Support NeoGAF

gofreak · Jan 25, 2012

Grecco said:
The hearts of people expecting PS4 to be some techno core beast and the next Microsoft machine to be a Wii.

Who wants that?

The best scenario is for both to be, if it raised the chances of a higher baseline that pubs target and leads to more ambitious games.

If two companies go high end, that's a good thing if you're interested in third parties taking more advantage of a bigger leap.

If two go relatively low end, it's a bad thing for the above.

(Assuming two high-ends can muster a market large enough for third parties to focus on it, of course)

DCKing · Jan 25, 2012

Hcoregamer00 said:
The final hardware for the XBOX 3/720/whatever will likely be more powerful than what is currently circulating at the moment.

This is true.

What is also true is that a chip like the HD6670 is an incredibly bad starting point. It's a decent amount less powerful than the chip used in the Wii U devkits. It's not a starting point that doesn't make sense: as pointed out this is the same component that has been used in AMD Fusion chips, which is an analog of a new Xbox SoC.

I have no doubts that is going to improve, and maybe dramatically so. But from this starting point on, there is no way that the next Xbox will be in a league of its own compared to the Wii U.

Green Embers · Jan 25, 2012

Lonely1 said:
A Microsoft rep e-mailed me the following statement: "As an innovator we're always thinking about what is next and how we can push the boundaries of technology like we did with Kinect. We believe the key to extending the lifespan of a console is not just about the console hardware, but about the games and entertainment experiences being delivered to consumers. Beyond that we don't comment on rumors or speculation."

Hmm. I'm thinking my OnLive type service theory is correct.... this would also fit the anti-piracy rumour as well as explain the name Infinite. With a service like that, you would never really need to upgrade your console again. /randommusing.

squidyj · Jan 25, 2012

AngelSoldier said:
You must have sweaty hands. I love the DualShock.

well it doesn't slide off and yes I have sweaty hands, but I like the cupped rubber feeling of the xbox controller for accurate controls. it's nice.

charsace · Jan 25, 2012

Doc Holliday said:
ding ding! This model is actually pretty low poly by todays standards. Art >>>> Tech. However a great artist with great tech is even better

BTW that model is 6,000k or so.

You're correct. That model is around 6000 polys.

-ImaginaryInsider · Jan 25, 2012

charsace said:
I notice people are saying they would just update the 6000 chipset. That just sounds like a waste of time and money to me. ATI has DX11.1 chipsets that handle power better than the 6000 series cards and its out already. Why waste money and time improving the 6000 chipset when they can take the 7000 chipset and spend time tuning that the way they want?

Because everyone in here is speculating on speculation, if people really thought about it, they'd probably realize that the 6670 is too conservative given the size and wattage...especially if it goes to 28nm. There is a lot of wishful thinking on both ends of the spectrum. I don't doubt the next Xbox will be more conservative, but like you pointed out, that doesn't automatically mean an ancient off the shelf gpu.

Its good to know were in the "Xbox 1.5" stage of the rumor cycle, means that actual info isn't too far off.

Daschysta · Jan 25, 2012

Hcoregamer00 said:
I don't mean to break anyone's hearts here, but I would like to point out that the rumors about the Wii U power is about near finalized development kits versus the XBOX 3 which still has a couple more iterations to go before reaching final development kits.

The final hardware for the XBOX 3/720/whatever will likely be more powerful than what is currently circulating at the moment.

Which is fine, i'm just relieved at the news of Wii-U at 5x current gen, which is far better than the 2x/3x that most expected.

It also indicates that MSFT is likely not going for bleeding edge. Even if it ends up 7x or 8x it won't be nearly a big enough gap to preclude the WIi-U from getting 3rd party ports, meaning that as the first system to come out the Wii-U has a chance to set the bar for next gen development.

Just as the PS3 and 360 were codeveloped for, leaving an outlier in the dust, the Wii-U and 720 may be the same baseline if Sony goes for radically more powerful hardware.

