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Vox: Panic is setting in on the left.

FWIW the democratic candidate in 2016 won 124,917 votes and Ossoff won 124,893 despite it being

1) in opposition
2) with the benefit of massive fundraising
3) with a lot of hype from progressive/democratic sources

If it didn't look winnable, then it shouldn't have been positioned as such.

GA 6 2016:
Price: 191,792

GA 6 2017:
Handel: 134,595

GOP also spent a fuckton of money...

Almost like there's a difference between Presidential Election Day and Special, not even midterms, elections.

Almost like Ossoff almost matching a Presidential Election number is a sign off good turn out not a sign of failure
 

Volimar

Member
I want to see the overlap between folks who Ossoff wasn't left enough that;s why he lost a previously GOP +20 district and those calling for Pelosi's head, who if she were to go now would be replaced by someone far less progressive than she is.


Yep. The only people on the left panicking are the ones who seem to think every election has a 50/50 shot of winning, and if we don't win it must be because we screwed up.
 

rjinaz

Member
I don't understand the panic. The losses we were dealt were in heavy Republican areas. I mean yeah it sucks we didn't have any middle ground areas first we could swing instead get handed a few losses in a row, but the numbers so far are very promising for Democrats. If we can keep the same kind of swing going, we're looking pretty good for 2018. Three more years of Donald Trump and Americans will have had enough. I don't see anyway he remains president without Hillary Clinton as his opponent except maybe if Pelosi runs because Republicans hate powerful women, and sadly, so does the American public.

I'm just not worried at all. Republicans want you to be worried and you're falling for it. They may act like they are celebrating over these recent wins but those wins are Bozo buttons. In reality they will be pretty damn nervous next year.
 
You guys are banking so heavily on midterms that I can't even fathom what will happen to the country if Democrats lose there.
 

Blader

Member
Well that person is an asshole. But as far as i'm concerned, anecdotal asshole doesn't equate to "leftists" (and if he said that, he's not one). Knowing quite a lot of leftists and following a bunch on youtube like Garrett or Hbomb, Contra, S&J and such, none would reject "identity politics"
I mean, it's not like he's the lone voice on this. There were plenty of liberals after the election and still today who insist we need to reduce, if not abandon, our regard for "identity politics" (a pretty loathsome term
imo) to recapture the white working class. As if that's not its own brand of identity politics!
 
Yep. The only people on the left panicking are the ones who seem to think every election has a 50/50 shot of winning, and if we don't win it must be because we screwed up.

I'd also then love to see the overlap with those who think (regardless of outcome of 2016) that Biden is a better option for the left than Clinton was.
 
This country is long overdue for a Red Revolution. In an already established and industrialized society it could still end up with a free democratic system.
 
I mean, it's not like he's the lone voice on this. There were plenty of liberals after the election and still today who insist we need to reduce, if not abandon, our regard for "identity politics" (a pretty loathsome term
imo) to recapture the white working class. As if that's not its own brand of identity politics!

Literally the guy who most wants Pelosi's job is one of them.
 

MrHoot

Member
I mean, it's not like he's the lone voice on this. There were plenty of liberals after the election and still today who insist we need to reduce, if not abandon, our regard for "identity politics" (a pretty loathsome term
imo) to recapture the white working class. As if that's not its own brand of identity politics!

Liberals, yes, not leftists
 
I mean, it's not like he's the lone voice on this. There were plenty of liberals after the election and still today who insist we need to reduce, if not abandon, our regard for "identity politics" (a pretty loathsome term
imo) to recapture the white working class. As if that's not its own brand of identity politics!

As a leftist, I've been saying you should lie to the Trumpeters. Reality has no meaning to them.
 

Steel

Banned
Well that person is an asshole. But as far as i'm concerned, anecdotal asshole doesn't equate to "leftists" (and if he said that, he's not one). Knowing quite a lot of leftists and following a bunch on youtube like Garrett or Hbomb, Contra, S&J and such, none would reject "identity politics"

Who identifies themselves as "leftist" is so arbitrary it means nothing. The lines get drawn over and over again and some "leftists" make it sound entirely like being left is down to how passionately you say things and not policy positions which, again, is arbitrary. Or is it not accepting campaign donations? Or is it supporting single payer, in which case Pelosi and Harry Reid were lefties all along?

There are so many god damned policies with so many possible solutions and reasoning behind them that using the left right scale is an absolute waste of time and mental effort.
 
GA 6 2016:
Price: 191,792

GA 6 2017:
Handel: 134,595

GOP also spent a fuckton of money...

