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LordOfChaos
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:22 AM)
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Do we know how large the cumulative world is (all new levels), compared to base Destiny 1 or 1 with all DLC? That's my main question, followed by load times.
jviggy43
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:25 AM)

Originally Posted by FUNKNOWN iXi

Being a Bungie fan is like being in a perpetual state of making a bowl of cereal, then opening up the fridge to the realization that you have no milk.

The sad part is, it didn't used to be like this at all. I want someone to detail the changes this company went through when they started working on this series and the problems with development. Just make it like 5k pages Idc I'd read the whole thing.
Orochinagis
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by LordOfChaos

Do we know how large the cumulative world is (all new levels), compared to base Destiny 1 or 1 with all DLC? That's my main question, followed by load times.

In the presentation they mentioned only one zone will be the biggest they ever made
Trace
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Orochinagis

In the presentation they mentioned only one zone will be the biggest they ever made

They never used the word "only" btw. They didn't describe the other world sizes at all.
jviggy43
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:30 AM)

Originally Posted by LordOfChaos

Do we know how large the cumulative world is (all new levels), compared to base Destiny 1 or 1 with all DLC? That's my main question, followed by load times.

Jason and the Kotaku podcast said from what they played they felt that, content wise, it will be similar to the launch of destiny 1.
border
wears the band's shirts to the band's concerts
can't comprehend the origin of terms
(05-20-2017, 04:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by jviggy43

I wouldn't count the taken as a true 4th class, Its a reskinned version of enemies you have been fighting with a couple new features. And maybe thats true but it depends on how they interact with you. Brutes and Drones acted drastically different from the other alien races. So far the new classes of cabal, while aesthetically different, dont look like they perform radically different from the other types of enemies weve fought so far.

I thought that the Taken were pretty imaginative, even if they used models and animations from currently existing factions. All their behaviors were pretty appreciably different. I wouldn't count them (or the SIVA Fallen) as a 4th faction just because I don't think it is likely that they will be used in Destiny 2.

In Halo 2 Brutes were watered down Elites, and only appeared in the final few levels of the game. I wouldn't say they felt "dramatically differeent" at all. Instead of recharging shields, you just popped off their armor and they went berserk. Would you honestly classify their AI behaviors as "radically different"?

And if were going to be condescending about Halo 2 being a real sequel, I mean, no one was having the conversation were having about this reveal back then when they demo'd the first in game footage. That was the way it should be done.

Are we just going to disregard that the first Halo 2 demo was absolutely nothing like the final game, and didn't feature any new enemies? For the record I think Halo 2 was absolutely a real sequel.....but maybe benefited from much lower expectations. Nobody asked why Halo 2/3 didn't introduce a new enemy faction, even though the question would be equally as valid as it is with Destiny 2. People were happy with Covenant & Flood for like a decade. I don't understand why people think a new faction is needed after just a few years.
Last edited by border; 05-20-2017 at 04:36 AM.
Defuser
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(05-20-2017, 04:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by OriginalPoe

Explain Rise of Iron being the exact thing everyone DIDN'T want from the expansion after Taken King - very bland story, bland mission structure, just a return to Vanilla Destiny 1 all around.

Vanilla Destiny's problem regarding bland story and mission structure is due to lack of narrative direction. There was no rhyme or reason why you were doing it in the first place and the NPCs have very little involvement. At least Rise of Iron had a narrative direction and mission structure but it was on a smaller scale which is why it pales in comparison to the Taken King but it's definitely no Vanilla Destiny.

But you have admit, Destiny 2 is done by Luke and the people who made the Taken King, not the Live Team who made Rise of Iron so you know Destiny 2 will be a good experience.
Draper
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(05-20-2017, 04:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by jviggy43

Jason and the Kotaku podcast said from what they played they felt that, content wise, it will be similar to the launch of destiny 1.

Gee.

