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Starphanluke · Sep 17, 2017

Just got back from this. Before I begin, I should note I loved this, but I'm also a raging cinephile and a film student so... I may have a different perspective than most audiences.

Anyway, my screening was more crowded than I expected, but that quickly changed. Two couples left about halfway through the movie, and another and a man by himself about 3/4 of the way through. At the closing credits, those who were left erupted in laughter, and got up to leave immediately.

Listening to them all talk outside the theatre, I realized that none of them seemed to get the (what I thought was obvious) allegory. I literally heard someone say "I don't understand the whole last hour."

It seems, at least to me, that the problem is that the movie is going right over the audience's head. And that's not to call people stupid, it's just such a thick film.

Anyway, the minute the crystal "heart" was broken by the couple I knew what was going on. Cane and Able (or whatever the sons' real names were) showed up it was just cemented. I'm just shocked some people still didn't seem to understand by the ending- I thought, by that point, the movie was slapping you over the face with it.

Edit: Maybe it's because I was raised Catholic and assumed it was common knowledge, but I thought the Poet "marking" the followers with black ink on their forehead would be the moment the religious subtext clicked with people. It did not.

snausagesUK · Sep 17, 2017

What's really interesting is the fact that so many people laughed at the ending, it was the same for the screening I went to.

I think people just felt cheated by the allegorical stuff at the end

Slythe · Sep 17, 2017

Starphanluke said:
Just got back from this. Before I begin, I should note I loved this, but I'm also a raging cinephile and a film student so... I may have a different perspective than most audiences.

Anyway, my screening was more crowded than I expected, but that quickly changed. Two couples left about halfway through the movie, and another and a man by himself about 3/4 of the way through. At the closing credits, those who were left erupted in laughter, and got up to leave immediately.

Listening to them all talk outside the theatre, I realized that none of them seemed to get the (what I thought was obvious) allegory. I literally heard someone say "I don't understand the whole last hour."

It seems, at least to me, that the problem is that the movie is going right over the audience's head. And that's not to call people stupid, it's just such a thick film.

Anyway, the minute the crystal "heart" was broken by the couple I knew what was going on. Cane and Able (or whatever the sons' real names were) showed up it was just cemented. I'm just shocked some people still didn't seem to understand by the ending- I thought, by that point, the movie was slapping you over the face with it.

I'm with you. I loved it also, and thought the biblical allegory was clear as day. But I too am a big analyzer of films and I have a religion degree. I found this movie totally engrossing and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

A woman in my row just blurted out at the end "wow there was no message to any of this", which I thought was pretty funny.

More_Badass · Sep 17, 2017

Starphanluke said:
Just got back from this. Before I begin, I should note I loved this, but I'm also a raging cinephile and a film student so... I may have a different perspective than most audiences.

Anyway, my screening was more crowded than I expected, but that quickly changed. Two couples left about halfway through the movie, and another and a man by himself about 3/4 of the way through. At the closing credits, those who were left erupted in laughter, and got up to leave immediately.

Listening to them all talk outside the theatre, I realized that none of them seemed to get the (what I thought was obvious) allegory. I literally heard someone say "I don't understand the whole last hour."

It seems, at least to me, that the problem is that the movie is going right over the audience's head. And that's not to call people stupid, it's just such a thick film.

Anyway, the minute the crystal "heart" was broken by the couple I knew what was going on. Cane and Able (or whatever the sons' real names were) showed up it was just cemented. I'm just shocked some people still didn't seem to understand by the ending- I thought, by that point, the movie was slapping you over the face with it.

