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Geek Critique: Metroid Prime 2 Echoes
- Thread starter The Last One
- Start date
TheDinoman
Member
Prime 2 actually does have a few throwbacks to Super Metroid, actually. The blast shields, for example, work similarily to how they do in Super (there's red, green and yellow doors that have to be opened with missiles, super missiles, and power bombs respectivley), and you have some remixed tracks such as the Torvus Bog Temple's theme, which is Brinstar Red Soil from Super. They even brought back the Screw Attack as an ability.
The space pirates themselves were also redesigned to look slightly more in line with how they look in the 2D games.
The space pirates themselves were also redesigned to look slightly more in line with how they look in the 2D games.
Echoes does have a few throwbacks, but nowhere near as many as the first Prime or Fusion and Zero Mission.Prime 2 actually does have a few throwbacks to Super Metroid, actually. The blast shields, for example, work similarily to how they do in Super (there's red, green and yellow doors that have to be opened with missiles, super missiles, and power bombs respectivley), and you have some remixed tracks such as the Torvus Bog Temple's theme, which is Brinstar Red Soil from Super. They even brought back the Screw Attack as an ability.
The space pirates themselves were also redesigned to look slightly more in line with how they look in the 2D games.
Flying Fish
Neo Member
I recommend the Trilogy on the WII U VC. The WII-Remote and Nunchuck feel much better then trying to wrestle with the GCN controller in an FPS.
Plus IIRC it's now possible to rotate and move at the same time.
Prime 2 is my favorite game in the Metroid series. The tone, enemies, bosses, and level design are simply amazing. The only flaw it has is the stupid key hunt at the end of the game. They really should have been obtainable throughout the game instead of forcing you to get pretty much all of them right at the end of the game.
Cool, thank you.
LordBaztion
Member
The only thing I remember from prime 2, besides dark samus, is that was boring. Personally I found the whole light and darkness mechanic a gimmick (Nintendo tends to overuse that mechanic). Beside the gimmick it was was prime 1 again.
The worst was the samus redesign.
The worst was the samus redesign.
It was on Gamecube first...
Otakumegane
Member
I hated the DoT before you get the suit.
It isn't fun being in a bubble until you regain Energy.
It isn't fun being in a bubble until you regain Energy.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That pretty much nailed my opinion, apart from the dislike toward Prime 1. Prime 2 isn't perfect but it was an improvement over Prime in more ways than it fell short.
I really hope Prime 4 takes a lot of inspiration from Prime 2. Prime 3 did feel like a misstep in many ways (still good, just not as good as the other two).
You don't spend that much time in the dark world prior to getting the dark suit, and after that the damage is negligible. It works well as a mental thing though because the player still has that sense of dread about the dark world even though it isn't very threatening anymore.
I really hope Prime 4 takes a lot of inspiration from Prime 2. Prime 3 did feel like a misstep in many ways (still good, just not as good as the other two).
You don't spend that much time in the dark world prior to getting the dark suit, and after that the damage is negligible. It works well as a mental thing though because the player still has that sense of dread about the dark world even though it isn't very threatening anymore.
D.Lo
Member
Yep, not clicking on a youtube idiot who makes videos titled that. Im sure he has an excited personality and mixes in my personal history with the franchise when I started this channel and all the other hey guys subscribe shit.
-shadow-
Member
While a terrific fight, with amazing cutscenes thrown throughout (and story telling in those thirty some seconds compared to the ten hour of that other thing), I was actually really disappointed that this happened. I mean, was there any narrative reasons for this to happen? Couldn't we have anything else happen? It really just feel like:
"Well... Got my arse kicked, might as well take a five minute break before trying again!"
For all I care they had moved the
robot
Finally watched the video, that was pretty insightful and interesting. I think there's some very interesting synergy between the mechanics and progression in the game, and I think replaying it without expecting it to be similar to Prime might change my opinion of it drastically... Now, what I'm not looking forward to is the environments. Yes I know the world is in decline and that the dark world is not meant to be pretty, but this is by far the least aesthetically appealing game in all of Metroid.
One thing I definitely appreciated from the game even back then though is how distinct it was. It's still the most unique game in a series where fucking everything is trying to be Super Metroid in one way or another, or at least reuse elements from it. Retro was pretty gutsy.