And HD nintendo system that also gets all the big 3rd party games (not to mention likely japanese exclusives) is pretty much my dream system, and these rumours make it much more likely to happen.

Hcoregamer00 · Jan 25, 2012

Daschysta said:
Which is fine, i'm just relieved at the news of Wii-U at 5x current gen, which is far better than the 2x/3x that most expected.

It also indicates that MSFT is likely not going for bleeding edge. Even if it ends up 7x or 8x it won't be nearly a big enough gap to preclude the WIi-U from getting 3rd party ports, meaning that as the first system to come out the Wii-U has a chance to set the bar for next gen development.

Just as the PS3 and 360 were codeveloped for, leaving an outlier in the dust, the Wii-U and 720 may be the same baseline if Sony goes for radically more powerful hardware.

And HD nintendo system that also gets all the big 3rd party games (not to mention likely japanese exclusives) is pretty much my dream system, and these rumours make it much more likely to happen.

The only reason why the Nintendo Wii didn't get mutiplatform ports is due to a completely different architecture that did not support games made with a programmable GPU in mind. By virtue of Nintendo releasing a console with a modern GPU architecture, sufficient RAM, and a comparable CPU there will not be the 3rd party issues they had last time.

Even if the console was woefully underpowered, it will still get many more games by virtue of using a modern GPU.

plagiarize · Jan 25, 2012

Hcoregamer00 said:
The only reason why the Nintendo Wii didn't get mutiplatform ports is due to a completely different architecture that did not support games made with a programmable GPU in mind. By virtue of Nintendo releasing a console with a modern GPU architecture, sufficient RAM, and a comparable CPU there will not be the 3rd party issues they had last time.

Even if the console was woefully underpowered, it will still get many more games by virtue of using a modern GPU.

yep. seems like this needs to be restated a lot. the Wii had obsolete architecture. Wii U and Xbox 3 are going to have very similar architecture.

DECK'ARD · Jan 25, 2012

gofreak said:
Who wants that?

The best scenario is for both to be, if it raised the chances of a higher baseline that pubs target and leads to more ambitious games.

If two companies go high end, that's a good thing if you're interested in third parties taking more advantage of a bigger leap.

If two go relatively low end, it's a bad thing for the above.

(Assuming two high-ends can muster a market large enough for third parties to focus on it, of course)

The only people who think it's a good thing have a deathwish for the industry.

5-6x in a closed box, at the point we have reached, is more than enough. And the results will be more than enough for anyone other than those who get a hardon for what is inside the box.

For every jump you think you are making with opening up more power, you are also killing risk taking.

iamshadowlark · Jan 25, 2012

The whole diminishing returns and "more power will kill the industry" schtick has gone beyond hyperbolic.

Plinko · Jan 25, 2012

iamshadowlark said:
The whole diminishing returns and "more power will kill the industry" schtick has gone beyond hyperbolic.

More power isn't going to kill the industry. Releasing an superpowered system that is $600 again may.

As for the diminishing returns part, you'd be shocked at how many people can't tell the difference between SD and HD let alone the difference between 360/PS3 and the best looking PC stuff out there right now. That's the thing that convinced me we're hitting the diminishing returns point faster than I previously thought.

squidyj · Jan 25, 2012

DECK'ARD said:
The only people who think it's a good thing have a deathwish for the industry.

5-6x in a closed box, at the point we have reached, is more than enough. And the results will be more than enough for anyone other than those who get a hardon for what is inside the box.

For every jump you think you are making with opening up more power, you are also killing risk taking.

Basically you are wrong, you are using melodramatic language to villify your opposition and you are failing to react to criticism of your position within this thread. 5-6x is not enough, it's not nearly enough and an attitude that celebrates such mediocrity is well daft. It won't kill risk taking, it won't be a deathwish for the industry and many people in this thread have already demonstrated why it wont be the massive budgetary inflation for devs that would result in that risk killing you seem to believe is inevitable.