It started to click once the brothers showed up, one killing the other and the killer being marked. Then I started to get it once we saw people blessed and anointed, and then the allegory was made clear with Bardem's "I am I". In hindsight, the Adam and Eve, the flood, etc stuff seemed very apparent once you understand its allegory

And yeah, after my showing, one person was commenting to another "Story? What story?", another saying it was the worse movie they ever saw, and another telling his mom that the movie was a time loop but not really noticing anything about the film

HStallion · Sep 17, 2017

After following Aronofsky's career for years since he released Pi I still think he's the perfect director if they ever make a live action Western Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Doctor Decimate · Sep 17, 2017

More_Badass said:
The trailer is kind of hilarious once you've seen the movie. I don't think it's as bad as It Comes At Night, but yeah, it's pretty amazing what you can do with selective editing and snippets of dialogue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpICoc65uh0

To be fair, I wouldn't say the trailer is exactly lying. That aspect and story does still happen in the movie. But the trailer is like a candle illuminating a tiny corner of a painting and then seeing the movie lights up the entire canvas. The movie takes that story being presented in the trailer and recontextualizes it

I thought it was particularly amusing that in the trailer that shot from below of Javier Bardem (dressed in white) looking down from the staircase is played up as sinister whereas in the context of the film it's probably the most explicit visual reference to him as God.

Starphanluke · Sep 17, 2017

Slythe said:
I'm with you. I loved it also, and thought the biblical allegory was clear as day. But I too am a big analyzer of films and I have a religion degree. I found this movie totally engrossing and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

A woman in my row just blurted out at the end "wow there was no message to any of this", which I thought was pretty funny.

More_Badass said:
It started to click once the brothers showed up, one killing the other and the killer being marked. Then I started to get it once we saw people blessed and anointed, and then the allegory was made clear with Bardem's "I am I". In hindsight, the Adam and Eve, the flood, etc stuff seemed very apparent once you understand its allegory

And yeah, after my showing, one person was commenting to another "Story? What story?", another saying it was the worse movie they ever saw, and another telling his mom that the movie was a time loop but not really noticing anything about the film

Yeah, the more I think about it, if someone doesn't grasp the whole religion thing, the movie must make absolutely no sense.
Being someone who was raised a strict Catholic but is very much the opposite now, I was well equipped to both understand and enjoy the message of the movie. Kind of makes me a little sad some people are missing out on that "point."

HStallion · Sep 17, 2017

I still don't think JLaw was playing Mother Earth but that the house was supposed to be Earth. She has a lot of lines that don't really seem to relate to a Mother Earth style character like talking about preparing the apocalypse and is often referred to by others in terms like,"The inspiration." I may be wrong on her representing one part of the Holy Trinity along with Bardem and the baby but I don't think the mother earth thing fits.

paperboywriter · Sep 17, 2017

Just watched it. Give me a couple of minutes, need some time off

More_Badass · Sep 17, 2017

Starphanluke said:
Yeah, the more I think about it, if someone doesn't grasp the whole religion thing, the movie must make absolutely no sense.
Being someone who was raised a strict Catholic but is very much the opposite now, I was well equipped to both understand and enjoy the message of the movie. Kind of makes me a little sad some people are missing out on that "point."

Not only is this movie a biblical allegory, it's a pretty damming condemnation of god and of religion IMO. God is a narcisstic creator obsessed with creation but doesn't actually care for his creations. Religion is not a good thing but something used by people to justify their wars and terrible acts, twisting and corrupting its beautiful inspiration in the name of their creator, destroying their home and earth in the process without care. And people are beyond forgiveness for this.

HStallion · Sep 17, 2017

The real question is does Darren Aronofsky read the SCP website because there are a ton of SCP's that the movie is incredibly similar too and I'm not just talking biblical allegory but like the actual outline of what happens in the film. Probably just a coincidence but still I couldn't help but think after watching it and go,"Man what SCP entry was this?"

Kusagari · Sep 17, 2017

HStallion said:
I still don't think JLaw was playing Mother Earth but that the house was supposed to be Earth. She has a lot of lines that don't really seem to relate to a Mother Earth style character like talking about preparing the apocalypse and is often referred to by others in terms like,"The inspiration." I may be wrong on her representing one part of the Holy Trinity along with Bardem and the baby but I don't think the mother earth thing fits.

There's other lines that don't really make sense if she isn't Mother Nature though; like when she specifically says she's trying to make the home paradise.

