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lostinblue · Jul 3, 2012

schuelma said:
2- Take Two's public comments basically said no to Rockstar on Wii U

No, they said shovelware and casual crap yes, actual "games" no. There was Rockstar on wii, Table Tennis; casual game. (we'll to be fair also a late Bully port and censored Manhunt 2)

"If" Rockstar does shovelware or minigames Take2 will dump it on us, no doubt.

schuelma said:
3- EA is at best taking a wait and see attitude

EA is going for it, they are always going for anything. Also ME3.

schuelma said:
4- ShockingAlberto, regular contributor to this thread and credible poster, has basically said 3rd party support for the PS4/720 projects is not looking very good.

The usual; I suspect it wouldn't be too hot even if the platform was a powerhouse, Nintendo can't win when there's so many preconceptions going around, and so little will to get out on a good footing on the platform.

Every time a generation ends they're all spelling doom and gloom again for Nintendo too, like we've seen with 3DS despite a good track record that suffered a lot more from expectations than Vita originally did; also the wii u. One day they'll be right, for they always bet on the same thing (and certainly don't help it to succeed).

Not only that, some of them are also predicting this to be the last generation, ever. *shakes head*

shinra-bansho · Jul 3, 2012

filler said:
I think people are really underestimating the Wii brand. I see the Wii U being the most sought after piece of consumer electronics this holiday season. It'll get sold out quickly and you'll have many people paying way too much for it online. I imagine it'll continue with strong sales after the holidays as well, stealing away sales from ps3 and 360.

I'm sure similar things were said about the PlayStation brand circa 2006.

I think others have said, and I agree that, Live will have more of a carryover effect than any particular platform brand loyalty.

schuelma · Jul 3, 2012

lostinblue said:
EA is going for it, they are always going for anything. Also ME3..

Going by their public comments, the sort of known launch lineup (ME3 and a "few" more titles), plus Alberto reporting that a PS4/720 project was already shelved for Wii U..I do not feel at all optimistic.

schuelma · Jul 3, 2012

shinra-bansho said:
I'm sure similar things were said about the PlayStation brand circa 2006.
.

If Sony had priced the PS3 at $300/400 it would have been a completely different story.

Shin Johnpv · Jul 3, 2012

lostinblue said:
That's true, but there's a problem to it; initial investment needed is a little bit too much; might turn the next Gamecube–GBA link cable; initial investment to have a full room of players wrecked it.

I mean, 4 wiimotes? (I only have 3 and I've had a wii since launch) They ought to do a bigger push for online and let you host a online room (host=screen controller) or go play on someone's hosted room; random matching mode or something.

I think you're highly under estimating how many wiimotes are out in the wild. Plus not every game requires 4 Wiimotes. Plus a GBA was like 100 + dollars, a wiimote runs 20 - 40 bucks, depending on with m+ or not. You could get 4 Wiimotes for what 1 GBA and cable cost you.

shinra-bansho · Jul 3, 2012

schuelma said:
If Sony had priced the PS3 at $300/400 it would have been a completely different story.

Perhaps.

The Wii would have still come out of left field; and Microsoft would have still made its overtures towards third-parties to cement itself in the public eye. Ergo, I still don't think they would have achieved the success that people were expecting after the PS2.

The overarching moral I think, is that brand, in itself, without some sort of vested interest on the consumer side - some sort of vendor lock-in effect, like Live has for example - can count for naught.

lostinblue · Jul 3, 2012

schuelma said:
Going by their public comments, the sort of known launch lineup (ME3 and a "few" more titles), plus Alberto reporting that a PS4/720 project was already shelved for Wii U..I do not feel at all optimistic.

Yes, you're right, but EA always supports platforms accordingly. Might not be much, but I'm sure they will support it in a consistent way.

I bet we're gonna see Fifa on it well before PES for instance.

Terrell · Jul 3, 2012

shinra-bansho said:
I'm sure similar things were said about the PlayStation brand circa 2006.

I think others have said, and I agree that, Live will have more of a carryover effect than any particular platform brand loyalty.

Network services don't have the kind of user retention that people seem to think they do. Facebook is still here because Google totally flubbed their introduction of G+, plain and simple.

Meelow · Jul 3, 2012

schuelma said:
Going by their public comments, the sort of known launch lineup (ME3 and a "few" more titles), plus Alberto reporting that a PS4/720 project was already shelved for Wii U..I do not feel at all optimistic.

If what Alberto said is true, that doesn't mean that is going to happen with lots of games like what happened with the Wii.

filler · Jul 3, 2012

shinra-bansho said:
I'm sure similar things were said about the PlayStation brand circa 2006.

I think others have said, and I agree that, Live will have more of a carryover effect than any particular platform brand loyalty.

Sony fucked up by not being able to meet demand at all, they also put out a 600 dollar console, then continued fucking up from there. Even with all that, they've still managed to sell a lot of ps3's.

We already know the Wii U isn't going to be too pricey, so it's really just up to Nintendo to meet demand. If they can supply enough, they'll probably break all previous launch sales records.

lostinblue · Jul 3, 2012

Shin Johnpv said:
I think you're highly under estimating how many wiimotes are out in the wild. Plus not every game requires 4 Wiimotes.

I know, there's the shuriken game that requires none, luigi can use up to 4, animal crossing too, and Zelda uses two.

But point stands, nintendo of all brands had to make the bigger push for online, and so Nintendo land should have a robust online mode, also as a way to get the online community out of the ground for the platform, on a software piece everyone knows and owns.

