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German Federal Elections 2017 |OT| Electing the new leader of the free world
- Thread starter Xando
- Start date
The funding is already there. It just needs to be spend efficiently instead of some shitty afternoon occupation therapy like i had in my time in school.I know, I said these programms still need more funding
Which it isn't in many, many places all over the world, which should be obvious to anyone who takes a look. Especially if you are a woman. Being a migrant in Germany can easily mean that you are now getting any higher education or even any education at all, especially as a woman. My grandmother couldn't even read, nor did anyone think that it should have been necessary for her to be able to read. Because in some parts of the world, women are only supposed to stay at home and raise children.
Moreover, as has already been said, a lot of the reasons for the tendency of people to retain the educational level of their parents has nothing to do with infrastructure or funding. Unless someone thinks that you can just pay parents to inspire a value for education in their kids.
The actual infrastructure in Germany is good and it's basically free. Of course it is not perfect, but a lot of hyperbole in this thread about the alleged state of Germany is getting ridiculous. Anyone who really thinks that Germany needs "basic worker rights" has never spend a minute studying Germany's massive array of established laws or social safety nets in this area. Again, something that a majority of people in the world would envy us for. Again, of course it's not perfect, but to devalue Germany's achievements with such hyperbole is ridiculous.
They could move! And I'm serious about that, I'd move across the country and leave my job, friends etc. behind before I let my kid go to a Hauptschule. Realschule would be an option if he or she really couldn't make it at the gymnasium but Hauptschule? No way!
I remember when I was in primary school, my parents told my I could pick my new school for fifth grade and because my best friend was going to the Hauptschule I announced I wanted to go there too. I still remember my mother's face, there was a moment of silence before she told me I was going to go to the gymnasium. Turned out when they said I'd get to choose my school what they really meant was l'd get to choose between two gymnasiums.
By sixth grade my former best friend and I no longer talked to each other, gymnasiasten and Hauptschüler don't really interact unless they have to, there's without a doubt a divide and while it's possible to cross over it doesn't happen that often in my experience.
I remember a girl from the Realschule who attended our gymnasium starting with the 11th grade, she was nice but we felt she lacked education, she had only learned one foreign language for example while most of us were starting the third (which is a weird criticism but that was the bubble we lived in).
Where did I argue that social background has nothing to do with the school of choice?
Well, I'm personally more a fan of trinominal courses instead of trinominal schools (because most people have favourite topics where they excel in), but at least the integrated schools (Gesamtschule) that already exist where I went to school got disastrous results in the central A-level exams.
I don't know what schools you are talking about, but from my personal experience with both Gymnasiums and integrated schools, you are more encouraged to think for yourself in the latter, while it's sufficient to memorise stuff in the former.
I'm not saying that's everywhere the case, especially since education varies wildly between states and the schools themselves, but the same is true regarding your argument.
It's a fact integrated schools work in other countries (and at least in parts of Germany as well) and the countries with the best regarded education systems use it (like Scandinavian countries). If it doesn't work in certain areas the problem is the execution, funding and state backing and not the general idea behind it.
funnily i was in a similar situation with my best friend. he went to Hauptschule while i attended Gymnasium. However we are still best buddies and the divide of schools never affected us(And i was known as the only "Gymnasiast" who could enter the Hauptschule without being beat up lol) . But I know that divide and it should be removed.
basically this. Gesamtschulen are a much better way and should become the standard. It would also help closing the problems with funding if the school system is more centralized (1 school campus instead of 3 if we take infrastructure/modernization of equipment as an example)
Well, I was part of the first "Zentralabitur" in North Rhine-Westphalia back in 2007. The Gesamtschulen taking part in this did really, really badly. As in, some schools in my city had an average below the passing grade. Dunno if that changed over the years.
We had that discussion already in another thread. Basically:
The social mobility is there. If your parents fail at using the system, blame them, not the system. If your parents sit in front of the TV all day, chances are that you will end up the same because no one really bothers with you. If that's what you see every day, it's no surprise at all. You can still make something out of yourself if you pay attention in school and learn etc. It's not hard at all.
