't. Nintendo's released just as many games that don't force touch and motion controls, or only do so when convenient (i.e., item storage in NSMB/SM3DL, Fire Emblem games).

You're firing off into the dark without a shred of evidence. Either Sakurai is telling the truth or he didn't get the CPP devkit soon enough.

Sapiens · May 4, 2012

The controls are fine until you want to use a special option (like the jumping, health boost, etc), then you realize how fucked things are.

I liked the game enough, but I'm interested to see how the hype dies down in a year.

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

UncleSporky said:
First, Sora is only 72% owned by Nintendo and even taking that into account they were given a great deal of autonomy. Second, no, I honestly don't. Nintendo's released just as many games that don't force touch and motion controls, or only do so when convenient (i.e., item storage in NSMB/SM3DL).

You're firing off into the dark without a shred of evidence.

Nintendo owns a majority and so they have the means to exert their creative control if they desire. They are the publisher too. If you admit that they have forced control schemes in the past, you must be open to the possibility that they did it this time too.

It seems pretty obvious that someone had to bring up dual analog with the cpp. The cpp may not have been out long but it's been in the planningand design stages for awhile, maybe even before the 3DS launched.

SolarKnight · May 4, 2012

The screen on the 3DS is much too tiny to make wide movements in a large 3D space. Having to make multiple swipes to turn 180 degrees is fucking ridiculous. If anything that is what disrupts this 'pacing' issue.

Honest question, did anyone complaining about this tried changing the reticle speed? Turning 180 degrees definitely does not require multiple swipes. Hell, if you really wanted to you could make so it turns 720+ degrees with one swipe.

UncleSporky · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
It seems pretty obvious that someone had to bring up dual analog with the cpp. The cpp may not have been out long but it's been in the planningand design stages for awhile, maybe even before the 3DS launched.

http://www.1up.com/news/kid-icarus-supports-circle-pad-pro-lefties

"I didn't know the specs of the Circle Pad Pro, or what it looked like, until Monster Hunter 3G was announced, so we weren't able to do anything big with it in the time we had," Sakurai said. "Even if we had known about it from the start, I don't know whether we would have used both Circle Pads in that way."

Oh man, look, that liar Sakurai just digging himself in deeper! We all know the real explanation.

EmCeeGramr · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Nintendo owns a majority and so they have the means to exert their creative control if they desire. They are the publisher too. If you admit that they have forced control schemes in the past, you must be open to the possibility that they did it this time too.

It seems pretty obvious that someone had to bring up dual analog with the cpp. The cpp may not have been out long but it's been in the planningand design stages for awhile, maybe even before the 3DS launched.

Hello? Masahiro Sakurai's history regarding controls and customization?

stupei · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Nintendo owns a majority and so they have the means to exert their creative control if they desire. They are the publisher too. If you admit that they have forced control schemes in the past, you must be open to the possibility that they did it this time too.

It seems pretty obvious that someone had to bring up dual analog with the cpp. The cpp may not have been out long but it's been in the planningand design stages for awhile, maybe even before the 3DS launched.

Could you give an example of a game where the developer was forced to use a control scheme because Nintendo demanded it? An actual example, not just theories about the handheld Zeldas because some people don't like the controls the games were clearly designed around.

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

stupei said:
Could you give an example of a game where the developer was forced to use a control scheme because Nintendo demanded it? An actual example, not just theories about the handheld Zeldas because some people don't like the controls the games were clearly designed around.

Nope but I can give you 3 examples of Nintendo telling their own developers to favor a control scheme. The last 3 Zelda games.

Sora is a Nintendo company.

crazy monkey · May 4, 2012

Orayn said:
You know what obviates the need for the stand? Having legs.

(Yes, that is some amazing camerawork on my part.)

I'm quietly hoping it's something they'll include in the patch.

that is awesome camera skill.

Boss Doggie · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Oh wow. I didn't think people would take so easily to touch controls as a replacement for controllers but here we are. The trashing of dual analog and the praising of touch controls. The future is here and I am obviously out of touch (no pun intended).

I went from the joystick to the d-pad and the d-pad to the analog stick and the analog stick to dual analog and I loved the improvements each time. Going from dual analog to touch controls though I am not ready to do.

Well no wonder. You didn't play PC games so you didn't know the dumbing down of FPS.

UncleSporky · May 4, 2012

While Nintendo may have expected cursory touch/motion control in the early days of DS and Wii, in-depth usage has never been required. They even let devs do shit like this. And again, lots of their first party efforts only use these features when necessary.

tkscz · May 4, 2012

linko9 said:
Oh shit, I forgot about that! That's how I played MP:Hunters. Too bad mine is across the country right now, but I guess I could rig something up and see if it works.

Or, you could just order it from Nintendo. Seriously, this is what made the game work for me.

Busaiku · May 4, 2012

Deadly Cyclone said:
I wanted to grab the game but haven't because you have to use a stand and sit at a kitchen table type area to play according to what I've heard. Is it as bad as it sounds? Can I play on my couch?