Zuss.
Laurel_McFang
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:38 AM)
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The reason is we accepted Destiny 1 as a kind of beta test an extended voyage into the possibilities of a massive online shooter. So by the end of it Bungie had a decent game and some solid tech, but the issue is Destiny 2 so far fails to deliver the next-gen ludological solutions to the massive online game enviroment. Strikes are still redudant grind a thons and while yes they do look hectic the one shown failed to take the possibility of co-operative gameplay further. The story mission showed improvements, but still felt like teen fiction compared to the sombering tones of Halo. Basically we thought Destiny 2 would be the time Bungie nails it. The second they realize some fundamental aspect of online play and knock it out of the park instead it looks like an iterative sequel still struggling with the limitations the original could never shurg off. The game just seems tense and I continue to feel that somewhere deep down there Destiny was the result of some key insight we have yet to fully realize, its like a gem waiting to glitter. Bungie should cut down on graphics and double down on innovation. That's nice that Destiny is a cool world, but come on man make a game worth playing for endless hours not an MMO in space. It has failed to solve the problem all MMOs suffer from: why bother with it when offline games and more focused online multiplayer games have better gameplay and are more fun. Its a nice social space, but not much else.
Aztechnology
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(05-20-2017, 04:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by jviggy43

Jason and the Kotaku podcast said from what they played they felt that, content wise, it will be similar to the launch of destiny 1.

On a single planet, they must mean... right? MotherF$%#ER No way they could take three years to put out a title with the depth of Destiny one with the amount of assets they were able to recycle.
ExVicis
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by thebigmachine

Never forget

Look the one strike that was shown was literally more of the same. If Destiny 2 is so revolutionary from 1 that it needed a reboot then it failed to show me that in the Gameplay Reveal Event that they hyped to shit a month ago. How hard was it for them to show us something fresh? Can't wait for the season pass reveal to show off all the cool new stuff you need to pay more for on top of the $60 retail price. Pretty disappointed.

I'm glad someone posted Jeff's whole thing, I was thinking of that the entire time I've been posting about the reveal.
Trace
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Laurel_McFang

It has failed to solve the problem all MMOs suffer from: why bother with it when offline games and more focused online multiplayer games have better gameplay and are more fun. Its a nice social space, but not much else.

Because this mythical offline and focused online multiplayer game doesn't exist. Destiny has the best FPS gameplay of any console game at the moment, period.
HeeHo
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:45 AM)

Originally Posted by Mattenth


"Destiny 2" just looks like more of the same. I mean, they're describing it in the same terms as Destiny 1. N new raids. Z new maps. X new strikes.

I don't play Destiny but this is exactly what gave me that impression.
WickedLaharl
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by jviggy43

Jason and the Kotaku podcast said from what they played they felt that, content wise, it will be similar to the launch of destiny 1.

I wouldn't be surprised since they know people will buy it no matter what.
border
wears the band's shirts to the band's concerts
can't comprehend the origin of terms
(05-20-2017, 04:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by Laurel_McFang

It has failed to solve the problem all MMOs suffer from: why bother with it when offline games and more focused online multiplayer games have better gameplay and are more fun. Its a nice social space, but not much else.

The answer will ultimately be the same as Destiny 1: because nobody does it like Destiny.

There are better loot games, but they're not FPS. There are better MMOs, but they aren't as approachable and bite-sized. There are better RPGs, but they don't have the userbase or extensive social features that really pay off. There are better shooters, but they are almost exclusively focused on PVP with a loot system based on cosmetics rather than actual upgrades.

It's actually kind of surprising that Destiny released nearly 3 years ago, and nobody has really stepped forward to challenge its accomplishments (aside from maybe The Division). It took far less time for people to start grooming games to rival a phenomenon like Dark Souls. At this point I would have expected all the major publishers and first parties to have Destiny-likes in the works, yet it seems like almost nobody is working towards it.
Last edited by border; 05-20-2017 at 04:49 AM.
jviggy43
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:48 AM)

Originally Posted by border

I thought that the Taken were pretty imaginative, even if they used models and animations from currently existing factions. All their behaviors were pretty appreciably different. I wouldn't count them (or the SIVA Fallen) as a 4th faction just because I don't think it is likely that they will be used in Destiny 2.

In Halo 2 Brutes were watered down Elites, and only appeared in the final few levels of the game. I wouldn't say they felt "dramatically differeent" at all. Instead of recharging shields, you just popped off their armor and they went berserk. Would you honestly classify their AI behaviors as "radically different"?



Are we just going to disregard that the first Halo 2 demo was absolutely nothing like the final game, and didn't feature any new enemies? For the record I think Halo 2 was absolutely a real sequel.....but maybe benefited from much lower expectations. Nobody asked why Halo 2/3 didn't introduce a new enemy faction, even though the question would be equally as valid as it is with Destiny 2. People were happy with Covenant & Flood for like a decade. I don't understand why people think a new faction is needed after just a few years.

