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Kotaku: Games Like Project Phoenix Ruin Kickstarter For Everyone Else
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
gigantor21
Member
So they just randomly started funnelling the money into a separate project after the main one got delayed? The fuck?
Phrozenflame500
Member
What exactly could Kickstarter do about it? The money's not going to be unspent.
jadedm17
Member
It's always been my understanding Kickstarter was a gamble, I'm not sure what to expect them to do : The rules have been laid out clearly.
There's always someone who's gonna ruin it for everyone else no matter what the system. (eBay, Craigslist, prepaid credit cards, trade in programs, no receipt store returns etc.)
There's always someone who's gonna ruin it for everyone else no matter what the system. (eBay, Craigslist, prepaid credit cards, trade in programs, no receipt store returns etc.)
SinCityAssassin
Member
Was the project funded BEFORE Kickstarter implemented the working prototype rule?
sleepwalkcapsules
Member
Kickstarter is supposed to be risky.
If it was a sure bet it would be a fancy pre-order marketplace.
It's not bad that people are understanding what they are getting into.
If it was a sure bet it would be a fancy pre-order marketplace.
It's not bad that people are understanding what they are getting into.
Project Phoenix and Soul Saga are reasons why I stopped backing most things on Kickstarter to begin with, at least in the gaming space. Video game kickstarters are so hit and miss that it's better to wait and see how everything shakes out as opposed to backing something that may languish in dev hell or just flat out not happen. Even big projects with tons of support seem suspect at this point unless they've proven themselves both outside and in Kickstarter. That't to say all gaming kickstarters are shit, but it's better to err on the side of restraint and save yourself the potential heartache of losing money to something that will never actually come.
Shake Appeal
Member
I have yet to have a negative Kickstarter experience. Every game I've backed has at least met my expectations. Several of them have been some of my best gaming experiences (e.g., HBS Shadowrun titles).
If you aren't comfortable maybe not getting anything for your investment, here's a crazy idea--and bear with me here--Don't Invest.
I say this as a guy who got burned to the tune of $129 for an eInk watch that raised a million bucks and vanished from the face of the planet.
I say this as a guy who got burned to the tune of $129 for an eInk watch that raised a million bucks and vanished from the face of the planet.
Power Shot
Member
I see it both ways. On the one hand, you're investing in a project when you back a Kickstarter. Investments don't always pay off, as any investor will tell you (Hollywood is a very good example of this, as pouring tons of money into a movie doesn't guarantee results).
On the other hand, there are laws in place to make sure that money is properly recorded and filed as spent, and people aren't just fraudulently spending money. Kickstarter, I'm to understand, assumes very little liability in the actual product itself. They don't collect revenue from the game or project, just from being the host of the money collection itself. As such, Kickstarter is unlikely to amend its policies because doing so opens it up to a host of legal complications it doesn't have to deal with.
Later on, the laws may change as they catch up to the twenty-first century, but I really wish crowdfunding would get its act together. For every success story like Shovel Knight, we have a hundred awful Might No. 9's ruining what's a very positive development in the video game industry.
On the other hand, there are laws in place to make sure that money is properly recorded and filed as spent, and people aren't just fraudulently spending money. Kickstarter, I'm to understand, assumes very little liability in the actual product itself. They don't collect revenue from the game or project, just from being the host of the money collection itself. As such, Kickstarter is unlikely to amend its policies because doing so opens it up to a host of legal complications it doesn't have to deal with.
Later on, the laws may change as they catch up to the twenty-first century, but I really wish crowdfunding would get its act together. For every success story like Shovel Knight, we have a hundred awful Might No. 9's ruining what's a very positive development in the video game industry.
It's one thing to take a certain amount of risk (look at Mighty No9) but projects like this one are just a scam.
I also did. And a lot of questions were asked inside my head.
balladofwindfishes
Member
This is kind of how Board Game Kickstarters work already
Shift Breaker
Member
For every Shovel Knight, there's one of these. Maybe two.
Makes me happy that everything I've backed has at least turned out okay, and the upcoming three have provided plenty of updates and two of them even PC demos. (Shenmue, Bloodstained and Pixel Noir)
Makes me happy that everything I've backed has at least turned out okay, and the upcoming three have provided plenty of updates and two of them even PC demos. (Shenmue, Bloodstained and Pixel Noir)
BibiMaghoo
Member
Lol.
I think kickstarters that are already long established and funded studios or companies ruin it more, to be honest.
