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Mega
Banned
(10-01-2016, 09:56 PM)


Welcome to the Retro AV Club, the second OT for what was formerly Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

For the interim, I am copying and pasting IrishNinja's amazing original post from the first OT. I'll revise and add to it in the days and weeks to come.

This thread is all about getting the best possible picture and performance out of your old SD video game consoles. If you're a retro game enthusiast, you might have noticed that your old games look like crap and don't play very well on your HDTV. We're here to help you, either by acquiring some equipment to make your consoles and existing HDTV work better together, or by suggesting displays that are specifically tailored for the retro game experience.

There are of course other avenues to play old games today: backward compatibility between some systems, download services, emulators, and clone consoles. Each of these methods come with unique drawbacks, some of which may matter to you and some of which may not. While the pros and cons of these options are sometimes discussed here, there's not enough room in this OP to delve into all of that, so if you're the type of person who prefers to use original hardware for the genuine experience when possible and want to know how you might be able to do it better, then read on.

Direct Captures: Because seeing is believing

Here are some comparison videos to start with. If you've only used these consoles with composite video cables, then check out the difference that other cables offer. Click a thumbnail to download the corresponding video. (x264 video, MP3 audio, Yadif filter for 480i sources)

















RGB and You: The hierarchy of video signals and cables

Before worrying about your TV and any extra devices, you want to make sure you're feeding them the best possible signal in the first place. In most cases, that will be some form of RGB. Let's cover all the bases.



Radio frequency modulation (RF), composite video, and S-video are the lowest rungs. S-video isn't terrible, but you can still do better, often without having to mod your system!

SCART carries, among other things, an RGBs video signal: red, green, blue, and sync, each separated into individual pins. This offers better clarity than the above formats and is also the signal that is natively produced by the graphics hardware in most retro consoles, even in consoles that don't output RGB through their A/V ports. 15khz RGB is the best video format that you can expect to get out of any pre-Dreamcast console, and much of the discussion in this thread encompasses how to do exactly that. In a lot of cases, you don't even have to mod the system! You just have to find the right cable.

Component video & D-terminal carry a YPbPr signal, which is different than RGB. AFAIK, RGB is superior on full-range displays, while YPbPr is better for limited-range displays, so your specific TV's capabilities should influence your choice between the two when they're both available. SCART maxes out at 240p/480i, though, so if you're playing a game that runs at a resolution of 480p or greater, then component should be your choice.

VGA carries an RGBHV signal: red, green, blue, horizontal sync, and vertical sync. It uses the same color space as SCART but supports higher resolutions as well. The Dreamcast is the only console you're likely to use with VGA, and it's the best option for that console.

No console has DVI output, but it can be transcoded to or from VGA (DVI-A) or HDMI (DVI-D) with no signal loss, which is relevant for certain processing or capture equipment.

HDMI is the standard for modern consoles and is your likely destination format if you're using an HDTV/upscaler combo.

240p Gaming: How retro consoles and televisions handle video content

Standard definition NTSC video is 720x480 pixels at 60 interlaced fields (not frames) per second. When viewing 480i content on an interlaced display, the picture is displayed and updated somewhat like this. The picture is divided into two fields: one for the odd numbered lines and one for the even numbered lines. The TV refreshes the odd field at one moment, then the even field 1/60th of a second later, and then alternates back and forth. This is how SD video content and displays generally operate.

Classic video game consoles work slightly differently. Generally, their graphics hardware wasn't robust enough to utilize a full 480 resolution at once, so most of them output 240p video instead of 480i (usually), like so. This only uses one field, but it's still updated at the same 60hz rate as normal SD video. The other field is left blank, creating what are often referred to as scanlines. (FYI, scanlines aren't necessarily as rigid and dark as this GIF suggests. Intensity and color bleed can vary a lot between different CRTs!)

That's fine on old TVs that are interlaced by nature, but this stuff can lead to problems when we're using progressive scan equipment, which basically includes every consumer flatpanel TV and monitor. Progressive TVs process an entire frame at once instead of alternating fields. This means that 480i60 video is basically fed into the TV like this. Compare this GIF with the first GIF. Instead of updating 1 field 60 times per second, it updates both fields at 30 times per second, which results in choppier motion and more apparent artifacts.