I think she's supposed to represent an amalgamation of the Virgin Mary and Mother Nature.

paperboywriter · Sep 17, 2017

More_Badass said:
Not only is this movie a biblical allegory, it's a pretty damming condemnation of god and of religion IMO. God is a narcisstic creator obsessed with creation but doesn't actually care for his creations. Religion is not a good thing but something used by people to justify their wars and terrible acts, twisting and corrupting its beautiful inspiration in the name of their creator, destroying their home and earth in the process without care. And people are beyond forgiveness for this.

well thats a pretty good summary for the movie.

More_Badass · Sep 17, 2017

In hindsight, Bardem being pepper sprayed is people spitting in the face of God. Fuck your message, we do what we want, you can't stop us from corrupting your message

Wasn't he trying to tell them to stop when that happened?

Maitiú · Sep 17, 2017

HStallion said:
I still don't think JLaw was playing Mother Earth but that the house was supposed to be Earth. She has a lot of lines that don't really seem to relate to a Mother Earth style character like talking about preparing the apocalypse and is often referred to by others in terms like,"The inspiration." I may be wrong on her representing one part of the Holy Trinity along with Bardem and the baby but I don't think the mother earth thing fits.

I don't remember Mother Nature saying anything about "preparing" for the apocalypse, but rather cleaning up the apocalypse, I.e., the great flood that she desperately tried to prevent to preserve all the work she had done in building up and maintaining the world's ecosystem. Mother Nature as inspiration makes sense as well, as why else did god create if not for his own pleasure/needs. But it turns out she wasn't able to inspire him for long. He needed broken, fallible beings who would love, entertain, and worship him.

More_Badass · Sep 17, 2017

That chaos set piece was one of the best "war" sequences I've seen this year. That it takes the intensity of a warzone and confines to the claustrophobic corridors of a single house, and that it was a lot of long takes, makes it that much more visually insane

HStallion · Sep 17, 2017

Maitiú;249171632 said:
I don't remember Mother Nature saying anything about "preparing" for the apocalypse, but rather cleaning up the apocalypse, I.e., the great flood that she desperately tried to prevent to preserve all the work she had done in building up and maintaining the world's ecosystem. Mother Nature as inspiration makes sense as well, as why else did god create if not for his own pleasure/needs. But it turns out she wasn't able to inspire him for long. He needed broken, fallible beings who would love, entertain, and worship him.

She tells Bardem that she's going to go "Prepare the apocalypse" in a slightly joking manner.

Doctor Decimate · Sep 17, 2017

i didn't take jennifer lawrence as mother earth either so much as just a complimentary goddess who happens to be part of aronofsky's retelling to serve as a POV character that recontextualizes the actions of god when we have another perspective.

though maybe i just need to watch it again.

KarneeKarnay · Sep 17, 2017

I can see why some people would be confused, but...

Fuck this wasn't even subtle at all. I can still see why, but fuck.

TheChewyWaffles · Sep 17, 2017

So...God..."mother" earth (or the Virgin Mary?)...adam and eve / cain and abel? Wow...what did I just watch??

Starphanluke · Sep 17, 2017

More_Badass said:
Not only is this movie a biblical allegory, it's a pretty damming condemnation of god and of religion IMO. God is a narcisstic creator obsessed with creation but doesn't actually care for his creations. Religion is not a good thing but something used by people to justify their wars and terrible acts, twisting and corrupting its beautiful inspiration in the name of their creator, destroying their home and earth in the process without care. And people are beyond forgiveness for this.

Oh yeah, that was my big takeaway. This movie does not want you to like the "God" character. He's just as obsessive with his followers as they are of him. Well said!

HStallion · Sep 17, 2017

TheChewyWaffles said:
So...God..."mother" earth (or the Virgin Mary?)...adam and eve / cain and abel? Wow...what did I just watch??

Darren Aronofsky read Preacher and was like,"I can do better"

truongt · Sep 17, 2017

Is this movie good? I been hearing mix things about the movie.