Messofanego
Banned
Same, I thought this was about that game from the XCOM creator, Julian Gollop.
Rockin' Ranger
Member
Working prototype rule doesn't apply to video games, only to projects for physical goods.
RedlineRonin
Member
That first line is kind of interesting.
What is kickstarter supposed to do to get people's money back if it was spent?
Also, I would totally advocate for more clarity on deliverables, but that seems tough. Like, let's say you'd want to setup milestones and say if they don't hit X milestone by Y date, people get their money back, idk where you even start with arguing whether they did or didn't hit deliverables. dates are objective, but deliverables certainly aren't.
Seems like a really tough situation. i continue to believe that people who go to KS and Fig etc. that have shown trustworthiness, will continue to do well.
What is kickstarter supposed to do to get people's money back if it was spent?
Also, I would totally advocate for more clarity on deliverables, but that seems tough. Like, let's say you'd want to setup milestones and say if they don't hit X milestone by Y date, people get their money back, idk where you even start with arguing whether they did or didn't hit deliverables. dates are objective, but deliverables certainly aren't.
Seems like a really tough situation. i continue to believe that people who go to KS and Fig etc. that have shown trustworthiness, will continue to do well.
Hades Hotgun
Banned
I backed:
Mighty no 9 - a bad game.
Project Phoenix - bullshit.
Hyper Light Drifter - fucking amazing.
Cosmic Star Heroine - I swear I will get to this after Persona, Nioh, Nier DLC... FFXII... Yakuza... eventually I will play this game.
Indivisible - Looks awesome so far.
Battle Chasers - Looks awesome so far.
I am not gonna get bent outta shape about the vaporware or the clunker, because I understood that there were no real guarantees to begin with. HLD alone was worth all the money I spent across all those games. Investment is not without risk and Kickstarter is not a storefront, so don't expect consumer protections when you kickstart something.
Mighty no 9 - a bad game.
Project Phoenix - bullshit.
Hyper Light Drifter - fucking amazing.
Cosmic Star Heroine - I swear I will get to this after Persona, Nioh, Nier DLC... FFXII... Yakuza... eventually I will play this game.
Indivisible - Looks awesome so far.
Battle Chasers - Looks awesome so far.
I am not gonna get bent outta shape about the vaporware or the clunker, because I understood that there were no real guarantees to begin with. HLD alone was worth all the money I spent across all those games. Investment is not without risk and Kickstarter is not a storefront, so don't expect consumer protections when you kickstart something.
Board games now though have working prototypes so you can tell if a game is going to be for you or not. It also helps that a ton of them are done by actual companies that just need the capital up front to print and ship the game as opposed to needing to develop them from almost scratch.
chrominance
Member
I basically only support Kickstarter games that a) seem like they almost certainly won't be made by any other means, and b) have a really solid and realistic pitch behind them. I actually tend to be very skeptical of high-profile Kickstarters these days, or at least the ones that aren't "we are making a sequel to our previous very successful Kickstarter game," because they tend to be the ones that rely the most on the reputations of the people involved and a nebulous idea of what the game should be.
Oh, also: the more elaborate your rewards structure is, the more skeptical I become of your product.
Oh, also: the more elaborate your rewards structure is, the more skeptical I become of your product.
I read this earlier, If I'm getting this right. They stopped using the KS money for the game they promised and diverted it to another project that is being partially funded by private investors. The success of the new project will help the development of original KS game.
Fuck that.
Fuck that.
Alex_Mexico
Member
This project has been a tire fire from the beginning.
As Schreier's article notes, the guy running the Kickstarter was a composer with no experience actually developing a game. He got a bunch of industry friends together, consisting almost entirely of composers and artists, to do the pitch. The team credits in the original pitch had one game designer and one unnamed programmer.
They couldn't actually secure the programmer to work on the project, perhaps because they were planning on getting people to work primarily for royalties when the game was done (or as their FAQ put it, each of our members are professionals in their own field, they do not require a salary right now, and so, are donating their time and effort into developing Project Phoenix) before exploding the scope of the game after the Kickstarter's success. As a result, they sunk two years into making a bunch of models and music for a game that literally didn't exist.
Here's where they were two years after getting funded:
Now, three and a half years into the project (according to this latest update), they've blown through all the money they raised on the Kickstarter ("Now of course not all of the 1.03M USD was invested on 3d models, we commissioned concept art for a full world.") and still have nothing to show for it. So, if we take them at their word, they're using other resources to try to make something smaller that will convince outside private investors to give them more cash.