I never took out the stand, and I've got about 80 hours down.

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

Ookami-kun said:
Well no wonder. You didn't play PC games so you didn't know the dumbing down of FPS.

I played PC games, just not FPS games and I still don't play FPS games. I remember playing Starfleet Academy, the one with the live action custscenes with Shatner. Oh but I did use a Microsoft Sidewinder joystick to play that.

Lemmings, I remember playing Lemmings on the PC with a mouse and keyboard. I played many RTS games with the keyboard and mouse.

So I guess your point is that the stylus is the new mouse for handhelds?

EmCeeGramr · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Nope but I can give you 3 examples of Nintendo telling their own developers to favor a control scheme. The last 3 Zelda games.

Sora is a Nintendo company.

Seriously, why are you repeatedly ignoring Sakurai's history with this stuff, or that the game technically allows you to use buttons and not the touch screen to aim, which means they're not "forcing" the touch control scheme?

UncleSporky · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Nope but I can give you 3 examples of Nintendo telling their own developers to favor a control scheme. The last 3 Zelda games.

http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/117/1176717p1.html

For a game that is so heavily focused on Wii MotionPlus technology, it's almost unfathomable to imagine The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword without it. And yet, according to the game's producer, Eiji Aonuma, that's exactly what almost happened.

During a recent interview, Aonuma-san revealed to us that after Skyward Sword had been in development for a couple of years with MotionPlus in mind, he started to wonder if this wasn't the direction he wanted to follow for the next big console Zelda title. For two or three months the game was then actually developed without the technology.

Obviously, Aonuma-san eventually came around and brought MotionPlus back into the game, but not without a little help from Katsuya Eguchi, developer of Wii Sports Resort. "Mr. Eguchi came to me and said, 'Look at all these things you can do with Motion Plus, why wouldn't you use this in a Zelda game? It would be strange not to!'"

All of these terrible liars at Nintendo. You can feel the insincerity dripping off the page, it's obvious that Skyward Sword was always mandated to have motion controls.

thetrin · May 4, 2012

I have no problems with the controls in KI. The problem is that the default sensitivity is too low, and people just assume that's how the game is supposed to play.

Ookami-kun said:
Well no wonder. You didn't play PC games so you didn't know the dumbing down of FPS.

Going from mouse and keyboard to analog stick was a trying affair. I cried the whole time, and then 5 years later, went back to only playing shooters on PC because seriously it's so much better.

That said, KI's touching aiming is 100x better than analog aiming.

UncleSporky said:
http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/117/1176717p1.html

All of these terrible liars at Nintendo. You can feel the insincerity dripping off the page, it's obvious that Skyward Sword was always mandated to have motion controls.

OH GOD, seriously? They actually had the game WITHOUT motion plus at some point?!

*cry*

Sapiens said:
The controls are fine until you want to use a special option (like the jumping, health boost, etc), then you realize how fucked things are.

I liked the game enough, but I'm interested to see how the hype dies down in a year.

What's so bad about the special options? You just press down on the dpad to use them. You take your thumb off the circle pad for like, half a second.

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

UncleSporky said:
While Nintendo may have expected cursory touch/motion control in the early days of DS and Wii, in-depth usage has never been required. They even let devs do shit like this. And again, lots of their first party efforts only use these features when necessary.

Some titles use it "in-depth" though. Why is it so hard to believe that this is one of those titles? I mean if it was ok to experiment with the controls for Zelda, why not KI?

Boss Doggie · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
I played PC games, just not FPS games and I still don't play FPS games. I remember playing Starfleet Academy, the one with the live action custscenes with Shatner. Oh but I did use a Microsoft Sidewinder joystick to play that.

Lemmings, I remember playing Lemmings on the PC with a mouse and keyboard. I played many RTS games with the keyboard and mouse.

So I guess your point is that the stylus is the new mouse for handhelds?

My point is that dual analog is not the end-all structure of controls, and touting as such (dat "build it around that interface") is simply laughable at best and is very narrow-minded. You don't even have to play the genre to know how dumbing down works.

And actually, pointer controls are in fact considered better than dual analogs as far as rail shooting and FPS are concerned. Not mouse-keyboard level accurate but a step up from dual analogs.

Maedhros · May 4, 2012

Why do people need to tell me how I want/need to play a game?

kuroshiki · May 4, 2012

When developer told consumers 'you are doing it wrong',

something went SERIOUSLY wrong.

UncleSporky · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Some titles use it "in-depth" though. Why is it so hard to believe that this is one of those titles? I mean if it was ok to experiment with the controls for Zelda, why not KI?

Because you have to assume that a trusted and well-liked developer is lying about the reasons he didn't support it and also ignore the fact that the game already doesn't require touch controls?