More_Badass · Sep 17, 2017

truongt said:
Is this movie good? I been hearing mix things about the movie.

Depends on what kinds of movies you enjoy and why

wenis · Sep 17, 2017

I also want to say, when people complain that hollywood is too safe and we're stuck in a super-hero chaos cycle and then they DON'T go and support this movie in theaters...

This is probably best served to be in the non-spoiler thread, but still.

Doctor Decimate · Sep 17, 2017

wenis said:
I also want to say, when people complain that hollywood is too safe and we're stuck in a super-hero chaos cycle and then they DON'T go and support this movie in theaters...

but they were sold a horror movie!

or something!

wenis · Sep 17, 2017

Doctor Decimate said:
but they were sold a horror movie!

or something!

I'm gunna look hella snobby, pontificating on this movie for the next couple weeks with friends and co-workers, but sometimes a hill is worth dying on.

Starphanluke · Sep 17, 2017

wenis said:
I'm gunna look hella snobby articulating this movie for the next couple weeks with friends and co-workers, but sometimes a hill is worth dying on.

This is me. I'm already seen as "that film snob" but I don't care.
I get that this movie isn't for anyone, but to straight up call it bad is silly.

RedStep · Sep 17, 2017

wenis said:
I also want to say, when people complain that hollywood is too safe and we're stuck in a super-hero chaos cycle and then they DON'T go and support this movie in theaters...

This is probably best served to be in the non-spoiler thread, but still.

Can you point out the people that are on both sides of that statement?

People don't need to throw money at ideas that don't appeal to them in the name of vague "support". I don't like sports games, I think there are too many. I also don't need to buy every. single. non-sports game just to "support them". Silly stance to take on a movie that is pissing off the people that did support it.

paperboywriter · Sep 17, 2017

wenis said:
I also want to say, when people complain that hollywood is too safe and we're stuck in a super-hero chaos cycle and then they DON'T go and support this movie in theaters...

This is probably best served to be in the non-spoiler thread, but still.

Yeah fucking go amd see this instead of captain America 5.

wenis · Sep 17, 2017

RedStep said:
Can you point out the people that are on both sides of that statement?

People don't need to throw money at ideas that don't appeal to them in the name of vague "support". I don't like sports games, I think there are too many. I also don't need to buy every. single. non-sports game just to "support them". Silly stance to take on a movie that is pissing off the people that did support it.

I'm not talking about the people that have seen it and decided it wasn't for them, but I am calling out people who often complain on this very board in other threads over the years that complain "oh fucking christ we're getting a Baywatch movie" "jesus, another spider-man universe movie in the span of 3 years?" those are the people I'm pointing at and going "here, here is a movie that is challenging, it's pushing out the boundaries of the genres you love and spitting in the face of the rules of those genres and trying new things".

that's what im getting at. im not pointing fingers at people who've at least tried to watch it and put themselves in an awkward position of not knowing what they're getting. as someone who consumes far too many films in a single year it warms my heart to see people put themselves out and try something really new and wild and get something out of it even if its "yea, I don't get it, whatever". at least they tried.

broncobuster · Sep 17, 2017

RedStep said:
Can you point out the people that are on both sides of that statement?

People don't need to throw money at ideas that don't appeal to them in the name of vague "support". I don't like sports games, I think there are too many. I also don't need to buy every. single. non-sports game just to "support them". Silly stance to take on a movie that is pissing off the people that did support it.

Seeing people run with this "superhero movies or mother!" thing makes me wonder if, like, redlettermedia or someone started with it. Doesn't make much sense. This year alone you've a number of successful original movies, from Get Out to Dunkirk to Girls Trip to Baby Driver. Even It, being a book adaptation, for an R-rated horror film is doing ridiculously well.

Is it because of Jennifer Lawrence and mother!'s cast that it has these larger expectations? For me that is actually one of the most appealing part of the movie. That Aronofsky was willing to get so wild with the cast he got. And as much as misleading marketing is a talking point, I kinda love that it throws people off. Down to the actors that show up later in the movie being hidden from trailers.

