And we'll never get a movie or show about that.
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HBO Talk Confederate Controversy, Defends Slave Drama, Not The Way It Was Announced
- Thread starter lightskintwin
- Start date
Random question but this made me wonder... does the Wolfenstein series depict aspects of the Holocaust in anyway?
white people would burn the movie theater down if they had to witness them being cut down by the hundreds on the big screen by black folk
It goes beyond that as the Nazis open gigantic concentration camps across the world. One of the missions involves you infiltrating one to rescue a person of interest.
A movie would be terrible. A miniseries would be amazing.
Whompa02
Member
are the writers for this not good? I do hear that GoT kind of went downhill after they ran out of book material to work with.
That's not progressive. It all depends on how the story unfolds. How that's interesting is something that's missing right now...All we have is the setup. We need characters, motivation (arguably already have that), some actual vibe and flow here. We need more, at least I need more, before I'm on or off board.
The only thing we have is the terrible, "what if" scenario and nothing much else.
We've had a few alternate universe nazi stories told through several books, videogames, and movies yeah. Are you asking me why the premise to fictional stories about my relatives don't anger me, or how those stories unfolded and made me recognize the past and the efforts of heroes who defied the status quo of the non-fiction reality?
ryutaro's mama
Member
And look how the country born from successful slave revolt was marginalized and left to squalor.
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Kid Kamikaze10
Member
All we have is a bad, ahistorical, and frankly insensitive premise, and showrunners with a reputation of being exploitative and socially unaware.
That is way more than enough to shit on this.
That is way more than enough to shit on this.
I mean, there is already a show like Man in the High Castle where Nazis rule over the USA after WW2 with all their racism intact. And it's perfectly fine. Why should a version about Civil War not be possible or well done by HBO and the GoT producers?
Being skeptical is perfectly fine but I don't get what they are apoligizing for beforehand. Wait and see if it is in good taste or not, the announcement itself didn't tell you if they were going a wrong way.
If they don't do the topic justice though, by all means, go nuts on them.
And the writer of Empire
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1173259/
I love Empire, but the writing is not i want in a show about Slavery
I think the bigger problem is that they're not pretending. They legitimately can't empathize or even sympathize with the idea of people of color finding a prestige HBO show centered around imagining the modern day enslavement of black people disturbing. They think it's a bunch of whining. They literally can't relate or aren't even trying. To them the premise is totally fine.
Because we don't have Daughters of the Third Reich in America but we certainly have Daughters of the Confederacy. They aren't flying Nazi flags outside of several court houses or have giant monuments up to the third Reich in America, they certainly do for confederate flags, symbols and "heroes". If you can't see why something like this touches a lot of raw nerves and hits far closer to home I'm not sure what else to say.
I'm not as historically learned as you seem to be, but I'll play devil's advocate for fun. The south had plenty options between agriculture and textiles, right? And the slave population means that they had quite a cheap labor force. If they were able to import raw materials from somewhere (anywhere) wouldn't that be enough to get some China-type manufacturing going? Plus they have offshore oil - no idea when historically they'd have been able to find it and drill for it given they'd be at a technological disadvantage.
They'd also have easier access to Mexico. If they seceded from the north, who knows what the hell they ended up doing to the south.
cartographer
Member
People are going to ship hot slave owners with their slaves like they ship incestuous relationships on GoT.
Devil's argument is literally wait and see if they further shit on black people before you throw a hissy fit. We get stories almost daily of people shitting black people....but hol'up on this one.
FWIW, City of Thieves and 25th Hour were both pretty great.
Zap Rowsdower
Banned
Because the Nazis lost completely and Germany has been adamant that their ideology never gains ground again. Meanwhile while the Confederates lost the war they still maintained control thanks to Reconstruction failing and still have it. We got an Attorney General that's named after the Confederate president for goodness' sake.
What did he mean by this?
Member
Modern day slavery already exists
what exactly are you imagining for black people though and why should I sit through it
what exactly are you imagining for black people though and why should I sit through it
ryutaro's mama
Member
I love when people are purposefully obtuse.
I know there is tons of media with Nazi alternate universe stories. If one was announced by the GoT showrunners, where one of the main story plot points was, following WW2, half of Germany continued to be Nazis (with concentration camps and experiments continuing to go on, specifically on Jewish people in modern day) would you need to see what the underlying message was in order to be bothered by the concept?
Whompa02
Member
A premise to a story does not bother me as much as how it unfolds, but okay. Sure. I love when people assume their next door liberal neighbor is somehow not on their side because they weren't enraged by a premise.
If your hypothetical premise to a story (which btw has been a similar premise to stories in the past as well) was an HBO miniseries, I'd like to see how the main characters fix that obvious problem too.