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

UncleSporky said:
http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/117/1176717p1.html

I actually saw a video on the Nintendo channel about this. It may have been Iwata asks. This is the key part:

Obviously, Aonuma-san eventually came around and brought MotionPlus back into the game, but not without a little help from Katsuya Eguchi, developer of Wii Sports Resort. "Mr. Eguchi came to me and said, 'Look at all these things you can do with Motion Plus, why wouldn't you use this in a Zelda game? It would be strange not to!'"

He was being pushed to use motion controls. I have had this in mind throughout this whole thread. He didn't want them but was "pushed" into it. If he had refused, the pushing may have become an order.

thetrin · May 4, 2012

kuroshiki said:
When developer told consumers 'you are doing it wrong',

something went SERIOUSLY wrong.

I dunno. The controls in KI are pretty fantastic.

Acid08 · May 4, 2012

ryushe said:
This.

People who complained about the controls just haven't put in time to master it.

That may be true but isn't there something you be said for accessibility?

bluemax · May 4, 2012

Sorry Sakurai I'm gonna have to disagree. Once you included that stupid stand you admitted your controls were shit.

thetrin · May 4, 2012

Acid08 said:
That may be true but isn't there something you be said for accessibility?

It's perfectly accessible. You just have to take 5 seconds to go into options and change the sensitivity, like you would in any number of shooters on console or PC.

Kid Icarus is a shooter. It's no different.

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

Ookami-kun said:
My point is that dual analog is not the end-all structure of controls, and touting as such (dat "build it around that interface") is simply laughable at best and is very narrow-minded. You don't even have to play the genre to know how dumbing down works.

And actually, pointer controls are in fact considered better than dual analogs as far as rail shooting and FPS are concerned. Not mouse-keyboard level accurate but a step up from dual analogs.

Great, enjoy your touch controls. No one has asked that they be removed but there should have been options for more traditional controls. Funny how that works, one side is just saying "we would like dual analog in addition to the other controls" and the other side is saying "sit down and shut up, only our opinion matters".

SolarKnight · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Some titles use it "in-depth" though. Why is it so hard to believe that this is one of those titles? I mean if it was ok to experiment with the controls for Zelda, why not KI?

Sure, KI uses the stylus controls a lot, however, it is also a fact that they are also completely optional since the game allows you to never even touch the bottom screen at all if you want to.

UncleSporky · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
I actually saw a video on the Nintendo channel about this. It may have been Iwata asks. This is the key part:

He was being pushed to use motion controls. I have had this in mind throughout this whole thread. He didn't want them but was "pushed" into it. If he had refused, the pushing may have become an order.

Just don't put your hat in the microwave, that's all I'm saying.

Roto13 · May 4, 2012

kuroshiki said:
When developer told consumers 'you are doing it wrong',

something went SERIOUSLY wrong.

With people who can't adapt to new control schemes.

Baller. PhD · May 4, 2012

Maedhros said:
Why do people need to tell me how I want/need to play a game?

Exactly.

The fact that there is even a need for this thread means that the Kid Icarus controls are a failure of game design. The game's director shouldn't need to tell me to "relax." I don't grip my pencils like that, never have, and my hand fucking hurts after playing Kid Icarus for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. That is not a failure on my part as a consumer, it's a failure of the developer.

Vane_MagicCity said:
Great, enjoy your touch controls. No one has asked that they removed but there should have been options for more traditional controls. Funny how that works, one side is just saying "we would like dual analog in addition to the other controls" and the other side is saying "sit down and shut up, only our opinion matters".

Also this.

Vane_MagicCity · May 4, 2012

UncleSporky said:
Because you have to assume that a trusted and well-liked developer is lying about the reasons he didn't support it and also ignore the fact that the game already doesn't require touch controls?

Because this isn't the first time Nintendo has refused to give us traditional controls when they could have.

thetrin · May 4, 2012

Baller said:
Exactly.

The fact that there is even a need for this thread means that the Kid Icarus controls are a failure in game design. The game's director shouldn't need to tell me to "relax." I don't grip my pencils like that, never have, and my hand fucking hurts after playing Kid Icarus for more than 20-30 minutes at a time. That is not a failure on my part as a consumer, it's a failure of the developer.

What kind of stylus are you using?

A full sized pen stylus goes a long way to alleviating pain when playing KI. That's what I use.

I haven't had any hand cramps at all during my 20 hours playing KI, and I have really large hands.

DR2K · May 4, 2012

You're all just tripping.

stupei · May 4, 2012

kuroshiki said:
When developer told consumers 'you are doing it wrong',

something went SERIOUSLY wrong.

Good thing he doesn't actually say that, or I might have to be worried.

It's not an opinion that there is clearly a superior way to approach the game in order to get the best out of how it was designed. That's true of every game and while it can be boiled down to "you're doing it wrong," I'm not sure how offering advice to people who don't seem to know how to approach the controls and helping everyone better understand why design decisions were made is a bad thing.

EmCeeGramr · May 4, 2012

Vane_MagicCity said:
Because this isn't the first time Nintendo has refused to give us traditional controls when they could have.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

Kid Icarus Uprising features multiple control schemes, just like Sakurai's previous game Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and neither forces touch or motion controls.

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