Dandy Crocodile · Sep 17, 2017

Damn.
Just got home and I'm gonna need some time to digest this.
I got the allegory though I don't think anyone else in the theater did but now I need to read a lot about it and process the entire film to make as much sense of all the little things as I can.

Adam Sadler · Sep 17, 2017

I don't mean this in a condescending way but I used to really hate how some movies completely on the nose until I started watching movies with people who aren't that big into them as me. There's people that still didn't get this movie by the time it was over so I'm a tad bit more understanding when directors/writers make it obvious

More_Badass · Sep 18, 2017

Adam Sadler said:
I don't mean this in a condescending way but I used to really hate how some movies completely on the nose until I started watching movies with people who aren't that big into them as me. There's people that still didn't get this movie by the time it was over so I'm a tad bit more understanding when directors/writers make it obvious

Allegory/symbolism not being subtle isnt necessarily a flaw, though. Some people just seem to hate if a story is not trying to be subtle

Adam Sadler · Sep 18, 2017

More_Badass said:
Allegory/symbolism not being subtle isnt necessarily a flaw, though. Some people just seem to hate if a story is not trying to be subtle

Right that's what I meant. I used to see it as a flaw until watched more movies with my friends and got their impression from them. Sorry if I wasn't clear

excelsiorlef · Sep 18, 2017

More_Badass said:
That chaos set piece was one of the best "war" sequences I've seen this year. That it takes the intensity of a warzone and confines to the claustrophobic corridors of a single house, and that it was a lot of long takes, makes it that much more visually insane

Yeah it was incredible

More_Badass · Sep 18, 2017

Probably going to see this again tomorrow, think it's going to be interesting seeing the movie in a different light

Has anyone speculated what the yellow powder was? I think it might be this, or something similar

Mercuric oxide powder was used as medicine and remedies in the early 1900s. Mercuric powder is extracted from cinnabar, which through history has been one of the common sources of elementary mercury; nowadays, cinnabar is used in feng shui rituals due to its connection to the earth, and to purify the blood, increase fertility, and aid in pregnancy

HStallion · Sep 18, 2017

I'm more curious about what gets flushed down the toilet. That scene and the first shot of the pulsing heart behind the walls had me thinking it was going to be some kind of body horror film but for a house.

Moff · Sep 18, 2017

More_Badass said:
Probably going to see this again tomorrow, think it's going to be interesting seeing the movie in a different light

Has anyone speculated what the yellow powder was? I think it might be this, or something similar

Mercuric oxide powder was used as medicine and remedies in the early 1900s. Mercuric powder is extracted from cinnabar, which through history has been one of the common sources of elementary mercury; nowadays, cinnabar is used in feng shui rituals due to its connection to the earth, and to purify the blood, increase fertility, and aid in pregnancy

I think it's something supernatural, it glows and sparkles when she puts it in the water, it's definitely a special effect

TheChewyWaffles · Sep 18, 2017

I enjoyed this movie. Certainly immensely more than Noah, which is his worst by far.

It was STILL bizarre. MoviePass is amazing, that's all I gotta say.

border · Sep 18, 2017

I loved the 80 minutes or so. It feels like really high-budget experimental Theatre of the Absurd. The whole production has a very theatrical quality to it, since it takes place only in 1 location.

The final hellish nightmare sequence just wore me out me though. Once the film lost any kind of connection to reality I just sorta tuned out. At that point it just feels like very over-the-top and self-indulgent theatre.

Messofanego · Sep 18, 2017

Most shocking moment was when the baby's neck gets bent backwards, and then mother gets her face beat down like Irreversible.

Messofanego · Sep 18, 2017

border said:
I loved the 80 minutes or so. It feels like really high-budget experimental Theatre of the Absurd. The whole production has a very theatrical quality to it, since it takes place only in 1 location.

The final hellish nightmare sequence just wore me out me though. Once the film lost any kind of connection to reality I just sorta tuned out. At that point it just feels like very over-the-top and self-indulgent theatre.

