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"Aggressive vegans" are putting off people from changing eating habits, study finds

Octavia

Unconfirmed Member
Maybe people seem to mostly identify "aggressive vegans" because those are the only ones that speak up, and the vast vast majority of vegans don't say anything and go about their own business like normal human beings...

How can someone tell you they are a normal non-annoying vegan if the very nature of being a normal non-annoying vegan is to shut up and stay quiet?
 

Circinus

Member
At the end of the day they're just animals, and people were designed to eat meat. I have never given a penny to an animal charity and never will until the day all human diseases are cured.
Humans are designed to eat meat along with other things, while I respect a persons decision to veer away from it, they have no right to try and interfere with my life. I couldn't care less about their opinion of what i'm eating. Just like an overweight person who is eating cake shouldn't have someone jump down their throat because of the calorie content, get over it. I'm not ignorant to the fact i'm eating animals, I simply choose to do it, vegans often act like they have some sort of revelation to display, it's like religious cultist.

I assume you mean people are "evolutionary adapted to" eat meat. That's of course a fact. Whether an organism is a carnivore, herbivore or omnivore is a characteristic that is based on observations. Organisms do whatever they do to survive and reproduce. An organism that is part of a species considered omnivore changing its diet to a vegan diet doesn't contradict that. Organisms do whatever the basic laws of nature allows them to do.

So I just think people should realize that this is neither an argument for veganism/eating meat than it is one.

Humans are also "designed" (as you would say it) to be extremely effective at murdering each other. I think you would agree that this should not have any bearings on what we should, as society, consider morally acceptable. (note: I am NOT saying this is equivalent to eating meat, I am just saying that empirical observations on the humans as a species shouldn't have any bearings what we deem morally right/wrong!)


All the facts! Are you maybe a vegan? Humanity pretty much just recently exceeded the life expections of our mainly animal hunting ancestors.

Don't worry I'll dissect your reply one by one with facts.

Needless to say "our ancestors" covers a very broad range of organisms; it goes from your parents all the way up to from the very first single-celled form of life that formed 4.25 billion years ago. It's easy to imagine that a lot of change can occur over such an enormous periode of time. We know there's such as evolution of course, right. It can also go very fast. (but we also know that it can occur over a very short amount of time, significant evolutionary adaptions in response to different available food sources have been observed to occur over just a couple of decades in a species of lizard e.g. : https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm )

Assuming you're talking about the more recent human ancestors from the genera australopithecus and later of course homo, then first of all it should be noted that the exact dietary make-up is not completely known and would of course likely vary based on specific population, point in time, season, geography, climate. Organisms that are struggling to survive generally eat whatevery they can find that is somewhat palatable (which is even more true for omnivorous organisms that early australopithecus and homo species were)

But, even based on what we do know, it is generally considered among paleontologists that fruits and plants were dietary staples and that meat in some degree was eaten from 3 to 2 million years ago.
The vegetables we eat today exist because our ancestors at some point cultivated them because they ate them.. Do you think humans from tens of thousands of years ago were really just all the way selectively breeding vegetables just so the only humans that live today would have vegetables to eat? Of course not. They started cultivating them because they were already eating their wild ancestors..

Real edible wild fruits and vegetables are rare? What a load of nonsense. How many edible plants or parts of plants that are edible is an interesting question, on which there's surprisingly little data, not even estimates. There are 290 000 known species of angiosperma (flowering, fruiting plants) in the world... According to the FAO there are at least 20 000 known edible plants in the world, but keep in mind we don't even know exactly might be edible. Most plants simply have not been studied scientifically to assess their edibility, because we rely on a few key species for worldwide food production (the same goes for animals too by the way).
 
Convenient excuse. Never met an aggressive vegan in my life and I know plenty of vegans/vegetarians. Probably hurt feelings from someone online.
 

hiryu2015

Member
The first vegan I ever met was very vocal and aggressive about the whole thing. The first chance we got, a friend and I went to a steakhouse.
 

Nephtis

Member
I am actually considering "going vegan" two times a week or do, for balance more than anything. The other days though? Bring that delicious steak.
 

h1nch

Member
I'm friends with vegans and none of them exhibit this behavior. If I want to enjoy their company I'll make sure we go eat at a vegan friendly place. Hell I tend to enjoy vegan restaurants because the dietary restriction often times forces an additional level of creativity and innovation to produce dishes that taste great. Being an omnivore means I get the best of both worlds!

Sometimes I want to eat some good ass BBQ or steak and guess what? My vegan friends aren't getting an invite, and that's totally fine.

I can't stand when meat-eaters give vegan folks shit for their dietary choices, just like I can't stand vegans who think it's ok to call out someone who eats meat and lecture them. People who exhibit either of these behaviors can go fuck themselves.
 

Trace

Banned
Personally I'm just wondering how long until we start serving cat/dog/horse meat in restaurants. I want to taste what a good chef could do with that.
 

Kalamoj

Member
Personally I'm just wondering how long until we start serving cat/dog/horse meat in restaurants. I want to taste what a good chef could do with that.
Horse meat is not rare at all. It has quite a good taste, but not something I'd eat every day.
 
that's total bullshit, btw. Natural equilibrium is achieved through starving to death most of the time

Have you seen The Matrix trilogy? I've pondered my response to your post for a solid 10 minutes but I just can't think of a reply because everything I start to write just seems to be pure common sense and not worth writing.

The point is that humans are different. They don't simply starve, they over come through intelligence and technology.
 