Pikmin having no online is perfectly forgivable (I don't even give a crap about online 99% of the time); New Mario Bros and Nintendo Land not so much, they should be poster childs of how Nintendo is embracing online this time around.

lostinblue · Jul 3, 2012

filler said:
Sony fucked up by not being able to meet demand at all, they also put out a 600 dollar console, then continued fucking up from there. Even with all that, they've still managed to sell a lot of ps3's.

PS3 stock was enough for say, US, I recall just after launch how the stock was just there, people were surprised, it wasn't selling.

I used to use IRC back then (I'm from Europe) and being surprised just like everybody else by lots of people claiming the same thing, people from different states too.

Of course that started a pattern, the snowball effect that helped Nintendo didn't make them any favours.

HeroR · Jul 3, 2012

shinra-bansho said:
I highly doubt anyone on Neogaf would be satisfied with a catalog of good games, if those games were all party, dance/music, minigame and sports titles. But I may be wrong.
What GTAIV did was cement the idea in people's minds that the XBOX 360 would receive third-party games. It was a major coup for Peter Moore. Same thing goes for FFXIII. It wasn't a system seller for the 360 per se, but it further consolidated the idea that the 360 is the home of multiplatform. I would wager not a single person here doubts that the XBOX 720 will receive pretty much every multiplatform game.

And CoD sells 360s, I don't know how or why anyone would dispute this.
The industry is currently chasing the "casual" dollar on mobile platforms and Facebook.

Neogaf hardly represents the majority opinion. We are just the majority opinion. If we were the majority games like Wii Fit would not have sold 40 million units and Mario Galaxy 1&2 would had should more than just 16 million together given how much people praised the game on here. As for GTA4, if you look at the NPD it sold very well, but it didn't push unit and didn't sell as much as people expected overall. GTA actually sold better as a PS2 exclusive that it did on two user base. FFXIII was a disappointed in sells for the time Square put in and is considered weaker than the PS1 and PS2 games. Even with the all the support the 360 had it didn't become the market leader nor did the game that supported it do better than what they did on the PS1 PS2. CoD sells the 360 somewhat, but it is not the system booster like a lot of the Wii games and even some casual outings.

As for the casual market, the phone market is not the same as the DS or Wii casual games. Most phone games are shallow and while most of the casual games Nintendo make do have hidden debt and the polish that Nintendo known for. They are not shovelware games.

ASIS · Jul 3, 2012

I've been thinking about a concept for quite a while now since I saw the WiiU controller and I thought its time to share it with you guys.

Well, basically, I think the main reason why cinematic games are disfavored in this forum is because they take away control from the player in order to pull off these scripted scenes. But I think with the second screen the player could see what exactly is going on while the main screen is doing all the dynamic direction. The Upad would be placed in front of you, or atleast in a place where you could see both it and the main screen at once without the need to shift your eyes, and the main control will come from the Wii Remote + nunchuck. That way you can see everything and act upon it accordingly.

I have no idea how plausible this idea is, or if it can be evolved into something else, but what do you guys think?

Its very late right now so if you want me to elaborate I'll do that tomorrow

.

AzaK · Jul 3, 2012

Shin Johnpv said:
I really don't think it will. I've played a couple of the games from it, and there are some of that really simple just swipe your finger, or just do this simple action type stuff. The key thing though is it is INSANELY fun with a group of people. That's part of what made Wii Sports such a hit. You got every one involved. I'm telling you Nintendo Land has that in spades. Plus it uses a ton of motion control stuff. The Zelda game in it, you have 2 people using the Wiimotes like swords, and one person using the Wii-U Pad as a bow and arrow simply by looking at the screen and turning around. There's nothing "game-game" about that. It takes all of 5 seconds to understand what you're doing.

I'm telling you Nintendo Land is Wii Sports to the next level. If Nintendo gets people to play the game, specially in multiplayer groups, its a hit. It uses so many of those motion control type things that made it easy for non-gamers to get into Wii-sports and incorporates it into deeper gameplay.

I was fully and totally meh to the game, and thought Nintendo were wasting their time with it during and after E3. Then I played a bunch of the games on it last weekend, completely changed my mind on it.

I hope your right, but sports is very much a universal thing. Zelda sword swinging and rolling down a DonkeyKong level isn't so I'm not convinced.

The hurdle will be getting people to play it. Once that's overcome I do think it looks like a LOT of fun and can really see people getting into it.

schuelma said:
If Sony had priced the PS3 at $300/400 it would have been a completely different story.

They would have been bankrupt

Terrell said:
Network services don't have the kind of user retention that people seem to think they do. Facebook is still here because Google totally flubbed their introduction of G+, plain and simple.

Don't underestimate the MASSIVE pull Facebook has just by being the biggest. Why try and go to another system when all your friends and family are on Facebook? Just moving yourself defeats the purpose of a social system of noone else you know is there.

lostinblue · Jul 3, 2012

Nintendo-4Life said:
I've been thinking about a concept for quite a while now since I saw the WiiU controller and I thought its time to share it with you guys.

Well, basically, I think the main reason why cinematic games are disfavored in this forum is because they take away control from the player in order to pull off these scripted scenes. But I think with the second screen the player could see what exactly is going on while the main screen is doing all the dynamic direction. The Upad would be placed in front of you, or atleast in a place where you could see both it and the main screen at once without the need to shift your eyes, and the main control will come from the Wii Remote + nunchuck. That way you can see everything and act upon it accordingly.

I have no idea how plausible this idea is, or if it can be evolved into something else, but what do you guys think?

