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Only Xbox One X will download the 4K assets.

Matt

Member
Like I said earlier, Bioshock and Batman Collection was shipped on two. The publishers could easily have thrown in a code for one of them.
They were sold on two because they were two games in one package, where inherently two executables makes sense. If the games weren't both available physically, the overall package would have been hurt.

Also, being HD rereleases gives publishers a lot of room to give up the little extra cost for the disk.
 

UKUMI0

Member
I don't see your problem. With your download you can just use background download over night and it will get you 43 GB in eight hours.

They should have also mentioned that Australia has some pretty harsh data caps. In outback Australia you are normally looking at 12-25Gb as the data cap with 0.5-1Tb for the more built up areas. I haven't personally seen any higher than 1Tb as the norm.

I was lucky that Optus sold an limitless cap when Netflix launched so I don't actually have to worry about data. I am also lucky enough to live in an area that got the new network before the government fucked it all up so I am getting at least 40mb/s (on a bad day).
 

MilkyJoe

Member
Jesus, since when has downloads suddenly become some massive wall. PC players have to download everything and no one bats an eyelid.
 

Raide

Member
Jesus, since when has downloads suddenly become some massive wall. PC players have to download everything and no one bats an eyelid.

I think it's possibly the fact PC get access to way more storage options than the majority of home consoles.
 

Matt

Member
Jesus, since when has downloads suddenly become some massive wall. PC players have to download everything and no one bats an eyelid.
For some people thy always have been. And among those people, consoles used to provide a way for them to game without having their download speed or their cap be an issue. It makes sense for now those problems to come to a head.
 

leeh

Member
For some people thy always have been. And among those people, consoles used to provide a way for them to game without having their download speed or their cap be an issue. It makes sense for now those problems to come to a head.
If you said that 4 years ago, yeah.

The 1X isn't suddenly the mammoth of BW, this has been the same for years now.
 

Matt

Member
If you said that 4 years ago, yeah.

The 1X isn't suddenly the mammoth of BW, this has been the same for years now.
No, but its expanding a problem that some people are already struggling with. There is nothing wrong with people being unhappy with the situation, and expressing themselves.

Frankly right now I don't really expect additional "4K assets" to be that widely employed on the X, but I still understand the concern.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
For some people thy always have been. And among those people, consoles used to provide a way for them to game without having their download speed or their cap be an issue. It makes sense for now those problems to come to a head.

That would have held more water pre 2013 but it's part and parcel of console ownership now. Pretty much every time I turn mine on it's time to update one thing or another. Then there are those free games with gold every month, some of those have been huge

I'm still amazed that there is capped broadband in the US though. I just a quick search on a compare website and there is no capped broadband in the UK on offer.
 

Colbert

Banned
If somebody has an issue with the extra downloads of the higher quality assets then just don't buy a Xbox One X. Because no publisher will release a 2nd disc for those assets just for the minority of the install base for new releases or already released games.

Btw I don't see it changing for the mid-term future unless they change to another medium to physical distribute games like for example SD cards, which will be more expensive to produce then BluRay disks I assume.
Which would perfectly lead into another round of moaning imo.

I'm still amazed that there is capped broadband in the US though. I just a quick search on a compare website and there is no capped broadband in the UK on offer.

The ISPs I know in Germany have no caps too if we talk about non-mobile internet connections.
 

Matt

Member
That would have held more water pre 2013 but it's part and parcel of console ownership now. Pretty much every time I turn mine on it's time to update one thing or another. Then there are those free games with gold every month, some of those have been huge

I'm still amazed that there is capped broadband in the US though. I just a quick search on a compare website and there is no capped broadband in the UK on offer.
It "holds water" as long as it's a problem people still have to deal with, and in fact is expanding.

I don't know why anyone should try to minimize these issues. People have every right to complain about their hardships in this regard. They aren't doing anything wrong.
 

Colbert

Banned
Even my mobile connection is not capped and with 1500 minutes and unlimited texts I only pay £19 a month

In Germany we have data caps on mobile internet in the sense that the speed is throttled down to GPRS if you have reached your limit. Thats how the telecommunication companies makes their money here. For example my mobile data cap is just 3GB. For only 1GB more I would have to pay another 10€/month. It sucks but on the other hand my wired internet connection is just 30€/month with 100mbps down/30mbps up + phone flat rate in all networks and no data caps (thats cheap here if you have better rates).
 

Trup1aya

Member
It "holds water" as long as it's a problem people still have to deal with, and in fact is expanding.

