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Apple TV |OT| : Page 4
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 05:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kamakazie!

I was in the same position as you (except no Apple ecosystem here) and moved to a FireTV. It's been a great decision with the ability to side load Kodi.
Rock solid, smooth and able to easily handle blu rays. Main downside is no 24p if you tend to notice that a lot.

The new Fire TV OS handles 24p. The beta currently has it implemented, although it's not auto switching at the moment. I also echo your praise in recommending the Fire TV. It's the best box for Kodi if you also use streaming services.

Originally Posted by 404Ender

Still not understanding why you can't just plug your headphones into your TV or receiver? What's the advantage of the port on the Apple TV itself?

The advantage is being able to take 5.1 audio to headphones that support 5.1. If you connect it to the TV or receiver, you're going to lose that since going from HDMI to optical does not maintain the 5.1 audio with the exception of a few TVs that does pass through the bitstream audio.
LostMyNarbles
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(09-10-2015, 05:50 PM)
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Looking at the Roku 3 one disappointment I have to say is that I wish the Apple TV Remote had a headphone jack built into itself. That looks like a nice feature of the Roku Box.
Troy
Banned
(09-10-2015, 05:56 PM)

Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

The new Fire TV OS handles 24p. The beta currently has it implemented, although it's not auto switching at the moment. I also echo your praise in recommending the Fire TV. It's the best box for Kodi if you also use streaming services.



The advantage is being able to take 5.1 audio to headphones that support 5.1. If you connect it to the TV or receiver, you're going to lose that since going from HDMI to optical does not maintain the 5.1 audio with the exception of a few TVs that does pass through the bitstream audio.

Bingo. I'm not willing to give up my 5.1 audio simply because Apple once again cheaped out on ports.

Originally Posted by 404Ender

Still not understanding why you can't just plug your headphones into your TV or receiver? What's the advantage of the port on the Apple TV itself?

Don't have or want a stereo receiver. Everything I use runs video into my monitor via HDMI and then I use a switch for all the optical outs from my devices. The notion that some people have that optical audio is "so year 2000" is utterly ridiculous. There are work-arounds to correct for Apple's cheapness, but the issue I have with that is I have an Apple TV 3 and saw nothing about the new box yesterday that would make me want to pay for extra peripherals on top of paying an extra 100 dollars just to get the upgraded device.
Last edited by Troy; 09-10-2015 at 06:01 PM.
Raistlin
Post Count: 9999
(09-10-2015, 06:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by 404Ender

Complaining that a tiny flick of your thumb is more difficult than pressing a d-pad button is a textbook first world problem. Not to mention you can also just use the touchscreen as a d-pad by tapping instead of swiping.

No, it's textbook overdesign when competitors use a simpler more efficient approach.


Even worse example will be what I brought up above regarding the replay feature. If voice is the only way to use it, it's stupid beyond belief.
Troy
Banned
(09-10-2015, 06:29 PM)

Originally Posted by Raistlin

No, it's textbook overdesign when competitors use a simpler more efficient approach.


Even worse example will be what I brought up above regarding the replay feature. If voice is the only way to use it, it's stupid beyond belief.

I would hope there'd be a gesture on the touchpad to emulate the go-back-10-seconds function of ATV3. If not, you're right, relying solely on voice to do that kind of stuff is moronic.
Raistlin
Post Count: 9999
(09-10-2015, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by DarkChronic

This and the Amazon Fire TV are the two streaming boxes with the most streaming services, correct? The difference being Apple has iTunes, and Amazon has Amazon streaming?

Neither is. That would be Roku.


Now that this has a universal search, I will wait and see what the new Fire TVs can do, and then choose from there.

It works the same on all of them - it's an API the devs need to use. So for the smaller apps/services, it will come down to dev support. Apple has great support with iOS, so assuming it translates to tvOS ... it should be used well here.

Roku has good support due to their position and easy API / dev tools. They have the most apps as part of their universal.

Amazon ... I suspect they'll remain in last place in this regard. At least once tvOS has been given say 6 months to a year to gestate.
giga
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(09-10-2015, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Looks to have potential. Lack of 4K is problematic, but only if they plan to maintain the same upgrade cycle they have in the past. If they are actually moving to annual, or at the very worst bi-annual upgrades, they should be able to bring it when it's needed for a larger chunk of the market.

My biggest question is who's going to make apps for it? Will we see Apple competitors on here? For example, no Vudu and no Amazon would be no buy.



Another side question for me personally is regarding that replay feature. Other competitors have this to some extent (usually app specific), and I love it on my WMC DVR. It is incredibly useful to have the subtitles pop up for a few seconds on a replay.

The thing is all of those devices have a dedicated hard button, which is what makes using the feature so nice. There is no button here. Have they confirmed whether a gesture will active it? If not, "What did she say?" is exactly the sort of over engineering shit people whine about Apple for. Sure it's a nice optional method to do a replay, but if that's the only way it's terrible, over engineered crap. Makes what would be one of this product's best features (assuming it is system-wide) mostly useless in the real world. :

Watch the keynote. You can scrub with touchpad to rewind.
Raistlin
Post Count: 9999
(09-10-2015, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by giga

Watch the keynote. You can scrub with touchpad to rewind.