Plinko said:
More power isn't going to kill the industry. Releasing an superpowered system that is $600 again may.

As for the diminishing returns part, you'd be shocked at how many people can't tell the difference between SD and HD let alone the difference between 360/PS3 and the best looking PC stuff out there right now. That's the thing that convinced me we're hitting the diminishing returns point faster than I previously thought.

I would like for you to quote me a study on the number of people who can't tell the difference. In the immortal words of the internet, tits or GTFO, because I'm tired of hearing 'noone cares about graphics' 'graphics don't matter' 'nobody can tell the difference' without supporting evidence.

DECK'ARD · Jan 25, 2012

iamshadowlark said:
The whole diminishing returns and "more power will kill the industry" schtick has gone beyond hyperbolic.

It's more complicated than that.

You have a whole games industry that is in a complete mess. Confusion over retail vs. digital delivery, wholesale confusion over what a game is worth, ridiculously spiralling production costs which had cancelled out the widening of the market. The industry is basically competing with itself in multiple areas and sending conflicting messages. Another arms-race is exactly the wrong thing an industry in such a mess needs. It needs to consolidate.

The music and film industries had to be dragged into this century, but their position is much more straight-forward.

And the future of all the industries is basically in the same place, the battle is for the control of that and anyone who doesn't realise it will be caught out. Games are just a tool to get there, but far from the most important part of the sales pitch.

Plinko · Jan 25, 2012

squidyj said:
Basically you are wrong, you are using melodramatic language to villify your opposition and you are failing to react to criticism of your position within this thread. 5-6x is not enough, it's not nearly enough and an attitude that celebrates such mediocrity is well daft. It won't kill risk taking, it won't be a deathwish for the industry and many people in this thread have already demonstrated why it wont be the massive budgetary inflation for devs that would result in that risk killing you seem to believe is inevitable.

How do you know? The system that took the smallest leap dominated for years.

Also, you keep throwing around the "5-6X is not enough" but don't go into WHY. WHY won't it be enough?

Not good enough graphics for you? Not enough power to handle...what? I'm genuinely curious to hear your response.

ShockingAlberto · Jan 25, 2012

iamshadowlark said:
The whole diminishing returns and "more power will kill the industry" schtick has gone beyond hyperbolic.

More power doesn't kill the industry.

Higher ceilings will kill the industry.

Well, I guess it doesn't if you define the industry as first-party November titles, EA, and Activision.

Rad- · Jan 25, 2012

So if MS announces this at E3, is Sony basically forced to release a less powerful system as well? I'm sure they don't want to get "Wii'd" by third parties next gen.

Lunchbox · Jan 25, 2012

5 times 6 times 10 times is the most juvenile ignorant shit that only the video game industry can throw around

talk about specs or dont compare things at all

Plinko · Jan 25, 2012

squidyj said:
I would like for you to quote me a study on the number of people who can't tell the difference. In the immortal words of the internet, tits or GTFO, because I'm tired of hearing 'noone cares about graphics' 'graphics don't matter' 'nobody can tell the difference' without supporting evidence.

Yeah, because the scientific community is so busy right now with "studies" on people who can't tell the difference between SD and HD. Please. It's obvious I was talking about anecdotal evidence. I deal with teenagers on a regular basis and love to hear their thoughts on the video game industry--sort of a market research deal. It's a good-sized group of students who are a good mix of the game-buying population--a fair number of both "core" gamers and casuals.

thuway · Jan 25, 2012

Plinko said:
I think that's crazy if they want to release at a reasonable price, but we'll see.

Do you have any idea what your talking about? Put together a BOM list and play ball before making ludicrous statements like that.

Plinko · Jan 25, 2012

thuway said:
Do you have any idea what your talking about? Put together a BOM list and play ball before making ludicrous statements like that.

You do realize there is a more to console pricing than BOM, right?

dragonelite · Jan 25, 2012

Plinko said:
How do you know? The system that took the smallest leap dominated for years.