I'm not going to join you on the DVD burning before I tear off the plastic around the box. I'd need to know more. Sorry. I hope you can understand that. But like I said, I'm not thrilled at the original Confederate concept either way. It's just not interesting enough a concept.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I'm not interested in getting you "on my side". You brought up your relatives so I laid it out for you and in a relatable hypothetical. You said, regardless, it doesn't bother you. Cool. That's you.
When did the showrunners say any characters were going to "fix" this "problem"?! They have said, in interviews they plan to tell a nuanced story with protagonists on both sides...it was in the original announcement as well.
Calling a concept into question isn't " burning". It is simply that, calling it into question. Based on all the reaction the showrunners are having, they realize this is a problem.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Exactly what I thought. It's far more insidious. There should be no 'nuance' on the subject of slavery - it's wrong and evil, period.
Adam_Vania
Banned
seems like a dumb, bad idea, possibly given the green light simply due to controversy.
better off reading real slave accounts, or watching a documentary on the civil war, these things would be far more educational and enlightening. or, as many have suggested, looking into the way in which slavery is indeed still baked into society (for-profit prisons, farming-and-agricultural labor exploitation, sweat shops/suicical iphone factories).
not that this will stop people from calling this show "important". will it inform? yes but only on alternative realities that do not and never will exist.
better off reading real slave accounts, or watching a documentary on the civil war, these things would be far more educational and enlightening. or, as many have suggested, looking into the way in which slavery is indeed still baked into society (for-profit prisons, farming-and-agricultural labor exploitation, sweat shops/suicical iphone factories).
not that this will stop people from calling this show "important". will it inform? yes but only on alternative realities that do not and never will exist.
BKatastrophe
Member
I'm going to be honest: I don't think there's anything worthwhile here. Alternate "what if the South had succeeded," and "What if the Nazis won?" and "if the Americans lost the Revolution?" Are all so overdone I just don't care. They aren't interesting topics any more.
Especially because I don't think slavery is nuanced. It's a bad thing. We know why people do it and why it's bad. There's nothing else to show. I haven't watched GoT, so its success does nothing to gain me anymore interest in this show.
I get the outrage, and there doesn't seem to be anything redeeming here except for the talent (maybe).
Especially because I don't think slavery is nuanced. It's a bad thing. We know why people do it and why it's bad. There's nothing else to show. I haven't watched GoT, so its success does nothing to gain me anymore interest in this show.
I get the outrage, and there doesn't seem to be anything redeeming here except for the talent (maybe).
It's pretty ridiculous that a lot of folks don't understand why this is insensitive and worthy of skepticism.
I'm Jewish, and if the only way Jewish actors could get work of substance for decades was by doing Holocaust movies, I'd be pissed. If Jewish actors managed to carve out a niche for themselves, to start producing work of real merit outside the Holocaust, to actually reflect the modern Jewish experience, and then a couple gentiles decided to do "What if the Final Solution worked and there were only a few hundred Jews left on Earth?" I'd be pissed. With reason.
Seriously, look inward. Think about why this is hurtful to so many, and think about why your instinct is to deflect and devalue rather than trying to empathize and connect. Yeesh.
I'm Jewish, and if the only way Jewish actors could get work of substance for decades was by doing Holocaust movies, I'd be pissed. If Jewish actors managed to carve out a niche for themselves, to start producing work of real merit outside the Holocaust, to actually reflect the modern Jewish experience, and then a couple gentiles decided to do "What if the Final Solution worked and there were only a few hundred Jews left on Earth?" I'd be pissed. With reason.
Seriously, look inward. Think about why this is hurtful to so many, and think about why your instinct is to deflect and devalue rather than trying to empathize and connect. Yeesh.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I wish black actors refused to even film this shuck n jive bullshit.
The fuck they gonna show? A black woman breastfeeding a white baby while on an iPhone? Yea I don't see how this shit works for me.
The fuck they gonna show? A black woman breastfeeding a white baby while on an iPhone? Yea I don't see how this shit works for me.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Thank you for getting it.
Sunster
Member
modern day slavery is boringggg. we want to see black people in chains again!
oh, and tackle some issues i guess...
ClosingADoor
Member
So they are making a worse version of Spartacus.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I'm very interested to see this show at this point. Shame it is going to be a long wait.
Sunster
Member
except i guarantee you they won't free themselves.
excelsiorlef
Member
Correct
Nah, give it a chance guys!
I forgot where I read or heard about this, but the reason why such shows like this will exist and be accepted is because non-black audiences don't care too much about black people's stories outside of narratives done about slavery. You could even go as far as to say using slavery as a backdrop to write a story is easy since folks have an idea of what kind struggles and hardships slaves faced.
