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Japan going back to its roots according to Tales producer

C

cosmicblizzard

Banned
grimshawish said:
Sensible. How can you expect developers to just ignore their own tastes, culture and upbringing? Its ridiculous.

Still not sure why there aren't better online built into some Japanese games.
Co-Op options especially could bring some games to life rather brilliantly.

This is one place only a few have truly excelled in. The traditional RPG has especially missed out.
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I figured they just don't care much about multiplayer outside of Pokemon and Monster Hunter, so no real need to look into that stuff, especially when I hear a lot of Japan doesn't even have an internet connection (don't know if that's true).
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Meccanical said:
The original XIII was a result of people not knowing how to make a video game, not trying to be western.

It just so happens that not knowing how to make a game resembles a linear corridor shooter.
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.
"The basic RPG functions are to go into towns, prepare for battle by going to shops, then go out in the field," Toriyama explained. "In that sense, Final Fantasy XIII doesn't have towns or shops—it's more that players are thrown into a story, presented with different situations as they move forward in the field and keep progressing that way."

Here's how that relates to Call of Duty, in Toriyama's mind.

""In that sense it's more similar to an FPS genre, like Call of Duty, he said. "That's not to say it's an action shooting game at all, so Final Fantasy XIII takes some different aspects of different genres, transcending different types of games."
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http://kotaku.com/5470533/final-fan...-of-call-of-duty-card-games--the-toyota-prius
 
R

Rpgmonkey

Member
ZachDeKoromaru said:
Does that mean an overworld again? Fuck yes. Does this mean a return to the 2D battle gameplay? Not sure how to feel since I've never played any of those Tales games.
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Despite what he's saying, I'd say Vesperia was the last Tales game that was traditional.

Classic worldmaps/overworlds have been gone for a while now, and lately they've been experimenting more with the gameplay, art direction, world presentation/interactivity, and style of storytelling.

There's still a Tales feel I suppose, which is good, but I feel Tales in particular has edged further away from the oldschool JRPG roots recently.
 
O

ohlawd

Member
oh hell no.

man I was so close on getting every Japanese developer to make a hallway simulator game that everyone loves and adores and I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling Tales producer, Baba.
 
S

Samurai-Don

Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
So what do you guys thing? Is Japan making a return to mainstream appeal/quality without losing their identity?
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At the time of writing I would say that Namco is properly the one leading the return as they clearly understand that their is a market for Japanese game in the west.

But with company like Capcom and Square Enix who will still westernize their games while refusing to localize the good Japanese game we still have a long way to go.

Meccanical said:
Lightning Returns says otherwise.
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What's Lighting Returns, is it some kind of Tokusatsu super heroes because if that what it is then it sounds pretty cool and wouldn't mind playing the game.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Psi said:
That's true. I probably should have said main line Final Fantasy rather than Square Enix. Though the final verdict will be when Versus XIII is released(lol).
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Sorry to harp on you, but just for the sake of argument: even Final Fantasy.... can anyone really say that was "westernized" at all? Certainly not in art style, story, or development workflow.

There was that bullshit spin about it being "inspired by CoD's linearity" but that's obviously after-the-fact rationalization for their botched development path where they had to cobble together a very pretty game in a short 2 year development time (basically.. "But guys, we're not the only ones who make games in a straight line!! CoD does it too!") *


Final Fantasy's recent problems actually have to do with a stagnant development culture.... Trying to make HD games and modern stories with a rigid corporate structure that evolved in the 8 to 32-bit eras. So actually FF needs more innovation and could probably stand to be "less Japanese" in its development... And this thread is actually talking about doubling down on Japanese skills. I don't really think Square Enix belongs in this thread, unless to say "we want to see Japanese-flavored games from more than just Square Enix".


* EDIT: I see this was mentioned above. Yeah, the idea that the FF team actually looked at CoD for inspiration in ~2008 is HUGE bullshit. It surely wasn't even on their radar until they published MW2 in 2009. They used it as an after-the-fact excuse for their coincidental linearity, no doubt in my mind. It was spin for the western journalists.
 
G

gundamkyoukai

Member
SolidSnakex said:
This is the same thing that the director of Puppeteer said. He mentioned that he's talked to several game makers in Japan and they all mentioned moving away from chasing the west and just getting back to what they're comfortable with. Should be a great sign for the upcoming generation.
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That is really good to here .
I hope we start to see good things from them Japaneses devs again .
 
