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Anonymous Indie Devs speak out on the growing pains of Switch eShop Curation

This is mainly a NoA problem, from what I understand, and they probably are understaffed, but not opening the floodgates till later is an outright stated policy from Nintendo. I also imagine that they'll want stock up more on dev kits before they really open things up.
 

D_prOdigy

Member
I really really recommend people listen to that Nintendo Voice Chat podcast with Damon Baker in which he was quite candid about hands-on curation being the name of the game this time around.

My eyebrows were palpably raised during that interview because I wasn't entirely convinced it wasn't a step back from the relatively open-doors days from the Wii U eshop - which I recall was a broadly warm period in terms of Nintendo-Indies relations.

I'm still not very convinced about it, but I've come to think it's a case of Nintendo being very bullish about their platform. We've all come to be in the mindset that Nintendo should take what they can get from any third party, but if Switch is a success, maybe they can afford to be more stringent about what gets through the gates, and say "if you want to be on this ecosystem, it would be in your interest to make your product more worthwhile than an old port".

Developers who are experiencing inertia have every right to be frustrated (even if I think Adelman's tweet was surprisingly misjudged). But I'm also not going to be outraged over Nintendo doing what they think is best for the long-term health of their platform, especially when I AM happy with the indie software they've put on the plate for the near future.
 

Jubenhimer

Member
I really really recommend people listen to that Nintendo Voice Chat podcast with Damon Baker in which he was quite candid about hands-on curation being the name of the game this time around.

My eyebrows were palpably raised during that interview because I wasn't entirely convinced it wasn't a step back from the relatively open-doors days from the Wii U eshop - which I recall was a broadly warm period in terms of Nintendo-Indies relations.

I'm still not very convinced about it, but I've come to think it's a case of Nintendo being very bullish about their platform. We've all come to be in the mindset that Nintendo should take what they can get from any third party, but if Switch is a success, maybe they can afford to be more stringent about what gets through the gates, and say "if you want to be on this ecosystem, it would be in your interest to make your product more worthwhile than an old port".

Developers who are experiencing inertia have every right to be frustrated (even if I think Adelman's tweet was surprisingly misjudged). But I'm also not going to be outraged over Nintendo doing what they think is best for the long-term health of their platform, especially when I AM happy with the indie software they've put on the plate for the near future.

Plus, Baker's words imply that this curation system is only temporary, and that they don't plan on sticking with it for long. My guess is that they want to establish a clear reputation for the Switch before they go open door.
 

Durante

Member
It is about the whim of a curator; the whole point is that if you desire a curated experience, you are giving up your freedom of choice to somebody else to manage on your behalf.

The only way to get a curated experience tailored to your own taste is to personally choose what titles you are or are not interested in. Any system reliant on someone elses tastes or perceptions will - inevitably and unavoidably - cause you to miss out on titles that you might otherwise desire.

Feel free to go and find any random GAF topic about "most over rated game" or "most under rated game" as anecdotal evidence on how wildly divergent tastes can be, even amongst the sub set of "games rated highly by GAF"
Very well said.
 

jariw

Member
FWIW, "Anonymous Indie Dev #1" sounds very much like how Mike at RCMADIAX phrase things (regarding how the game is rated and such). RCMADIAX's tweets has recently been increasingly negative towards the Switch, and it's pretty obvious from the tweets that he hasn't been approved to be a developer for the Switch.
 
These accounts are directly at odds with what I am hearing personally from indie friends.
I am sure the truth is somewhere in the middle, but I really do think somewhat heavy handed curation at the beginning of the system's life cycle really is the best choice.

I also couldn't help but chuckle at this part:

I reached out to them very early on back when the Switch was still called NX and people didn't even know if it was a handheld or a console. It was a bit of a slap in the face that after all of the years of partnership, I would get very formal corporate responses to my emails.

Surprise! A huge worldwide corporation is run like a business! I will never understand why some indies expect billion dollar corporations to bend over backwards to their every demand. In my experience most of them understand that they are the outliers inside the industry and know how to work within the system.
 

Jackano

Member
Sad to hear about the issues other devs has had. I guess I was lucky as I got the scope from NOE last summer and a devkit later in the year.

It seems the complains reported in this topic are geared toward mainly Nintendo of America, and less or even not at all at NoE.
Good to hear your own experience, the schedule you experienced is way better. Not perfect but that's the least they could do for you, I always remember that Iwata slide with GC on it :D
 

jariw

Member
It seems the complains reported in this topic are geared toward mainly Nintendo of America, and less or even not at all at NoE.
Good to hear your own experience, the schedule you experienced is way better. Not perfect but that's the least they could do for you, I always remember that Iwata slide with GC on it :D

FWIW, NoE never had the shovelware issues on the Wii U eShop on the same level as NoA had. Not at all.
 

Hero

Member
Yeah, and I feel like after he left he's had a bit of an axe to grind with Nintendo, so I always take what he says with a grain of salt.