And holy shit, the escape sequence is probably the coolest section in the series, and that ending is the best too. Samus is so cool.
I didn't remember Dark Samus' dumb laugh though, lmao.
Holy shit.
Eh, I thought that title was odd too, but it's in line with his opinion of the game. He spends like 80% of the video praising it but then mentions how backtracking is handled badly and then there's the artifacts fetch quest, which in his opinion ruin the overall experience.
He's usually pretty fair with all the games, even when he dislikes things about them. There's no inflammatory nonsense meant to be controversial.
One thing I definitely appreciated from the game even back then though is how distinct it was. It's still the most unique game in a series where fucking everything is trying to be Super Metroid in one way or another, or at least reuse elements from it. Retro was pretty gutsy.
And holy shit, the escape sequence is probably the coolest section in the series, and that ending is the best too. Samus is so cool.
I didn't remember Dark Samus' dumb laugh though, lmao.
Holy shit.
Eh, I thought that title was odd too, but it's in line with his opinion of the game. He spends like 80% of the video praising it but then mentions how backtracking is handled badly and then there's the artifacts fetch quest, which in his opinion ruin the overall experience.
He's usually pretty fair with all the games, even when he dislikes things about them. There's no inflammatory nonsense meant to be controversial.
He does make a solid case for Echoes. The bosses are certainly the best in the entire Metroid franchise. I just did not like the Dark World all that much it is one area where the developers seemed to have been severely limited by the tech available at the time because every area blends in and are really draining after awhile. Switching between the two worlds is also a pain and the amount of times the game asked you to backtrack increased tenfold over the first game.
Echoes as a package is just better than Prime, the later showing its age in some rough areas like the bosses (90% of the bosses' patterns just consisting in shockwaves you have to jump) and a world design that discourages constant backtracking.
Echoes 2 has an amazing collection of bosses, from the Guardians (everybody loves the turbosphere or the arachnosphere bosses), each of the encounters with Dark Samus, to each area's bosses (the Amorbis, Chyka, Quadraxis).
I also find the world much easier to navigate through thanks to the hub, the portals and the elevators. The overall level design of each area is more like a doughnut than the straight line seen in Prime.
Echoes 2 has an amazing collection of bosses, from the Guardians (everybody loves the turbosphere or the arachnosphere bosses), each of the encounters with Dark Samus, to each area's bosses (the Amorbis, Chyka, Quadraxis).
I also find the world much easier to navigate through thanks to the hub, the portals and the elevators. The overall level design of each area is more like a doughnut than the straight line seen in Prime.
I was still back in grade school when I first played Echoes when it released but even then I knew I liked it more than Prime for some reason and this video pretty much nails everything I've come to realize since then about my love for it. The boss battles and QoL changes to backtracking alone put it high above the first game for me without even getting into atmosphere, story and that feeling of accomplishment you get after tackling some of its more difficult segments like the spiderball and boost guardian. It's easily one of my favorite games of all time.
Or you could just watch it and see that none of your judgmental assumptions are true.
D.Lo
Member
Or I could not because the title of one of his videos is clickbait shit and I'm welcome to reject them because of it?
And you're guaranteeing me his videos:
- Do not have him getting excited
- So not mix in my personal history with the franchise
- Do not talk about when I started this channel as if I give a shit about the history of his shitty youtube channel?
- He has never said 'hey guys' or 'please subscribe'?
He actually doesn't do any of those 
haha. Well, he does reminisce about the first time he played the game back when he was a kid, but it's to exemplify how little he understood about it back then.
The title might sound clickbaity but as I said, he's very good at analyzing the games and fair with them, recognizing their strengths even when he doesn't like them overall. The video is full of praise for Prime, also he's a beginner to the series.
haha. Well, he does reminisce about the first time he played the game back when he was a kid, but it's to exemplify how little he understood about it back then. The title might sound clickbaity but as I said, he's very good at analyzing the games and fair with them, recognizing their strengths even when he doesn't like them overall. The video is full of praise for Prime, also he's a beginner to the series.
MAtgS
Member
God forbid someone has an opinion of his own instead of parroting the MP1 worship.