Almost like there's a difference between Presidential Election Day and Special, not even midterms, elections.

Almost like Ossoff almost matching a Presidential Election number is a sign off good turn out not a sign of failure

There's a difference between the party in power defending a seat, and a party in opposition using it as a way to build momentum and act as a release valve on dissatisfaction with the party in power.

What those numbers tell me is democrats were motivated to show up, but they didn't grow their base or meaningfully convince past GOP voters.
 
There's a difference between the party in power defending a seat, and a party in opposition using it as a way to build momentum and act as a release valve on dissatisfaction with the party in power.

What those numbers tell me is democrats were motivated to show up, but they didn't grow their base or meaningfully convince past GOP voters.

They significantly grew their base. It's not the Democrats that should be panicking after seeing the special election results.

We're basically seeing the exact same warning signs that led to 2006 and 2010 unfold before our eyes.
 

rjinaz

Member
As a leftist, I've been saying you should lie to the Trumpeters. Reality has no meaning to them.

Truth be told, if Democrats ran on lies like Republicans rather than truths, they would likely be in power. The American public is by and large incapable of critical thinking. They just want to hear pretty words that will make them feel better about the hardships they are facing. Republicans hand that to them with several servings. Truth and honestly and frankly reality is not something the American public want. It saddens me, but I think it's true. If they fail to follow through, you just have to keep selling them the lie, make it seem like you'll get there eventually, and they'll believe you. They prove it everyday when they keep electing Republicans that work only to benefit the wealthy.
 
Honestly, dems need someone with more charisma that can tap into the emotional reasons people vote. American politics has more or less devolved into this pseudo-spectator sport where people like getting behind a candidate like their favorite sports team. Your average voter doesn't understand nuance that a lot of more left-leaning positions take. Break it down to appeal to their emotional sensibilities and have someone that has the appeal of more than a dead fish can deliver to them.
 

DarkKyo

Member
I've already emotionally and spiritually given up on this country. Too many animals programmed to vote against themselves and the country, there's literally nothing you can do in the current system that makes any difference at all with leaders this evil and indifferent and people this stupid and hateful.

Maybe it will change someday, but it will take decades.
 

Steel

Banned
Truth be told, if Democrats ran on lies like Republicans rather than truths, they would likely be in power. The American public is by and large incapable of critical thinking. They just want to hear pretty words that will make them feel better about the hardships they are facing. Republicans hand that to them with several servings. Truth and honestly and frankly reality is not something the American public want. It saddens me, but I think it's true.

I have to agree with this. It's dumb, but just put an actor out with a pretty face and a silver tongue to spin a story and you'd win every election. Hell, that's how Regan got his landslide.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Honestly, dems need someone with more charisma that can tap into the emotional reasons people vote. American politics has more or less devolved into this pseudo-spectator sport where people like getting behind a candidate like their favorite sports team. Your average voter doesn't understand nuance that a lot of more left-leaning positions take. Break it down to appeal to their emotional sensibilities and have someone that has the appeal of more than a dead fish can deliver to them.

Charisma has little to do with it. You need to fight for policies people need and want.
 

Somnid

Member
There's a lot of problems the democrats have to take more seriously. But the special election was just a distraction. It's nice you made progress on the bottom, you need that for sustainable wins, but your message at the top isn't good enough. You have to sell hope, you can't just be a realist and even if you are you need to start by asking for the universe and bargain down rather than ask for modest gains and get half of them. You haven't realized that you fight at a systemic disadvantage and haven't sought to address that.
 
There's a difference between the party in power defending a seat, and a party in opposition using it as a way to build momentum and act as a release valve on dissatisfaction with the party in power.

What those numbers tell me is democrats were motivated to show up, but they didn't grow their base or meaningfully convince past GOP voters.

Like in the end this was still a local election, not a national one.

GA 6 2014 (a mid term election)

Price: 139,018
Robert Montigel (D): 71,486


But sure Ossoff doubling the last mid-term Democratic numbers means nothing...
 

rjinaz

Member
Honestly, dems need someone with more charisma that can tap into the emotional reasons people vote. American politics has more or less devolved into this pseudo-spectator sport where people like getting behind a candidate like their favorite sports team. Your average voter doesn't understand nuance that a lot of more left-leaning positions take. Break it down to appeal to their emotional sensibilities and have someone that has the appeal of more than a dead fish can deliver to them.

See this points to a huge problem with the party. That the Democrats need some charismatic miracle person while the Right can throw out a turd like Donald Trump and he wins. There is something not working with the party.
 