Also, this was posted on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/Dan_Adelman/status/857107410586140673

https://twitter.com/AxiomVerge/status/857442880834592769

Dan I think got caught up in the Twitter mentality of posting something without even really thinking about it. Always seemed like a good guy but I'm sure he had frustrations with Nintendo both as an employee and as someone that has to deal with them as a partner now. Good on him for apologizing.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
FWIW, "Anonymous Indie Dev #1" sounds very much like how Mike at RCMADIAX phrase things (regarding how the game is rated and such). RCMADIAX's tweets has recently been increasingly negative towards the Switch, and it's pretty obvious from the tweets that he hasn't been approved to be a developer for the Switch.

Aside from the fact that Nintendo Life "only sought out Nindies for this article that have released highly-rated titles, and not those with releases that were arguably not of a high standard on previous eShops", I'm pretty sure RCMADIAX hates NL after they wrote a long article exposing the fact that almost all of his games are licensed Construct 2 and Unity tutorials being resold for a profit, so I don't think he'd be so eager to give them a quote.
 

jariw

Member
Aside from the fact that Nintendo Life "only sought out Nindies for this article that have released highly-rated titles, and not those with releases that were arguably not of a high standard on previous eShops", I'm pretty sure RCMADIAX hates NL after they wrote a long article exposing the fact that almost all of his games are licensed Construct 2 and Unity tutorials being resold for a profit, so I don't think he'd be so eager to give them a quote.

You're probably right. Didn't know that about the NL article and RCMADIAX.

EDIT: Found the article you were referring to (September 4th, 2016), and this seems interesting in the current context:
"As we've highlighted above, the objective fact here is that it is a valid practice to purchase products from asset stores and, even in cases where relatively few changes are made, to sell them commercially under license if the terms allow it. Subjectively, though, it's certainly legitimate to ask whether publishing games of this nature is in the good faith of what console gamers, in particular, expect. We've written a number of times over the last 4-5 years about the issue of quality control on the eShop, and whether some games should be passed for a console store. One side of the argument is to allow a free market with basic lot check standards, effectively what we have now with the eShop. Another side is to desire a 'gatekeeping' system, where Nintendo actively accepts and rejects games more stringently."

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...rcmadiax_games_on_the_wii_u_and_new_3ds_eshop

Yeah, and I feel like after he left he's had a bit of an axe to grind with Nintendo, so I always take what he says with a grain of salt.

Also, this was posted on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/Dan_Adelman/status/857107410586140673

https://twitter.com/AxiomVerge/status/857442880834592769

I would be interested to know what happened if Tom Happ would offer a few updates to the main game (skins, new game modes, secret rooms, that kind of things) for a Switch version - would that lead to an immediate green light from Nintendo regarding Axiom Verge? Or are there specific Switch features that are required, like local multiplayer support or HD rumble?
 

EDarkness

Member
When do you guys think the floodgates will open? After E3? Holiday season? Next year?

Honestly, I hope it doesn't. The just need to do a better job of looking over projects and communicating with devs. Not everyone needs to be on the shop and I'd be totally okay if they never accepted my project as it stands now. Folks act like Nintendo owes them something and they don't. Devs don't owe Nintendo anything either. If the two can't come to a mutual agreement, then just move on with life. These devs act like Nintendo must let them develop for the NS and that's just not how this works.

Also, I haven't heard anything about "no ports", though they have stated that they're interested in interesting ideas that aren't too far off. They didn't say anything about ports. Nothing wrong with that, though. I can see why some of these guys they didn't give dev kits to. I get that people are excited to be part of the early life of the NS, but there's no reason to be all hostile about it.
 

Fiendcode

Member
Plus, Baker's words imply that this curation system is only temporary, and that they don't plan on sticking with it for long. My guess is that they want to establish a clear reputation for the Switch before they go open door.
I just assumed this was how all consoles launched. Wii U, Xbox One and even PS4 all also curated download releases for 6 months to a year before each got their indie programs in full swing. This seems like a 2017 initiative for Switch before opening the floodgates to everyone.
 

J@hranimo

Banned
The ports thing is so strange considering half the store is neo geo stuff.

I'm going to assume that is a special deal made with Hamster Corp and Nintendo, since they seem to be rolling out a number of retro games in an emulated fashion. Not making any excuses for Nintendo, but these releases seem to be a bit of a different situation compared to individual games by independent developers.
 

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
The treatment of Plantera DX on Western eShops seems to point toward holiday season as when NoA (and NoE?) opens the floodgates.

https://miketendo64.com/2017/05/08/...han-just-a-port-ratalaika-games-explains-why/
I expect once the bigger games like Stardew Valley and exclusives like Steamworld Dig 2 and Runner 3 are out they will open the gates.