Huh... are you okay ?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
This sounds more like you're complaining about youtube as a site than anything. Is complaining about videos you never watched the new complaining about games you never played?
There weren't any points when he was excessively excited, except perhaps while joking. And that only happens a handful of times throughout a 40 minute video. It certainly isn't full of yelling and jump cuts.
Talking about some of his history with the franchise is relevant to the video, so I don't know why you would complain about that being there. His video on Prime 1 is also the only thing he mentioned regarding his channel, and that came up maybe twice.
I don't remember if he encouraged subscriptions/likes at the end of the video but he probably did, because that's standard procedure for any content creator on Youtube.
One of the undersold aspects of Echoes is the impact of its shortcuts to empower the player.
Dark Agon Wastes for example is initially split into two separate sections, and the only way to travel between them is to go to the light world version and travel to the other portal. When you get the Super Missiles however, you can open a hallway that connects the two halves, making Dark Agon Wastes far easier to traverse.
The same thing happens with finding the elevators connecting the three major areas outside Temple Grounds to each other, since it means you no longer have to trudge through Temple Grounds every time you want to move between them.
By the end of the game, backtracking and traversing the world becomes far easier than it is in Prime 1, even though Prime 2's world seems more constrained than Prime 1's at the beginning. Combined with the power of the Light Suit and the Annihilator Beam, you feel yourself take control of what was once an unfriendly environment.
Dark Agon Wastes for example is initially split into two separate sections, and the only way to travel between them is to go to the light world version and travel to the other portal. When you get the Super Missiles however, you can open a hallway that connects the two halves, making Dark Agon Wastes far easier to traverse.
The same thing happens with finding the elevators connecting the three major areas outside Temple Grounds to each other, since it means you no longer have to trudge through Temple Grounds every time you want to move between them.
By the end of the game, backtracking and traversing the world becomes far easier than it is in Prime 1, even though Prime 2's world seems more constrained than Prime 1's at the beginning. Combined with the power of the Light Suit and the Annihilator Beam, you feel yourself take control of what was once an unfriendly environment.
Nice derail though.
edit: ah, he's already banned. Mod used speed booster.
I hope he does a Prime 3 video now, cuz it's my favorite (I know, I know...).
Prime 3 > 1 > 2 for me.
I love the whole trilogy though, and he made me want to play Echoes again, which is quite a feat.
Dolphin and Dolphin bar, here I come.
edit: ah, he's already banned. Mod used speed booster.
I hope he does a Prime 3 video now, cuz it's my favorite (I know, I know...).
Prime 3 > 1 > 2 for me.
I love the whole trilogy though, and he made me want to play Echoes again, which is quite a feat.
Dolphin and Dolphin bar, here I come.
MAtgS
Member
The MP1 video isn't all that clickbaity because it reflects the guy's actual opinion.
Now his 3DS video on the other hand....
Now his 3DS video on the other hand....
Anyway, I can't wait till he gets to Other M, now THAT will be interesting coming from someone new to the series.
I'm curious to see what he thinks of Prime 3 compared to the others as well.
This was so needed in Prime 1. Right now without replaying 2 I prefer 1, but the backtracking there is so terrible that I almost suspect it's intentionally so due to Nintendo's annoying obsession with padding their games back at the time.
I'm curious to see what he thinks of Prime 3 compared to the others as well.
This was so needed in Prime 1. Right now without replaying 2 I prefer 1, but the backtracking there is so terrible that I almost suspect it's intentionally so due to Nintendo's annoying obsession with padding their games back at the time.
TheDinoman
Member
Like I said on the other page, he's actually finished all the reviews for his Retro Studios season. He'll upload his Prime 3 review for non-Patreon supporters on YT next Saturday.
The Last One
Member
You really should watch his videos before making such claims.
On-topic: I can't stress enough how incredible the soundtrack of the Prime series is, especially Echoes. Such a high standard from this media.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'd be curious what he has to say about it just because I feel like 3 undoes a lot of what I like about 2, and he seems to share similar opinions on 2 as me. It handled the fetch quest better and has stronger lore than the first two games, but I felt like the scope was too big (one more diverse planet > multiple less diverse ones, IMO), the environments too linear and disconnected, and the whole game was too cinematic. Also the beam upgrades were so disappointing compared to getting new beams.