Modern TVs tend to have a built-in deinterlacing process to account for this by splitting the fields apart and doubling their resolution before they're even displayed, producing something that ideally looks a little more like this. Unfortunately, this has some drawbacks. The picture quality isn't always great due to the guesswork involved in resolving the two fields, and it takes time for a TV to apply all of that processing to the image before it gets displayed. This can result in a very significant amount of input lag. (And perhaps contrary to popular belief, it is this deinterlacing process, and not upscaling per se, that often accounts for a lot of extra input lag when playing retro video game consoles. Upscaling lag is also a concern of course, and that also can vary significantly between TV sets, but you can often eliminate a significant chunk of lag by making sure that you feed the TV a progressive signal in the first place instead of forcing it to handle an interlaced one. If you're in the market for a new HDTV and want to make sure that it has low input lag in general, check out sites like displaylag.com.)

The other major drawback is that a lot of modern TVs have no way to distinguish between 240p and 480i content! They assume that 240p consoles are actually sending a 480i signal, so they'll still go through all of this deinterlacing junk and add extra processing to the signal that doesn't have to happen! Some TVs can correctly identify 240p content, but many can't do it at all.

Finally, most HDTVs are just bad at upscaling a 240p image to their native resolution. Between a lot of questionable post-processing that you may or may not be able to turn off and internal scalers that just aren't built with an eye for pixel art, you're usually going to get something that looks bad or worse if you plug an SD video game console straight into an HDTV.

Choosing a Display: A dedicated SD CRT, or a supplementary solution for your high-end HDTV?

Your choice of display has the most ramifications on what, if any, extra hardware you'd have to throw into the mix in order to get better performance out of your retro systems in addition to how much you might spend. If you're willing to keep two TVs in your setup, one for retro games and one for HD consoles, then it would be wise to inform yourself of various CRT options, including not only run of the mill consumer TVs, but perhaps VGA computer monitors or even professional broadcast monitors. If the prospect of hoarding a bulky tube TV sounds inconvenient or unsavory to you, then finding a good converter to pair with your flatscreen TV is an advisable alternative. First, let's discuss the CRT options in brief.



Consumer CRT televisions: Not always the best option for a CRT, especially if you live in North America, but it's the one that requires the least money and effort. Trinitrons are generally well-regarded. Be wary of HD CRTs, which sometimes have bad post-processing that you can't disable. If you still have an old tube set laying around then it might be worth considering putting it to use. At the very least, they don't have some of the disadvatages that flatscreen displays do (input lag, poor upscaling). Overscan can be a pain, though, and video connector options are likely to be limited. If you're in a PAL territory, you should look for a TV with SCART input. If you're in North America, consider picking up an SD set with component inputs and pairing it with a SCART-to-YUV transcoder.



CRT computer monitors: These tend to only have VGA input, so you'd probably still have to invest in additional hardware to use them with anything but a Dreamcast. However, if you still have one laying around the house or know someone who'd be happy to get rid of theirs, and if you don't mind incorporating it into your console gaming setup, then it could be very much worthwhile to do exactly that. Picture quality for monitors often tends to be a significant step up from ordinary TVs, and positioning/convergence/scaling options are more robust. Be aware, however, that scanlines will be virtually non-existent on a 31khz computer monitor when compared to other CRTs, if that's something you care about.



Professional CRT monitors: Sony's PVM/BVM product line is among the best for 15khz gaming. Size and supported inputs vary between models, and retro gamers would want to use an RGB-capable model via SCART-to-BNC cables. The NEC XM series is also a highly regarded option that can support both 15khz (240p) and 31khz (480p) sources. Finding a good deal on these types of monitors on the second-hand market can be tricky depending on where you live, as they were never marketed to the general public, but I've seen people in this very thread pick up quite a few in the vicinity of $100 apiece from businesses that had no further use for theirs, so you never know!

Converters and Upscalers: How to properly bridge the gap between your retro console and your HDTV

So you have a phenomenal, massive flat panel HDTV in your home theater setup that's awesome for Blu-rays and your HD game consoles, but it makes your retro systems look like ass. Fret not, as there are options to mitigate this problem as well.