And what ElTorro said is right. A co-worker of mine immigrated with her family (parents + 2 young girls) from Iran to Germany by foot. She went to school, learnt German, went to the Gymnasium, then studied, twice. She would definitely shake her head at what people are writing here.
Sure, the school system isn't perfect, or even really good. In some states children enter their second school after their fourth year which is way too early. They still haven't fixed the different curricula in the different states. But having different forms of schools is certainly not one of them. If anything, it's good because it keeps children from dragging others down too much. I went to school to learn something. If there had been some who would disrupt the lessons every so often, giving stupid remarks etc, would that have benefited us? Certainly not. Sure, it's bad for the people who end up in the Realschule and realize at a later point that they should have done more for school. But at least you can still attend Sekundarstufe II after finishing Realschule or Gesamtschule and get your Abitur or Fachhochschulreife. And no, my parents aren't exactly well educated or anything. They also didn't help with school or gave support in any way.
The social mobility is there. If your parents fail at using the system, blame them, not the system. If your parents sit in front of the TV all day, chances are that you will end up the same because no one really bothers with you. If that's what you see every day, it's no surprise at all. You can still make something out of yourself if you pay attention in school and learn etc. It's not hard at all.
And what ElTorro said is right. A co-worker of mine immigrated with her family (parents + 2 young girls) from Iran to Germany by foot. She went to school, learnt German, went to the Gymnasium, then studied, twice. She would definitely shake her head at what people are writing here.
Sure, the school system isn't perfect, or even really good. In some states children enter their second school after their fourth year which is way too early. They still haven't fixed the different curricula in the different states. But having different forms of schools is certainly not one of them. If anything, it's good because it keeps children from dragging others down too much. I went to school to learn something. If there had been some who would disrupt the lessons every so often, giving stupid remarks etc, would that have benefited us? Certainly not. Sure, it's bad for the people who end up in the Realschule and realize at a later point that they should have done more for school. But at least you can still attend Sekundarstufe II after finishing Realschule or Gesamtschule and get your Abitur or Fachhochschulreife. And no, my parents aren't exactly well educated or anything. They also didn't help with school or gave support in any way.
? People create the divide themselves, so removing it is what they can do whenever they want. Unless you want to tell me that children have absolutely no time after school to mingle?
yes sure. but it would be easier if these kids would all mingle in the same school. Hence the argument for Gesamtschulen. Children of all educational paths could easier mingle there.
That's not really an argument, in my opinion. Sure, it's easier but...that's all? On the other hand, you have the downside of what I've mentioned above.
Also, why Gesamtschule? Where I come from, that's where the really bad kids went to (who are almost 4 or worse, only one kid from our class had to go there). We had no Hauptschule...and I guess worse would only have been the Förderschule. Though, Gesamtschule and Realschule eventually merged to the Oberschule because of less and less children.
Also, these days it's easier than ever to stay in contact after Grundschule. Pretty much everyone has a smartphone now after all (apart from just visiting the other person etc).
Muffin1611
Banned
There's plenty to criticize of the current system.
For example, my gf is in a situation where she isn't getting any replies to her job applications, most likely because her missing hours on her school report are fucked up because of an absence she had to take (therapy).
At the same time the Jobcenter isn't doing shit. She needs to work to get elegible for Kindergeld again. She isn't getting it right now.
She should have attended a meeting in December (!!!), that would have allowed the jobcenter to put her up for job offers.
The meeting was of course cancelled by the jobcenter because "not enough people planned to attend".
To this day the jobcenter hasn't done shit, and her contact has told her over and over that there's nothing he can do and she just has to wait.
For example, my gf is in a situation where she isn't getting any replies to her job applications, most likely because her missing hours on her school report are fucked up because of an absence she had to take (therapy).
At the same time the Jobcenter isn't doing shit. She needs to work to get elegible for Kindergeld again. She isn't getting it right now.
She should have attended a meeting in December (!!!), that would have allowed the jobcenter to put her up for job offers.
The meeting was of course cancelled by the jobcenter because "not enough people planned to attend".