Rewind, or instant replay? They are very different features.





Originally Posted by HooYaH

Sony's TV lineup this year has a similar remote. I didn't really hear people having problems with it.

Many of Samsung's TVs have had a similar remote. Actually their high-end TV's come with two remotes ... a more standard one with tons of buttons, and a mini one with only the most commonly used features plus the touch pad.


It works okay? It can be a little finicky at times in terms of response. The main issue is even when it isn't being finicky, how usable and efficient it is depends on where in the UI you are.

For example, using it while actually playing a video is generally fine. Well unless you're trying to scrub really far - though Apple has voice commands to aid in skipping around. Where it really gets annoying though is when you're in the main 'grid of icons', or some complex settings menu. At that point it sucks. Basically any time you really need to move around a lot, it just doesn't work as well.

For the most part, I use the main remote or my Harmony.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(09-10-2015, 06:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lynn616

It will need an always listening mic to compete with my Amazon Echo.

not 100% sold on always on. I get what you are saying.. but look at the whole Kinect fiasco on the 360 when it launched.. they could do a hey siri sort of thing.. but even with my iPad and iPhone charging simultaneously, hey siri can get annoying.

I'm guessing always on is trivial, and this was a design choice.. we'll have to see.

Originally Posted by hardcastlemccormick

The downside is that if you have a game over 200MB, you'll never have the full game downloaded. Only chunks and parts, essentially streaming the content as needed.

that's not how it works.. on demand doesn't mean "every run". It just means that devs have to be smart about it. This is something Apple is pushing across the ENTIRE iOS ecosystem.. this is not an "Apple TV" thing.

This is going to be a lot of work for devs and an utter nightmare to debug and test. It has to work seamlessly, and work well even for users with spotty internet. Otherwise, you're forcing your users to wait while the next level is downloaded. It's super risky business and it's definitely putting me off developing a tvOS app.

but devs already have to do this on plenty of other platforms by mandate. PS4, XBONE, Google Play, etc. If anything, apple is behind the times on requiring devs to partition out their app bundles. Also again, you are looking at this as streaming data, which it's really not. I mean it can be if the dev wants it to be.. But this is just splitting out your resources so that a) the app installs quickly initially (think about downloading a 2GB app and then how long it sits in "Preparing"), and b) only the resources that are needed for the downloading device are grabbed, not resources for EVERY device supported.

Honestly, this is a good thing for the OS in general.. The 200MB limit is not being understood here and painting this in a bad light, but it is incorrect. Think of this more like progressive console downloads, combined with only downloading the assets needed for your iPhone, instead of iPhone, Apple TV and iPad, and 1x assets, 2x assets, and 3x assets, for each of those platforms, etc.

The lack of local storage on the device is also a huge limitation. No save files outside of iCloud? That's rough for every app.

I'll have to read this exactly. iCloud by default has local save.. but it's at the whim of the OS (is there space, etc). Also remember that this will only EVER be connected to the internet. well, wifi at least. There is zero functionality on these devices (as has always been the case) without wifi.. so it's even less likely to be without internet/icloud on here than your phone, which is already unlikely with the exception of dead zones and stuff.
CraigMcD
Member
(09-10-2015, 06:44 PM)

Originally Posted by borghe

Old yes. It's just a standard IR remote. New, highly unlikely. It's a bluetooth remote. What remains to be seen is how CEC works. So if I get cursor, menu and select control with my TV remote over CEC, then in theory yes you could do some stuff with it. For example I can press the "Bravia Sync" button on my Sony TV remote to simulate the PS button on my PS4. So yeah.. controlling the ATV directly with Harmony? No chance. Controlling it over CEC from another device (stereo or TV)? We'll have to wait and see.

My Harmony works with Bluetooth devices. It even has a touch screen on it. The Siri and motion control stuff would be a no go, mind.
giga
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(09-10-2015, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Rewind, or instant replay? They are very different features.






Many of Samsung's TVs have had a similar remote. Actually their high-end TV's come with two remotes ... a more standard one with tons of buttons, and a mini one with only the most commonly used features plus the touch pad.


It works okay? It can be a little finicky at times in terms of response. The main issue is even when it isn't being finicky, how usable and efficient it is depends on where in the UI you are.

For example, using it while actually playing a video is generally fine. Well unless you're trying to scrub really far - though Apple has voice commands to aid in skipping around. Where it really gets annoying though is when you're in the main 'grid of icons', or some complex settings menu. At that point it sucks. Basically any time you really need to move around a lot, it just doesn't work as well.

For the most part, I use the main remote or my Harmony.

What's instant rewind?
Raistlin
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(09-10-2015, 06:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

The new Fire TV OS handles 24p. The beta currently has it implemented, although it's not auto switching at the moment. I also echo your praise in recommending the Fire TV. It's the best box for Kodi if you also use streaming services.

Unless something has changed, Fire TV doesn't handle high bitrate MPEG 2 deinterlacing very well.

So while that may be a subset of users, there are plenty of people that use Kodi as a front-end for DVR'd content. With that in mind, I can't really say Fire TV is the best Kodi / streaming box. That would likely go to the nVidia Shield box.