First, you should pick up the best kind of video cables that you can get for your systems, which is SCART for most of them, as discussed above. For the consoles that don't output RGB natively, consider modding them so that you can use SCART cables, or get someone to do it for you. (Some Gaffers are capable of performing this for you. Ask around!) Details on SCART compatibility for various systems can be found at the bottom of this post. Even if you have the best cables, though, you can't plug them straight into an HDTV and expect amazing results. For one, SCART sockets on TVs are rare outside of PAL regions, and even if your HDTV has one it probably handles 240p video poorly. So, let's go over a few types of devices that you can get to remedy this.



Transcoders (SCART-to-YUV and others): If your TV can handle 240p video through component, and handle it well, then this might be a viable option, although quality can vary and I can't vouch for any particular model. This is something you'd get if you're on a limited budget, just need something to convert a specific signal to something you can use, and can let your TV (or another device) do the actual upscaling. These probably won't be of help if your TV has a poor internal scaler. You can check your TV's 240p performance by using component cables with (1) a 240p PS1 game on a PS2 (doesn't work on PS3) or (2) 240p Wii Virtual Console games (doesn't work on Wii U).



Simple Line Doublers: Retro consoles output 15khz (240p/480i) video. Most modern monitors will only sync to 31khz (480p) signals. These converters double the video signal of a 240p source so that it properly displays the picture on a 480p monitor. This involves very little processing and is likely the ideal solution if you want to use retro consoles on a VGA CRT monitor with the best video quality and virtually no lag. It might also be a viable, if less than ideal, solution for HDTVs that handle 480p content well. Crafty Mech has a low-cost one in the works, although the details and an ETA aren't finalized.



Full HD Upscalers: These are more complex all-in-one devices built to scale your input source to your display's native resolution, many of which have extra functions such as scanline emulation. Quality, prices, and features between different upscalers vary vastly, ranging from some really cheap and really crappy generic Chinese converter boxes with terrible motion blur to some pricey high-end stuff designed specifically for gaming. The most popular line of upscalers among retro gamers is Micomsoft's XRGB series. The XRGB-1 and XRGB-2 models were actually basic linedoublers, produced some time ago for the primary function of hooking retro consoles up to CRT monitors. The XRGB-3 and XRGB-mini (Framemeister) are more complex units intended to serve the needs of flatscreen HDTV owners. Fudoh's website has a phenomenal cross-comparison of these devices and is a great starting place for determining what best suits your particular needs. The Framemeister is the most user-friendly unit and the only one to directly offer HDMI output. The XRGB-3 is a more tempermental and cumbersome--but versatile--device that offers VGA output and an option between a fully-featured upscaler mode and a lag-free linedoubler mode. Older XRGBs can be worthwhile for more limited use cases. Read the full article for more details.

SCART Survival Tips: European vs. Japanese formats, sync issues, and miscellaneous concerns



European SCART vs. Japanese 21-pin RGB: 21-pin video connectors were used in both PAL territories and in Japan, but their pin arrangements are completely different, which can complicate matters depending on what kind of equipment you're using. European SCART cables and equipment is often easier to find, especially in English-speaking territories, but Japanese devices like the XRGBs require the Japanese format on their input. This can be especially dangerous on the XRGB-3 and earlier models, as plugging a European cable directly into them will fry the unit! In short, if you're using a Japanese upscaler, you need to either obtain a SCART-to-JP21 converter of some kind or obtain cables that are already wired to match the Japanese standard.



Sync: A potentially bothersome issue with RGB cables, system mods, and processors is how they handle sync. VGA cables carry RGBHV format video: red, green, blue, horizontal sync, and vertical sync. SCART cables carry RGBs: red, green, blue, and sync. SCART sync is often called composite sync (c-sync) because it's a combination of both horizontal and vertical sync. It's important not to confuse the difference between composite video and composite sync. Composite video is the combination of ALL video data (brightness, color, and sync), while composite sync is just sync. What makes this a potential issue is that the designated sync pin on SCART cables can actually carry either of these signals, c-video or c-sync! Many TVs and upscalers can utilize either of these signals for sync without any issues, but others specifically require one or the other.



Switches and misc daisy-chained devices: Every time you add another device into your analog A/V chain, you run the risk of degrading the signal. In the case of quality switches, it is generally okay to chain two-three with little or no degradation. However, take precautions against this by using well-shielded cables, cables that aren't much longer than you need them to be, devices that are confirmed to draw enough power to function properly, and no more intermediate connectors than you need for your convenience.