H

HolyBaikal

Banned
Just for the record, Eastern and Western developers should always try to take influence from each other in sincere ways. Ways that desire to make a better game. With the result being a game that everyone can be proud of, not just a game that has only changes superficial aspects or things that don't inherently help gameplay.

Like they said, Quantum Theory poorly imitated Gears of War, and it showed. While on the other hand, Skyward Sword sold around as many copies as Skyrim. Possibly more. And was nearly universally praised. And if I'm not mistaken, the Western game that competes with Call of Duty for the most successful game here in recent year, is Minecraft. A colourful game about building.

There are many audiences. And plenty of people who like extremely, extremely Japanese games. They just want to play high quality ones.
 
D

Derrick01

Banned
After playing Persona 4 and liking what little I've done in Ni No Kuni so far I think I'm starting to agree, especially as the quality in the west collapses more and more each year. Both sides need to go back to what made them great in the 90s and early 2000s.
 
T

TurnipFritters

Member
Derrick01 said:
After playing Persona 4 and liking what little I've done in Ni No Kuni so far I think I'm starting to agree, especially as the quality in the west collapses more and more each year. Both sides need to go back to what made them great in the 90s and early 2000s.
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Everyone hates the Persona games from the 90s and the early 2000s though.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
Derrick01 said:
After playing Persona 4 and liking what little I've done in Ni No Kuni so far I think I'm starting to agree, especially as the quality in the west collapses more and more each year. Both sides need to go back to what made them great in the 90s and early 2000s.
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They do, but part of what made them great was innovation. Making formulaic, dated games isn't the answer to anything but success with niche markets. The Tales of model is hardly the model you want for all of Japanese gaming.

Just look at his response to someone asking about Dark Souls. He doesn't even know how to process it.

"1UP: Other action-RPGs like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have shown, I guess, that you can take a less direct approach to teaching people how to play your game. As someone who designs RPGs, how do you feel about that approach? I can't see it working for Tales, but I'm interested in how you personally feel about it.

HB: I think something you find pretty often in Japanese culture is preparation. We value preparation quite heavily. A lot of times that tendency shows up in our video games, where rather than just dumping someone into the game, we're very meticulous about showing them everything -- "This is how you do this. This is how you do that." We can't help but feel that way sometimes. As much as I might like to see that in some cases, I think it would be difficult. For our generation, we've been taught by our superiors very often that you have to make sure that your game is completely understandable in the first 30 minutes. If the player doesn't understand how to play the game within that first 30 minutes, you've failed. That's been ingrained into our thinking. It would be difficult to deviate from that."
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For all the people trashing SQEX, at least they always try new things. I will always respect that. If you guys didn't like XIII, XV was always going to be totally different from it, regardless of it's popularity. Tales on the other hand is pretty much the same thing. If you want that model from SQEX, that's what Dragon Quest is.
 
P

Psi

Member
BocoDragon said:
Sorry to harp on you, but just for the sake of argument: even Final Fantasy.... can anyone really say that was "westernized" at all? Certainly not in art style, story, or development workflow.

There was that bullshit spin about it being "inspired by CoD's linearity" but that's obviously after-the-fact rationalization for their botched development path where they had to cobble together a very pretty game in a short 2 year development time (basically.. "But guys, we're not the only ones who make games in a straight line!! CoD does it too!") *


Final Fantasy's recent problems actually have to do with a stagnant development culture.... Trying to make HD games and modern stories with a rigid corporate structure that evolved in the 8 to 32-bit eras. So actually FF needs more innovation and could probably stand to be "less Japanese" in its development... And this thread is actually talking about doubling down on Japanese skills. I don't really think Square Enix belongs in this thread, unless to say "we want to see Japanese-flavored games from more than just Square Enix".


* EDIT: I see this was mentioned above. Yeah, the idea that the FF team actually looked at CoD for inspiration in ~2008 is HUGE bullshit. It surely wasn't even on their radar until they published MW2 in 2009. They used it as an after-the-fact excuse for their coincidental linearity, no doubt in my mind.
Click to expand...

Those are fair points, but I do feel like it had some Western influences on it. The story presentation reminded me of Lost quite a bit with the flashbacks. Lazy one-liner dialogue that might have been inspired from Michael Bay movies. They tweaked the class names to stuff like Commando and Medic in the english versions, though I suppose that is a minor after-the-fact thing.