The advantage is being able to take 5.1 audio to headphones that support 5.1. If you connect it to the TV or receiver, you're going to lose that since going from HDMI to optical does not maintain the 5.1 audio with the exception of a few TVs that does pass through the bitstream audio.

Or if you have a TV and receiver that support HDMI ARC, which is now pretty much the norm other than entry-level devices.

Not saying I like Apple's decision here, but at least there are alternatives.
Last edited by Raistlin; 09-10-2015 at 06:49 PM.
Raistlin
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(09-10-2015, 06:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by giga

What's instant rewind?

instant replay


It was shown in the keynote as well. It automatically skips back 15 seconds and turns on subtitles for that duration. It's for situations where you couldn't quite make out what was said.

The issue is they only showed its usage by way of voice command, not using a gesture (and there's no dedicated button). At least not that I saw. The video from the keynote kept dropping intermittently. They demonstrated it by asking Siri, "what did she say?" to activate it.


Some other apps have this feature, and I use it all the time (for example HBO Go apps automatically do this). If you can only activate it by hitting a button and giving a voice command though, that's pretty crap.
Last edited by Raistlin; 09-10-2015 at 06:56 PM.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 06:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Unless something has changed, Fire TV doesn't handle high bitrate MPEG 2 deinterlacing very well.

So while that may be a subset of users, there are plenty of people that use Kodi as a front-end for DVR'd content. With that in mind, I can't really say Fire TV is the best Kodi / streaming box. That would likely go to the nVidia Shield box.

I'm not a fan of Android TV so far from what I've seen of it. What I mean by being the best Kodi / streaming box is the fact that you can integrate the main streaming services into Kodi which no other box does. You can't do it on the Shield TV or Google Nexus Player which is annoying as hell. You make a good point about deinterlacing issues on the Fire TV, but I have to think that the number of people using Kodi as a front end for DVR'd content is in the minority of total users. I could be wrong on that though.

Originally Posted by Raistlin

instant replay


It was shown in the keynote as well. It automatically skips back 15 seconds and turns on subtitles for that duration. It's for situations where you could quite make out what was said. I think it would be neat if you were watching and simply asked Siri what she said without having to do anything but speak.

The issue is they only showed its usage by way of voice command, not using a gesture (and there's no dedicated button). At least not that I saw. The video from the keynote kept dropping intermittently. They demonstrated it by asking Siri, "what did she say?" to activate it.

The big catch, while I think it's a great feature, is that you have to hit a button to activate Siri. It's not just active. So on top of that you have to go grab the remote to do it rather than being in the moment and ask what happened.
xxracerxx
Banned
(09-10-2015, 06:55 PM)
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So here is a dumb question that I could find in two seconds with Google, is Airplay as easy as it sounds? Like can I just mirror my Macbook Air to an Apple TV with no real latency problems? Video/sound?
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 06:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by xxracerxx

So here is a dumb question that I could find in two seconds with Google, is Airplay as easy as it sounds? Like can I just mirror my Macbook Air to an Apple TV with no real latency problems? Video/sound?

It is as easy as it sounds, but there is definitely latency.
xxracerxx
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(09-10-2015, 07:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

It is as easy as it sounds, but there is definitely latency.

So no Risk of Rain over Airplay, but videos are fine?
Troy
Banned
(09-10-2015, 07:00 PM)

Originally Posted by xxracerxx

So here is a dumb question that I could find in two seconds with Google, is Airplay as easy as it sounds? Like can I just mirror my Macbook Air to an Apple TV with no real latency problems? Video/sound?

I've tried for months to get my brand new Macbook Pro to stream properly to my ATV3 and it sucks. Just plain shit. Quick search online showed me tons of people with the same problems. And it's odd because my iPod Touch streams to my ATV3 beautifully without a single issue.
Raistlin
Post Count: 9999
(09-10-2015, 07:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

I'm not a fan of Android TV so far from what I've seen of it. What I mean by being the best Kodi / streaming box is the fact that you can integrate the main streaming services into Kodi which no other box does. You can't do it on the Shield TV or Google Nexus Player which is annoying as hell. You make a good point about deinterlacing issues on the Fire TV, but I have to think that the number of people using Kodi as a front end for DVR'd content is in the minority of total users. I could be wrong on that though.

Isn't that only for modded Fire TV's though, where you've actually installed Kodi as the OS?

While that is a really great feature, isn't it impossible to jailbreak Fire TV's from the last 6+ months? Or has that changed? If not, it's hard to argue superiority on a feature that is no longer available to new users. Similarly, who's to say we won't see other devices get jailbroken, including the Sheild? It's kind of a moving target.


So assuming that isn't really an option and we're simply left to the Kodi app itself - the Fire TV and Shield app is essentially the same. They're both based on the Android app. The difference is, the Shield hardware is better and can handle tougher encodes.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(09-10-2015, 07:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by xxracerxx

So here is a dumb question that I could find in two seconds with Google, is Airplay as easy as it sounds? Like can I just mirror my Macbook Air to an Apple TV with no real latency problems? Video/sound?

MacBook yes. There is some latency.. but for anything other than high res/high frame rate gaming it is generally well passed "good enough". You can also choose either mirror or second display/desktop on Mac.