To this day the jobcenter hasn't done shit, and her contact has told her over and over that there's nothing he can do and she just has to wait.
Yeah, the Jobcenter and all that is completely messed up. I really don't think anyone would disagree here.
Had the pleasure of that last year, when I let my work contract run out and was looking for an apartment in an actual city. I didn't even get a single day of free time after work ended. Thursday the contract ran out, Friday I was at the Agentur für Arbeit, Monday the...whatever they call it started for me, thanks. Commute was 40km each day, only to sit there all day twiddling my thumbs. But hey, we also did useful things like baking waffles...because, why not? Pretty much everyone there agreed that it was a waste of time and usually, people were in similar situations (recently without a job, but at least they had a week or two before they had to attend this).
Don't you get that as long as you write applications?
hanspampel
Banned
have a look at Bavaria, NRW and Berlin
how those are doing different and all that stuff.
probably because they're rules for decades from the Einheitspartein
and that is exactly what the Germans (or at least the vast majority) wants.
someone to administrate the country well. not a political and ideologic leader.
Germany has a history with that kind of stuff and it turned out horrible in 1933
our big and most voted partys are all centric. SPD, FDP and Union
and i'm fucking glad about that, so we don't have to deal with all those extremist nonsense on the left and right to any meaningful degree.
i never said they fight some alleged constructed inequality. that is exactly the difference i talk about.
FDP was always about the individual, self-determination, equality as a fundamental value and right. you don't fight inequality with inequality.
Die Grünen are the perfect example of this done wrong.
at least 50% of their fraction has to be women. more women than man is okay. more man than women, not.
a leader of the party has to be a woman. a woman and a man is okay. 2 women is okay.
2 man is not okay.
Lucumo revealing again he doesn't know shit about the subject he is talking about. I mean seriously, every single part of your argument is wrong and those are not even controversial topics among experts. You just decided to enter a discussion you know nothing about and write down your flat out wrong bullshit. Ever heard of equal opportunity? Fun fact: If you're dependent on the knowledge and expertise of your precarious parents, there is none. Another fun fact: most of those parents work their asses off to somehow keep their family afloat and don't watch TV all day long. You can really tell from your posts, that you have no experience with poor people whatsoever. Also, yeah, no shit, it's easy to keep contact in theory. Those people going to different school forms aligning with their socio-economic backgrounds (because, again, equal opportunity is a myth), though. Our school system stabilise the separation of those socio-economic milieus and are actually the reason there is less overlap. They're are also the reason for your lack of empathy and general ignorance.
https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/social-mobility-opportunities-particularly-poor-germany/
https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/social-mobility-opportunities-particularly-poor-germany/
So I guess my family wasn't/isn't poor then? Damn, I should tell my father that he totally doesn't have to default because some guy in a forum said so. And if your parents are hard-working, that's always a plus for the child because parents are a role-model most of the time and thus the child is way more likely to work hard compared to a child whose parents sit at home all day. You really are bsing here. Statistics don't mean anything. If 80% (just taking some random number) of the children of migrants end up on the Hauptschule is that inherently due to their background or is it because of arbitrary lines, drawn because of their culture by themselves? Do you think if migrants with different ethics would migrate here, it would be the same? Certainly not. Children end up the way they do most of the time because of their parents and the environment. They can get out of this by themselves but it's really hard. If you are a parent, you can just step away from the "environment". And don't tell me there are no possiblities for poor families to help educate their children.
You'll get my apologies, after I've told my boyfriend we shouldn't be able marry, because some guy from Neogaf said, we actually don't want anyway. And I really wonder how someone like you can possibly be the offspring of a poor family. You've taken the neoliberal bootstrap mentality to the heart, jeez. Guess your parents didn't work hard enough, then.
It's not a plus, when said parents don't have any time and/ or mental capacity to support their child anymore. It's not a plus, when the parents are not able to shield the child from their precarious situation they are in, so that it grows up with a general feeling of hopelessness to ever have a better life. And believe it or not, the fact that children are separated at 10 into different school forms doesn't actually help.