The irony is that if, for example, you had a story that was removed from slavery, and had predominantly non-black characters for it and it was positively received with lots of attention, then that same story being told with predominantly black characters down to the same character arcs, settings, and plots, it would be predicted to do poorly. Folks would see it as a 'black' story only for black people.
But make it about slaves, then you get attention of the masses and not just black people.
It's sad tbh. Black people have to be slaves or criminals to be noticed, regardless of how well-written such characters can be. And on top of that, for a story with black people to be successful, it's either pitched as being for only black people or being a slave narrative so that non-black people can be comfortable with it.
I have a bit more I could say about stories made that are supposed to appeal to 'everyone' and stories that appeal to a black audience (mandated by a corporate marketing team in most cases), but that kinda goes beyond the scope of this thread.
EDIT: There are outliers that do give me hope like with Get Out and Moonlight (still need to see this). N.K. Jemisen is doing great as well despite me not liking The Fifth Season.
The irony is that if, for example, you had a story that was removed from slavery, and had predominantly non-black characters for it and it was positively received with lots of attention, then that same story being told with predominantly black characters down to the same character arcs, settings, and plots, it would be predicted to do poorly. Folks would see it as a 'black' story only for black people.
But make it about slaves, then you get attention of the masses and not just black people.
It's sad tbh. Black people have to be slaves or criminals to be noticed, regardless of how well-written such characters can be. And on top of that, for a story with black people to be successful, it's either pitched as being for only black people or being a slave narrative so that non-black people can be comfortable with it.
I have a bit more I could say about stories made that are supposed to appeal to 'everyone' and stories that appeal to a black audience (mandated by a corporate marketing team in most cases), but that kinda goes beyond the scope of this thread.
EDIT: There are outliers that do give me hope like with Get Out and Moonlight (still need to see this). N.K. Jemisen is doing great as well despite me not liking The Fifth Season.
You know, this discussion is really making someone would make a film adaptation of Malorie Blackman's Noughts and Crosses book series, which is set in an alternate world where Africa become the world's dominant power, leading them to African people taking European people as slaves...leading to a 21st Century world where segregation continues to exist between blacks and whites, with whites being the ones often relegated to socially inferior positions within that specific society.
I feel a faithful adaption of that series could be a much more interesting alternate history story to watch play out on screen, and far less problematic than what HBO is trying to do here.
I feel a faithful adaption of that series could be a much more interesting alternate history story to watch play out on screen, and far less problematic than what HBO is trying to do here.
I'd rather see High Man in White Castle.
It's interesting how "both sides" have gone after this. We have people here and elsewhere raising legitimate concerns on how the topic will be handled or that they are very uncomfortable with the premise. And then we have people whining how HBO will portray all the southerners as bad guys and all the slave owners "mistreating" their slaves. Or how they wont show irish slaves too.
I think how the producers have handled race before is what has some people concerned
Basically why I don't trust a word from D&D about this show.
VeryGooster
Banned
Implications and baggage aside, I can't help but feel like this show has a lazy premise to start with.
But man it's unfortunate some people still fall back on "IT'S JUST FICTION" especially when the fiction is rooted in or at least influenced by history, things that actually happened, and doing.... something.... with it.
And yeah, I wouldn't want D&D running this show either.
But man it's unfortunate some people still fall back on "IT'S JUST FICTION" especially when the fiction is rooted in or at least influenced by history, things that actually happened, and doing.... something.... with it.
And yeah, I wouldn't want D&D running this show either.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Folks are gonna lose their collective minds over Wakanda.
Hari Seldon
Member
Sunster
Member
lol the old irish slavery myth. created solely to tell black people to shut up.
I'm not going to use the word 'retarded' but while I don't disagree, I think it's more telling again that black folks would be better off making stories for themselves as opposed to making a story meant for black people that anyone non-black could get into. But then, wouldn't that be on the non-black people to what to get into a story about black people as opposed to black stories catering to them?
And then that begs the question of what is a black story, which such do exist, but I feel that's where we start putting black audiences in buckets and I'd rather not bring that topic up ITT.
One of my favorite movies.
It's called The Single Story, when another culture gets to tell the story of your culture. They find one narrative, loaded with prejudice and ignorance and other things, and tell that one story over and over. So it becomes the only story that gets told about your whole culture and history. The story of African Americans will forever be slave stories. the story of Mexican Americans will forever be immigrant stories, etc. White culture is telling the narrative and defining the single story of other cultures.
What? Are we just ignoring that Arnold was black?