With iOS it's largely hit, with the occasional miss as a provider ACTIVELY blocks it. Umm.. CBS I believe is one of those... you have to mirror your iPad for example on the CBS app because they block it.. Adult Swim I believe also. But this isn't a limitation.. this is because they're assholes. AirPlay works out of the box using the UIKit display stuff.. So they are intentionally going into their apps and shutting it off (they can't shut off audio.. only video airplay). You can get around the lockouts by mirroring your iOS device, but this can lead to artifacts and latency. Still better than nothing in the case of dick companies like that.

Anywho, audio/video airplay works beautifully and no latency (when not actively blocked). Mirroring is generally not flawless.. but except for extreme cases is generally a lot better than just "good enough".

There's also a third category where app devs can actually airplay content.. like games.. I've only played with this a little but this falls under the first part.. aka works incredibly well mostly. this is different than mirroring and more like the video airplay.. but not a lot of games support this that I'm aware of. I've messed with it very little though.

Originally Posted by Troy

I've tried for months to get my brand new Macbook Pro to stream properly to my ATV3 and it sucks. Just plain shit. Quick search online showed me tons of people with the same problems. And it's odd because my iPod Touch streams to my ATV3 beautifully without a single issue.

hmm.. weird.. my wife's 2014 MacBook Air, my daughter's 2011 MBP, and even my Hackintosh all stream to our ATV3 with no issue.
Last edited by borghe; 09-10-2015 at 07:08 PM.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 07:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Isn't that only for modded Fire TV's though, where you've actually installed Kodi as the OS?

While that is a really great feature, isn't it impossible to jailbreak Fire TV's from the last 6+ months? Or has that changed? If not, it's hard to argue superiority on a feature that is no longer available to new users. Similarly, who's to say we won't see other devices get jailbroken, including the Sheild? It's kind of a moving target.


So assuming that isn't really an option and we're simply left to the Kodi app itself - the Fire TV and Shield app is essentially the same. They're both based on the Android app. The difference is, the Shield hardware is better and can handle tougher encodes.

Nope, It's not a mod or root that allows it to happen. It's simply the Fire TV OS that allows it. You can buy a Fire TV right now and integrate all the streaming services into Kodi. Android TV actively restricts access to apps. The only reason to root is so that the home button takes you directly to Kodi instead of Fire TV OS whenever you hit it. Even that, I think they have gotten around it because I hear people talking about replaced launchers without needing to root. I never explored it further since mine are rooted. Even without root, you could hit back out of an app and it would exit back to Kodi. You could even do a voice search and then when done, hit back and it would bring you back to Kodi. Root only gains you the ability to never have to see the main OS when you hit the home button. So the Fire TV is the only device or platform that allows you to do this which is huge when it comes to ease of use and letting other people go at it. Just like the Harmony simplified my remote setup, this has simplified my TV setup and has actually worked in practice from watching other people use my setup.

Originally Posted by xxracerxx

So no Risk of Rain over Airplay, but videos are fine?

You can play games that don't require a lot of timing, but otherwise it's really best when just pushing something to be shown on the TV. Video, pictures, music, etc.
Last edited by Marty Chinn; 09-10-2015 at 07:12 PM.
404Ender
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(09-10-2015, 07:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

The advantage is being able to take 5.1 audio to headphones that support 5.1. If you connect it to the TV or receiver, you're going to lose that since going from HDMI to optical does not maintain the 5.1 audio with the exception of a few TVs that does pass through the bitstream audio.

Got it, thanks for clarifying. 5.1 audio via headphones seems like a pretty niche use case, but I understand being annoyed if you like it. I'm not surprised most TVs don't pass it through, but pretty shocked that most receivers don't.

Originally Posted by Raistlin

No, it's textbook overdesign when competitors use a simpler more efficient approach.

lol so you're saying tapping a button on a touchscreen is more complicated and less efficient than tapping a physical button? This isn't typing on a keyboard, it's 4 buttons.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 07:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by 404Ender

Got it, thanks for clarifying. 5.1 audio via headphones seems like a pretty niche use case, but I understand being annoyed if you like it. I'm not surprised most TVs don't pass it through, but pretty shocked that most receivers don't.

There's a lot of headphones that support 5.1 though so I'm not sure how niche it is. Most gaming wireless headphones support 5.1 like the Turtle Beach stuff. Then popular manufacturers like Bose have their 5.1 headphones. I'd imagine there are a reasonable enough people that would be affected by this. I've seen enough people talk about or have them that it wouldn't have struck me as odd as there being people upset over the lack of optical. A lot of people were pissed about the Wii U lacking optical. Then again, maybe headphone use in general on a TV is niche too. As for receivers, I can't think of a single one that does it. I have a really high end receiver and it definitely doesn't. There's gotta be a reason why nobody does it though.
Raistlin
Post Count: 9999
(09-10-2015, 07:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

Nope, It's not a mod or root that allows it to happen. It's simply the Fire TV OS that allows it. You can buy a Fire TV right now and integrate all the streaming services into Kodi. Android TV actively restricts access to apps. The only reason to root is so that the home button takes you directly to Kodi instead of Fire TV OS whenever you hit it. Even that, I think they have gotten around it because I hear people talking about replaced launchers without needing to root. I never explored it further since mine are rooted. Even without root, you could hit back out of an app and it would exit back to Kodi. You could even do a voice search and then when done, hit back and it would bring you back to Kodi. Root only gains you the ability to never have to see the main OS when you hit the home button. So the Fire TV is the only device or platform that allows you to do this which is huge when it comes to ease of use and letting other people go at it. Just like the Harmony simplified my remote setup, this has simplified my TV setup and has actually worked in practice from watching other people use my setup.