Also, you keep throwing around the "5-6X is not enough" but don't go into WHY. WHY won't it be enough?

Not good enough graphics for you? Not enough power to handle...what? I'm genuinely curious to hear your response.

I dont know maybe people standard get higher too.
Do you think people want 360 level of graphics when 4k tv are more available.
Its all a number game and bigger is better. Hell if a lot of people could get 1080p in 4 inch mobile screen, they want that and not the one with 640p or something like that.

Hell even the 360 is blurry as fuck on my 1080p screen because im already used to pc quality graphics if it was not for halo 4 and some other exclusives i would have sold my 360 and ps3 months ago.

Game-Biz · Jan 25, 2012

Lunchbox said:
5 times 6 times 10 times is the most juvenile ignorant shit that only the video game industry can throw around

talk about specs or dont compare things at all

Yep. Pretty much.

Plinko · Jan 25, 2012

dragonelite said:
I dont know maybe people standard get higher too.
Do you think people want 360 level of graphics when 4k tv are more available.
Its all a number game and bigger is better. Hell if a lot of people could get 1080p in 4 inch mobile screen, they want that and not the one with 640p or something like that.

Hell even the 360 is blurry as fuck on my 1080p screen because im already used to pc quality graphics if it was not for halo 4 and some other exclusives i would have sold my 360 and ps3 months ago.

That's an entirely different argument, as those TVs will be worse sellers than 3DTVs are because there's absolutely no reason to replace HDTVs due to the fact that there will be no OTA or Satellite programming to take advantage of it.

I think Sony's talk of 4K is ahead of its time.

snesfreak · Jan 25, 2012

4k?
We can barely get 1080p.
Reminds me of the Jim Mora "Playoffs!?" rant.

DECK'ARD · Jan 25, 2012

Lunchbox said:
5 times 6 times 10 times is the most juvenile ignorant shit that only the video game industry can throw around

talk about specs or dont compare things at all

All the industry needs is identifiable jumps, it doesn't matter whether you call it 8 bit vs. 16 bit, 5-6x, or start throwing MHz about.

It's a consumer product, the jump is what is important. And whatever Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony will put out will offer one. What is increasingly important is that the jump is just as much about what services, convenience, new experience and everything else it entails. Everything is converging.

The jump this time round is going to be about far more than what is inside the box, it's what they will be doing with it. Give enough room to advance, but not hinder it by pushing productions costs too far again. Then the focus will come back to differentiating through content again, keep the risks manageable so it doesn't get in the way of creativity.

guek · Jan 25, 2012

4k tvs? Damn, that 70 incher is going to be a bitch to fit in my living room.

Cerebral Assassin · Jan 25, 2012

dragonelite said:
I dont know maybe people standard get higher too.
Do you think people want 360 level of graphics when 4k tv are more available.
Its all a number game and bigger is better. Hell if a lot of people could get 1080p in 4 inch mobile screen, they want that and not the one with 640p or something like that.

You think 4K TV's will become standard over the 4-5 years?

dragonelite · Jan 25, 2012

Cerebral Assassin said:
You think 4K TV's will become standard over the 4-5 years?

innocently say yes

Marco1 · Jan 25, 2012

I can only imagine that the biggest problem for MS will be their heat issues and most likely wanting to launch a system similar in size to the 360S.
Also I hope they allow the use of SSD without charging their own system on it, oh wait!!!!!

Cerebral Assassin · Jan 25, 2012

dragonelite said:
innocently say yes

Personally I think it will be at least that long for 3DTV's to reach that level (if they even will), let alone 4K TV's.

fabricated backlash · Jan 25, 2012

Lunchbox said:
5 times 6 times 10 times is the most juvenile ignorant shit that only the video game industry can throw around

talk about specs or dont compare things at all

But people need some easy numbers to compare their future e-peen.