Jupiter_Shrooms
Member
Welp... this is now another project that has decided that the best way to create the game is to work on an entirely different game!
AlexFlame116
Member
I donated a dollar to this project. It would have been 250 cause I wanted the art book but out of nowhere my bank wasn't working and my card wouldn't allow spending higher than 10 dollars. It was the last day to pledge too so I was disappointed. Looks like it was a good thing that that happened!
Okay other Kickstarter project I backed was Shantae: Half-Genie Hero at 250 dollars (I again really wanted a physical artbook) and I'm completely happy on that one!
I just wish that they had reached their goal of having animated cutscenes and VO.
Okay other Kickstarter project I backed was Shantae: Half-Genie Hero at 250 dollars (I again really wanted a physical artbook) and I'm completely happy on that one!
I just wish that they had reached their goal of having animated cutscenes and VO.
I'm surprised they got away with being funded if the first paragraph above was in the original pitch.
Then again, I guess before they've got funding you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll hire more people...
cartoon_soldier
Member
Nothing, and they should NOT do anything about it.
There is always risk associated with any investment.
LordKasual
Banned
....they used their funding money for the game, to fund something else, that might maybe someday fund the game?
what the fuck?
AtomskEater
Member
Yeah, while there's never a guarantee that Kickstarter projects will come to fruition, but dumping the project and putting the remaining funds into something else is scummy as hell. If you can't complete the project, give backers back whatever you can. I feel like there needs to be a serious penalty for people who outright use the funds for other stuff, although the only thing KS can probably do is just close their account and prevent that person from making any more campaigns.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
I don't think failed projects ruin Kickstarter at all. They show the realities and risks of backing things on the site. People giving money to KS projects should be aware that there is a chance of not receiving anything in return.
Remembrance
Member
The guy in charge seems to be hellbent on going down with the ship, since he has persistently continued to attach his name to every single one of the least flattering updates for this project. One time he invited aggreived backers to go meet him personally to discuss the delays.
And he's still pouring his own money into this, because he thinks somehow this can still get done.
The original Kickstarter page promised that the developers would stake their professional reputations on this project, so I have to assume this guy doesn't actually understand the condition his own reputation is in at this point.
And he's still pouring his own money into this, because he thinks somehow this can still get done.
The original Kickstarter page promised that the developers would stake their professional reputations on this project, so I have to assume this guy doesn't actually understand the condition his own reputation is in at this point.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I'd say there's an important distinction between "failure" and "scam".
That quote never mentions the Kickstarter money, just what they were doing with "the returns from our music business". It's possible by that time they'd already used all the KS money and just didn't have much to show for it.
R_thanatos
Member
So far my kickstarter experience is allright , only 1 game ( out of 13 ) didn't materialise like i expected but it did got a release and everything look on the right course for the unreleased stuff
Project phoenix was the kind of pitch where something was missing .. it was a good pitch but i didn't get excited.. glad i didn't back it.
archreaper93
Member
It's a risk. You could end up with a Mighty No 9, or you could end up with a Shovel Knight. Only you can decide whether you want to risk it or not, and no one should be made to feel bad about whatever choice they make. It's your money in the end.
While I agree these kinds of projects just make it hard for the good ones, the people asking for refunds or whatever fundamentally don't understand or aren't willing to accept what Kickstarter is, which is little more than a middle-man between investors and entrepreneurs, and yes, cases Project Phoenix will happen when you engage in this type of business.
Remembrance
Member
There's fundamentally a wish-fulfillment aspect to Kickstarter. Kickstarter needs the "they said it couldn't be done" projects to drum up the hype.
People have to believe they are literally making the impossible happen by backing, or else the site would be a lot more boring. It's just that it's supposed to be the creators' job to put out the fire when it does turn out to be literally impossible.
I don't think high-profile failures make it harder for good projects. I think it might actually be that projects have gotten more safe and conservative as a reaction to high-profile failures, and now the magic is gone.
I've had a pretty successful track record on Kickstarter. So far I have backed Shadowrun Returns, Wasteland 2, Friday the 13th, and (hopefully) Shenmue 3. I also backed (shudder) Ouya. But I requested my money back because of the delay in shipment. I received my money and they sent me the Ouya anyway. The only one that I backed that didn't get funded was that spiritual successor to Eternal Darkness that Silicon Knights was developing.
Glad I wasn't the only one.
There's zero chance Shenmue III goes like this did for many reasons.
And yes, I will list them all if needed.