The 240p Video Test Suite: Calibrating your setup



Artemio's 240p Test Suite is a great way to determine how well your setup handles video content from a video game console. It is freely available for Genesis, Sega CD, Dreamcast, Gamecube, and Wii. If you have a way to run homebrew games for any of those consoles, then give it a shot. With the Sega CD and Dreamcast, it's as simple as burning a CD-R.

Detailed information to help you find RGB-capable models of your consoles, as well as instructions for how to add an RGB mod to other systems, can be found here.

Where to Buy Your Gear

- Solaris Japan sells brand new XRGB upscalers and related equipment, such as component/D-terminal adapters.
- Yahoo Japan Auctions might be a more viable second-hand market than eBay for XRGBs, provided that you can find a decent third-party courier to ship internationally.
- retro_console_accessories is a great US-based manufacturer for SCART cables. Specialty versions for different sync handling, audio handling, etc. are often available upon request.
-Retro Gaming Cables is a UK-based manufacturer of SCART cables for all types of retro consoles, similar to retro_consoles_accessories.
-Wookiewin is a US-based manufacturer and seller of various SCART to BNC adapter cables.
-Videogameperfection is the seller of the Open Source Scan Converter and an assortment of console modding parts.

Supplementary Reading

- RetroRGB: Tons of useful information on most of the above topics and more in even greater detail.
- Fudoh's retrogaming hardware page: A staggering amount of information on various video hardware that can be used for video game consoles. Fudoh is among the most experienced and knowledgeable enthusiasts on this subject on the entire Internet, and some of the above pictures were clipped from his website.
- XRGB wiki: Tips and recommendations for various XRGB units.
-Junker HQ's OSSC-specific wiki with a mountain of valuable information on using the OSSC.
- Shmups hardware forum: Lots of knowledgeable gamers and hardware modders post here.
ASSEMbler is another gaming forum with many useful threads and in-depth posts on retro gaming and hardware modding.

Supplementary Watching

My Life in Gaming - the best retro gaming channel revolving around getting the best AV quality out of old consoles.
Phil's Computer Lab - fantastic channel focused on all manner of retro PC gaming.
Last edited by Mega; 12-17-2016 at 08:36 PM.
Mega
Banned
(10-01-2016, 09:59 PM)
System-Specific Information

This chart lists all of the video signals that you can get out of these systems without modding them.



Y (green) - This output is available on all commonly used models of the system.
Y (yellow) - This output is available only on certain versions of the system.
NTSC - This output is available only on NTSC (US/JP) consoles.
PAL - This output is available only on PAL (EU/AU) consoles.
N - This output is not available on the system unless you mod it (or find an obscure specialty version that supports it).

Composite sync has been listed for completeness. In most cases, composite video can be used for sync instead. Do note, however, that the difference in the c-sync pin between regions on some consoles (SNES, Saturn) means that you may have to obtain SCART cables specifically designed to match the region of your console.

Shin Johnpv has kindly put together a list detailing the best stock connection for each console, followed by the best available mods for each system. Below you will find two versions of the table in JPG format.





FPGA Consoles

As retro gaming increases in popularity and years pass, the number of working consoles out in the wild will decrease. It's open to debate to what extent wear and parts degradation (e.g. old leaky capacitors) will affect future stock, but FPGA consoles give us an alternative to solely relying on aging native hardware or potentially inaccurate, input lag-ridden software emulation.

What is an FPGA?

Via Xilinx:
Field Programmable Gate Arrays (FPGAs) are semiconductor devices that are based around a matrix of configurable logic blocks (CLBs) connected via programmable interconnects. FPGAs can be reprogrammed to desired application or functionality requirements after manufacturing. This feature distinguishes FPGAs from Application Specific Integrated Circuits (ASICs), which are custom manufactured for specific design tasks.

Intel/Altera:
-FPGA functionality can change upon every power up of the device. So, when a design engineer wants to make a change, they can simply download a new configuration file into the device and try out the change.
-Often, changes can be made to the FPGA without making costly PC board changes.
-ASSPs and ASICs have fixed hardware functionality that can’t be changed without great cost and time.

"What is an FPGA?" - this video goes into more detail than most of us need, but still a great watch for anyone interested in getting a deep understanding of the technical specifics.