I'm a teacher, what's your qualification on the matter?
No? I'm not? You're missing the point completely. The fact that the background of the parents have such a huge impact on the education their child will receive is in and of itself enough to determine the inequality of opportunity in our system
Yeah and that's the problem. Got it?
Doesn't have anything to do with the families economic status, but with their education (which unfortunately often align). If systems are in place that don't get used by those whose children would need them (either because the parents don't know about them OR because they don't care) that's a flaw inherent in the system.
Where did I say that again?
Mental capacity isn't tied to social class. Even if you are in the lower class, it doesn't mean that you aren't smart and/or don't know what is best for someone else (such as your child).
And I said earlier that separating the children after four years is too early, it should be after six, like in some states.
I've had my fair share of pedagogy classes. Me working in the health care sector probably doesn't help, I guess. Though, I don't believe in just because someone has a job in something, he is actually competent (teachers are a perfect example for that even).
What background are we talking about? Migrant background or being poor? Both are hugely different. And as I said, migrant background would matter a lot less if they wouldn't draw the lines around them themselves. If people migrate because they want a better life for their children, they will probably encourage said children. If they don't care because traditions say X and Y, then that's their fault and not the fault of the system. If teachers at the Grundschule encourage all children to learn and prosper while the parents drag them down, is that the fault of the system? Nah. If you don't want your child to succeed, it is, as said already, likely that it won't. But no one is going to change that unless you want to forbid parents raising their children.
That's what I've said all day long. Social mobility refers to low income class getting to a higher income class. And low income class doesn't equal parents being terrible parents.
Those systems are also taught by schools, so parents not knowing about them isn't an argument.
And someone mentioned Kitas earlier, that's more a problem in the West where it was usual that the man worked while the woman stayed at home, raising the child. The East had (has?) Kitas for everyone.
Haha, that insult. I've seen it time and time again that you succeed most of the time if you are working hard. So people whining instead of doing something is not something I'm delighted to see.
Nice OT!
But you forgot to mention the candidate from Die Partei, Serdar Somuncu!
And before someone mentions that he has no chance of winning, well, if THAT'S an exclusion criterion then posting a pic from Merkel would have done the trick as well.
Wait what, Serdar is a candidate???
Muffin1611
Banned
You need to be registered as "searching for work/training" at the Agentur für Arbeit, which you apparently only are able to after you had that meeting. I think it's some kind of Eignungstest or the like, and you can only write it in groups (at least that's how it is at the local one).
Bitch Pudding
Member
Yes, he is.
He got me at condemnation of vegan life. /s
https://www.merkur.de/politik/parte...ncu-will-bundeskanzler-werden-zr-7038115.html
Wow, that's even more terrible than it was some years ago. At some point you could just write applications and show them proof of that (a few each month were enough). But I guess they got rid of it because it can easily be abused? Never heard of the "Eignungstest" there either. Usually they do that in their stupid seminars or if she wasn't in training so far, at the "Berufsvorbereitende Bildungsmaßnahme".
Has she tried changing her advisor (if he/she is failing to do the job properly)?
Muffin1611
Banned
She got her advisor to make a new entry of her in case she fell through the bureaucracy somewhere. Last month or something I think.
That's about it.
Seems more like she fell already through. Did she complete her training or just school? If it's just the latter, she can do the "Berufsvorbereitende Bildungsmaßnahme" which is mostly a waste of time but that should get her her Kindergeld. She would also get some money and travel cost. If it's the former...that would be weird. As I said, "Eignungstests" are not really done there and under normal circumstances, I don't see why she doesn't qualify for getting job offers.
You guys should really try asking a different advisor. Usually, at least some humane people work there who help when the system fails (or the advisor).
Also, the longer you are in that machine, the worse it will get. Eventually it will come to a halt unless you are pushing and being annoying. Alternatively, one can adapt and use and abuse the system (which I obviously don't recommend).