All of Zulawksi's films are very theatrical and surreal like that, not sure if you'd be into that considering you like a grip on reality in your films

border · Sep 18, 2017

Messofanego said:
All of Zulawksi's films are very theatrical and surreal like that, not sure if you'd be into that considering you like a grip on reality in your films

For me there's like a really fine line between enjoyable surrealism/weirdness and completely disconnected boring surrealism. I'm totally fine with most David Lynch projects because they take place in their own weird reality. The back half of Mother doesn't seem to exist in any reality.....it's all just nightmarish imagery to serve some kind of allegory.

I will try to check out some Zulawksi films.

SexyFish · Sep 18, 2017

More_Badass said:
Probably going to see this again tomorrow, think it's going to be interesting seeing the movie in a different light

Has anyone speculated what the yellow powder was? I think it might be this, or something similar

Mercuric oxide powder was used as medicine and remedies in the early 1900s. Mercuric powder is extracted from cinnabar, which through history has been one of the common sources of elementary mercury; nowadays, cinnabar is used in feng shui rituals due to its connection to the earth, and to purify the blood, increase fertility, and aid in pregnancy

I thought of the powder as a way of her restoring her faith, but my memory of when the powder was trashed in the film is a little hazy.

Dandy Crocodile · Sep 18, 2017

Messofanego said:
Most shocking moment was when the baby's neck gets bent backwards, and then mother gets her face beat down like Irreversible.

Utterly brutal sequence. I'm a huge horror fan and wouldn't consider this in the horror genre but some of the scenes are haunting me more than any horror film I've seen.

SexyFish said:
I thought of the powder as a way of her restoring her faith, but my memory of when the powder was trashed in the film is a little hazy.

She dumped it I believe the morning she told Him she was pregnant.

Quick · Sep 18, 2017

Just got out from it.

Some thoughts:

At first, I thought it was depicting the mind of someone who suffers from anxiety and mental illness, but as the movie went on and on, it became clea, at least from what I got out of it, what was being shown.

Jennifer Lawrence = Earth
Javier Bardem = Religion (Christianity specifically?)
Ed Harris and Michelle Pfeiffer = Adam and Eve
Gleesons = Cain and Abel
Everything else happening = Humanity in general
Baby = Something the Earth tries to hide but the humans find and destroy it (perhaps another biblical reference?)

Apparently there's more to it than that, but that's where my thoughts went to on the movie.

I don't know if I liked it or not, but it really generated discussion with my friends and I afterwards.

ciD_Vain · Sep 18, 2017

Holy crap that was intense! Definitely saw a lot of biblical allegories in there. I am just unsure what the yellow potion was supposed to represent.

ricardo_sousa11 · Sep 18, 2017

Quick said:
Just got out from it.

Some thoughts:

At first, I thought it was depicting the mind of someone who suffers from anxiety and mental illness, but as the movie went on and on, it became clea, at least from what I got out of it, what was being shown.

Jennifer Lawrence = Earth
Javier Bardem = Religion (Christianity specifically?)
Ed Harris and Michelle Pfeiffer = Adam and Eve
Gleesons = Cain and Abel
Everything else happening = Humanity in general
Baby = Something the Earth tries to hide but the humans find and destroy it (perhaps another biblical reference?)

Apparently there's more to it than that, but that's where my thoughts went to on the movie.

I don't know if I liked it or not, but it really generated discussion with my friends and I afterwards.

The baby is Jesus.

I actually saw it on a much smaller scale, I've been reading and checking some reviews and definetly see that interpretation as well.

I actually saw it, exacly as it depicts...Lawrence is the wife of a writer who aquires success and cult following and how society behaves.

But all this is told in a metaphorical way as well, as her character is a depiction of inspiration and innocence, and how she devotes her life, but is often forgotten. And the death of his innocence when they achieve such a following. Her building the house is a metaphor for their relationship and history, thats why she loves the work (of actual building it).

Is this making any sense? This is the first time I feel like I cant really explain what I want to say and what I felt during the movie, but I absolutely loved it!

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