AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Fucking cynical people in here. Let's just give up on the world already.
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This Black Musician Explains Why He is Friends With White Supremacists
- Thread starter lightskintwin
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The Awesomest
Member
What about repentant bigots?
crisdecuba
Member
On what basis do you reduce the man's efforts to "hanging out with the oppressor?"
I'm fully aware of what the KKK is. And none of the people alive in that organization today were alive when it was formed, so none of that actually matters. Your logic is the same bullshit that tells us to fear anyone wearing a hijab because they might bomb us, it's the grossest kind of irony that you think it's fine to not try and fix problems and to unrepentently hate another individual that you don't know at all, based purely on affiliations (religious, racial, organizational, whatever) without knowing a single thing about their individual actions or motivations in life.
Show me the guy that bombed a church with 4 kids in it, BY ALL MEANS go shoot him in the head in the street, I couldn't give less of a fuck, but for every 1 of those there are 100 little kids that grew up in an environment that didn't know any better, not unlike little kids growing up in projects and having to work corners or whatever else. You don't solve problems by burying your head in the sand and dehumanizing everyone from 'the other side' - that's how you start wars.
Not having time for racist is not cynicism, as black people in America we have more pressing concerns than the fragility of some idiots in bedsheets
Banana Aeon
Member
I don't see the appeal in trying to save the forlorn. If these fucks want to don white hoods, and rage hate, fuck em. I don't have the time nor patience to try to teach some ignorant fuckwit not to hate people because they look different than you.
Already have! World hasn't given me shit.
Maybe when people stop ignoring the grave injustices on minorities, women, and LGBT, maybe I'll start having some hope.
Already have! World hasn't given me shit.
Maybe when people stop ignoring the grave injustices on minorities, women, and LGBT, maybe I'll start having some hope.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This is an extremely intellectually bereft argument. Like, impressively so.
You are doing credit to the KKK they don't deserve their only reason for existing is to inflict pain on minorities. What other organizations in the world do that? And considered are considered valid
Do you have something to say about it? Or are you just going to fling vocabulary at me and expect it to mean something in and of itself?
I don't give a fuck about the organization, it's made up of PEOPLE. Saying "Oh those people don't deserve consideration or talking to or an attempt to communicate" is literally the same thing racist fucks do to black people and other minorities. EXACTLY the same thing. What do you hope to accomplish by that? I don't give a rats ass if you personally ever talk to one, but to spew hatred at someone else for doing it is fucking laughable man.
stufte
Member
Zebra doesn't change it spots, the same hate that keeps it going , same hate that killed these little girls
and still claiming lives
I didn't know that Dylan Roof was a member of the KKK.
Banana Aeon
Member
I would ask you to rethink your argument, but I'm sure you don't care.
I care, but so far the 3 people quoting me have just said passive aggressively insulting things in response instead of actual discourse. Bring some and I'll have a discussion again.
TheSpoiler
Member
A lot of people here understand that the guy is doing good work, but it's not necessarily the best way to combat racism. Having to sit down and explain why racism is a bad thing to someone when you are being oppressed is silly, and the onus should not be on minorities to do so. Many people on GAF have said we are willing to have the discussion, but racists have to show up to the table first.
This isn't his intention in the least, because I'm pretty sure the guy understands this methodology doesn't work as a whole nor will it work perfectly every time (it's just his personal way of doing things), but it's very easy for someone to flip this and say "SEE, WHY DONT YOU BLACKS JUST TALK TO THEM".
White Supremacist Lives Matter huh?
These people choose to belong to a organization that exists to harm minorities, as long as they willingly continued to associate themselves with that organization. Fuck them and they are not worth considering.
Where did i spew hatred at this man?
Banana Aeon
Member
You clearly don't because you equated being Muslim as the same of willfully joining the KKK.
If it's not ignorance, I can't imagine what it could be.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Triggered eh
Your argument makes no sense. You're trying to equate not wanting to spend time and endangering oneself befriending and trying to reform racists devoted enough to join an organization to being Islamaphobic. You're also downplaying the relevance of the KKK and white supremacist organizations in general just because they don't operate with the visual flair and flagrant disregard for law that they used to. Well no shit because now they're embedded in law enforcement itself, as you see in the video with the Baltimore police officer.
Enjoy they efforts of people like Davis all you want but don't try to bludgeon the rest of us with it, it's fucking insulting
Bounceounce
Member
You weren't born in the same environment with the same influences as them to lead them towards joining an organization such as this and neither was I.