I actually enjoyed the taken when TTK first came out, but now theyre probably my least favorite enemy to fight. Idk what changed, most likely the fact that they have abilities that just slow me down in the process of killing them and make me wait for them to stop doing that ability.

In terms of Brute vs Elites, Brutes were unique in that 2 headshots were required to take them down, however the first one triggered an enraged mode that, if they were close to you, made it difficult to hit the second right away-especially so when they were charging at you. Elites were much more cautious, taking cover when you got them low on health to recharge shields. There was a pretty big difference between how you approached both enemies, much more so than anything in destiny imo.

Also Halo 2 did feature new enemies however. Brutes and Drones. Drones swarming you and flying around overhead and firing shots down at you was a pretty interesting addition given the number of them at each encounter, even if they were sparsely used.

And while we never played the actual E3 level we did have a couple of earth levels that functioned very similarly. If you want to make that complaint about Halo 3 I would be more inclined to agree with you tbh. Although I would note that they too added subclasses of existing enemy types just as destiny appears to be doing in D2. The bigger problem with complaints about enemies in destiny vs halo, for me at least, is the current versions of regular enemies just aren't that interesting to fight wheras the halo enemies had sublime AI that kept fighting them interesting-along with the additional gameplay implementations of each iteration that altered their behavior. Maybe Bungie tweaked the AI in this game but it looked pretty similar from what they showed off, heres hoping at least.

All of this is obviously subject to change. We only have what they said and demoed so who knows its all speculation. A new enemy class would have at least given us something that varied in terms of how the game was playing on screen to help differentiate this from the first.

Originally Posted by Trace

Because this mythical offline and focused online multiplayer game doesn't exist. Destiny has the best FPS gameplay of any console game at the moment, period.

Destiny gameplay is very very good. But I would put OW and TF above it, if not at least on the same level.
Last edited by jviggy43; 05-20-2017 at 04:53 AM.
Atomski
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:49 AM)
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I felt really burned by Destiny.. it was a game with good shooting but lacked in everything else. I don't really know what it needs to get me excited again but I did not see it in that stream.

Also I can only imagine that this will be full of expansions again that make your progress pointless. If I buy it I will probably wait till there is a complete version with all dlc.. probably a year after release.

Edit: this also just reminds me where is Borderworld?
Last edited by Atomski; 05-20-2017 at 04:54 AM.
Chuck Norris
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(05-20-2017, 04:52 AM)
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Destiny was a cross gen game and this doesn't look much different. The fact they are bragging like they are pushing PS4 Pro beyond its limits is pretty laughable
10k
I am not employed in the video game industry and I was previously banned after posting a bunch of questionable NX rumors I collected by talking to people on Twitter.
(05-20-2017, 04:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by bananafactory

Because to the casual Destiny player who didn't spent a lot of time with it, it looks like largely more of the same

So, it looks like a sequel?
oti
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:57 AM)
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I wouldn't dismiss it as DLC but to me the whole reasoning as to why they'd call it Destiny 2 and kill off all the older characters, was to offer something they couldn't do with Destiny 1. That and the whole narrative that Destiny 1 wasn't really delivering the developers' vision in the first place made me hopeful this would be vastly... bigger and different in a sense.

Maybe my expectations were too high though. And maybe it will be easier now to implement events or distribute content more smoothly. That's great and all but on the surface it doesn't look that different to me.
Toni
Banned
(05-20-2017, 04:57 AM)

Originally Posted by Trace

Because this mythical offline and focused online multiplayer game doesn't exist. Destiny has the best FPS gameplay of any console game at the moment, period.

But it doesn't though. Not in a world where Titanfall 2 and Overwatch exist.

Destiny has fierce competition now.
Trace
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(05-20-2017, 04:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Toni

But it doesn't though. Not in a world where Titanfall 2 and Overwatch exist.

Destiny has fierce competition now.

Neither of which are PvE, which is where the main focus of the game is, at least for me.
ExVicis
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(05-20-2017, 04:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by border

They already have 3 enemy factions (4 if you count the Taken), only one of which has been sufficiently fleshed out in the overall story. I'm not sure what good it does to introduce yet another faction. They've added at least 3 units to the Cabal. If they do that for all the factions, that's at least 9 new enemy types. That seems like it should be more than sufficient, considering that people are holding up the 2 new enemy types in Halo 2 as an example of how to make a REAL sequel.