An FPGA game system can essentially be thought of as cycle-accurate hardware emulation with the gates being reconfigured to act identically to the video and audio chips of the original hardware. This isn't always 100% accurate as there is a dependence on available documentation of the hardware being imitated. And of course ongoing efforts factor into some cores being better and more accurate than others.

Available and upcoming options

retroUSB's AVS - mid-range NES hardware clone



-AVS's official NeoGAF thread with a full run-down on the console.
-My Life in Gaming's in-depth video review of the AVS

Specs summary:
- 720p widscreen HDMI output, 60hz and 50hz display modes
- Inbuilt NES four-score (four controller ports)
- 44.1khz HDMI output with full special cart expansion audio support.
- Variable pixel scaling including 1:1 integer mode, 4:3 and 5:3. Optional scanlines with various parameters.
- Front loading NES and top loading Famicom cartridge ports.
- HDMI Type A for video/audio, USB mini B for power and data upload
- Full cheat support (Game Genie, Action Replay, RAW)
- Online leaderboard support for supported games
- Fully upgradable system via USB
- 100% accurate hardware based support for all NES/Famicom carts and accessories including the Everdrive and the FDS.
- Price: $185


Analogue NT Mini - high-end NES hardware clone

*information forthcoming


MiST - hardware clone that supports many classic computers and some retro consoles



Primary focus is on the computer side: Amiga, Atari ST, Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum. It supports USB joysticks, controllers and keyboards, in addition to 9-pin accessories (classic Atari joystick, Genesis controllers).

Supported systems
Atari ST, Amiga (ECS, AGA), MSX, Atari XL800, Apple II Plus, Commodore 64, ZX Spectrum, BBC Micro, Amstrad, NES, Game Boy, chip-8, PC Engine/TurboGrafx (hucard), Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Sega Master System, ColecoVision, several arcade machines (Space Invaders, Pengo, Pacman, Moon Patrol, Galaxian) and more. Genesis and SNES may be possible in the future.

Specs summary:
- Altera Cyclone III EP3C25 FPGA. A roomy FPGA that's only utilized to 60% when configured as a complete Amiga
- 32 MBytes of 16 bit wide synchronous SDR SDRAM running at 133 MHz
- Fast 48MHz ARM based IO controller with 256KBytes flash and 64 kBytes SRAM providing enough room for many future extensions
- USB host controller with 4 port hub
- Two classic DB9 joystick connectors
- 18 bit analogue VGA output for 256.000 simultaneous colors
- Stereo audio output
- SD card slot for MMC, SD and SDHC cards
- Various debug and programming interfaces for developers and for updates

- Firmware and cores for the MiST
- What is the MIST FPGA computer?: PhilsComputerLab has the best video tutorials for setting up the MiST
- MIST FPGA Computer First Time Guide
- Amiga 500 core review and setup tutorial

Price: sold at several Euro shops for about 200 euros. Germany's Dragonbox at 168,06 € ($175.61) is the cheapest and personally recommended.
Last edited by Mega; 12-17-2016 at 08:17 PM.
Mega
Banned
(10-01-2016, 10:03 PM)
Second post reserved for future content.
Mega
Banned
(10-01-2016, 10:04 PM)
Third post reserved for more content down the line.
SheepyGuy
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:07 PM)
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S-Video Defense Force checking in!

Looking forward to seeing new OP content.
RoryDropkick
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:08 PM)
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Subbed! Great start, looking forward to seeing this thread grow like the last one!
Chacranajxy
I paid good money for this Dynex!
(10-01-2016, 10:08 PM)
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Why do you play this old shit?
BTails
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:11 PM)
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Mmmm, new thread smell. Welcome everyone to the Retro AV Club! There's no dumb questions, and there's no wrong answers... Except using RF and stretching old games to fit a 16:9 display, haha.

Can't wait to see what new developments this thread will contain! What new mods, cables, addons, or upscalers will we see develop as OT2 continues? Only time will tell...
Mega
Banned
(10-01-2016, 10:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Chacranajxy

Why do you play this old shit?