I think it's more due to taking inspiration from the 2D Metroid games. Norfair in Super Metroid is only connected to Brinstar via one entrance for example, and you're supposed to backtrack between Norfair and Brinstar multiple times before navigating the Wrecked Ship and Maridia. However, that worked better in a game structured like Super Metroid.
Notably, the sequence breaks in Prime really improve its backtracking problems. Getting the Space Jump early and skipping the Gravity Suit cuts out two of the worst forced backtracking moments.
ClearMetal
Member
Couldn't get into Echoes back on the GameCube. Not really sure why, maybe the aesthetics just didn't gel with me. The light/dark juxtaposition was OK, but I preferred the more organic vibe from Prime over the more futuristic approach from Echoes. I also felt the design of Samus' suits were a step back compared to the Varia, Gravity and Phazon suits.
Decided to give it another chance on the Wii a few years ago and I liked it a lot more the second time around. Still not a big fan of the futuristic stuff, but I can appreciate that they at least tried to set it apart from Prime. I'm actually impressed with what they managed to create in the limited amount of development time they were given. They did reuse content, but that only becomes glaring for me when I encounter reused enemy models. With Aether being such a unique place, it kind of takes you out of it when you encounter color swaps of the beetles and baby sheegoths from Talon IV.
Decided to give it another chance on the Wii a few years ago and I liked it a lot more the second time around. Still not a big fan of the futuristic stuff, but I can appreciate that they at least tried to set it apart from Prime. I'm actually impressed with what they managed to create in the limited amount of development time they were given. They did reuse content, but that only becomes glaring for me when I encounter reused enemy models. With Aether being such a unique place, it kind of takes you out of it when you encounter color swaps of the beetles and baby sheegoths from Talon IV.
The Last One
Member
But that's the thing: backtracking in a game like Prime isn't really a problem if the world is organic and interesting enough. Is just one more reason to explore, since that's the nodal element behind the game's structure.
What confuses me is that while it's similar to the way SM is structured, backtracking in Prime feels significantly more time consuming and more aggravating. I could be misremembering but I never feel I'm taking too long traversing between areas in SM because the upgrades you get at the end of each facilitate traversal on your way back.
In Prime the areas feel significantly more horizontal, I guess? And thus you're always taking more or less the same amount of time no matter your progress.
Also I have never tried the sequence breaks myself but didn't they aggressively patched those in almost every new release after the american launch? That sucks.
Personally I found it a non issue for most of the game as I adored Tallon IV, but then the endgame fetch quest happens and ugh.
In Prime the areas feel significantly more horizontal, I guess? And thus you're always taking more or less the same amount of time no matter your progress.
Also I have never tried the sequence breaks myself but didn't they aggressively patched those in almost every new release after the american launch? That sucks.
Personally I found it a non issue for most of the game as I adored Tallon IV, but then the endgame fetch quest happens and ugh.
The Last One
Member
This is an expected development in the transposition of 2D to 3D. The perspective of reality is guided by the way the game is presented. In the case of Metroid, a series of corridors concatenated in vertical and horizontal give way to much larger and more diverse spaces.
LordKasual
Banned
Prime 2 actually does have a few throwbacks to Super Metroid, actually. The blast shields, for example, work similarily to how they do in Super (there's red, green and yellow doors that have to be opened with missiles, super missiles, and power bombs respectivley), and you have some remixed tracks such as the Torvus Bog Temple's theme, which is Brinstar Red Soil from Super. They even brought back the Screw Attack as an ability.
The space pirates themselves were also redesigned to look slightly more in line with how they look in the 2D games.
those are more "nods" than anything. Like a Mario game having coins and mushrooms. Lore and gameplay wise, Echoes just went completely off-rails and did its own thing. It took the Sci-Fi basis of Metroid and just ran with it, like any good sequel does.
Im going to go a step further and say that Corruption also deserves this recognition. While it wasn't as crazy as Echoes, Prime 3 took the already established concepts from Prime 1 / 2 and moved forward with them, in a natural way.
It went on to conclude the Phazon storyline. Samus' affliction actually gave us a new gameplay mechanic. We got to visit the Space Pirates' home world, and use their technology for a change. Also, for (what i believe is) the first time, the Space Pirates actually abuse the same tech that the player does. The lore of the worlds we visited was legitimately interesting.