Ah that's really interesting. Didn't realize you could do app to app communication in that way. I'll have to look into that - quite cool!
Raistlin
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(09-10-2015, 07:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by 404Ender

lol so you're saying tapping a button on a touchscreen is more complicated and less efficient than tapping a physical button? This isn't typing on a keyboard, it's 4 buttons.

You need to press a button and give a voice command.



I have asked in this thread more than once whether it's been confirmed that there is a gesture to do instant replay (not rewind), and so far there's no confirmation. Assuming that's the case, yes it is shitty and makes the feature pretty useless irl.



Actually if that's the case, there may be a bigger problem than initially assumed. Many if not most streaming services will do an instant replay (though without subtitles) by pressing the back button on Roku, Fire TV, etc. If there isn't an easy way to do it, it's a serious limitation of this device. Having to either issue a voice command or always start rewinding or go into the scrub view would be crap. I'd hope Apple isn't this stupid.
Last edited by Raistlin; 09-10-2015 at 07:27 PM.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 07:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Ah that's really interesting. Didn't realize you could do app to app communication in that way. I'll have to look into that - quite cool!

Ya, it blew me away when I first discovered it. I became a huge fan solely because of that functionality since I'd never seen anyone do it before. The Kodi plugins were mediocre at best in usage. I'm really really hopeful that with the new OS, since it's a new version of Android, there will be new exploits that open up to allow rooting again. If not on that, at least new exploits on the new Fire TV that's supposed to be out soon. Add in that 24p is coming, and the number of cons about the Fire TV is starting to go down. Unfortunately, the reality is there is no perfect box that does everything.
404Ender
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(09-10-2015, 07:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raistlin

You need to press a button and give a voice command.



I have asked in this thread more than once whether it's been confirmed that there is a gesture to do instant replay (not rewind), and so far there's no confirmation.

Assuming that's the case, yes it is shitty and makes the feature pretty useless irl.

I think you need to go back and re-read the quote thread. I've talking about navigating menus with a d-pad vs a touch pad that works like the Apple Remote iOS app. Not this instant replay stuff.

Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

As for receivers, I can't think of a single one that does it. I have a really high end receiver and it definitely doesn't. There's gotta be a reason why nobody does it though.

What about the receivers with HDMI ARC that Raistlin mentioned a few posts back?
Last edited by 404Ender; 09-10-2015 at 07:29 PM.
Raistlin
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(09-10-2015, 07:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by 404Ender

I think you need to go back and re-read the quote thread. I've talking about navigating menus with a d-pad vs a touch pad that works like the Apple Remote iOS app. Not this instant replay stuff.

Oh whoops, thought you were replying to the instant replay discussion. I apologize.



In answer to your question, it matters how they implement it. If you can literally tap it as though there is a d-pad (divides the touch surface into quadrants), it may work well other than a higher chance of miss hits (which is invariably true). Still though, that could work well enough.

What won't work well is if they implement it more like that Samsung remote I mentioned that doesn't really do a virtual d-pad and instead requires a bit of a swiping gesture to indicate directionality. No, it does not work very well and is quite inefficient.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 07:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by 404Ender


What about the receivers with HDMI ARC that Raistlin mentioned a few posts back?

HDMI ARC is just bi-directional flow of data. Normal HDMI goes Source to Destination. HDMI ARC can go either direction from the two attached devices. It wouldn't solve the headphone problem needing optical unless I'm missing something on how you'd utilize it.
Troy
Banned
(09-10-2015, 07:42 PM)

Originally Posted by 404Ender

Got it, thanks for clarifying. 5.1 audio via headphones seems like a pretty niche use case, but I understand being annoyed if you like it. I'm not surprised most TVs don't pass it through, but pretty shocked that most receivers don't.



lol so you're saying tapping a button on a touchscreen is more complicated and less efficient than tapping a physical button? This isn't typing on a keyboard, it's 4 buttons.

Headphones are definitely not a niche device.
Lynn616
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(09-10-2015, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by borghe

not 100% sold on always on. I get what you are saying.. but look at the whole Kinect fiasco on the 360 when it launched.. they could do a hey siri sort of thing.. but even with my iPad and iPhone charging simultaneously, hey siri can get annoying.

I'm guessing always on is trivial, and this was a design choice.. we'll have to see.

It needs to be always listening for the smart home stuff to work right. If I have to walk over and find the remote then say "turn on light" I might as well have walked to the light and turned it on. Much better to have it always listening.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Troy

Headphones are definitely not a niche device.

I think he's saying 5.1 headphones are a niche device. I'm not sure if that's true or not. I wouldn't think so from how much exposure I see of them, but they very well could be when you look at the sales numbers.