I don't know why anyone should try to minimize these issues. People have every right to complain about their hardships in this regard. They aren't doing anything wrong.

Yeah, terrible anti-consumer ISP business practices are rampant in countries where the government allows it.

But that's not MS' or the publishers fault and I'm not sure the solution is neccisarily to bandaid the problem offering 2nd discs that only a tiny fraction of customers would ever use.

The continued rise of digitial distribution SHOULD be pressuring legislatures to get off their asses and fix this issue and actually enable and require competition among ISPs. No hope in America with the current administration though.

The only way two discs would make sense is if the second disc was included only in limited editions- a defacto luxury tax for xb1x owners who want everything physical.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
It "holds water" as long as it's a problem people still have to deal with, and in fact is expanding.

I don't know why anyone should try to minimize these issues. People have every right to complain about their hardships in this regard. They aren't doing anything wrong.

No one is minimizing the issue, I'm saying it's not something that is suddenly going to appear with the 1X, it's been happening for the last 4 years.


And what he said^^^
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
It "holds water" as long as it's a problem people still have to deal with, and in fact is expanding.

I don't know why anyone should try to minimize these issues. People have every right to complain about their hardships in this regard. They aren't doing anything wrong.

If I get a fast new car and the roads in my neighborhood are all bumpy and old, so I can't even drive the car as fast as I should - should I blame the car manufacturer or the city that provides the roads?
 

Matt

Member
Yeah, terrible anti-consumer ISP business practices are rampant in countries where the government allows it.

But that's not MS' or the publishers fault and I'm not sure the solution is neccisarily to bandaid the problem offering 2nd discs that only a tiny fraction of customers would ever use.

The continued rise of digitial distribution SHOULD be pressuring legislatures to get off their asses and fix this issue and actually enable and require competition among ISPs. No hope in America with the current administration though.

The only way two discs would make sense is if the second disc was included only in limited editions- a defacto luxury tax for xb1x owners who want everything physical.
MS isn't going to do anything about this, and neither are the other publishers. Any solutions on their end would cost money that they don't feel is an acceptable use of resources. And that's a perfectly reasonable opinion. But no consumer is obligated to be happy about that, or even satisfied.

And to be fair, some of the bloat is, in fact, MS's, Sony's, and all the other publishers' "fault." Most games could be smaller (sometimes drastically smaller), not by cutting anything, but by caring more about size optimization and better compression use. Right now, they feel no real need to put this effort in, and frankly they are right to feel that way. There hasn't been any meaningful pushback from their consumers, and there probably won't be.

Again everyone, if you want change, vote with your wallets.
 

Matt

Member
If I get a fast new car and the roads in my neighborhood are all bumpy and old, so I can't even drive the car as fast as I should - should I blame the car manufacturer or the city that provides the roads?
I didn't say anything about blame in that post.
 

Ushay

Member
Holy shit, this is supposed to be a good thing for One S owners. Instead we go on a tangent (yet again) and complain about bandwidth caps with ISPs.

4k textures are large files, PC owners have dealt with this for many, many years now. IMO, ISPs need to sort out their networks, having data caps are a joke in 2017 and unfair on their subscribers. Placing the onus on the platform owners will only go so far, so they put the 4k textures on the disc, what about updates? DLC? Patches?
 

Trup1aya

Member
MS isn't going to do anything about this, and neither are the other publishers. Any solutions on their end would cost money that they don't feel is an acceptable use of resources. And that's a perfectly reasonable opinion. But no consumer is obligated to be happy about that, or even satisfied.

And to be fair, some of the bloat is, in fact, MS's, Sony's, and all the other publishers' "fault." Most games could be smaller (sometimes drastically smaller), not by cutting anything, but by caring more about size optimization and better compression use. Right now, they feel no real need to put this effort in, and frankly they are right to feel that way. There hasn't been any meaningful pushback from their consumers, and there probably won't be.

Again everyone, if you want change, vote with your wallets.

We can talk about bloat and compression issues in standard releases, but no amount of compression is going to circumvent the need for some sort of secondary download/disc for content to that takes advantage of 4K. That's what we are talking about here, and that isn't the fault of MS or Publishers

(Unless we want to blame MS for not supporting larger Blu-Rays back in 2013)

So how exactly does one vote with their wallet here? We want the HQ assets. We can't choose our ISPs. Not buying the content we want won't push ISPs to give us better services.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
We can talk about bloat and compression issues in standard releases, but no amount of compression is going to circumvent the need for some sort of secondary download/disc for content to that takes advantage of 4K. That's what we are talking about here, and that isn't the fault of MS or Publishers

(Unless we want to blame MS for not supporting larger Blu-Rays back in 2013)

So how exactly does one vote with their wallet here? We want the HQ assets. We can't choose our ISPs. Not buying the content we want won't push ISPs to give us better services.