We actually got to fight alongside the Galactic Federation for a change. None of that stupid "THE GOVERNMENT IS SECRETLY EVIL" bullshit.
They behave like a "galactic federation", not a galactic government so moronic that there's no way humanity would have gotten that far
there's concept art suggesting that mp2 was going to have a Dark Ridley at one point but seems like they didn't have the time to do it like how they didn't have time to put Kraid in mp1.
it's sort of a blessing in disguise in retrospect since they're abusing Ridley these days. i'm now expecting him to show up in Prime 4 at some point.
AmayaPapaya
Banned
Echoes is my favorite game of all time. Better than Prime in every way. I played Prime and was amazed. I was like, "This is my favorite game of all time!" Then I got into MP2 thinking it was gonna be the worst one in the trilogy (which was the consensus at the time) but nope. Secret best game of all time.
FloweryMarston
Member
I sometimes feel that people say that they love prime 2 more than the first due to overexposure of the original and its popularity.
RumbleHumble
Banned
You just ripped the words right out of my mouth. I will also say that Dark World mechanics discouraging Dark World exploration in an exploration game was kinda a bummer. Not in that the mechanics ever really limited exploration that much, but setting up light bubbles got pretty tedious until you receive the light suit.
The Prime game that I didn't finish. I just wasn't a fan of the whole getting damage passively in the dark world, and that made it even worse with the boost guardian, where I just gave up. That was years ago with the gamecube version through, so maybe this game would finally click for me on a replay of the wii version and all.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
The Trilogy version had the difficulty tweaked. Even factoring out different difficulty modes (original GC difficulty is "veteran" in Trilogy) I think they made some bosses like the Boost and Spider guardians easier.
You also take barely any damage from the environment once you get the dark suit. Enough for the player to remain uncomfortable in the dark world but it shouldn't be enough to make a difference in you getting killed. Earlier dark world bosses give you oodles of health pickups during fights and during later ones you should have tons of energy tanks.
Prime 2 is my least favorite game in the trilogy, but it's still a great game. It has the best bosses and difficulty in the series, my main problem with it is how slow dark world sections are because of the constantly draining health. So much time wasted just sitting in the light waiting for your health to recover before moving on. This also made some bosses easier than I feel they were supposed to be because so long as you stay in the light it's really hard to die.
Oh and the fetch quest sucks. I say this as someone who has no problem with the one in Prime 1. In Prime 1 you're able to start the fetch quest very very early in the game, so on my first playthrough I spent almost the entire game aware that my ultimate goal was finding all the artifacts. By the time I beat the Omega Pirate, I only needed like 2 left and I already knew where they were. In Prime 2, the fetch quest is locked off until you get the light suit meaning you have to do it all at once and it gets really tedious, ruining the natural progression it had in Prime 1. Thankfully Prime 3 returns to Prime 1 style, letting you get all the stuff you need during the course of the game.
Oh and the fetch quest sucks. I say this as someone who has no problem with the one in Prime 1. In Prime 1 you're able to start the fetch quest very very early in the game, so on my first playthrough I spent almost the entire game aware that my ultimate goal was finding all the artifacts. By the time I beat the Omega Pirate, I only needed like 2 left and I already knew where they were. In Prime 2, the fetch quest is locked off until you get the light suit meaning you have to do it all at once and it gets really tedious, ruining the natural progression it had in Prime 1. Thankfully Prime 3 returns to Prime 1 style, letting you get all the stuff you need during the course of the game.
Honestly it'd be nice with Ridley if they just did anything more creative with him than shoehorning in a typical fight with him and then jumping through hoops to explain how he's still alive or whatever.
Like reference him or something in the plot, but do something fresh with the series. Honestly I'm worried they'll find some way to ditch the Fusion suit to go back to Samus' iconic suit in Metroid 5, but at least its appearance in Samus Returns is promising.
Like reference him or something in the plot, but do something fresh with the series. Honestly I'm worried they'll find some way to ditch the Fusion suit to go back to Samus' iconic suit in Metroid 5, but at least its appearance in Samus Returns is promising.