It's no different to me than what leads black youth towards joining gangs.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
crisdecuba
Member
Nor is it something that most people would be able to do successfully. It takes a certain temperament and patience. It's partly why I find the man remarkable.
TheSpoiler
Member
At least here in Chicago, black gangs are formed by lack of education, gentrification, police brutality/mistrust, and lack of jobs, all stemming from racism. I'm sure poverty is a factor in racism, but no, the two aren't related at all.
To sit across from someone that hates your very being and try to understand them is truly remarkable indeed. I really hope the ones that changed actually do so.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
I wanna see his documentary
crisdecuba
Member
Man, why do you keep tryout no to equate things to make your argument. Pretty much all the comparisons that you say are no different actually ARE rather different. It messes up your argument completely.
If it is no different to you, then you are not that versed in gang culture. Watch Banging in little Rock to give you a beginning to understanding of what a gang can mean to a youth.
Just because someone can misunderstand a message doesn't mean it doesn't have a point.
It's 'on' both sides to be able to sit down and talk. If you can't do that, you can't expect the other to either. His point is that people that are so uneducated about a topic aren't going to seek to educate themselves, so it can help to reach out to them first. It's not your responsibility or job to do so, but it certainly doesn't hurt. What's the worst that happens? They ignore it. And you carry on. If you don't want to do it, someone like him will, and that's nothing but commendable.
It's easy to have a conversation about this stuff (as easy as conversations on race relations and bias can be anyway) with someone that is already 'on your side', but those aren't the people that need significant convincing. Antagonizing people on the other side only leads to more problems, just like with anything else in life. It takes both sides to come to the table to have a discussion, and it's hypocritical to say "Well, they should be the ones to do it first" if you're not willing to extend an olive branch even when they haven't. If you care about actually fixing problems, sometimes you have to suck it up and do something you don't want to, is my point. If your response to that is "No, THEY should suck it up" then you don't actually care about fixing it in the first place, just about staying mad.
Like, nobody is denying that this is a terrible organization founded by pretty terrible people that have done some terrible fucking things, but it's also an organization comprised today of virtually entirely folks that grew up and were raised in an atmosphere that wouldn't have them question the logic of this shit in the first place. In many ways, people that can't see that have the same sort of situation: If you're raised to fear white people or police or whatever else, you don't question that the KKK is truly evil. They think the same of you. The truth is, those THOUGHTS about the others ide are the problem, not the people, certainly not the majority of the people anyway. I don't know about you, but when I see a little kid in a fucking white hood, my first reaction isn't "Oh, fuck that kid I hope he dies" just like when I see a kid holding a gun in the projects I don't think "Fuck that kid I hope he dies" - no, I hope that we can change the fucking situation so that doesn't have to happen. But you can't do that without addressing actual hard issues like adults.
And what do you think the community and family environment of a white youth means to them? You can't be so dense as to truly think that black kids in gang environments are just trying to get by and being influenced by their surroundings, but white kids in hicksville USA in the south are totally fine and absolutely understand their biases and everything else.
It's all the same shit - environments that foster fucked up situations.
Bounceounce
Member
Ignorance, tribalism, environments, and specific societal influences that plague their group and not others.
I mean have you seen videos of the modern KKK in these southern areas?
It's incredibly broken down and pathetic.
These are people that could change.
It sounds like Daryl thinks about this sort of thing in a way similar to me. I get a lot of shit on GAF for it too. Don't think I've been called a coon for it yet though.
I don't think this is the expectation - no more than I think it's expected that someone builds houses for the poor, or reaches out to the disadvantaged, or works to rehabilitate criminals - but I'm glad there are people out there who want to do it. It's the sort of beautiful 'Christ like' idealization that I think everyone begrudgingly respects. A desire to make the would better and to see the good in even the most deplorable.
I don't think this is the expectation - no more than I think it's expected that someone builds houses for the poor, or reaches out to the disadvantaged, or works to rehabilitate criminals - but I'm glad there are people out there who want to do it. It's the sort of beautiful 'Christ like' idealization that I think everyone begrudgingly respects. A desire to make the would better and to see the good in even the most deplorable.
stufte
Member
I think he's just trying to say that people are a product of their environment to a large extent and that bad environments can produce negative results, be it ignorant racism or gang affiliation. He's not comparing the KKK with black gang members.
This.