I got a Retron5 I play on my 1080p LCD with all the games on the SD card, no glitches or anything I swear, what is all this nerd shit lol
Ashby
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:17 PM)
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Love that new thread smell! Gonna repost this inquiry from end of the last thread:

Should PVMs have overscan tweaked? I loaded up 240p Test Suite and this image:



had the upper right corner a bit cut off (I didn't get the A13 text on my monitor). Looks like I can get into the service menu to adjust this but I'm afraid of screwing something up. Should I just leave it?
televator
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:18 PM)
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Retro AV club is official! Let's nerd the fuck out.
I wanna link a quick rundown of scaling methods as seen on Wikipedia.
NormalFish
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chacranajxy

Why do you play this old shit?

old games are objectively worse than new games, these guys are nuts

Last edited by NormalFish; 10-01-2016 at 10:20 PM.
televator
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by NormalFish

old games are objectively worse than new games, these guys are nuts

What's up with your Vita? Is that just a pun?
NormalFish
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by televator

What's up with your Vita? Is that just a pun?

it's doing well, thanks for asking
Heero5
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(10-01-2016, 10:26 PM)
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Subbed, loved the previous thread!
JP
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:27 PM)
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Good stuff.

It was only recently that I found out that RGB SCART wasn't used universally, it could have been a DF article that I read it on but I had no idea that the USA largely missed out on this wonderful format.

By the time PS1 hit it had become standard for me.
Timu
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(10-01-2016, 10:37 PM)
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Subbed, can't wait for this thread to take off!!!
Peagles
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(10-01-2016, 10:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by NormalFish

old games are objectively worse than new games, these guys are nuts

RF for life yo.

I had no idea I was in so deep, lucky number though!
Timu
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by NormalFish

old games are objectively worse than new games, these guys are nuts

How the hell did I have more posts than IrishNinja and 16bit?
dubc35
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:39 PM)
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Subbed, best thread on gaf

Sorry all phone pics, but cleaned up my new PVM last night (1954Q):

Hop on Pop! (1351Q on a 1954Q lol):

Started a replay for the 31 days of horror GAF gaming. Excuse the curve at the top and sexy on the side, it's due to the angle.

edit, ha! for clarification the sexy I am referring to is at the bottom of this chart, rofl

Last edited by dubc35; 10-01-2016 at 10:44 PM. Reason: stupid sexy Flanders
Mega
Banned
(10-01-2016, 10:41 PM)
^Nice get!

Originally Posted by Timu

How the hell did I have more posts than IrishNinja and 16bit?

How am I 5th?! I only joined a year ago and sometimes barely posted!
dubc35
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(10-01-2016, 10:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mega

^Nice get!

How am I 5th?! I only joined a year ago and sometimes barely posted!

Thanks, got a screaming deal on it too!
Last edited by dubc35; 10-01-2016 at 10:50 PM.
Peltz
Member
(10-01-2016, 10:59 PM)
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Oh man... I didn't even post in the thread for the first 100 or so pages and I still took one of the top spots. (I must really like hearing myself talk or something haha)

Officially subbed :-)
Voliko
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(10-01-2016, 11:11 PM)
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I still haven't found a "perfect" solution. The geometry on all my CRTs is unacceptable to me. Instantly noticeable on any uniform 2D scrolling section. Then there's the factors that simply aren't as good as a CRT with an LCD + framemeister- lag, worse blacks/colors, ghosting, etc...
Peltz
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(10-01-2016, 11:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Voliko

I still haven't found a "perfect" solution. The geometry on all my CRTs is unacceptable to me. Instantly noticeable on any uniform 2D scrolling section. Then there's the factors that simply aren't as good as a CRT with an LCD + framemeister- lag, worse blacks/colors, ghosting, etc...

Smaller sets tend to have the best geometry. Maybe look for some 14 inchers in your area? If you create a desk-type setup, 14" CRTs are a nice size and everything will look incredibly sharp.
New002
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(10-01-2016, 11:20 PM)
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Awwwwww yeah. Subbed!
VendettaRed07
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(10-01-2016, 11:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by BTails

Mmmm, new thread smell. Welcome everyone to the Retro AV Club! There's no dumb questions, and there's no wrong answers... Except using RF and stretching old games to fit a 16:9 display, haha.