Originally Posted by borghe

not 100% sold on always on. I get what you are saying.. but look at the whole Kinect fiasco on the 360 when it launched.. they could do a hey siri sort of thing.. but even with my iPad and iPhone charging simultaneously, hey siri can get annoying.

The multiple device thing is trivial; just let you select what the activation phrase is. I'm totally sold on always on though after using an Amazon Echo for half a year now. It's just super convenient and useful that I don't have to do anything to activate it except speak to it and I can activate it from anywhere. I'm surprised nobody is copying Amazon at this point with a stationary device.
Last edited by Marty Chinn; 09-10-2015 at 07:49 PM.
Troy
Banned
(09-10-2015, 07:49 PM)

Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

I think he's saying 5.1 headphones are a niche device. I'm not sure if that's true or not. I wouldn't think so from how much exposure I see of them, but they very well could be when you look at the sales numbers.

Even some Turtle Beach headphones that output stereo only do it via optical. It's not by any means a dead/outdated output, which is why it's so weird/pathetic that Apple removed the port. Most likely did it once again simply to maximize profit to the detriment of function.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 07:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Troy

Even some Turtle Beach headphones that output stereo only do it via optical. It's not by any means a dead/outdated output, which is why it's so weird/pathetic that Apple removed the port. Most likely did it once again simply to maximize profit to the detriment of function.

I don't disagree, but I think he's also saying at that point why not hook the headphones up to the TV output or the receiver output rather than directly to the device.
BlastProcessing
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(09-10-2015, 07:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by borghe

not 100% sold on always on. I get what you are saying.. but look at the whole Kinect fiasco on the 360 when it launched.. they could do a hey siri sort of thing.. but even with my iPad and iPhone charging simultaneously, hey siri can get annoying.

I'm guessing always on is trivial, and this was a design choice.. we'll have to see.


that's not how it works.. on demand doesn't mean "every run". It just means that devs have to be smart about it. This is something Apple is pushing across the ENTIRE iOS ecosystem.. this is not an "Apple TV" thing.


but devs already have to do this on plenty of other platforms by mandate. PS4, XBONE, Google Play, etc. If anything, apple is behind the times on requiring devs to partition out their app bundles. Also again, you are looking at this as streaming data, which it's really not. I mean it can be if the dev wants it to be.. But this is just splitting out your resources so that a) the app installs quickly initially (think about downloading a 2GB app and then how long it sits in "Preparing"), and b) only the resources that are needed for the downloading device are grabbed, not resources for EVERY device supported.

Honestly, this is a good thing for the OS in general.. The 200MB limit is not being understood here and painting this in a bad light, but it is incorrect. Think of this more like progressive console downloads, combined with only downloading the assets needed for your iPhone, instead of iPhone, Apple TV and iPad, and 1x assets, 2x assets, and 3x assets, for each of those platforms, etc.


I'll have to read this exactly. iCloud by default has local save.. but it's at the whim of the OS (is there space, etc). Also remember that this will only EVER be connected to the internet. well, wifi at least. There is zero functionality on these devices (as has always been the case) without wifi.. so it's even less likely to be without internet/icloud on here than your phone, which is already unlikely with the exception of dead zones and stuff.

Always listening needs a much better microphone setup then press to talk. The reason the Echo works so well is that it has a 7 mic array. I think having it on the mic is a much cheaper/simpler way to get consistent performance.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(09-10-2015, 08:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

There's a lot of headphones that support 5.1 though so I'm not sure how niche it is. Most gaming wireless headphones support 5.1 like the Turtle Beach stuff. Then popular manufacturers like Bose have their 5.1 headphones. I'd imagine there are a reasonable enough people that would be affected by this. I've seen enough people talk about or have them that it wouldn't have struck me as odd as there being people upset over the lack of optical. A lot of people were pissed about the Wii U lacking optical. Then again, maybe headphone use in general on a TV is niche too. As for receivers, I can't think of a single one that does it. I have a really high end receiver and it definitely doesn't. There's gotta be a reason why nobody does it though.

not niche, but old, limited and needs to go away. people kicked and screamed at losing 3.5" floppies, printer ports, serial ports, etc. hell even a lot kicked and screamed at losing s-video for older high-end players, etc.

that so many companies have continued to emphasize it over HDMI is idiotic and was ALWAYS destined to blow up in the consumers' faces.. but hey, the companies already saw the money so what do they care!!!

my point being apple is not the one in the wrong here.. and including it just perpetuates a reliance on outdated connectors. Someone needed to make the stand and clearly the headphone/soundbar manufacturers weren't going to do it. Sony made the same stand and consumers are enjoying their PS4s just fine. Even if you are affected, there are still options out there, including options leaving the 5.1DD stream intact.
Last edited by borghe; 09-10-2015 at 08:27 PM.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 08:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by borghe

not niche, but old, limited and needs to go away. people kicked and screamed at losing 3.5" floppies, printer ports, serial ports, etc. hell even a lot kicked and screamed at losing s-video for older high-end players, etc.

that so many companies have continued to emphasize it over HDMI is idiotic and was ALWAYS destined to blow up in the consumers' faces.. but hey, the companies already saw the money so what do they care!!!

my point being apple is not the one in the wrong here.. and including it just perpetuates a reliance on outdated connectors. Someone needed to make the stand and clearly the headphone/soundbar manufacturers weren't going to do it. Sony made the same stand and consumers are enjoying their PS4s just fine. Even if you are affected, there are still options out there, including options leaving the 5.1DD stream intact.