This is a game where it's advertised from the beginning of the game that Humanity is basically at war with an enemy that more or less inhabits the entire Galaxy and uses many races to attack Earth and Humanity. That means Humanity's enemy is basically the ENTIRE Galaxy if not the Universe. So out of all the limittless possibilities in Space filled with enemies... you only ever encounter 4 different kinds of aliens? Halo 1 had more alien species.

And honestly, and this I will say this is very subjective, I think the Cabal is super boring compared to everyone else.
SolidChamp
Hydrox Hero
(05-20-2017, 04:59 AM)
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I'm so glad I'm not plunging into the shit on this one.

I'll just reserve judgement until the game is out and has been reviewed. Then we'll know for sure whether it's Destiny 1.5 or not.

If it's as light on content as the first game was when it was released, then it'll be a hard pass for me in favor of other games.
KrM DeLorean
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(05-20-2017, 05:05 AM)
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Some people are fine with the "Madden" formula and buy those games every year. Others expect more. With D1 Bungie outright lied to us about features that would be in the final game. (Go watch those E3 reveals and the viddocs, is a cringe fest of features and experiences they never implemented)

Whatever, shit happens in game development.

For D2 Bungie promised nothing this time around, but we as players expected more and let our imaginations get the best of us as to what D2 could offer.

Personally looking forward to some surprises in E3, but let's be real here. New enemy races and BRAND NEW sub classes should have been a minimum. Disappointed but they promised us nothing this time. Over 700 hours in Destiny 1, I'll be there for D2 on PC. But my imagination is in check this time.
Lemondish
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(05-20-2017, 05:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Atomski

I felt really burned by Destiny.. it was a game with good shooting but lacked in everything else. I don't really know what it needs to get me excited again but I did not see it in that stream.

Also I can only imagine that this will be full of expansions again that make your progress pointless. If I buy it I will probably wait till there is a complete version with all dlc.. probably a year after release.

Edit: this also just reminds me where is Borderworld?

Sounds like MMO style games, regardless the genre, aren't for you.
ExVicis
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(05-20-2017, 05:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by border

Nobody asked why Halo 2/3 didn't introduce a new enemy faction, even though the question would be equally as valid as it is with Destiny 2. People were happy with Covenant & Flood for like a decade. I don't understand why people think a new faction is needed after just a few years.

Huh? But it did though. Besides introducing Brutes and the weird Rebel Covenant Faction with weird Armor there were whole sections that featured Robot Construct enemies.

Halo 3 didn't introduce new factions but certainly more Flood enemy types were added.
jviggy43
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:08 AM)

Originally Posted by KrM DeLorean

Some people are fine with the "Madden" formula and buy those games every year. Others expect more. With D1 Bungie outright lied to us about features that would be in the final game. (Go watch those E3 reveals and the viddocs, is a cringe fest of features and experiences they never implemented)

Whatever, shit happens in game development.

For D2 Bungie promised nothing this time around, but we as players expected more and let our imaginations get the best of us as to what D2 could offer.

Personally looking forward to some surprises in E3, but let's be real here. New enemy races and BRAND NEW sub classes should have been a minimum. Disappointed but they promised us nothing this time. Over 700 hours in Destiny 1, I'll be there for D2 on PC. But my imagination is in check this time.

Thats not really true

It allows us to introduce the major advancements and improvements that all of us expect from a sequel, ensuring it will be the best game we can create, unencumbered by the past

Papercuts
fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
(05-20-2017, 05:13 AM)
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I'm still trying to stay reserved to see if they're holding back...something. But seeing strike gameplay of 2, I wouldn't be able to tell if not for the video title.

I have a TON of issues with Destiny but the idea of the game is still up my alley, I expected a bigger jump initially once they ditched 360/PS3 and the Taken King seemed like a good direction. So for now I'm let down.
AXE
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(05-20-2017, 05:16 AM)
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OP can't be serious.

If you just tinker with stuff under the hood and use 90% what looked like old assets... I'm sorry to tell you bud, but thats a lot closer to a DLC than a brand new AAA game.