Its very late right now so if you want me to elaborate I'll do that tomorrow .

You mean like in a timed "mission" where they're, for instance gonna kill someone or you're supposed to intercept them, the main screen showing that cutscene (until it progresses to a game over) and the controller screen being the gameplay part for changing that from a gameover into something else? Like an evolved QTE with actual gameplay?

Seems really clever actually; I can picture something like this perfect dark level (around the 1 minute mark) could work well with an idea like that.

Then again it'll probably take a while until some third party attempts to do something like that, such game would need to be exclusive after all, and Nintendo is not all that cinematic so... I would probably take a third party game to chart those waters.

ASIS · Jul 3, 2012

lostinblue said:
You mean like in a timed "mission" where they're, for instance gonna kill someone or you're supposed to intercept them, the main screen showing that cutscene and the controller screen being the gameplay part for changing that from a gameover into something else?

Seems really clever actually; I can picture something like this perfect dark level (around the 1 minute mark) would work well with an idea like that.

That was one of the ideas, the other one is actually uncharted inspired

When Kid Nathan Drake was escaping and people would be chasing him left and right. It was an intense moment but was full of times where you just wished the camera would be better placed.

With the WiiU pad, you have direct control over kid nathan all the time with the camera being fit for actually playing the game and seeing everything needed to see, and the main screen will show the "cutscene" parts with all the cool effects, hell they could even take the action off of drake and show where the people are coming for the able to predict where and when they are going to show up so he or she could act accordingly.

I dunno, just something that crossed my head for a very long time and I just want to get it off

shinra-bansho · Jul 3, 2012

Terrell said:
Network services don't have the kind of user retention that people seem to think they do. Facebook is still here because Google totally flubbed their introduction of G+, plain and simple.

Facebook is still here because the (improved) value proposition offered by G+, if any, wasn't sufficient to overcome barriers to switching.

Migrating from Live doesn't just present social costs, there's also significant monetary investment in Live accounts through XBLA. Being free isn't enough for a comparable service (PSN) right now either.

HeroR said:
Neogaf hardly represents the majority opinion. We are just the majority opinion. If we were the majority games like Wii Fit would not have sold 40 million units and Mario Galaxy 1&2 would had should more than just 16 million together given how much people praised the game on here. As for GTA4, if you look at the NPD it sold very well, but it didn't push unit and didn't sell as much as people expected overall. GTA actually sold better as a PS2 exclusive that it did on two user base. FFXIII was a disappointed in sells for the time Square put in and is considered weaker than the PS1 and PS2 games. Even with the all the support the 360 had it didn't become the market leader nor did the game that supported it do better than what they did on the PS1 PS2. CoD sells the 360 somewhat, but it is not the system booster like a lot of the Wii games and even some casual outings.

As for the casual market, the phone market is not the same as the DS or Wii casual games. Most phone games are shallow and while most of the casual games Nintendo make do have hidden debt and the polish that Nintendo known for. They are not shovelware games.

Collectively the PS3 and 360 constitute the majority of the market. Although I don't dispute that the casual market constitutes a large market. I was just pointing out the idea of a console that only served up those genres of games, would be viewed as a severe disappointment here.

As for the third party games - you missed my point, it wasn't about each game being a particular system seller, the overtures to third party were about consumer mindshare. The investment in Kinect, likewise. The 360 is the current market leader, while not cumulatively, and has made massive strides from the OG XBOX.

Again, is there doubt in anyone's mind that the 720 will receive multiplatform games? Now ask the same question of the Wii U.

As for the (smart)phone/tablet market being a distinct market, with no overlap to the DS or Wii - I'd dispute that, the western handheld market has already shown decay. And "shallow" though they may (or may not) be, they may be enough to satisfy the gaming needs of that demographic.

Daknight · Jul 3, 2012

Nintendo-4Life said:
I've been thinking about a concept for quite a while now since I saw the WiiU controller and I thought its time to share it with you guys.

Well, basically, I think the main reason why cinematic games are disfavored in this forum is because they take away control from the player in order to pull off these scripted scenes. But I think with the second screen the player could see what exactly is going on while the main screen is doing all the dynamic direction. The Upad would be placed in front of you, or atleast in a place where you could see both it and the main screen at once without the need to shift your eyes, and the main control will come from the Wii Remote + nunchuck. That way you can see everything and act upon it accordingly.

I have no idea how plausible this idea is, or if it can be evolved into something else, but what do you guys think?

Its very late right now so if you want me to elaborate I'll do that tomorrow .

The first thing that came to mind was Kid Icarus. The 'talking' and 'scenes' are all play on the bottom screen while the game is still playing so there is no break in the action to introduce a character or explain something since is simultaneous while you are playing.

Of course they aren't as elaborate and is mostly just talking with a static image of the character who is speaking, but I found it refreshing take on 'cutscenes' in some way.

Your idea sound similar to that, but I am not sure how they could pull it of with an elaborate scene from a game like Xenoblade. But it could be interesting that while you are walking during a place, you suddenly see a scene of events happening in another place.

Example:

You are walking toward a town, walking, say a forest for example. Suddenly in the bottom screen a scene start to play were you see the town being attack, but you are still playing on the top screen and maybe feel more desperate to GET to the town as you are seeing what is going on. Enemies attacking, buildings being destoryed people dying waiting for the 'heroes' to arrive. Meanwhile you are running thru the forest fighting monster going as fast as you can to get there to stop this attack.