What? PS4s have optical output.

Also, claiming consumers are in the wrong because they don't want to throw out perfectly functional hardware seems like the wrong message/stance to take. There are a lot of devices and things that people aren't constantly upgrading. I can easily see headphones being in that category. The options you speak of all cost money. Telling someone they have to pay extra to keep the same functionality is also something that's going to rub people the wrong way. HDMI to optical converters aren't cheap either. Not everyone likes to be on the cutting edge either. There are plenty of things that it would be nice if people just all paid out of there wallet where we'd get better things, but we know that doesn't happen.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(09-10-2015, 08:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

What? PS4s have optical output.

Also, claiming consumers are in the wrong because they don't want to throw out perfectly functional hardware seems like the wrong message/stance to take. There are a lot of devices and things that people aren't constantly upgrading. I can easily see headphones being in that category. The options you speak of all cost money. Telling someone they have to pay extra to keep the same functionality is also something that's going to rub people the wrong way. HDMI to optical converters aren't cheap either. Not everyone likes to be on the cutting edge either. There are plenty of things that it would be nice if people just all paid out of there wallet where we'd get better things, but we know that doesn't happen.

I didn't say consumers are in the wrong. I said specifically that the manufacturers were in the wrong and the result is that the consumers would eventually be fucked over as they were forced kicking and screaming into a world that would eventually leave behind the connector.. which is what's happening.

I thought it was PS4. I know Wii U doesn't have toslink.. I am positive there was another high profile device recently that omitted optical also.

eventually people who relied on optical will be left out in the cold. the same with any other obsoleted tech. that it turned into a game of chicken for this long is unfortunate.
Raistlin
Post Count: 9999
(09-10-2015, 08:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

I think he's saying 5.1 headphones are a niche device. I'm not sure if that's true or not. I wouldn't think so from how much exposure I see of them, but they very well could be when you look at the sales numbers.

To my knowledge, the main community is for console / PC gamers. There isn't a large media community for it, at least judging by places like AVS, etc.




Originally Posted by Troy

Even some Turtle Beach headphones that output stereo only do it via optical. It's not by any means a dead/outdated output, which is why it's so weird/pathetic that Apple removed the port. Most likely did it once again simply to maximize profit to the detriment of function.

To be fair, most set-top boxes have removed them. Even Roku. And new devices like the nVidia Shield TV doesn't have it iirc. Fire TV is actually a bit of an outlier here.




Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

HDMI ARC is just bi-directional flow of data. Normal HDMI goes Source to Destination. HDMI ARC can go either direction from the two attached devices. It wouldn't solve the headphone problem needing optical unless I'm missing something on how you'd utilize it.

It won't, but as mentioned above ... it appears CE manufacturers are moving away from optical. So seemingly the only thing to do is get a receiver that has Dolby Headphone (or whichever decoder you like).

The only alternative is to upgrade to an outboard decoder that supports HDMI, but the few I've seen are expensive. Sony has one that does HDMI passthrough and will even decode Dolby True HD for headphones ... but it's hella expensive.
Troy
Banned
(09-10-2015, 08:56 PM)

Originally Posted by borghe

I didn't say consumers are in the wrong. I said specifically that the manufacturers were in the wrong and the result is that the consumers would eventually be fucked over as they were forced kicking and screaming into a world that would eventually leave behind the connector.. which is what's happening.

I thought it was PS4. I know Wii U doesn't have toslink.. I am positive there was another high profile device recently that omitted optical also.

eventually people who relied on optical will be left out in the cold. the same with any other obsoleted tech. that it turned into a game of chicken for this long is unfortunate.

Wii U doesn't have one for the same reason Wii wasn't HD. Nintendo are dopes.
Meus Renaissance
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(09-10-2015, 09:01 PM)
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Honestly, they could have released the old box with Siri support and kept it $99. it would have been a great seller. But its twice the cost now with no 4K support and entirely reliant on subscriptions.

It makes it a difficult purchase.
giga
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(09-10-2015, 09:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Meus Renaissance

Honestly, they could have released the old box with Siri support and kept it $99. it would have been a great seller. But its twice the cost now with no 4K support and entirely reliant on subscriptions.

It makes it a difficult purchase.

I doubt that old hardware could handle tvOS.
Raistlin
Post Count: 9999
(09-10-2015, 09:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by borghe

not niche, but old, limited and needs to go away. people kicked and screamed at losing 3.5" floppies, printer ports, serial ports, etc. hell even a lot kicked and screamed at losing s-video for older high-end players, etc.

that so many companies have continued to emphasize it over HDMI is idiotic and was ALWAYS destined to blow up in the consumers' faces.. but hey, the companies already saw the money so what do they care!!!

my point being apple is not the one in the wrong here.. and including it just perpetuates a reliance on outdated connectors. Someone needed to make the stand and clearly the headphone/soundbar manufacturers weren't going to do it. Sony made the same stand and consumers are enjoying their PS4s just fine. Even if you are affected, there are still options out there, including options leaving the 5.1DD stream intact.