Charisma has little to do with it. You need to fight for policies people need and want.

Charisma is pretty much 100% how presidents are picked in modern times.

Trump, Obama, W, Clinton, HW (compared to who he ran against at least), Reagan

See this points to a huge problem with the party. That the Democrats need some charismatic miracle person while the Right can throw out a turd like Donald Trump and he wins. There is something not working with the party.

Trump was more charismatic than Clinton. It still matters for the GOP. Look at Romney vs Obama or Dole vs Clinton.
 

DarkKyo

Member
This was a rich, white district home to Newt. They don't give a fuck about minimum wage.

If they didn't give a fuck about it they wouldn't have come out to vote against any possible increase so forcefully. They clearly, actively give a fuck about keeping the poor, poor.
 

Steel

Banned
Charisma has little to do with it. You need to fight for policies people need and want.

If that were true and people wanted leftist policies Al Gore woulda won in a landslide. But instead Gore, with his lack of charisma was beaten by W Bush who is barely more charismatic and was kind of a dumbass.

Putting faith in voters to parse out policy is a mistake.
 

Crocodile

Member
See this points to a huge problem with the party. That the Democrats need some charismatic miracle person while the Right can throw out a turd like Donald Trump and he wins. There is something not working with the party.

The Republican base is more homogeneous and has pretty much devolved in part to Right Wing media bubble. Make sit easier for a candidate like Trump (who still barely won).
 

DonShula

Member
Charisma has little to do with it. You need to fight for policies people need and want.

The policies people actually need are not the ones they want (see the majority of Trump voters who would be better served voting Democrat). Much of that base is voting against its own interests, and is too proud to change.

Quite honestly it seems that if you want to make a meaningful change while in power, you need to showboat your way to power in the first place. Hillary had a plan that largely made sense, and we see how that turned out given the rules of the game.
 
This election really seems like an odd benchmark to use for overall electoral performance and, as a result, an overall policy shift.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I mean I've been shying away from this comparison for various reasons but people are talking about them both so much anyway that the hypocrisy is starting to get annoying. Corbyn outperforming expectations to almost achieve victory cannot be an astonishing energizing comback for the left while every Dem run thus far in a special election, from the Bernielike in Montana to the bank exec in South Carolina, coming close to victory represents a "failure of the centrists". Either Corbyn failed, or Dems are poised for a huge success.
 

rjinaz

Member
Charisma is pretty much 100% how presidents are picked in modern times.

Trump, Obama, W, Clinton, HW (compared to who he ran against at least), Reagan



Trump was more charismatic than Clinton. It still matters for the GOP. Look at Romney vs Obama or Dole vs Clinton.

Fair enough. If there is a lesson to be learned it's never put out there somebody that too many people don't have a favorable opinion of. Because even though Hillary would have been a far greater president than Trump, in the end, people hated that woman. And not just die hard Republicans, I mean people that usually don't give a crap about politics hated Clinton. I know because I had so many people tell me they just didn't like that woman, people that never talk politics. It was a mistake that the party needs to learn from.
 

Juice

Member
Like it or not, house races are becoming nationalized.

For the republicans, this is easy, because they have an iron-clad ideology and propaganda machine that has just-short-of-radicalized 30% of the electorate and has smoothed over any internal squabbling by becoming so singular in their list of policy prescriptions & identities.

The democrats are incredibly pluralistic/cosmopolitan by comparison, and are largely defined by the set of people who've opted out or were left out by the GOP's maniacal focus. This means that what worked for the GOP (purity tests, intense loyalty, and leaning into the nationalization of every race) are actually destablizing the democratic party.

Before Reagan, the GOP was actually more of the "big tent" party with competing ideologies and constituencies, and the way they handled it then was to begrudgingly support the McCarthyite & Rockefeller wings during elections and then battle things out during governance. The democrats, meanwhile, are spilling most of their blood in primaries and election run-up navel gazing ("Maybe I'd vote for her if she had a positive message" nonsense). That moral high ground might result in a bunch of liberal individuals with a clean conscience, but the broader effect is that Republicans win.

All told, we don't have much control who's in the DNC/DCC leadership or which candidates they field. It's clear that progressives did a bunch of damage to Ossoff by simply complaining about him, to no productive effect. The only sensible path forward in a first-past-the-post system like ours is to vote brainlessly for whatever D is on the ticket in hopes of eventually unseating the Republican lock on the house and state legislatures prior to the 2020 redistricting.
 