Whether or not the Call of Duty thing is bullshit or not I wouldn't say I know for sure, but it certainly was a good excuse for the linearity and simplification.

This is all just my opinion on it though, and could have been colored in retrospect from what the company has said themselves.
 
R

RedSwirl

Junior Member
That depends on what they mean by "back to its roots" I guess. Dark Souls is a very good example of balance between old and new. The mentality behind the game's design is very old school, but the execution is extremely modern, and could only be accomplished on today's consoles. Similarly, Ni No Kuni is what I always imagined a classic JRPG should look like on today's hardware.
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
BocoDragon said:
Sorry to harp on you, but just for the sake of argument: even Final Fantasy.... can anyone really say that was "westernized" at all? Certainly not in art style, story, or development workflow.

There was that bullshit spin about it being "inspired by CoD's linearity" but that's obviously after-the-fact rationalization for their botched development path where they had to cobble together a very pretty game in a short 2 year development time (basically.. "But guys, we're not the only ones who make games in a straight line!! CoD does it too!") *


Final Fantasy's recent problems actually have to do with a stagnant development culture.... Trying to make HD games and modern stories with a rigid corporate structure that evolved in the 8 to 32-bit eras. So actually FF needs more innovation and could probably stand to be "less Japanese" in its development... And this thread is actually talking about doubling down on Japanese skills. I don't really think Square Enix belongs in this thread, unless to say "we want to see Japanese-flavored games from more than just Square Enix".


* EDIT: I see this was mentioned above. Yeah, the idea that the FF team actually looked at CoD for inspiration in ~2008 is HUGE bullshit. It surely wasn't even on their radar until they published MW2 in 2009. They used it as an after-the-fact excuse for their coincidental linearity, no doubt in my mind.
Click to expand...
I sincerely doubt they weren't aware of the best reviewed and one of the best selling games of 2007. Modern Warfare's release also lines up for when they started full development of XIII, rather than the development hell they were in.

I don't think they're lying. I think they're being honest in taking cues from Call of Duty for XIII. They didn't know what to do with XIII for a long ass time and ultimately used MW for their inspiration.
 
E

epmode

Member
The only real positive to Japan aping Western development this generation has been the excellent PC ports as opposed to the garbage from years past.
 
D

DJIzana

Member
I loooove reading this news. Today has been an AMAZINGLY good day with news like this. I hope that even Square Enix follows this.

Why should they compete with Western games in the first place? Their games were popular for that very reason.
The fact that they stood out and were (and still) are very unique and fun loving!
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
airmangataosenai said:
XIII's original was pretty clearly a response to western action games. XIII-2 attempted to include western style story branching dialogue
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To XIII I'll say "hell naw", and I explained why above.

To XIII-2 I'd say yeah, sort of. By that time they were willing to throw in whatever western gaming elements their adviser from Eidos teams would tell them to: DLC, branching dialogue, etc. But XIII-2 was still Japanese as all hell.

Again, this thread is not really about FF or Square Enix much at all. Their problems do not stem from trying to be western at all. They need help. But telling them "stick to your Japanese roots" will not begin to address their problems.
 
F

fluffydelusions

Member
deviljho said:
the-last-samurai-nathan-algren-katsumoto-fight-together.jpg
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Back to roots...

images
 
M

Meccanical

Member
cosmicblizzard said:
Huh? I always hear people saying P2 is the best in the series (though I doubt I'd agree with that).
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Well for one it seems to involve more than plucky teenagers fighting monster, ghosts and gods so that's a plus.

Granted they might just be sprinkled with plucky adults for all I know. I never played P2, but it looked cool.

Negotiation needs to come back somehow, that's a cool mechanic.
 
T

Typographenia

Member
Who is this imposter? Only Kamiya speaks for all of japan.


So what do you guys thing? Is Japan making a return to mainstream appeal/quality without losing their identity? Can they still cater to Japanese tastes while getting some global appreciation out of it? Or will they have to try their hand at westernizing their games some more?
Click to expand...
I think it's completely possible, and they've been doing it the entire time. The problem is that there just doesn't seem to be as many titles as there once were making it big over here. Deadly Premonition, No More Heroes, Bayonetta, Binary Domain, and more have been some of my favorite titles this gen, and they're pretty freaking japanese. I would love a resurgence in japanese game popularity.
 