Skipping gladly. King DLC was great fun but Bungie doesn't know how to cater to this end-game PvE player.
border
wears the band's shirts to the band's concerts
can't comprehend the origin of terms
(05-20-2017, 05:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by jviggy43

In terms of Brute vs Elites, Brutes were unique in that 2 headshots were required to take them down, however the first one triggered an enraged mode that, if they were close to you, made it difficult to hit the second right away-especially so when they were charging at you. Elites were much more cautious, taking cover when you got them low on health to recharge shields. There was a pretty big difference between how you approached both enemies, much more so than anything in destiny imo.

A new enemy class would have at least given us something that varied in terms of how the game was playing on screen to help differentiate this from the first.

We'll probably have to put a pin in this discussion then, since it's not exactly fair to compare AI behaviors in a 13-year-old game against those displayed in a few short gameplay videos of an unreleased game.

A new enemy faction would have amounted to a superficial difference at best. Imagine if instead of giving new units to Horde/Cabal/Fallen, all those new units were given to a new 4th faction with a different look but the same AI behaviors. It would feel more like a sequel but ultimately be the same. Similarly, imagine if instead of reworking 3 subclasses, the introduced a new class that had the same 3 abilities as the new subclasses. It seems like they have leaned more towards familiarity in a way that is kind of off-putting towards people that wanted to see bigger changes. Maybe it would have been smarter to pour all their new ideas into a new race and a new class.

Originally Posted by ExVicis

So out of all the limittless possibilities in Space filled with enemies... you only ever encounter 4 different kinds of aliens? Halo 1 had more alien species.

Halo 1 has two factions -- Covenant and Flood. And while they are each distinct, I'd argue that the Flood are much more boring than any of the original Halo factions.

Originally Posted by ExVicis

Huh? But it did though. Besides introducing Brutes and the weird Rebel Covenant Faction with weird Armor there were whole sections that featured Robot Construct enemies.

Brutes are still a part of the Covenant. I would probably argue that the factions in Destiny are way more prominent and frequently explored than the Brutes or robots were in Halo 2. I mean they got a couple levels, but the memorable parts of those games were still Covenant and Flood.
Last edited by border; 05-20-2017 at 05:22 AM.
RoboPlato
I'd be in the dick
(05-20-2017, 05:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by jviggy43

Lost in the shuffle, I'm now realizing that since we no longer have to go to orbit, they serve even less of a purpose. I'd love to get a mission or mode like they did for halo reach space battles. That was awesome.

I would love it if you could move a bit around inside the ship, have your vault stored on it, and maybe customize the inside of it a bit. Being able to have some medals or trophies to display in it for various things would be neat too.
ExVicis
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Papercuts

I'm still trying to stay reserved to see if they're holding back...something. But seeing strike gameplay of 2, I wouldn't be able to tell if not for the video title.

I have a TON of issues with Destiny but the idea of the game is still up my alley, I expected a bigger jump initially once they ditched 360/PS3 and the Taken King seemed like a good direction. So for now I'm let down.

I'm not writing it off completely but I'm not afraid to say how I feel about it either. If later on they're like "Oh you want more gameplay features? We got gameplay features!" and they show off all this amazing shit I never saw before I'm ready to get back on board and admit they were able to Deliver a solid better experience of Destiny and knocked it out of the park and honestly that's what I want. I didn't go into the stream prepared to hate anything, I was fully prepared to go "Yep that's what I wanted Bungie! You're showing me some cool new stuff that both makes sense for the game but changes it entirely". It's really disheartening that not one thing did that. Instead of All Current Gen Sequel level innovation I got TTK level innovation, which is only good if you're making an expansion like TTK.

Originally Posted by border

Halo 1 has two factions -- Covenant and Flood. And while they are each distinct, I'd argue that the Flood are much more boring than any of the original Halo factions.

Honestly I'm saying more on the enemy types than the factions. You have Grunts, Jackals, Elites, Hunters and the Flood (and there's more variation there but I lumped them together for some reason) and they all each have their own AI tactics, way of fighting and weapons they come with. Either way though that's 4 separate aliens with some belonging to the same force but still separate aliens with different looks and identities to them.

Cabal enemy types as an example lack in that, you have normal Cabal guy and Psychic Guy but between that they lack a lot of identity variance.
Last edited by ExVicis; 05-20-2017 at 05:23 AM.
Sanke__
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:20 AM)
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Basically for me it's just the first item on ur list

Only 3 new subclasses is NOT ok

Hopefully there are more, but I'm not holding my breath

And granted it also looks like an extremely large expansion, not just a dlc and certainly not a standard destiny dlc
Flipyap
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by SargerusBR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFSQZKkmetU

Same designs, same AI patterns, same models.