Don't you have any monopolies commission or anything over there to prevent shit like this?
 

Trup1aya

Member
Don't you have any monopolies commission or anything over there to prevent shit like this?

It's crazy man, they prevent monopolies in many industries, but when it comes to comms- the monopolies themselves are law...

Edit: For example, I know of one municipality that tried to setup a public broadband network because Telcos refused to serve the area, and telcos won a law suit that killed initiative- EVEN THOUGH THEY DONT OPERATE THERE.

It's bananas!
 

Matt

Member
We can talk about bloat and compression issues in standard releases, but no amount of compression is going to circumvent the need for some sort of secondary download/disc for content to that takes advantage of 4K. That's what we are talking about here, and that isn't the fault of MS or Publishers

(Unless we want to blame MS for not supporting larger Blu-Rays back in 2013)

So how exactly does one vote with their wallet here? We want the HQ assets. We can't choose our ISPs. Not buying the content we want won't push ISPs to give us better services.
That's not strictly speaking true. Depends on lots of factors. And again, it's an academic question largely, at least until it's shown "HD assets " are a common thing.

But even if it were true, if a consumer wants "4k assets" on a second disk, not buying a title you would have otherwise is a perfectly reasonable way of making your voice on this issue heard, as is posting about it on GAF.

Is it going to make a difference? Almost certainly no, but again, noone is doing something wrong expressing themselves in those ways.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
It's crazy man, they prevent monopolies in many industries, but when it comes to comms- the monopolies themselves are law...

Edit: For example, I know of one municipality that tried to setup a public broadband network because Telcos refused to serve the area, and telcos won a law suit that killed initiative- EVEN THOUGH THEY DONT OPERATE THERE.

It's bananas!

Jesus Christ, that is unbelievable.
 

c0de

Member
And to be fair, some of the bloat is, in fact, MS's, Sony's, and all the other publishers' "fault." Most games could be smaller (sometimes drastically smaller), not by cutting anything, but by caring more about size optimization and better compression use. Right now, they feel no real need to put this effort in, and frankly they are right to feel that way. There hasn't been any meaningful pushback from their consumers, and there probably won't be.
[...]

This part is really confusing me, to be honest. I mean, gamezone will potentially cry now but this is really making me wondering as patches, at least on 360, were suprisingly small.
I don't think Sony and MS should mandate small patches, especially as they don't seem to care aswell, and sure, compression is also not free but the storage requirements for dev machines are also way higher when you don't optimize for size.
Adding to that, there is of course also a certain trade-off when it comes to compression - gamers would also moan when loading times would be increased by 2x just because the data to be extracted would be 10% lower.
 

Trup1aya

Member
That's not strictly speaking true. Depends on lots of factors. And again, it's an academic question largely, at least until it's shown "HD assets " are a common thing.

But even if it were true, if a consumer wants "4k assets" on a second disk, not buying a title you would have otherwise is a perfectly reasonable way of making your voice on this issue heard, as is posting about it on GAF.

Is it going to make a difference? Almost certainly no, but again, noone is doing something wrong expressing themselves in those ways.

We know how large HQ asset packs are on PC. AAA games would inevitably be larger than 50Gigs.

When voting with the wallet, one has to be careful with the message actually being sent.

So i the consumer, who enjoys playing Forza, am suddenly going to skip out on Forza altogether because in an attempt to improve Forza visuals for a niche audience, the publisher will require that niche audience to download the improved assets. Literally punishing a good deed.

The message would be not that a second disc should be included, but that enabling for 4K for some user has devalued the offering altogether, which I'm sure isn't a sentiment that gamers actually feel.

Beyond that, you'd be hard pressed to find a tech company that hasn't spent tons lobbying for better net laws. No sense in punishing them content providers, when ISPs are the actual problem.
 

Matt

Member
We know how large HQ asset packs are on PC. AAA games would inevitably be larger than 50Gigs.

When voting with the wallet, one has to be careful with the message actually being sent.

So i the consumer, who enjoys playing Forza, am suddenly going to skip out on Forza altogether because in an attempt to improve Forza visuals for a niche audience, the publisher will require that niche audience to download the improved assets. Literally punishing a good deed.