The first couple months are the only period where they can somehow afford to be more selective to make sure the bigger releases have some weeks in the spotlight for themselves. This will stop once the floodgates open for Indie releases and the VC starts.
 
Nintendo is one of the largest, recognisable multi-national corporations out there.

Just because Nintendo don't want some garage developer on their console, it doesn't mean they're a bad company.

Go out and earn your own stripes. A multi-national doesn't need to bend over for your services.
 

Robin64

Member
I mean, if Dev #1 really is the RCMADIAX guy... I wouldn't give them any of that. All of their games are so low effort that it's actually palpable

I really hope we don't see any RCMADIAX games on Switch. Everything's he's released has been the kind of thing you experiment with in Construct 2, but then you go further and refine it, polish it, make it into a proper game etc. He just doesn't do the "go further" bit.

As a Construct 2 user, I know how quick it is to throw together the stuff he releases, and I am not exaggerating when I say I can replicate any of his games in a day.

If you want to see what Construct 2 users should be producing, check out our own Ashodin's psyscrolr.
 
I'd be more inclined to believe these devs if a) some of them didn't write like teenagers on the internet and b) if they actually did some in depth comparisons between how Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft handle indie games- otherwise this is meaningless. Like, we know closed platforms are much more difficult for indie devs, it's nothing new.


Same as saying "old fossil brits in charge" no?

No. It's very well documented as a racial slur. Just google it.
 

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
indie dev 1 sounds childish. So what you get corperate sounding emails.
Nintendo probably got like hundreds of inquiries from Indie devs wanting to put their games on Switch in a small period of time.... Some of them got offended when they weren't treated like royalty and realized that were probably gonna miss the launch period. Obvious it sucks because this could have been quite the income source for smaller devs, still don't think the spoiled brat attitude is helpful. If your game and content is good it should still do well releasing a buy later... Especially of the installed base keep growing.
 
The eShop is simply not ready for a big catalogue of games. It's very much an MVP at the moment.

It's also fair to argue that this is a bit backward for a legendary tech company. The comments about needing more staff seem reasonable.

I think it's pretty obvious Nintendo themselves had no idea the Switch would take off this fast, and they didn't staff up fast enough to meet developer interest. Also, given past eshop offerings, it is fair to say most people -and Nintendo themselves- thought that most people would be going physical with the Switch, when the opposite appears to be true.

Knowing Nintendo and how little they expanded their corporate and development presence when they were rolling in Wii and DS money, I wouldn;t exp[ect them to be throwing money at new staff or studious toi handle this.
 

gafneo

Banned
Kind of sucks that the Switch is doing well. Really wanted Nintendo to go third party. They would not support even the Wii and DS with enough third party with the money they were pumping out. Now that we have Zelda and Mario, there is very little to look forward to besides third party. At this point if they don't care about ramping it up, they should just announce the thing as a first party only machine.
 
Kind of sucks that the Switch is doing well. Really wanted Nintendo to go third party. They would not support even the Wii and DS with enough third party with the money they were pumping out. Now that we have Zelda and Mario, there is very little to look forward to besides third party. At this point if they don't care about ramping it up, they should just announce the thing as a first party only machine.

yeah this is one of the greatest post I have ever read! lol
 
Kind of sucks that the Switch is doing well. Really wanted Nintendo to go third party. They would not support even the Wii and DS with enough third party with the money they were pumping out. Now that we have Zelda and Mario, there is very little to look forward to besides third party. At this point if they don't care about ramping it up, they should just announce the thing as a first party only machine.

356.jpg
 
Kind of sucks that the Switch is doing well. Really wanted Nintendo to go third party. They would not support even the Wii and DS with enough third party with the money they were pumping out. Now that we have Zelda and Mario, there is very little to look forward to besides third party. At this point if they don't care about ramping it up, they should just announce the thing as a first party only machine.
You're as backwards as your username implies if you feel that anything you expressed in your post is substantiated.
 

Ninja Dom

Member
Kind of sucks that the Switch is doing well. Really wanted Nintendo to go third party. They would not support even the Wii and DS with enough third party with the money they were pumping out. Now that we have Zelda and Mario, there is very little to look forward to besides third party. At this point if they don't care about ramping it up, they should just announce the thing as a first party only machine.

This is an odd post from you as it seems you have a Switch going by the eShop Switch threads that you post in.
 

jariw

Member
The ports thing is so strange considering half the store is neo geo stuff.

Personally, I see the New Geo games as "we aren't ready with our VC stuff yet, so let's do something else in the meantime" games.

I mean, it's an expanded port with extra content that's exclusive to the Switch version? Doesn't that put it in the category of "needs to have something special or before other platforms for Switch" like nearly everything else?

Sure, but I doubt the quality of the game is what NoA looks for at this early state of the eShop. I don't think it's shovelware, but I get the impression that NoA looks more for games that market the Switch "experience" right now. (After all, the game will be available on the Japanese eShop, so people can fetch it there early if they want to.)
 
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