Why do they keep designing bosses with legs if they're not going to use them? Guys, we can see that your enemies are turrets. Giving them legs only makes them look like really dumb turrets.
R0ckman
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(05-20-2017, 05:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by FUNKNOWN iXi

Being a Bungie fan is like being in a perpetual state of making a bowl of cereal, then opening up the fridge to the realization that you have no milk.

God, this is... perfect!
HP_Wuvcraft
(05-20-2017, 05:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mattenth

For me, Destiny 1 was a colossal disappointment. Maybe one of the worst game purchases I've ever made.

"Destiny 2" just looks like more of the same. I mean, they're describing it in the same terms as Destiny 1. N new raids. Z new maps. X new strikes.



It feels like Destiny 1.5 because the original still feels like Destiny 0.5.

Yeah, the way they talk about Destiny 2, they use expansion phrases and terminology. It was off-setting.
ExVicis
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(05-20-2017, 05:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by border

We'll probably have to put a pin in this discussion then, since it's not exactly fair to compare AI behaviors in a 13-year-old game against those displayed in a few short gameplay videos of an unreleased game.

A new enemy faction would have amounted to a superficial difference at best. Imagine if instead of giving new units to Horde/Cabal/Fallen, all those new units were given to a new 4th faction with a different look but the same AI behaviors. It would feel more like a sequel but ultimately be the same. Similarly, imagine if instead of reworking 3 subclasses, the introduced a new class that had the same 3 abilities as the new subclasses. It seems like they have leaned more towards familiarity in a way that is kind of off-putting towards people that wanted to see bigger changes. Maybe it would have been smarter to pour all their new ideas into a new race and a new class.

I think they could have made a 4th faction that just flies in the face of everything else they made and it would have satisfied that. Easily could have made a beast, animalistic type enemy that operates like the the Zerg in that they just try to swarm and overwhelm with numbers with AI behaviors that accompany that strategy. I'm not sure if maybe for some reason that's unrealistic but that's something I would maybe expect if they made a new faction to spice things up.
Last edited by ExVicis; 05-20-2017 at 05:32 AM.
border
wears the band's shirts to the band's concerts
can't comprehend the origin of terms
(05-20-2017, 05:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by ExVicis

Cabal enemy types as an example lack in that, you have normal Cabal guy and Psychic Guy but between that they lack a lot of identity variance.

Cabal were the least developed in Destiny 1, not really even appearing until the final hours of the campaign.....and even then having to share the spotlight with the Vex. It appears they've worked to fix that in the sequel though, introducing at least 3 new enemy types. If you're willing to differentiate between Elites, Grunts, and Jackals, I think you ought to be able to see that there's at least as many if not more types even in Destiny 1/2. Weak melee, weak ranged, shielded ranged, high-HP ranged, high HP melee, vertically mobile shielded, etc.

Originally Posted by ExVicis

I think they could have made a 4th faction that just flies in the face of everything else they made and it would have satisfied that. Easily could have made a beast, animalistic type enemy that operates like the the Zerg in that they just try to swarm and overwhelm with numbers with AI behaviors that accompany that strategy.

Isn't that kind of how the Hive already behaves, though?
Last edited by border; 05-20-2017 at 05:35 AM.
gutter_trash
Banned
(05-20-2017, 05:33 AM)
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I have a Love/Hate relationship with Destiny 1;

the Destiny 2 reveal felt like a rebooted Destiny 1 back to Year One with the addition of a Campaign mode
ExVicis
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by border

Cabal were the least developed in Destiny 1, not really even appearing until the final hours of the campaign.....and even then having to share the spotlight with the Vex. It appears they've worked to fix that in the sequel though, introducing at least 3 new enemy types. If you're willing to differentiate between Elites, Grunts, and Jackals, I think you ought to be able to see that there's at least as many if not more types even in Destiny 1/2. Weak melee, weak ranged, shielded ranged, high-HP ranged, high HP melee, etc.