By the way, the reaction of conservative and also some liberal media and corporate structures to Schulz arguing for tiny, tiny reforms on Hartz4 were already very telling. They went completely apeshit ("What about muh freedom", "we don't need socialism etc".). You can see with Corbyn what happens when a candidate goes full-on leftwing, they throw everything in their arsenal at him.
Muffin1611
Banned
I just searched for the letter she got back then. It's called "psychologischer Berufswahltest". Takes about 4 hours.
She "completed" just school, no training. She has the school part of Hochschulreife. Would have to do a 1 year internship somewhere to have complete Hochschulreife I think?
Hmm, I'm not 100% sure but I think some people (they were mostly from the Förderschule, Hauptschule etc though) had to take that test before beginning (or in the beginning of) the "Berufsvorbereitende Bildungsmaßnahme". They had to travel rather far for that stupid test, so I'm surprised that wasn't an option for her. But I guess it also has something to do with the time of the year. They did that test in August/September, so in the beginning of the "school year". Outside of that it's probably harder to organize.
Not really sure anymore, but I think it was like completing a training or an internship for one year and some other possiblities. It probably depends on the state she is in though. You also have to fill out some forms after that to get the proper recognition. I know it because I was in a pretty similar situation and I still haven't done it (wouldn't know what to study anyway).
ClosingADoor
Member
Germany is in pretty good shape, so the leader gets credit. And when you compare German politics to pretty much all their surrounding countries and their elections and other issues over the last years, it is hard not to see Merkel as competent at least. Poland and Hungary have their leaders being a bit too power hungry, France, Austria, Holland had pretty popular far right parties and politicians happening, the UK is leaving the EU. Germany seems very much at peace politically compared to that and that is nice to see at the moment.
those things don't exist in a vacuum though... Germany's good shape can, arguably, also be attributed to them leeching of their neighbours in one way or the other.
Whatever the case, Merkel certainly gets way to much credit, especially as someone who is known to avoid making any concrete statements or decisions. She just closes her eyes and hopes for the best. That's here politics in a nutshell
Funny, because that is what everyone but Merkel did during the refugee crisis.
Qft.
Was going to right a response myself.
Agenda 2010, Hartz Laws, situation got a lot worse..
ClosingADoor
Member
Do you mean she closes her eyes on internal issues? Because internationally it seems Germany under her is making quite the name for itself and she is making the right moves.
The trade balance is a thing they need to fix to some extend, so they don't hoard money in Germany that they get from other EU countries. But I don't think she played much of a role in the political landscape of the neighboring countries.
Honestly, the way Merkel handled the refugee crisis reminded me a lot how Merkel reacted towards the Fukushima incident. Suddenly making a move into the different direction, where she was before and making a seemingly popular decision.
And yes I think Merkel was like the rest of EU actually hoping they could keep refugees keep away from their borders as long as possible.
Frankfurter
Member
The comparison to Fukushima is terrible! The reversal of the nuclear policy after the Fukushima incident was the safe choice, nuclear was unpopular anyway and there was no interest from anyone in building new nuclear power plants.
In the refugee crisis, Merkel choose the hard and risky path, instead of the safe and easy one.
Your last sentence just doesn't make any sense at all, considering how she sort of actively "invited" people to come to Germany.
This....what.
Yes. That's the one big exception that confused everyone. Maybe her personal history and beliefs played into that one more than usual.
Lets also not forget that she made a deal with dictator and aspiring fascist Erdogan to keep refugees away from Europe who now have to suffer under heavy discrimination in Turkey or get stuck elsewhere, while Erdogan loves to use the whole thing as effective blackmail against Germany and Europe. CDU is also busy declaring Afghanistan and similar countries "completely safe" so they can throw lots of people out again. Inhumane deportations still happen regularily in Germany, even to people who live with their family here for DECADES and are in all but official paperwork German citizens. Children get send to countries they never set foot in previously. This is not all on Merkel, but "Loving Mother Merkel" was always a fantasy, especially a right-wing one.
It's really funny how Non-GermanGAF is now on the Merkel train when she and Schäuble were (rightfully) the bad guys here before the refugee crisis and during the Greece crisis.