Funny because I do play all my retro games at the moment on a widescreen. But it's not a normal hd widescreen display persay. its an old Sony Projection TV (not my set up just a rando picture for example)



I like this especially for the Psone, Saturn and n64 because the display (at least from what I can tell) smooths out imperfections that are normally more obvious on other tvs. And it doesn't "stretch" the image in the same way modern tvs do either because it isn't really 16:9 either

(but if I'm committing some act of treason here my apologies :P )
Madao
Member
(10-01-2016, 11:31 PM)
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when the last thread started, i only had a plasma with sub HD resolutions and no scalers.
by the end of it i had a 1080p TV and a FM and also got a CRT and several consoles modded for better output like RGB and HDMI.

let's see where i'll go during this new one. i bet i'll have a 4K TV by the end of it.
Fuzzy
I would bang a hot farmer!
(10-01-2016, 11:38 PM)
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Previous thread made me spend a bunch of money. Looking forward to spending more.
Peltz
Member
(10-01-2016, 11:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by VendettaRed07

Funny because I do play all my retro games at the moment on a widescreen. But it's not a normal hd widescreen display persay. its an old Sony Projection TV (not my set up just a rando picture for example)



I like this especially for the Psone, Saturn and n64 because the display (at least from what I can tell) smooths out imperfections that are normally more obvious on other tvs. And it doesn't "stretch" the image in the same way modern tvs do either because it isn't really 16:9 either

(but if I'm committing some act of treason here my apologies :P )

....Let's see some off-screen shots dude. We need to see those pixels in action. Get right up against the screen with your camera so we can see how that tank scales 240p!

And yea... that last thread cost me a small fortune, hehe.
Kiddy Dong
Member
(10-01-2016, 11:51 PM)
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Here's to another 400 pages! Welcome to the rabbit hole.

My hopes for this thread are for more research and discussion regarding the science behind input lag. It's why I started using CRTs again and is the driving force behind my interest in the technical AV side of gaming.
televator
Member
(10-01-2016, 11:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by NormalFish

it's doing well, thanks for asking

Holly shit! I post a loooooot in this topic. Yeeeeesh.

Well god damn it, I just posted again.
atomic moth
Member
(10-01-2016, 11:55 PM)
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Somewhere along my arcade adventures I acquired a sync-on-green VGA cable for my ps2. I believe it works on PS3 also.

I'm guessing that's comparable to component? There's an N on the chart next to VGA on PS2.
saveweyard
Member
(10-02-2016, 12:27 AM)
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Subscribed! Gonna try to be a regular contributor to this thread as I was slacking in the last one.
ponpo
( ≖‿≖)
(10-02-2016, 12:46 AM)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN3L1mLRWhs

I saw this PC Engine 720p DVI upscaler at BEEP akiba. It's like $400 USD so kind of insane compared to a Framemeister or whatever. Apparently the input lag is like 1 frame vs. 20 or whatever Framemeister is though, so if that matters and you have money to spend, dozo.

e: ms not frame, sorry.
Peltz
Member
(10-02-2016, 12:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by ponpo





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN3L1mLRWhs

I saw this PC Engine 720p DVI upscaler at BEEP akiba. It's like $400 USD so kind of insane compared to a Framemeister or whatever. Apparently the input lag is like 1 frame vs. 20 or whatever Framemeister is though, so if that matters and you have money to spend, dozo.

Looks great! I love that they demo it with both a direct capture as well as an off-screen video.
Omerta
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:11 AM)
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Just wanted to take the new thread opportunity to say Hi!

I've lurked in the old one for a while now as I begin my trip down this rabbit hole. I've started the process of re-collecting the systems that were really important to me when I was a kid and displaying them in my "man cave".

The man cave is already a place of vinyl, classic rock framed posters and a collection of guitars so the journey back is to retro gaming fits in there perfectly.

Currently, I'm sitting on a SNES, megadrive, N64 and a Wii (the wii is for my kids, mainly) and they're hooked up to a modern flat screen TV. They're connected to a switch box.

Next project is upscaling. I'm doing everything I can to avoid spending the $500 (Australian) on a Framemeister but I'm running out of options. I bought a cheap "upscaler" from eBay but it's useless. I'm considering buying a DVDO iscan HD which I can get for a good price ... anyone used these before?

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to this community for the info - your passion is contagious!
NormalFish
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:13 AM)
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Could look in to an OSSC, but it has its quirks and isn't readily available just yet.
sixteen-bit
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(10-02-2016, 01:14 AM)
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Whatever happened to missle?
dhonk
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Omerta

Just wanted to take the new thread opportunity to say Hi!

I've lurked in the old one for a while now as I begin my trip down this rabbit hole. I've started the process of re-collecting the systems that were really important to me when I was a kid and displaying them in my "man cave".