I think this would solve an issue I find RPGs have. In most RPG you might be in a desperate moment in the story that you NEED to get somewhere FAST to save someone or someplace...but there is really no sense of urgency since you can go anywhere and take your sweet time to get there since nothing will happen till you GET there. Now if suddenly you see the attack starting to take place since you took TOO long to bother getting to the town (and assuming this event STAY as it played out int eh scene, this means that if someone dies, he isn't simple replace by another NPC) it would add to this moments that are suppose to be tense moments in games.

So yeah...your idea is actually pretty good and can apply to different scenes now that I put my mind into it.

chris3116 · Jul 3, 2012

I don't know if it was posted according to this : http://www.vandal.net/reportaje/las-novedades-de-pro-evolution-soccer-2013/2

A Pro Evolution Soccer game is coming to Wii U but they are working first on Sony and Microsoft versions first. My spanish is not very good but I think that's what it said.

I'd like to try a Playmaker version on Wii U. I heard good things on Wii for the Playmaker versions. And I think with the screen, it could be an evolution.

lostinblue · Jul 3, 2012

Nintendo-4Life said:
That was one of the ideas, the other one is actually uncharted inspired When Kid Nathan Drake was escaping and people would be chasing him left and right. It was an intense moment but was full of times where you just wished the camera would be better placed.

With the WiiU pad, you have direct control over kid nathan all the time with the camera being fit for actually playing the game and seeing everything needed to see, and the main screen will show the "cutscene" parts with all the cool effects, hell they could even take the action off of drake and show where the people are coming for the able to predict where and when they are going to show up so he or she could act accordingly.

I dunno, just something that crossed my head for a very long time and I just want to get it off

Well a game made out of such interactions could feel really fresh and cinematic, for sure.

Rendering from the same scene from two cameras is certainly feasible albeit with hit, has been done since the first 3D console's with split screen modes and 3D games also render a second view point. I believe ZombiU when using the controller screen for camera purposes also changes the viewpoint slightly?

You could also have a cutscene taking part like it usually does, and have the controller always showing your current point of view and nothing more, with the gyroscopes though you could move your head about and focus on certain things, perhaps as part of the gameplay, for instance if you focused too much time on a painting on the wall the character talking to you could remark "oh that? it's a replica from a famous painting by Klimt", yes how I love my graphical adventures of old.

Could be used in some really clever ways, I just remembered there was a multiplayer game on game & wario that can be played without extra controllers which is a "catch the thief" game, the controller controls the thief on a fixed camera point of a city with lots of bystanders and cars going by, and you have to somehow pinpoint who the thief was in the end. Now don't ask me how my mind works but the concept of following the main screen to discover what's going about on the other inspired my next thought:

Something like seeing some guy is holding a knife on one of his hands on a TV cutscene before he stabs you out of nowhere and having to guess with the controller (that only shows the character POV) makes a really nice interaction between both TV and controller for instance, if you lose and it repeats the gamer would be extra focused on the sequence in order to avoid it.

Could also work in a real cinematic way on a cutscene/gameplay segment taking place at a poker table, people talking and the gamer being supposed to cheat in a "007" kind of environment (cheating with cards, switching chips, stuff like that), or just play in a regular way while talking with other characters in order to blend in with their group. Seems capable of enjoying a broad employment actually I actually wish some of these ideas were used.

chris3116 said:
I don't know if it was posted according to this : http://www.vandal.net/reportaje/las-novedades-de-pro-evolution-soccer-2013/2

A Pro Evolution Soccer game is coming to Wii U but they are working first on Sony and Microsoft versions first. My spanish is not very good but I think that's what it said.

I'd like to try a Playmaker version on Wii U. I heard good things on Wii for the Playmaker versions. And I think with the screen, it could be an evolution.

Oh, speaking of which, I'd like Inazuma Eleven, proper one.

ASIS · Jul 3, 2012

lostinblue said:
Well a game made out of such interactions could feel really fresh and cinematic, for sure.

Rendering from the same scene from two cameras is certainly feasible albeit with hit, has been done since the first 3D console's with split screen modes and 3D games also render a second view point. I believe ZombiU when using the controller screen for camera purposes also changes the viewpoint slightly?

you could also have a cutscene taking part like it usually does, and have the controller always showing your current point of view and nothing more, with the gyroscopes though you could move your head about and focus on certain things, perhaps as part of the gameplay.

Could be used in some really clever ways, I just remembered there was a multiplayer game on game & wario that can be played without extra controllers which is a "catch the thief" game, the controller controls the thief on a fixed camera point of a city with lots of bystanders and cars going by, and you have to somehow pinpoint who the thief was in the end.

Something like seeing some guy is holding a knife on his right hand on a TV cutscene before he stabs you out of nowhere and having to guess with the controller (that only shows the character POV) makes a really nice interaction between both TV and controller for instance.

Yup, I think you fully understood my concept, thank god!

Anyway reading my posts again was really painful, my writing is just awful right now so I'll just go to sleep, see ya guys tomorrow.

Terrell · Jul 3, 2012

AzaK said:
Don't underestimate the MASSIVE pull Facebook has just by being the biggest. Why try and go to another system when all your friends and family are on Facebook? Just moving yourself defeats the purpose of a social system of noone else you know is there.

Seriously, it's like you never heard of MySpace.
Never mind the IM/chat services that have come in millions and millions of users strong only to get dumped later down the road.
And that was before IRC, which had a monopoly on chat services because it was the ONLY option and as far as I'm concerned was the most versatile and least divisive of all the services that supplanted it.

AJSousuke · Jul 3, 2012

Nintendo-4Life said:
Yup, I think you fully understood my concept, thank god!