The message would be not that a second disc should be included, but that enabling for 4K for some user has devalued the offering altogether, which I'm sure isn't a sentiment that gamers actually feel.
In no way is MS improving Forza's visuals a "good deed." It's not done out of the goodness of their hearts.

And that's why posting about why you might not be getting the game on GAF is good as well. You can make the reason for your choice very clear.
 

Trup1aya

Member
In no way is MS improving Forza's visuals a "good deed." It's not done out of the goodness of their hearts.

And that's why posting about why you might not be getting the game on GAF is good as well. You can make the reason for your choice very clear.

Think about what you are saying.

Forza has been selling just fine w/o console owners being able to see 4K visuals. So why should MS providing the option for 4K visuals result in fewer sales of the game? They are in no way worsening the offering, so why should someone who would have bought it w/o 4K instead skip in altogether instead of just playing in with the assets they have been.

By "good" I don't mean "kind". I mean positive. The option to consume 4K content is a postitive addition to the offering.
 

Matt

Member
Think about what you are saying.

Forza has been selling just fine w/o console owners being able to see 4K visuals. So why should MS providing the option for 4K visuals result in fewer sales of the game? They are in no way worsening the offering, so why should someone who would have bought it w/o 4K instead skip in altogether instead of just playing in 1080p like they have been.

By "good" I don't mean "kind". I mean positive. The option to consume 4K content is a postitive addition to the offering.
I am thinking about it, and no one owes any purchase to any manufacturer of goods. If someone doesn't want to buy a game because of it's size, they have every right to make that choice, and every right to express (or not express) why.
 

Vashetti

Banned
So what's going to be the best external HD for the BoneX? Cause that's a lot of textures that need ample space.

Also, if a game previously ran at like 900 p is it still going to run at 900p or will it bump to 1080p for the BoneX?

Depends if the game has dynamic resolution or not.

Battlefront will still be at 720p for example, unless it gets patched.
 

Trup1aya

Member
I am thinking about it, and no one owes any purchase to any manufacturer of goods. If someone doesn't want to buy a game because of it's size, they have every right to make that choice, and every right to express (or not express) why.

People have the right to do what they want. But boycotting a game because the developer provided an option to make it better doesn't send the message you suggest.

The game is optionally big. The Boycott would tell them they were better off not providing the option.
 

Matt

Member
People have the right to do what they want. But boycotting a game because the developer provided an option to make it better doesn't send the message you suggest.

The game is optionally big. The Boycott would tell them they were better off not providing the option.
You are assuming you will have an option to not acquire the "4k assets."
 

Fredrik

Member
I don't understand the discussion here. Sony got a ton of bashing for not doing enough with the Pro versions with 4K assets and supersampling etc and now we're supposed to vote with our wallets against this when MS tries to push 4K content and supersampling to X owners??

This is great for X owners no matter if you have a 4K TV or 1080p TV. And this is great for S owners since they won't have to download stuff that their system can't handle anyway.

I'll vote with my wallet and preorder a X as soon as I can. Forza 7 is already preordered.
 

Matt

Member
I don't understand the discussion here. Sony got a ton of bashing for not doing enough with the Pro versions with 4K assets and supersampling etc and now we're supposed to vote with our wallets against this when MS tries to push 4K content and supersampling to X owners??

This is great for X owners no matter if you gave a 4K TV or 1080p TV. And this is great for S owners since they have to download stuff that their system can't handle anyway.

I'll vote with my wallet and preorder a X as soon as I can. Forza 7 is already preordered.
You seem to be misunderstanding things here. I am not advocating anyone avoid Forza. I am simply saying if someone is unhappy with the amount of data our games need to download now, not buying games that have such an immense requirement is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
 

gamz

Member
You seem to be misunderstanding things here. I am not advocating anyone avoid Forza. I am simply saying if someone is unhappy with the amount of data our games need to download now, not buying games that have such an immense requirement is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Then you might not want to get a modern console or PC for gaming. Files sizes are what they are. Dunno?
 

Matt

Member
Then you might not want to get a modern console or PC for gaming. Files sizes are what they are. Dunno?
You might not. And that's a reasonable decision too.

But like I said, modern games aren't their size by magic. They could usually be smaller without losing content. But there is currently no real reason for publishers to worry about that.

For me personally, it doesn't really matter at all. I won't base my buying decisions on file sizes. My internet is great and uncapped. But that's my situation.
 