The Cabal Identity might be better now in Destiny 2 if they really worked on all the things they can do but like...for example Brutes who operated like Elites in some cases, raging and suddenly charging at you after shooting their head might seem trivial but in certain situations on Legendary I would get wrecked by that if I wasn't careful. Especially if they close the distance between you sniping their head once and you don't get the second shot off. Then of course the way Brutes operate changes depended on their weapons too, a Brute with a GravHammer is very different from one with a Plasma Rifle. And that's very simplified and concentrating on Brutes. I mean Elites switch tactics all the time, especially when invisible or with swords. Grunts can scatter but reform at your flanks if you're not careful or may suicide you. Lot of stuff going on there.

Cabal has a bit of variance in the small agile guys with Psychic blasts and the bigger guys but in terms of tactics, the bigger Cabal guys usually operate the same with no huge changes in behavior as the fight progresses.. The smaller guys will sometimes switch between shooting from cover to a Psychic Blast but it really doesn't change their dynamic. Beyond those things though they feel very samey, fight one Cabal guy you mostly understand what's going on with them.


I will say though I think the Hive is probably the most interesting and varied of the enemies and I feel like that's a good example of what they could do for enemies.

Originally Posted by border

Isn't that kind of how the Hive already behaves, though?

In a sense yes but that's really only the thralls and they still have the appearance of humanoid, I'm talking more like Animals on four legs, able to jump high and run on walls so they don't suffer from the problem Thralls do. But again like I said, I find the Hive probably the most interesting and fun to fight out of all the enemy factions, especially since they have so many enemy types that do and fulfill a bunch of different roles compared to some of the others.
Last edited by ExVicis; 05-20-2017 at 05:53 AM.
daman824
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(05-20-2017, 05:52 AM)
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For fans of the first game, d2 will no doubt be worth $60. The d1 expansions were 1/3 the price and had a lot less content. But it just doesn't feel likes full sequel. Only one new weapon type, no cool new enemies to fight, no new classes, only one new raid.

Had it been announced as an expansion it would have been getting a new campaign, 4 new playspaces, some new multiplayer maps, a few new subclasses, and a lot of qol improvements for $60.

I guess I was just expecting...more. There are like 3 studios working on this game. And who knows how much money is being spent on it.
Last edited by daman824; 05-20-2017 at 05:55 AM.
Captiosus
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(05-20-2017, 05:56 AM)
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I think Datto unintentionally explained it in his impressions video when he said that, from his time playing, he felt like it was like taking the same step from year one Destiny to Taken King Destiny, only a bit more grandiose.

I don't necessarily agree but I'm just a casual observer watching vids and tweets come flying in whereas Datto's actually played it. If it ends up feeling like he describes, I can see why some would equate it similarly to "DLC" even though in terms of playable content that we've been shown it would technically be a sequel.
Twilight Gap
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(05-20-2017, 06:00 AM)
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Destiny's AI just isn't as fun as Bungie's Halo games were. In most of the Halo levels, you'd have limited ammo and you'd have to swap your weapon out at some point with something better. And with Halo, that often meant picking up something that dropped from the AI. This also led to rather clever design where they'd have a Fuel Rod general show up at one point, and then throw Hunters at you later down the road. So if you picked up the Fuel Rod from the general, you'd be able to kill the Hunters easier. They didn't just have giant health bars either, but shields and helmets and armor that made them more vulnerable as the fight progressed. This even carried over to 343's Prometheans.

With Destiny, and as far as we can see with the sequel at this point, you almost always have unlimited ammo at your disposal and all your weapons in your pocket. Your enemies have non-regenerating health bars and their behaviors don't change, whether they're full health or about to die, and if they weren't shielded, all you had to do was shoot at them until they died.

Obviously the combat model is different. In Destiny, you don't pick weapons off of enemies, and ammo isn't a precious resource. Death rarely resets the fight and you always have a bunch of abilities you can use at any point, so the AI is really just there to be canon fodder for you to mow down.

But that's all the more reason why seeing the same enemies with virtually the same behaviors carries more stigma in Destiny than it did in Bungie's past games. It's like "yea I know exactly how I'm going to fight these guys" whereas in ODST and Reach, going up and punching the Covenant wasn't the best idea anymore like it was before. Yea they still had the same enemies, but they got smarter (at least in Bungie's games), more aggressive and more intelligent. With the exception of the Taken, I never felt that in Destiny. The AI combatants are never challenging until you have burns on, and at that point you may as well be fighting aimbots because nobody liks being one shotted.