Anyway reading my posts again was really painful, my writing is just awful right now so I'll just go to sleep, see ya guys tomorrow.

wow i just had a similar idea some time ago, but not aplied to a full game but one with lots of cinematics like MGS, so instead of making cinematics from the game you put game in the cinematics.

I think that idea could be perfect for games ala Heavy Rain.

edit: lostinblue ideas are great!

AzaK · Jul 3, 2012

Terrell said:
Seriously, it's like you never heard of MySpace.
Never mind the IM/chat services that have come in millions and millions of users strong only to get dumped later down the road.
And that was before IRC, which had a monopoly on chat services because it was the ONLY option and as far as I'm concerned was the most versatile and least divisive of all the services that supplanted it.

Seriously, it's like you're thinking MySpace was anywhere near as big as Facebook is.

And you're lumping IRC in there? Compared to Facebook (And Google+ and anything for that matter) IRC is rubbish as a fully featured social networking system goes.

All I'm saying is that Facebook is a behemoth like nothing before it. Topping that fucker is going to be damned hard.

jmizzal · Jul 3, 2012

MadeInBeats said:
Yeah, they were both there: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473122&highlight=blockbuster

Still interesting how 'Zombie' was listed

Yea and the list had Marvel Super Heroes, before Avengers Battle for earth was announced.

Splinter Cell 6 being on the list and on a lot of European retailers data base tells me its def in development for WiiU, just not announced yet like almost all games outside of the launch Window.

snowdog1971 · Jul 3, 2012

AzaK said:
Precisely. I just hope Nintendo have done enough in the hardware, and in third party relations to bring that to fruition.

I'm convinced they have done for next gen multiplatform titles. And if they have included some sort of fixed functions as part of the GPU to give 'free' HDR lighting or AA I'm also convinced that they'll be working with the likes of Epic, Crytek, Capcom etc to make those features easily implemented in their next gen engines.

StevieP · Jul 3, 2012

chris3116 said:
I don't know if it was posted according to this : http://www.vandal.net/reportaje/las-novedades-de-pro-evolution-soccer-2013/2

A Pro Evolution Soccer game is coming to Wii U but they are working first on Sony and Microsoft versions first. My spanish is not very good but I think that's what it said.

I'd like to try a Playmaker version on Wii U. I heard good things on Wii for the Playmaker versions. And I think with the screen, it could be an evolution.

Third parties, everybody

Terrell · Jul 3, 2012

AzaK said:
Seriously, it's like you're thinking MySpace was anywhere near as big as Facebook is.

And you're lumping IRC in there? Compared to Facebook (And Google+ and anything for that matter) IRC is rubbish as a fully featured social networking system goes.

All I'm saying is that Facebook is a behemoth like nothing before it. Topping that fucker is going to be damned hard.

Per capita of the amount of Internet users available at their respective launches, yeah, they're comparable. Facebook's userbase numbers are by virtue of being the system people moved to when the Internet became a necessary household expense.

Also, a too big to fail argument doesn't exactly work in anyone's favor.

Google+ could have taken down Facebook if it wasn't completely lacking in feature set. People were outright ready to leave and Google didn't give them a compelling reason to because of everything it lacked. It STILL lacks basic features of Facebook after almost a year on the scene.

The problem with the comparisons in the first place is that services like Facebook are infinitely transferable. You don't stop being able to use it because you use a different browser, or a different product brand.

That really corrupts the value proposition of something like XBL. MS isn't giving away the next Xbox and you can't sell people on a console with a network service, it's not a primary incentive for a purchase, a console and games that offer a value proposition are. All it will take is misstep or miscalculation of its competition from MS and XBL won't mean a hill of beans.

DAREALGUMMY · Jul 3, 2012

I don't think brand loyalty really has anything to do with it in the end. It's all about where people are. I know that if COD comes to the Wii U, I'm going to be playing it with people I don't know. All my other friends most likely won't get a Wii U at launch (or at all) because everyone plays on Xbox. Now if Nintendo can do something to make people look at their online and say "Wow, that's pretty cool." and be able to bring them over then it could be something.

I don't think they can do that if it's bare bones that brings nothing new to the table unless the games themselves leave the current systems in the dust (probably won't happen til at least the newer systems are ready to come out)

Aostia · Jul 3, 2012

AzaK said:
Not really sarcasm, no. I didn't expect him to lose his job (or get close) I just wish something would change there with their approach and if Iwata has to go to get there, I'm OK with that although I'm not educated enough on possible replacements. I'm getting tired of core, mature gaming being ignored by Nintendo again and again, and their myopic focus on the blue ocean. It's now a very secondary endeavour to them because they have found an audience they can make lots of profits from due to the lower cost of entry. They really don't want to lose that, which is fine, but they are obsessed with it to the detriment of core, western gamers I feel.

Iwata has constantly been touting "We love the core! We need them!" and then going and pulling off an E3 like they did for the unveiling of their new console that he didn't even appear at. Add in a post E3 drought of core western support being announced and it's all looking like it's empty rhetoric and I'm sick of it. He managed to take a sky high share price and completely annihilate it due to extreme short-sightedness with the Wii and arrogance with the 3DS. As Iwata has alluded to before, a not insignificant part of this share destruction is due in a part to the inability of the Wii to capture the core third party titles and keep the core happy. We are the ones that keep the hype up and keep the sales motoring along because we are the nutters who buy lots of games.

They Wii was amazing, it really was, and did a shit tonne to bring other gamers into the mix, but based on what happened after about 3-4 years, it looks like it was lightning in a bottle at worse, and bad planning by Nintendo at best.