Fredrik

Member
You seem to be misunderstanding things here. I am not advocating anyone avoid Forza. I am simply saying if someone is unhappy with the amount of data our games need to download now, not buying games that have such an immense requirement is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
I get what you're saying and as I said earlier those who have genuine problems with this can't use modern consoles anyway since patches, updates, streaming, online gaming etc etc isn't something new. They've been living out in the cold for two generations now. Unfortunately it's not going to get better for these people, internet requirement won't go away and the data downloads won't become smaller. I believe Nintendo tried to put some restrictions on patch sizes and the devs just got pissed instead. This is the future no matter what we think about it,
I'll recommend that you put your vote at your countries internet infrastructure instead where it should be.
 

Matt

Member
I get what you're saying and as I said earlier those who have genuine problems with this can't use modern consoles anyway since patches, updates, streaming, online gaming etc etc isn't something new. They've been living out in the cold for two generations now. Unfortunately it's not going to get better for these people, internet requirement won't go away and the data downloads won't become smaller. I believe Nintendo tried to put some restrictions on patch sizes and the devs just got pissed instead. This is the future no matter what we think about it,
I'll recommend that you put your vote at your countries internet infrastructure instead where it should be.
I think for most people with these issues it's not a binary situation. Better file size management on the publishers' parts would go a long way to help them with their issues.
 

gamz

Member
Then they also lose out on the other benefits the X brings.

But sure, not buying the X over this is a form of protest as well.

Always a option, but where do you stop? Streaming 4K movies and TV shows are a hog. What I do wish is cable companies offer you more choices for the cap. I'd pay more to cap me at 1.5TB instead of a measly TB.
 

Fredrik

Member
I think for most people with these issues it's not a binary situation. Better file size management on the publishers' parts would go a long way to help them with their issues.
It's makes no difference, I've been in that situation before we moved to the current house, you can barely do anything at all with crappy internet, even a "small" patch is simply too much. It's awful and I truly feel sorry for those in that position. But complaining at MS at this point will make zero difference, it's just more negative noise about something that in every other way is absolutely awesome. Patches and big file sizes are unfortunately here to stay. Lets just celebrate that X owners actually get 4K assets and S owners don't have to download them instead.
 

Trup1aya

Member
You are assuming you will have an option to not acquire the "4k assets."

I'm not assuming anything. This thread is about options being provided.

If the download size of 4K assets is a big deal, then the message would be to not play that version of the game.

Buying an xb1x, but boycotting games that have HQ assets is a silly way to send any kind of message, especially since you'd imagine that xb1x owners would want all games to have HQ assets.

Better file size management it a must (it's a problem on standard games like H5 and Gears4), but it's not going to change the fact that HQ assets need to be distributed for 4K games, and those files will generally be too big to fit on one disc.
 

Gamezone

Gold Member
Holy shit, this is supposed to be a good thing for One S owners. Instead we go on a tangent (yet again) and complain about bandwidth caps with ISPs.

4k textures are large files, PC owners have dealt with this for many, many years now. IMO, ISPs need to sort out their networks, having data caps are a joke in 2017 and unfair on their subscribers. Placing the onus on the platform owners will only go so far, so they put the 4k textures on the disc, what about updates? DLC? Patches?

It's kinda obvious for PC gamers to deal with huge downloads. When physical media is offered, it's also expected not having to deal with huge dowbloads for the base game.
 

Colbert

Banned
I just don't understand the last 2 pages of discussion, really.

My opinion:

If somebody don't like that Xbox One X enhanced games will come with an extra (huge) download of high quality assets (we should stop to call them 4K assets) to make the game look much better in 4K or 1080p by downsampling than just don't consider to buy the console in the first place.

It is as simple as this.
 
If somebody has an issue with the extra downloads of the higher quality assets then just don't buy a Xbox One X.

I just don't understand the last 2 pages of discussion, really.

My opinion:

If somebody don't like that Xbox One X enhanced games will come with an extra (huge) download of high quality assets (we should stop to call them 4K assets) to make the game look much better in 4K or 1080p by downsampling than just don't consider to buy the console in the first place.

It is as simple as this.

Yeah, that makes total sense for anyone outside ... oh wait, no it doesn't. The Data Caps in America could really hurt adoption of this, especially for people with multiple Netflix, PC, and console users. 100gb for assets for one game is 10% of the average data cap here. Sorry you want it to be so black and white, but it's not and you just sound like a dick. This is the same as "You don't want to connect your console to the internet? Buy an Xbox 360". It's pointless, it doesn't add to the discussion at all. What are you trying to prove here? That you don't understand the problem? Because that's kind of obvious.
 
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