Riposte

Riposte

Member
I really dislike this trend where Japanese games are called "un-Japanese" despite clearly playing very differently from their western counterparts. Some of the reasoning behind it is really silly too. Ultimately you just put Japanese developers in a box where they have to be low-budget and quirky or whatever.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Jonnyram said:
talesofheartscg.jpg
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The irony is that we never even saw either version of that game here. It was probably meant for a western release, but they really may've figured there'd be fans over there that'd want that, modern-only FF fans or something I guess.

Anyways, I do think they're carving out a bit of a stable niche again, whether it's that they're appealing again now that more developers are getting their heads around HD development at last (and hopefully won't have these issues next gen), or simply realized how they can reliably market to here rather than expecting to get the biggest numbers. And it may well be that the sales for more niche stuff dropped at a MUCH lower rate than everything else last year (maybe not at all?), proving to be more stable than the AAA market.

I also think what helps is not going in the other direction (pandering to a small Japanese niche) unless that's how your business model been working for you all along (Idea Factory, Compile Heart, and to a somewhat lesser degree NIS unfortunately). Simply avoiding that I think makes things a lot more appealing beyond Japan without trying to be something they aren't.
 
L

Loxley

Member
This gen was definitely growing pains for every developer around, east and west. Glad to see that more Japanese devs are starting to realize that it was their own distinct style that made them kings of the industry for so damn long in the first place. Trying to imitate western developers can only get you so far.

Hopefully other prominent developers on that side of the Pacific will also have a resurgence.
 
D

demidar

Member
While going back to their roots is good, they should attempt to at least not make some scenes/dialogue/characters/story elicit head-shaking or cringing.
 
H

HolyBaikal

Banned
BocoDragon said:
But XIII-2 was still Japanese as all hell.
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In many ways, it seems that Final Fantasy XIII-2 is more Japanese than XIII.

I haven't played it so my perspective is pretty embarrassingly limited, to the point I maybe shouldn't be making commentary on it. But I did see lots of gameplay footage.

And what I saw was a theme-park of Japanese-ness. And I feel the game would have done a lot better were it not... well.... XIII-2.
 
RSLAEV

RSLAEV

Member
Sounds like a cop-out to me. They may have had limited success shoehorning unfamiliar game design ideas into their games, but in the end they were wholly responsible for making sure the games were worth buying.

I would be surprised if a Japanese development house finished a game tested it and decided " Well this isn't exactly a great game, but we're pretty sure it's what the west wants-ship it!"

A lot of poor management decisions were made this generation, and several japanese studios were caught unprepared to enter HD game development. Those two factors alone were responsible for a lot more damage than this myth that Japanese developers crippled their own games for the sake of garnering appeal from a western audience.
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
Riposte said:
I really dislike this trend where Japanese games are called "un-Japanese" despite clearly playing very differently from their western counterparts. Some of the reasoning behind it is really silly too. Ultimately you just put Japanese developers in a box where they have to be low-budget and quirky or whatever.
Click to expand...

I don't think Ni no Kuni or Dark Souls fit into those two descriptions. There's a big difference between those and something like Quantum Theory. And not just in terms of quality.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
grandjedi6 said:
I sincerely doubt they weren't aware of the best reviewed and one of the best selling games of 2007. Modern Warfare's release also lines up for when they started full development of XIII, rather than the development hell they were in.

I don't think they're lying. I think they're being honest in taking cues from Call of Duty for XIII. They didn't know what to do with XIII for a long ass time and ultimately used MW for their inspiration.
Click to expand...

It's more that they had a whole bunch of art assets when they started full development, and they thought "how can we quickly turn this into a full game, we've established it has to be pretty, and we've established it has to have a highly advanced Advent Children-like battle system".

The inevitable result is that level design takes a back seat.

I'm sure that they looked around and said "can we get away with making a linear game?" *looks at what gaijin are playing* "Ok CoD exists. We can get away with making a linear game".

But do I think for a second they say around a table in 2007 and said "guys we need some of this CoD money... let's leverage its greatest asset, linearity, and the kids around the world will eat it up!" ? hell no. That didn't happen. The inspiration from CoD was mainly to say "hey stop hating our linear game, we're not the only one". Not that they went out of their way to copy it. Notice that CoD was only trotted out after the Japanese release earned intense criticism for linearity.
 
F

FateBreaker

Member
[Clark Gable];46769695 said:
Yeah, don't really give a fuck. Just don't fuck with the Tales formula.
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Well then you do, actually, give a fuck, because if you didn't give a fuck, you wouldn't give a fuck with how they fuck with the Tales series.
 
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