I am a NTDOY holder and recently bought some more because I feel that Nintendo will be doing reasonably well in the future. However, that isn't mutually exclusive to a change of management and attitude that I desire.

Do you realize that what the investor would love is to put Mario on iOS system, right? If Iwata will be replaced for not getting enough money from the 3ds and the Wii U we will not see "the core nintendo of the good old days", but an even more casual and social oriented company

shinra-bansho · Jul 3, 2012

Terrell said:
Per capita of the amount of Internet users available at their respective launches, yeah, they're comparable. Facebook's userbase numbers are by virtue of being the system people moved to when the Internet became a necessary household expense.

Also, a too big to fail argument doesn't exactly work in anyone's favor.

Google+ could have taken down Facebook if it wasn't completely lacking in feature set. People were outright ready to leave and Google didn't give them a compelling reason to because of everything it lacked. It STILL lacks basic features of Facebook after almost a year on the scene.

The problem with the comparisons in the first place is that services like Facebook are infinitely transferable. You don't stop being able to use it because you use a different browser, or a different product brand.

That really corrupts the value proposition of something like XBL. MS isn't giving away the next Xbox and you can't sell people on a console with a network service, it's not a primary incentive for a purchase, a console and games that offer a value proposition are. All it will take is misstep or miscalculation of its competition from MS and XBL won't mean a hill of beans.

All it takes is missteps or miscalculations to make any asset "not mean a hill of beans." (Which I'm assuming means it makes it useless/worthless).

Yes, part of Facebook's success is due to serendipitous fortune. That does not mean there aren't intrinsic barriers to switching now that it's so established. I tried Google+ and I couldn't be bothered, everyone I knew was on Facebook already - as you rightly say they didn't offer a sufficiently strong value proposition to overcome these social switching costs. I'm not sure where you get that "people were outright ready to leave." As for being able to use both, sure, but they're fighting for your time, as there's only so much browsing a person can do in a day.

With regard to Live it's not just the service/user experience nonsense that ties people to their accounts. It's the social aspects and barrier to switching. You cannot sell a person a console on the prospect of paying to play for P2P gaming. You can sell a person a console on the prospect of playing CoD with their friends, when all their friends are on that platform's online service.

Why do you think despite reaching price parity (and actually selling for less now on average) the PS3 failed to gain any major traction over the 360 in North America?

Not only that, but as mentioned before the account is tied to other investments of time and money - XBLA purchases and achievements.

MadeInBeats · Jul 3, 2012

jmizzal said:
Yea and the list had Marvel Super Heroes, before Avengers Battle for earth was announced.

Splinter Cell 6 being on the list and on a lot of European retailers data base tells me its def in development for WiiU, just not announced yet like almost all games outside of the launch Window.

Aye, it does make you wonder if there was more to that list than just guess work now.

TheExplodingHead · Jul 3, 2012

Aostia said:
Do you realize that what the investor would love is to put Mario on iOS system, right? If Iwata will be replaced for not getting enough money from the 3ds and the Wii U we will not see "the core nintendo of the good old days", but an even more casual and social oriented company

I think, unfortunately this is very true. Not that it's limited to Iwata, either, because if worst came to worst with Wii U sales and support, I could see even him bend and put Pokemon or Mario on iOS.

Log4Girlz · Jul 3, 2012

I think that Nintendo should at least release 1 title on IOS. Like Super Mario Bros. 1. Just for shits and giggles.

Sadist · Jul 3, 2012

So... people are beginning to refer to the Dean Takahashi article. There are guys starting to believe Wii U won't even reach 360 levels. Uh... what...

D-e-f- · Jul 3, 2012

Log4Girlz said:
I think that Nintendo should at least release 1 title on IOS. Like Super Mario Bros. 1. Just for shits and giggles.

that would be a terrible decision!
it would sell like crazy because it's Mario game in iOS and then all those mythical customers would go "huh, I got this for X bucks on my phone, why should I ever buy another Mario game for 40-60 on 3DS or Wii U again?" ...and because it would sell so well, investors would push even more for a move to iOS "see? it worked! stop making hardware!"

absolute catastrophe!

Sadist said:
So... people are beginning to refer to the Dean Takahashi article. There are guys starting to believe Wii U won't even reach 360 levels. Uh... what...

do they think he's a Japanese dev who knows the hardware because his name is Takahashi?

this power discussion is really getting annoying. honestly, that's what I'm looking forward to more than playing the actual games--when the system's out, we can finally focus on actual games (after a while at least, once everyone has done their Gfx comparison videos).

donny2112 · Jul 3, 2012

Log4Girlz said:
I think that Nintendo should at least release 1 title on IOS. Like Super Mario Bros. 1. Just for ... and giggles.

No, it sets a bad precedent. If they came out with one, it'd be worse than coming out with none due to then people (reasonably) expecting even more games to be released. Best not to even touch iOS with their real games for risk of devaluing the advantage of having only Nintendo consoles able to legitimately have Nintendo games.