How else are you going to be able to pat yourself on the back knowing that you bought a console that is 10 times as powerfull as the old ones?
Do you expect people to actually look forward to games instead of horsepower that is sure to be paththic when compared to mid to high end PCs?

Duxxy3 · Jan 25, 2012

Cerebral Assassin said:
Personally I think it will be at least that long for 3DTV's to reach that level (if they even will), let alone 4K TV's.

I would say that 4k has a better chance than 3D to be accepted by the masses in that time span.

hullostranger · Jan 25, 2012

Could someone please explain why higher end tech would necessarily be a bad thing? I keep reading that OP hardware would force more studios out of the running due to rising costs.

The reason I ask is because I thought most costs come making sure your game looks great graphically. Aren't most graphics assets now down scaled to fit on to current generation consoles. So if the assets are all ready created in high fidelity why not use them going forward to the next generation and making sure the hardware is capable? Or am I going at this the wrong way?

Lynn616 · Jan 25, 2012

Duxxy3 said:
I would say that 4k has a better chance than 3D to be accepted by the masses in that time span.

Is there any 4k content for those TVs?

DECK'ARD · Jan 25, 2012

Duxxy3 said:
I would say that 4k has a better chance than 3D to be accepted by the masses in that time span.

Both will get there, if they do, just by being offered as a default option for new televisions.

4k is complete overkill for the size of televisions most people buy, although when we have OLED wall-sized televisions it will be more important

antonz · Jan 25, 2012

Outside of blu ray and a few exceptions there isnt even 1080P content. TV Standard is 720P. 4k is way way way off

KageMaru · Jan 25, 2012

thuway said:
Do you have any idea what your talking about? Put together a BOM list and play ball before making ludicrous statements like that.

No, Plinko is entirely right, people expecting 10x the power of the PS360 are going to be disappointed.

DECK'ARD · Jan 25, 2012

antonz said:
Outside of blu ray and a few exceptions there isnt even 1080P content. TV Standard is 720P. 4k is way way way off

Yeah, I doubt Sky are very eager to embrace this one!

AzaK · Jan 25, 2012

I guess the TV industry needed another buzz word to sell more stuff.

Seriously, how long is it going to be before we can fit 4k movies on a disk? Then how long before broadcast accepts 4K (Hint: I'll be dead)?

4K just seems madness and I can't see how the hell they can actually use 4K as a selling point with 0 content?

Cerebral Assassin · Jan 25, 2012

DECK'ARD said:
Both will get there, if they do, just by being offered as a default option for new televisions.

4k is complete overkill for the size of televisions most people buy, although when we have OLED wall-sized televisions it will be more important

After watching Black Mirror I don't think I want wall-sized TV's anymore. Either way though I think we will be lucky to be consistently at 1080P with the next gen, let alone anything higher.

Krauser Kat · Jan 25, 2012

squidyj said:
Basically you are wrong, you are using melodramatic language to villify your opposition and you are failing to react to criticism of your position within this thread. 5-6x is not enough, it's not nearly enough and an attitude that celebrates such mediocrity is well daft. It won't kill risk taking, it won't be a deathwish for the industry and many people in this thread have already demonstrated why it wont be the massive budgetary inflation for devs that would result in that risk killing you seem to believe is inevitable.

I would like for you to quote me a study on the number of people who can't tell the difference. In the immortal words of the internet, tits or GTFO, because I'm tired of hearing 'noone cares about graphics' 'graphics don't matter' 'nobody can tell the difference' without supporting evidence.

You are trying to form arguments out of your vocabulary range.

DECK'ARD said:
It's more complicated than that.

You have a whole games industry that is in a complete mess. Confusion over retail vs. digital delivery, wholesale confusion over what a game is worth, ridiculously spiralling production costs which had cancelled out the widening of the market. The industry is basically competing with itself in multiple areas and sending conflicting messages. Another arms-race is exactly the wrong thing an industry in such a mess needs. It needs to consolidate.