He is right. Merkel turned heel because she knew continuing nuclear energy after Fukushima would be political suicide in Germany. Nothing about the facts had changed at all. It was entirely due to adapting to the mainstream opinion, and that's the thing Merkel is very good at, ever since she crashed hard with her hardcore neoliberal program back in 2005 and almost lost the election to a rambling Schröder. The refugee crisis was the first and probably last time she ever did anything risky or visionary.
I was more talking about the refugee crisis before it happened. There was already a rise in refugees starting in 2013 and 2014. During that time it seemed for me at least that Merkel like the rest of the EU just hoped to keep them away.
Also I'm wouldn't say that she choose the risky path. Merkel welcomed people when refugees already were within the EU. In Budapest etc. The news were full of this topic and first it seemed like the general public were for a humanitarian act considering how other countries handled it. And then she decided to go for it. I'm glad she did.
And of course you are right, that it wasn't as simple as Fukushima, because of the xenophobic blowback that happened. But I doubt there would have been an easy alternative at that point. I think if no one within the EU would have been welcoming. The crisis would have ended been an actual mess.
The thing is I wanted to say with that comparison is that I think it was quite typical for her. She adapted towards the situation and I think the public opinion about the crisis around August/September 2015 also was what drove her to that decision.
But I feel like I accidental derailed this thread. To be honest, I don't know what I should think of this year election yet. I expect the Union parties in the goverment again. It seems for me like it will be mostly a question who is gonna the coalition partner going to be. But probably I'm wrong and SPD might still have a chance to form a coalition. But I'm not sure. That would be hard at this moment.
the refugee crisis was a prime example of her doing nothing. Just put her head in the sand and pretended nothing happened - she just sat it out, hoped for the best and let all the other countries along the route "handle" it for her.
The other countries, did exactly the opposite - they reacted. Some of them more extreme than others. Not that I agree with them, but pretending Merkel did anything is just derisory.
No, the reason she's popular is simply because she doesn't do politics. She just exists... and somehow everybody can live with that. She's just the lowest, common denominator everybody can somehow agree on.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Not really. If you go to the 2013 election thread you can see the reactions were mixed but mostly positive.
Can't wait to come back home to the motherland to help improving the already well running China-Germany ties, in an attempt to generate better win-win-results for both countries.
China and Germany <3
Frankfurter
Member
Governmental influence on the well-being of the economy is vastly overestimated, and Merkel never did change or implement much in that regard anyway.
As I already argued, GDP is no useful measure for how well-off a society is on its own. Look at wages, pensions in relation to living costs, housing and renting costs, crime rates, homelessness rates, state of infrastructure and education, wealth distribution. Judging it by the GDP is the epitome of trickle-down economy centered views.
SPON poll released today
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...miserable-werte-spon-wahltrend-a-1153056.html
Good to see AFD going down and i wonder how low SPD can fall (sub 20% someone?)
Lost 10-11% since the end of march and doesn't look like anything is stopping the fall
Edit:
Another poll from today
CDU/CSU 40%
SPD 24%
FDP 10.5%
LINKE 8.5%
GRN 7%
AfD 6.5%
http://m.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bu...-schwarz-gelbe-mehrheit-im-bund-15069700.html
Black and yellow, anyone?
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...miserable-werte-spon-wahltrend-a-1153056.html
Good to see AFD going down and i wonder how low SPD can fall (sub 20% someone?)
Lost 10-11% since the end of march and doesn't look like anything is stopping the fall
Edit:
Another poll from today
CDU/CSU 40%
SPD 24%
FDP 10.5%
LINKE 8.5%
GRN 7%
AfD 6.5%
http://m.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bu...-schwarz-gelbe-mehrheit-im-bund-15069700.html
Black and yellow, anyone?
hanspampel
Banned
after the initial drop off, SPD is now losing votes to the small parties like FDP, Grüne, Linke and others, going by your graph
Patrick Bateman
Member
Seeing AfD go sub 5.0 would be amazing.
They might not even be electable in niedersachsen.
http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/AfD-Niedersachsen-reicht-Landesliste-ein,afd1170.html