Nintendo needs as near to complete third-support on Wii U, as they can get. Not necessarily for any individual's tastes, but to try to satisfy as many people as possible with what's on the system. Nintendo needs to be able to (mostly) satisfy as many different gamer types as they can with the Wii U to promote any possible long-term success.

japtor · Jul 3, 2012

Aostia said:
Do you realize that what the investor would love is to put Mario on iOS system, right? If Iwata will be replaced for not getting enough money from the 3ds and the Wii U we will not see "the core nintendo of the good old days", but an even more casual and social oriented company

This sums up my thoughts too. It's not like investors are necessarily gamers or anything, their primary concern is money, and right now there's a lot of money on iOS. They see that Nintendo could probably make a killing with cheap games (both in dev effort/costs and selling price) while not necessarily seeing the long term effects, and definitely not caring for the gaming experience or creativity or any of that stuff (other than the effect on profitability).

donny2112 said:
Nintendo needs as near to complete third-support on Wii U, as they can get. Not necessarily for any individual's tastes, but to try to satisfy as many people as possible with what's on the system. Nintendo needs to be able to (mostly) satisfy as many different gamer types as they can with the Wii U to promote any possible long-term success.

Yeah, particularly cause as long as people can get whatever games they want they have less reason to get other systems. If you can get a game for $60 are you going to spend $300-400+ for another console and prettier version of the same game? Of course that hurts the Wii U right now with the amount of 360s/PS3s out there, but when the next generation games and consoles come out the situation flips around, especially if the Wii U gets a decent start and builds up a good sized user base and community.

Thinking about it, next E3 might actually be interesting* cause the timing. Even if Sony and MS do blowouts, ultimately their launches will probably be a few months away. Meanwhile Nintendo can just announce a few big games for quick releases before the others are even on the market (and still have enough time to hold back holiday releases for another announcement later).

*We all know it won't, but it's fun to dream.

z0m3le · Jul 3, 2012

D-e-f- said:
that would be a terrible decision!
it would sell like crazy because it's Mario game in iOS and then all those mythical customers would go "huh, I got this for X bucks on my phone, why should I ever buy another Mario game for 40-60 on 3DS or Wii U again?" ...and because it would sell so well, investors would push even more for a move to iOS "see? it worked! stop making hardware!"

absolute catastrophe!

do they think he's a Japanese dev who knows the hardware because his name is Takahashi?

this power discussion is really getting annoying. honestly, that's what I'm looking forward to more than playing the actual games--when the system's out, we can finally focus on actual games (after a while at least, once everyone has done their Gfx comparison videos).

After reading Emily Rogers new article, http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/07/02/the-rise-of-costs-the-fall-of-gaming/ I think it's pretty clear that developers will have a hard time using up all that the PS4/XB3 consoles have to offer in terms of graphics, I'm pretty sure smaller developers will skip the extra details all together and the quality of the games will not dramatically improve from a graphics perspective. It's surprisingly well documented what this generation has done to dev houses and what the future looks like. Particularly that Naughty Dog quote about their darkest days is very enlightening.

DrWong · Jul 3, 2012

Welcome to a new challenger! After the Wii U, the ............. Ouya?! > http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/2/31...e-android-game-console-designed-by-yves-behar

We don't often report on startups without a physical product to their name, but when you've got sponsors like Ouya does, it's hard not to pay attention. According to a posting on AngelList, Ouya has recruited the talents of Yves Behar to build a $99 Android game console that you can connect to a TV, with a high-concept developer ecosystem that's as free as can be. Any developer will be able to publish games, claims the listing, and all games will be free to play. Even the underlying hardware is "built to be hacked" — every customer who buys a retail box will get a dev kit in the bargain, the site claims.

HeroR said:
As for the casual market, the phone market is not the same as the DS or Wii casual games. Most phone games are shallow and while most of the casual games Nintendo make do have hidden debt and the polish that Nintendo known for. They are not shovelware games.

This. A lot of people here like to point the fact that DS/Wii casual audience will not come-back to Nintendo as they can now find on smartphone and so on what they had on DS/Wii. It's the "you can find kawashima like on IOS for cheap" meme, forgetting what makes Nintendo (quality) games a different experience in the long run (lot of these evergreen titles are still charting worlwide since their release): Wii Sport, Kawashima, Animal Crossing etc... are not shovelware and are not so easy to emulate. You don't find these experiences everywhere. Software, as usual, will be the big key and on this front Nintendo is still in a better position than its competion.

And Nintendo Land will be a blast as soon as people will give it a try. Don't underestimate Nintendo gaming "science".

AzaK · Jul 3, 2012

japtor said:
Yeah, particularly cause as long as people can get whatever games they want they have less reason to get other systems. If you can get a game for $60 are you going to spend $300-400+ for another console and prettier version of the same game? Of course that hurts the Wii U right now with the amount of 360s/PS3s out there, but when the next generation games and consoles come out the situation flips around, especially if the Wii U gets a decent start and builds up a good sized user base and community.

*We all know it won't, but it's fun to dream.

The thing is, I feel that given the mediocre power increase of the console compared to current gen HD systems, the lack of good western third party support and little information from Nintendo on what the future holds, Wii U will be once again a console primarily for Nintendo fans and the expanded audience. I don't see Nintendo getting any of the 360 or PS3 crowd and I expect those guys to wait it out until MS and Sony release their beast machines.

DrWong · Jul 3, 2012

AzaK said:
The thing is, I feel that given the mediocre power increase of the console compared to current gen HD systems, the lack of good western third party support and little information from Nintendo on what the future holds, Wii U will be once again a console primarily for Nintendo fans and the expanded audience. I don't see Nintendo getting any of the 360 or PS3 crowd and I expect those guys to wait it out until MS and Sony release their beast machines.

Don't be so scary by the HD twins scarecrow: Nintendo fans and expanded audience is a win. + a PC.

z0m3le · Jul 3, 2012

AzaK said:
The thing is, I feel that given the mediocre power increase of the console compared to current gen HD systems, the lack of good western third party support and little information from Nintendo on what the future holds, Wii U will be once again a console primarily for Nintendo fans and the expanded audience. I don't see Nintendo getting any of the 360 or PS3 crowd and I expect those guys to wait it out until MS and Sony release their beast machines.