While I get what you're saying, you're oversimplifying the impact and the reasons for peoples' ire.

There isn't an apples-to-apples upgrade path here. You need a new receiver supporting Dolby Headphone or whichever decoder you like (and potentially a TV with ARC if you directly hook up that way for latency issues). That's obviously way more than stuff like the Turtle Beach DSS. The other option is an external box that has HDMI passthrough and decoding. While on its surface that is analogous to stuff like the DSS, the problem is there are only a handful of such devices and they are several hundred dollars.

At least in this situation, it's not really as simple or cheap as 'go out and buy this year's model of headphone decoder'.
Marty Chinn
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(09-10-2015, 09:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by giga

I doubt that old hardware could handle tvOS.

What is TV OS doing that's so demanding? It largely looks the same. Is it just the level of translucent layers now that would be demanding on the GPU? Siri's processing is done on back end servers.
404Ender
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(09-10-2015, 09:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raistlin

To my knowledge, the main community is for console / PC gamers. There isn't a large media community for it, at least judging by places like AVS, etc.

To be fair, most set-top boxes have removed them. Even Roku. And new devices like the nVidia Shield TV doesn't have it iirc. Fire TV is actually a bit of an outlier here.

Yep to all of this. 5.1 surround headphones hooked up to TV device is simply not at all a popular / common use case. People on NeoGAF tend to have this inflated idea of how many people use these types of features because it's a gaming forum full of tech savvy individuals, and we all probably hang out with a similar crowd IRL.

The idea that Apple left out optical because they're "too cheap" is hilarious. As if they care about the tiny extra percentage the port would cost. They most likely did market research within their target audience and realized the optical out would barely be used, if at all, so they cut it out. People playing Rayman or watching movies/TV aren't heavy users of 5.1 headphones. This isn't a hardcore gaming device.

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Oh whoops, thought you were replying to the instant replay discussion. I apologize.

In answer to your question, it matters how they implement it. If you can literally tap it as though there is a d-pad (divides the touch surface into quadrants), it may work well other than a higher chance of miss hits (which is invariably true). Still though, that could work well enough.

What won't work well is if they implement it more like that Samsung remote I mentioned that doesn't really do a virtual d-pad and instead requires a bit of a swiping gesture to indicate directionality. No, it does not work very well and is quite inefficient.

No worries, can be hard to follow when jumping between multiple chains and posters.

The official Remote app works in both ways that you describe. Tapping a virtual d-pad is an option, and so are small swipes. Personally, I like the latter method, and I've always found it very easy to use. That way I don't have to worry about hitting targets -- I can make small swipes anywhere on my phone's surface in the correct direction. My guess is they'll use a similar setup natively on the remote touchpad, but we'll have to wait and see.
Last edited by 404Ender; 09-10-2015 at 09:34 PM.
giga
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(09-10-2015, 09:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marty Chinn

What is TV OS doing that's so demanding? It largely looks the same. Is it just the level of translucent layers now that would be demanding on the GPU? Siri's processing is done on back end servers.

Yes it looks very gpu intensive and it also seems to run more things in the background when watching the demo person switch between different apps and all of them were cached and loaded instantly.
Mr. Wonderful
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(09-10-2015, 11:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Troy

If they wanted me to buy one they wouldn't have been idiots and removed the optical out. There's too many other (cheaper) options out there for me to waste time on a device that I can't simply plug my A50s into.

You care so much about sound, yet don't care that the AppleTV isn't capable of outputting the native 44.1kHz of music recordings, and converts to 48kHz, introducing artifacts which are then upconverted and amplified by your DAC/AV Receiver? That sound quality, though bro.
dallow_bg
nods at old men
(09-11-2015, 01:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wonderful

You care so much about sound, yet don't care that the AppleTV isn't capable of outputting the native 44.1kHz of music recordings, and converts to 48kHz, introducing artifacts which are then upconverted and amplified by your DAC/AV Receiver? That sound quality, though bro.

This is one of the weakest come backs I've ever read. And so arrogant too. Who said he was looking for 100% digital audio end to end reproduction? He wants to get 5.1 sound.

Besides that, modern conversion from 44.1 to 48 isn't going to be noticeable to 99% of people. Hasn't been for years.


In the end though, he's just trying to listen to sound with his headphones. Lots of people are.
badcrumble
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(09-11-2015, 01:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by xxracerxx

So here is a dumb question that I could find in two seconds with Google, is Airplay as easy as it sounds? Like can I just mirror my Macbook Air to an Apple TV with no real latency problems? Video/sound?

Mirroring an actual full device (especially if it's a Mac) involves latency, but anything that can cache ahead (audio and video files) will do so and ought to play perfectly well if your network doesn't shit the bed at any point.
Troy
Banned
(09-11-2015, 02:30 AM)

Originally Posted by Mr. Wonderful

You care so much about sound, yet don't care that the AppleTV isn't capable of outputting the native 44.1kHz of music recordings, and converts to 48kHz, introducing artifacts which are then upconverted and amplified by your DAC/AV Receiver? That sound quality, though bro.

I don't use my Apple TV for music or use a receiver...bro.

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