The man cave is already a place of vinyl, classic rock framed posters and a collection of guitars so the journey back is to retro gaming fits in there perfectly.

Currently, I'm sitting on a SNES, megadrive, N64 and a Wii (the wii is for my kids, mainly) and they're hooked up to a modern flat screen TV. They're connected to a switch box.

Next project is upscaling. I'm doing everything I can to avoid spending the $500 (Australian) on a Framemeister but I'm running out of options. I bought a cheap "upscaler" from eBay but it's useless. I'm considering buying a DVDO is an HD which I can get for a good price ... anyone used these before?

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to this community for the info - your passion is contagious!

Not sure what the situation is currently, but it's worth waiting for an OSSC? Someone else can chime in on that.
Peltz
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by sixteen-bit

Whatever happened to missle?

He's around.
Timu
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by ponpo





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN3L1mLRWhs

I saw this PC Engine 720p DVI upscaler at BEEP akiba. It's like $400 USD so kind of insane compared to a Framemeister or whatever. Apparently the input lag is like 1 frame vs. 20 or whatever Framemeister is though, so if that matters and you have money to spend, dozo.

Very nice, I wouldn't mind having one of those.
catabarez
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by ponpo





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN3L1mLRWhs

I saw this PC Engine 720p DVI upscaler at BEEP akiba. It's like $400 USD so kind of insane compared to a Framemeister or whatever. Apparently the input lag is like 1 frame vs. 20 or whatever Framemeister is though, so if that matters and you have money to spend, dozo.

No CD attachment though.
SheepyGuy
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by ponpo





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN3L1mLRWhs

I saw this PC Engine 720p DVI upscaler at BEEP akiba. It's like $400 USD so kind of insane compared to a Framemeister or whatever. Apparently the input lag is like 1 frame vs. 20 or whatever Framemeister is though, so if that matters and you have money to spend, dozo.

(1ms vs 20ms? No way the FM does 20 frames of lag)

$400 and you can't even hook up the CD...
Rongolian
Banned
(10-02-2016, 01:24 AM)
Great work on the new thread!

The old thread was actually what led me to discover GAF
Peltz
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rongolian

Great work on the new thread!

The old thread was actually what led me to discover GAF

Me too!
Brhoom
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:45 AM)
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I'm still not sure about which one to buy, the framister or OSSC.

Retrorgb says OSSC is better for 4K (yet I don't why is that)

And here a couple of you really sold me on the framister and they look great on 4K.

So why is the OSSC better for 4K?
CrispyGoomba
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:48 AM)
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I've had a Framemeister for a few days now but I'm just waiting on the SCART cables to arrive! I'm pretty excited, I picked up Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy 9 on PS1 so we'll see how it goes.

I'll have to see if PS1 games look any better while playing on a PS2, but if it's not much of a difference, I'm just going to stick to the original hardware.
SheepyGuy
Member
(10-02-2016, 01:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Brhoom

I'm still not sure about which one to buy, the framister or OSSC.

Retrorgb says OSSC is better for 4K (yet I don't why is that)

And here a couple of you really sold me on the framister and they look great on 4K.

So why is the OSSC better for 4K?

I like the Framemeister because it totally solves analog/240p input on displays going forward. You have everything you could possibly need for inputs, it does a nice job of reformatting them for HDMI spec, and outputs them as a full HDMI signal with audio. It means that the next time I want to buy a TV I just need to focus on the things you'd want for a good TV in 2016, rather than worrying about how it handles 240p, whether it has component inputs, etc etc.

Also I know I keep harping on about how useful s-video is, but really, if you want a mod-less, cheap way of getting good video for GB Player or N64, s-video's the best option. And it's just missing on the OSSC.

Only real downsides are the extra 1 frame of lag, the slowness in switching modes, and price.
Last edited by SheepyGuy; 10-02-2016 at 02:41 AM.
televator
Member
(10-02-2016, 02:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by CrispyGoomba

I've had a Framemeister for a few days now but I'm just waiting on the SCART cables to arrive! I'm pretty excited, I picked up Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy 9 on PS1 so we'll see how it goes.

I'll have to see if PS1 games look any better while playing on a PS2, but if it's not much of a difference, I'm just going to stick to the original hardware.

Well according to one member and their screenshots, PS2 might make dithering worse on PS1 games.

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