I'm curious how many of those gamers bought a Wii as their second console (or bought it first and later bought the PS360 as their second console) all those PSWii's and Wii60 people are probably looking to upgrade their Wii, and lets face it, after 7 years... a lot of people are ready to buy a new system, especially if it has a cool feature like streaming games to the controller.

fabricated backlash · Jul 3, 2012

z0m3le said:
I'm curious how many of those gamers bought a Wii as their second console (or bought it first and later bought the PS360 as their second console) all those PSWii's and Wii60 people are probably looking to upgrade their Wii, and lets face it, after 7 years... a lot of people are ready to buy a new system, especially if it has a cool feature like streaming games to the controller.

I'm going PC/WiiU this time. I might get the PS4 if it's reasonably priced. I'm pretty much done with Microsoft and their horrible european Live service and most games will be on PC in a superior version anyway.

EatChildren · Jul 3, 2012

PC, for the giant library of affordable better looking, better playing third party multiplatform games, especially from the West.

Wii U, for Nintendo and quirky shit.

PS4/X720, for whichever Microsoft/Sony branded exclusives you prefer, and the handful of console exclusive games (probably from Japanese developers who cannot wrap their head around the PC market).

~fin

TheExplodingHead · Jul 3, 2012

I'll probably go for all the systems next gen, again. But I tend to gravitate toward one or two depending on the times and the games. At first it was 360 and Wii, now it's PS3 (mostly Souls) and PC. The same will probably be true of next gen. But I'll always be playing Nintendo's first party stuff, multi platform will highly depend on if there is no PC version or if the tablet offers a real excuse for a purchase.

Aostia · Jul 3, 2012

My actual bet for the incoming gen will be 3DS (already owned) Wii u and PS4.
3DS because I like to have a very portable experience and I like Nintendo games and a lot of DS games I hope to get also on 3ds (starting from layton and inazuma)
Wii U because I like Nintendo games but also the "different" (not saying better) interfaces that Nintendo is offering (from the gamepad to the remote still available and apparently useful)
PS4 because I'll probably get tha vast majority of the multiplatform titles from third parties and I prefer Sony first efforts over MS ones

last gen I had also PSP and 360 by comparison, but my free time is smaller and smaller, and my economical efforts will be streched due to various personal factors

Generally speaking, also if I'm afraid and bored by the lack of faith third parties seem to offer to the Wii U, I would prefer to avoid a Nintendo home console that tries to steal audience from the HD twins, because that would mean a more flat offer on the market, in my opinion

I would prefer something more balanced between the "Nintendo crowd + mass market" extreme and the "Hardcore western PC-ist development" but if I have to choose among thos two sides, I'll stay on the "Wii" one, considering that I'd bu PS3-4 in any case for Sony IPs

Mpl90 · Jul 3, 2012

z0m3le said:
After reading Emily Rogers new article, http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/07/02/the-rise-of-costs-the-fall-of-gaming/ I think it's pretty clear that developers will have a hard time using up all that the PS4/XB3 consoles have to offer in terms of graphics, I'm pretty sure smaller developers will skip the extra details all together and the quality of the games will not dramatically improve from a graphics perspective. It's surprisingly well documented what this generation has done to dev houses and what the future looks like. Particularly that Naughty Dog quote about their darkest days is very enlightening.

Yeah, pretty good article.
Many Western companies seem to really desire suicide. It's not only the high rising costs, but also, in some cases, a worrying lack of organisation between sectors.

Gaming industry can't sustain this. We need to introduce a flexible pricing system as soon as possible.
Games with big budget = big price
Games with mid level price = mid level price
How can a software house hope a customer pick up...let's say...deBlob when it's priced as the next big Mario title? Nothing against the quality, it's the brand here, and a customer will almost always pick up something related to a big brand.
Along with this, there should be more and more mid-level retail projects, which can even actually sustain costs for other big projects.

Another thing I think it would help in selling games too is the sociality, making consoles actual community like Facebook / Twitter, trying to use the social mania, the fact we're connected as it has never happened with different parts of the world, as an advantage...and actually, this is why I think Wii U will start well ( Miiverse is a pretty big thing potentially IMHO )

fabricated backlash · Jul 3, 2012

I agree with Eat and Aostia. Outside of Halo, MSs exclusive library is not to my liking, and as a main land European Live simply isn't worth the asking price. Sony has really started to build an amazing line of first party titles that cover a vast range of tastes. If PS4 is reasonably priced I might get it at launch, if not, somewhere down the road when The Last Guardian is released for it in 2016. ...

I'm looking forward to building a new PC once I finished my diploma thesis.
If I'm staying here I will have to install new wirings though as with the current setup, having a new PC and consoles and TV would pose a serious fire hazard lol.

Btw, I just got Spirit Camera, and holy shit, the WiiU NEEDS a Fatal Frame game. Like absolutely needs one. The immersion factor is amazing, even on the tiny 3DS screen, and the hunt for ghosts that require you to actually turn 360° in person is amazingly fun/scary.

This is probably one of the coolest uses of the Gamepad that I can imagine, because it absolutely works. A shame that the Gamepad doesn't have an outward facing camera to use for AR as the higher processing power and better quality of the camera of the WiiU would definetly improve the experience. This in particular is one area where the WiiU creates gameplay that simply isn't possible on any existing hardware.

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