Surely you understand why minorities get tired of defending their existence to "conversations" that ultimately is just for the oppressor to feel better
crisdecuba
Member
100%!
Do you really think it's just for "The Oppressor" to feel better? You keep referring to a group of people as that, because you can't fucking stand to believe that someone other than you can be human. It's LITERALLY the same disgusting attitude that lead to the situation here in the first place.
If you don't think the end result of "Maybe we won't be so oppressed" is for your own benefit, then you're not remotely interested in achieving that goal in the first place.
EDIT: And what I mean by that is: You're right, you shouldn't HAVE to do anything not to be oppressed, but you are, clearly, oppressed. So when you say you'd rather just pretend that someone from the other side isn't a person so that you can avoid the difficult task of working towards a better future, than maybe suck it up and consider the possibility of healing, that's why I say you don't give a damn about the situation improving. If not for you, then for your kids or your grandkids.
To take it back from race for a minute, this happens literally all the time in real life. If I get in a fight with my girlfriend and I'm right and she's wrong, but I recognize that maybe I should just say I'm sorry anyway, that's the much less inflammatory example of the same thing. I can stick to the fact that I'm right, or I can recognize that what we both want is to get past it and that taking the way out that hurts my pride is still going to work better. She could do it too - it didn't have to be me to apologize, but I do because I know her well enough to expect her not to. Just like the Clansmen you're talking about are PROBABLY not going to, but are possibly going to be receptive if you do.
Bounceounce
Member
A family outside of a family, protection, etc.
I've watched documentaries on gang culture, I know why my sister joined a gang, I've read plenty of books on or related to gangs(most recently a book by Father Greg Boyle on Homeboy Industries).
I'm not saying they're the same in that they're THE same.
I'm saying that some (not all, could be a very small amount) of the mental processes and kick off points are similar, and that it's also similar in that just because people have gone down this path doesn't mean they should be discarded.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Are you really defending "today's" KKK? Are you kidding me? Yes, the individual can and should be rehabilitated, don't get it twisted. But while in that group they deserve all the condemnation they get.
excelsiorlef
Member
Yep
And there it is
Secret Fawful
Member
Your point is the worst kind of false equivalence argument. The environment of the oppressor is not equivalent to the environment of the oppressed, period. It is on white supremacists to change, it is not on others to change them.
MHWilliams
Member
None of this.
I understand tensions are high, but do better. This is everyone's warning.
I think some of what you're saying is very agreeable to me - however I don't think you're really considering the comparisons you're making. The sort of 'both sides' language you are employing is doubling down on the 'you have the kkk in one corner, and you have the gangsters in the other! Both sides!' perception that comes out of a lot of these discussions.
It sounds like the core of your message is, it's commendable to sit down with the damnable and try to have them see the err of their ways, and that's where I really agree with you. However, I think comparing the plight of inner city black youth and the challenges and struggles they face, and yes the negatives and the violence placed on their shoulders by their environments to the plight of children of racists is not a productive comparison, to say the least.
I agree that people who scoff, shake their head at, or even speak ill of this man are disagreeable - but I think with you admiring this man, and with me admiring this man, maybe we can ask ourselves how he'd talk to people who he felt were being disagreeable? Basically... I like a lot of what you're saying, but I don't think I like a lot of how you're saying it.
I guess you can say things any way you want, and you have that right absolutely, and maybe I'm wrong with my characterization of your posts, but I really think that you have an opportunity to win more hearts and minds if you are more considerate about how you say what you say.
Or maybe I'm just tone policing or something. I just hope that my sincerity comes through.
stufte
Member
How do you think that happens exactly if not through some sort of education or dialogue? People don't just suddenly stop being racist.
It's not the same fucking attitude, because one "side" hate us and kill us for no reason, and we want it to stop. It's not on us to prove ourselves that we're okay to the KKK. They can just not fucking hate us.
So me not wanting to entertain racism is the same as racism? What kind of nonsense is that. IF you belong to a racism organization, don't be shocked when folks call you racist and don't want to be around you.
If their feelings are hurt, sorry not sorry. There is a lot of people wish they were alive to have feelings, but the KKK killed them.
I'm surprised these Klansmen don't get in trouble for for giving their sheets to a black guy.
Not the first time I've heard of the "he's one of the good ones" mentality though. It's some serious mental gymnastics. "Black people are evil but sometimes there's good ones. White people are superior but I hate a lot of them." It's almost like someone race doesn't determine what kind of person they are. Huh.