Steel

Banned
The problem is the Democrats suck at marketing themselves compared to the GOP.

This is true. The dems have no media machine. They don't have a uniform message. Republicans have the strategy of always attack never defend. Dems both attack and defend which hurts them.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The problem is the Democrats suck at marketing themselves compared to the GOP.

The problem for the Democrats is that they're about a dozen different groups unified behind a certain shared sense of self interest (also a reasonable chunk of their base, straight white dudes, doesn't fear for their very existence like black people, LGBT+people, and evangelicals do)
 

rjinaz

Member
This election really seems like an odd benchmark to use for overall electoral performance and, as a result, an overall policy shift.

I agree. It's all these losses in a row that's messing with people's emotions. It's causing people to ignore the big picture. People will move on from these elections though, in 2018 most Americans won't even remember them.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Like it or not, house races are becoming nationalized.

For the republicans, this is easy, because they have an iron-clad ideology and propaganda machine that has just-short-of-radicalized 30% of the electorate and has smoothed over any internal squabbling by becoming so singular in their list of policy prescriptions & identities.

This isn't true. The Republican Party has a much less coherent ideology than the Democratic Party does. If you look at the reported opinions of Republican vs. Democratic voters, the Democratic Party is significantly more internally homogeneous.

Anyone saying 'the Republicans all believe in the same thing but Democrats are loads of different groups!' completely misunderstands what happened in 2016 and what is happening now.
 

Crocodile

Member
I mean I've been shying away from this comparison for various reasons but people are talking about them both so much anyway that the hypocrisy is starting to get annoying. Corbyn outperforming expectations to almost achieve victory cannot be an astonishing energizing comback for the left while every Dem run thus far in a special election, from the Bernielike in Montana to the bank exec in South Carolina, coming close to victory represents a "failure of the centrists". Either Corbyn failed, or Dems are poised for a huge success.

This is a good point I hadn't given much thought to before <3
 

Steel

Banned
This isn't true. The Republican Party has a much less coherent ideology than the Democratic Party does. If you look at the reported opinions of Republican vs. Democratic voters, the Democratic Party is significantly more internally homogeneous.

Anyone saying 'the Republicans all believe in the same thing but Democrats are loads of different groups!' completely misunderstands what happened in 2016 and what is happening now.

You're talking about voters not politicians. If you ask 5 republican politicians about a story about Trump, they'll have the same exact talking point answer(Likely "Fake news" "But Obama..." or "But Hillary"). Do the same for dems and they'll think about it and give a thought out answer that's individual to them.
 
The party&#8203; that's supposed to give a fuck has to motivate it's base to give a fuck first. The Democratic party simply isn't doing that. Running as a diet Republican won't flip Republican votes. The actual Republicans will still vote for the actual Republican.
 
I don't think people should freak out too much about GA-6, but the party definitely needs a better message going into 2018. As for the "panic" that's apparently setting in, I'm not seeing it and I'm part of plenty of activist groups. Everyone was down for like a day after the election and are back at it now.
 
Charisma has little to do with it. You need to fight for policies people need and want.

Nope, its charisma. The general public isnt down in the weeds looking at policy. They look at two candidates, see which one they are more comfortable with, and go with them. Clinton (Bill), W, Obama, Trump, they all were more charismatic than their opponents. Democrats in particular damn near need a rock star to win.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
You're talking about voters not politicians. If you ask 5 republican politicians about a story about Trump, they'll have the same exact talking point answer.

Right, but this is an argument for forcibly homogenising Democratic Party officials.
 

Lime

Member
Says a left wing that wants to chase after the White-working-class and wants to abandon "Identity Politics".

*sigh*

Sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to leftist politics across gender, race, class, ability, sexuality, and so forth. The fact of the matter is that you cannot separate class or race or gender from one another, so the centrist take on only thinking of one-dimensionally at race or gender without taking into account the other is simply astoundingly ignorant and frankly selfish. And that's not addressing the right winged economic politics of the Democratic Party
 
Right, but this is an argument for forcibly homogenising Democratic Party officials.

But democratic voters are the group who have varying opinions on how things should or need to be. This creates a difficult message for the DNC to put together and rally a base around. How do you get up there to swing votes when you have 4-5 groups of democrats demanding varying goals?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
But democratic voters are the group who have varying opinions on how things should or need to be. This creates a difficult message for the DNC to put together and rally a base around. How do you get up there to swing votes when you have 4-5 groups of democrats demanding varying goals?

Again, this isn't true. The Republican Party has more internal factions than the Democratic Party does, not fewer.
 
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