I hope there's more in store for Destiny 2's AI. It doesn't matter if the shooting feels good if the guys you're shooting aren't fun to shoot at. That's why I played more PvP than PvE.
Last edited by Twilight Gap; 05-20-2017 at 06:04 AM.
border
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(05-20-2017, 06:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by ExVicis

In a sense yes but that's really only the thralls and they still have the appearance of humanoid, I'm talking more like Animals on four legs, able to jump high and run on walls so they don't suffer from the problem Thralls do. But again like I said, I find the Hive probably the most interesting and fun to fight out of all the enemy factions, especially since they have so many enemy types that do and fulfill a bunch of different roles compared to some of the others.

It seems to me that they are trying to elevate the Cabal up to the level of the Hive though. Warbeasts will behave similarly to Thralls, rushing in with melee attacks. The flamethrower dudes have jetpacks so they will be somewhere in between a Wizard and a Knight....no shielding capability, but dealing out splash damage with vertical movmement.
jviggy43
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(05-20-2017, 06:05 AM)

Originally Posted by border

We'll probably have to put a pin in this discussion then, since it's not exactly fair to compare AI behaviors in a 13-year-old game against those displayed in a few short gameplay videos of an unreleased game.

A new enemy faction would have amounted to a superficial difference at best. Imagine if instead of giving new units to Horde/Cabal/Fallen, all those new units were given to a new 4th faction with a different look but the same AI behaviors. It would feel more like a sequel but ultimately be the same. Similarly, imagine if instead of reworking 3 subclasses, the introduced a new class that had the same 3 abilities as the new subclasses. It seems like they have leaned more towards familiarity in a way that is kind of off-putting towards people that wanted to see bigger changes. Maybe it would have been smarter to pour all their new ideas into a new race and a new class.


.

Yeah we can circle back when we have the final product. I was however at least thinking that if they did put in a new enemy class, that they'd do it right and not just make it like the other classes with little difference. Honestly what you described is likely the route they would have went with, but my *hopes* when asserting for a new class, was more along the lines of a truly unique new addition of enemies to fight.

I assume we wont have to wait long to get a lot more details given E3 is around the corner and the beta can't be long after.
cripterion
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(05-20-2017, 06:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by RichiRamjag

I was hoping to never see vex again. Most boring strikes and people always leave lol.

Would you say you feel vexed?

More seriously I guess I got caught up in the hype and was expecting too much. I seriously hope there will be other big name players that drop some games that tap into that market and that tick all the boxes people love like loot, coop, exploration all meshed in a thrilling, challenging adventure with a solid and well presented story.

What I'm saying is Bungie is quite lucky they kinda have the market to themselves, for now. I'll get the game on pc but will be interesting to see if they retain such a huge player base as on consoles let's say 6 to 12 months down the line.
pantsmith
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(05-20-2017, 06:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by AXE

OP can't be serious.

If you just tinker with stuff under the hood and use 90% what looked like old assets... I'm sorry to tell you bud, but thats a lot closer to a DLC than a brand new AAA game.

Skipping gladly. King DLC was great fun but Bungie doesn't know how to cater to this end-game PvE player.

"90% old assets" is hyperbole when the four new zones are pretty much unlike anything from Destiny 1.

So that leaves what, the enemies? Even there we saw brand new enemies and new models/abilities on old enemies. And so what if old enemies return? Mario has been jumping on koopas and goombas all these years and its yet to grow old because the gameplay is still excellent. Same goes for Destiny.
gutter_trash
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(05-20-2017, 06:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by pantsmith

"90% old assets" is hyperbole when the four new zones are pretty much unlike anything from Destiny 1.

So that leaves what, the enemies? Even there we saw brand new enemies and new models/abilities on old enemies. And so what if old enemies return? Mario has been jumping on koopas and goombas all these years and its yet to grow old because the gameplay is still excellent. Same goes for Destiny.

the new Vex Strike still looks very Vexxy and undestinguishable from past Vex centric Strikes
pantsmith
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(05-20-2017, 06:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by gutter_trash

the Vex levels still look very Vexxy,

Thats their aesthetic? It would be weird if time travelling robots, who supposedly have wormed their way into the fabric of reality, suddenly changed their architecture. "Oh, you know what, we are still undying and eternal but we like rounded edges and circles now."

There are only so many music notes and yet, thousands of years later, we still have new songs in spite of a little repitition. Its all in the arrangement of individual parts.

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