Not the first time I've heard of the "he's one of the good ones" mentality though. It's some serious mental gymnastics. "Black people are evil but sometimes there's good ones. White people are superior but I hate a lot of them." It's almost like someone race doesn't determine what kind of person they are. Huh.
False equivalence. You're not thinking this through adequately.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
What I don't understand is why so many people who are generally apathetic about racism in general get indignant when we say we'd rather not spend time and energy sitting down trying to befriend racists
I agree with everything you said, the best way to curb ignorance is with education. However, I don't think its fair to expect black people to befriend racists and try to change them. That's a huge undertaking that most people would find incredibly difficult to do.
stufte
Member
Hey you do you. I don't fault anyone for not wanting to talk to someone that hates them for their very existence. But I do find it sad that people in this thread are shaming him for trying to do some good in an admittedly unorthodox way.
Bounceounce
Member
Is there anything in this great that posts to that?
How do you know that the people like me who are agreeing with this guy have been apathetic about racism?
And if it's not pointed at us why say it in the first place?
No, you're right, I'm very gruff in how I speak because I don't always get my points accross well. I'm not actually saying those two things are literally the same, I'm just saying your environment shapes you as a person, and it's easier to change someone's environment/worldview than it is to expect them to find inner change from the same situation. If someone lived in racism their entire life and continues to do so, I don't expect them to alter their perception of black people one iota, but if they can meet someone and go 'oh...maybe my views are wrong' - and that takes time and patience - then it's far more likely to yield results.
Similarly, when it comes to gang culture, Idon't think expecting people to just get tired of the struggle and pull themselves up by their bootstraps is realistic, we need to actually change how our economy, our subtle and not so subtle racist laws and income divides and everything else work, education, etc. It's not expecting gang bangers to change, it's changing the environment so that those kids can see a light that doesn't involve that path.
Heck, it doesn't even have to be gang bangers, that's an extreme, your average black youth and your average white youth surely have relatively similar experiences, except for then you've got the things like the cops, wages, more likely jailed relatives due to the racism inherant in the system, etc, that all subtly affect us in different ways. This might lead to the black kid having to go to work at 16 and maybe getting a low end associates degree while the white kid has a bit more priviledge and goes to a state university or whatever, fast forward 10 years and now the white kid is making twice as much money and is in a different state than the black kid and their SLIGHTLY different environments have yielded fucked up results. Those are the real problems we need to solve in this country and world. And it's HARD. If it were easy it would be done.
The discussion that started this thread is a microcosm of that, on one extreme of the spectrum of race. To affect the whole, we've got to affect every aspect in both subtle and blunt ways, and it's going to be a challenge to do so from all sides. I equate the attitude that they're not human over there, to sticking your fingers in your ears and not being willing to accept some hard truths about peopple, of all races, that would clearly better the situation given time. It's the exact same attitude that racists have used to put minorities down over the ages, and it only breeds more conflict instead of healing, so it really REALLY bothers me to see people push that here on Gaf where we generally have a pretty understanding community open to discussion.
Again, I'm not saying it's an expectation. It's commendable that someone is willing to do it. I'm saying people that are putting him down and acting as if the other side are inhuman are actively destructive to working this shit out over time. If you don't want to talk to them, by all means don't. I don't really want to do it either (I'm not black obviously though). But if you can't recognize the other side as people, you've lost before you've begun when it comes to peaceful integration of the country.
They CAN. but they're not. So you can just let them keep hating you, or this guy can do what he's doing. I mean, literally everyone in the world CAN just stop killing each other tomorrow, but it's never going to happen. The fact that you think there aren't reasons (I'm not saying they're good reasons, they're ABSOLUTELY terrible reasons) that they hate you is part of the issue - being unwilling to learn a single thing about another human being is what leads to them acting like this in the first place. I'm not saying you have to consider those opinions like "Hmm. maybe they're right" , like...they're not, obviously. But you can't change anybody's mind if you can't get at least talk to them. It will never happen without that step. What I'm saying is, if you want peace (the plural you, not you personally), someone has to be willing to do that, and to just loudly proclaim that they should not do it because you as an individual don't want to do it, is just impeding the process. I know it sucks to do something you shouldn't have to, probably a lot more in that siutation than any I've ever dealt with, but it's the results that are important when it comes to this.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I agree that what's he's doing has merit. But like I said earlier I'd also be interested in knowing what he's had to endure along the way. Maybe the documentaries go into greater detail about that.
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