The music and film industries had to be dragged into this century, but their position is much more straight-forward.

And the future of all the industries is basically in the same place, the battle is for the control of that and anyone who doesn't realise it will be caught out. Games are just a tool to get there, but far from the most important part of the sales pitch.

Thanks, for all of that. Our industry is not mature enough to realize great games can not have all the bells and whistles and still sell well. Which is why the more power you give dev, the more money they have to spend. This next gen will not nearly be the exponential jump in cost the last was, but more power is going to use more money. I am aware the assests like texture and mudboxed million poly models are already used but a higher poly in game model, plus more animation to be blended with Ai and environments.

Duxxy3 · Jan 25, 2012

Lynn616 said:
Is there any 4k content for those TVs?

Very little. On the other hand people actively hate 3D.

Krauser Kat · Jan 25, 2012

AzaK said:
I guess the TV industry needed another buzz word to sell more stuff.

Seriously, how long is it going to be before we can fit 4k movies on a disk? Then how long before broadcast accepts 4K (Hint: I'll be dead)?

4K just seems madness and I can't see how the hell they can actually use 4K as a selling point with 0 content?

we can already fit 4k 24 on 128gb blu-ray disk which the ps3 might be able to read with a firmware update but hdmi cables cant pass that much information per second to do 4k without multiple cables.

tassletine · Jan 25, 2012

Cerebral Assassin said:
After watching Black Mirror I don't think I want wall-sized TV's anymore. Either way though I think we will be lucky to be consistently at 1080P with the next gen, let alone anything higher.

Black Mirror was brilliant.

Wall sized TV's will have to be flexible to work as they need to fit through doors.

DECK'ARD · Jan 25, 2012

Cerebral Assassin said:
After watching Black Mirror I don't think I want wall-sized TV's anymore. Either way though I think we will be lucky to be consistently at 1080P with the next gen, let alone anything higher.

Just mentioning that episode of Black Mirror has made me depressed again

beje · Jan 25, 2012

I doubt 4K would ever become standard anytime soon after seeing how people got fucked in the ass by HD-ready TVs, then Full HD TVs with SD Digital TV receivers to finally Really Really For Sure Full HD TVs to Now With 3D Too (which isn't even a single fixed standard and glasses are not cross-compatible) TVs all in a short period of 6 years. Your average Joe is already pretty burned with all this.

params7 · Jan 25, 2012

Woah, disappointing as hell. Will this even be able to make future console Battlefield's look like what BF3 looks today on high end pc's? keeping in mind these consoles will go on for 6-7 years?

If the focus is on kinect, then I really hope MS fails hard and at least Sony sticks to their roots and goes for a big GPU upgrade. Next GT, KZ and UC will need it.

DopeyFish · Jan 25, 2012

params7 said:
Woah, disappointing as hell. Will this even be able to make future console Battlefield's look like what BF3 looks today on high end pc's? keeping in mind these consoles will go on for 6-7 years?

yes. with ease.

NovemberMike · Jan 25, 2012

I'm not sure what the problem is. Consoles have always had a lower power PC graphics card or equivalent, it's on the same power curve as the original xbox and the 360. The 360 also already looks good, and with a better processor and more RAM we could get some really beautiful games out of it. I'm assuming we're getting at least 2-4 gigs of RAM which should alleviate a lot of the problems consoles have had.

Support NeoGAF

IGN Rumor: Xbox 3 GPU ~= AMD 6670, Wii U ~5x current gen, Xbox 3 ~6x, Dev Kits August

GAF's Bob Woodward

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

The 'H' stands for hentai.

Banned

The Amiga Brotherhood

Banned

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

Member

The Amiga Brotherhood

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

Member

Member

Banned

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

Member

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

Member

Member

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

Banned

The Amiga Brotherhood

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

The Amiga Brotherhood

Member

Member

The Amiga Brotherhood

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

The Amiga Brotherhood

Banned

Banned

Not bitter, just unsweetened

Member

Similar threads