Man I would love to become vegan if I had any willpower but there is no way in hell I can give up so much. Most vegans I've met are cool bit I have run across the ones that won't shut up about all the phony science health benefits
 

DOWN

Banned
663326
 

Violet_0

Banned
Have you seen The Matrix trilogy? I've pondered my response to your post for a solid 10 minutes but I just can't think of a reply because everything I start to write just seems to be pure common sense and not worth writing.

The point is that humans are different. They don't simply starve, they over come through intelligence and technology.
back when the movies were released. I don't recall the exact context of this scene, I'm just going by what's said in that pic

the bullshit part is claiming that every other mammal species develops an instinct that will keep their population in check. It happens in nature, sure, but mammals overpopulate in their natural habitats all the time around the globe. There isn't such a thing as natural equilibrium, for that matter. Nature is in context flux, species die out and are replaced with others, environments change
 

Toxi

Banned
Our ancestors had barely access to etable plants because whatever vegetable you eat was at least cultivated for hundreds of years.
Real eatable wild fruits and vegetables are rare and barely provide anything to eat.

So meat was the way to go for our ancestors (ignoring the question how big of an argument that is in the first place) - something we can still see today, where groups are still living in hunter communities.
What? People evolved from herbivores into omnivores, not carnivores. Those communities you refer to are usually hunter-gatherers, not just hunters, because a significant part of the human diet has usually been the edible plants. And after the development of agriculture, many societies barely ate meat, especially for the lower classes.
 

Circinus

Member
Maybe people seem to mostly identify "aggressive vegans" because those are the only ones that speak up, and the vast vast majority of vegans don't say anything and go about their own business like normal human beings...

How can someone tell you they are a normal non-annoying vegan if the very nature of being a normal non-annoying vegan is to shut up and stay quiet?

Yep, this basically: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
The necessity of electronic devices is a lot higher than meat. I'd advocate better working conditions for them, there's nothing about electronics that requires cruelty to be made.

People that go around unwilling to cut back on meat despite the catastrophic effects on the environment, thinking that animal's don't deserve any better than factory farms are absolutely disgusting. You don't have to stop eating meat, just be mindful of how much
The necessity of cooking vegetables is less than either, but if a vegan eats boiled soy beans are they a complete asshole for not considering the catastrophic effects on the environment?

PS the "I'd advocate for better working conditions" argument is exactly the same as the "I would like for them to treat animals humanely" argument. Its just disguised apathy.
 

y2dvd

Member
Vegetarian lifestyle is fairly achievable by leading a regular lifestyle. You can go to Taco Bell for example and have a decent meal.

Being Vegan means rejecting animal products and animal by-products. That's where life becomes much more difficult and costly.

Yeah vegetarian definitely feels achievable. I'm still cheating quite a bit with my meat intake, but I feel in due time I could cut it completely. I do realize vegan is taking it to another level that I'm far away from if ever getting to that point.
 

Wiped89

Member
I assume you mean people are "evolutionary adapted to" eat meat. That's of course a fact. Whether an organism is a carnivore, herbivore or omnivore is a characteristic that is based on observations. Organisms do whatever they do to survive and reproduce. An organism that is part of a species considered omnivore changing its diet to a vegan diet doesn't contradict that. Organisms do whatever the basic laws of nature allows them to do.

So I just think people should realize that this is neither an argument for veganism/eating meat than it is one.

Humans are also "designed" (as you would say it) to be extremely effective at murdering each other. I think you would agree that this should not have any bearings on what we should, as society, consider morally acceptable. (note: I am NOT saying this is equivalent to eating meat, I am just saying that empirical observations on the humans as a species shouldn't have any bearings what we deem morally right/wrong!)




Don't worry I'll dissect your reply one by one with facts.

Needless to say "our ancestors" covers a very broad range of organisms; it goes from your parents all the way up to from the very first single-celled form of life that formed 4.25 billion years ago. It's easy to imagine that a lot of change can occur over such an enormous periode of time. We know there's such as evolution of course, right. It can also go very fast. (but we also know that it can occur over a very short amount of time, significant evolutionary adaptions in response to different available food sources have been observed to occur over just a couple of decades in a species of lizard e.g. : https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm )

Assuming you're talking about the more recent human ancestors from the genera australopithecus and later of course homo, then first of all it should be noted that the exact dietary make-up is not completely known and would of course likely vary based on specific population, point in time, season, geography, climate. Organisms that are struggling to survive generally eat whatevery they can find that is somewhat palatable (which is even more true for omnivorous organisms that early australopithecus and homo species were)

But, even based on what we do know, it is generally considered among paleontologists that fruits and plants were dietary staples and that meat in some degree was eaten from 3 to 2 million years ago.
The vegetables we eat today exist because our ancestors at some point cultivated them because they ate them.. Do you think humans from tens of thousands of years ago were really just all the way selectively breeding vegetables just so the only humans that live today would have vegetables to eat? Of course not. They started cultivating them because they were already eating their wild ancestors..

Real edible wild fruits and vegetables are rare? What a load of nonsense. How many edible plants or parts of plants that are edible is an interesting question, on which there's surprisingly little data, not even estimates. There are 290 000 known species of angiosperma (flowering, fruiting plants) in the world... According to the FAO there are at least 20 000 known edible plants in the world, but keep in mind we don't even know exactly might be edible. Most plants simply have not been studied scientifically to assess their edibility, because we rely on a few key species for worldwide food production (the same goes for animals too by the way).

Well duh. Evolution is scientific fact, I'm certainly not arguing against that. When I say designed I mean through millions of years of evolution.

And also, yeah I never said humans are carnivores. We are omnivores and need fruit and veg in our diet. It's not mutually exclusive, and evidence of fruit and veg cultivation through history is proof of exactly nothing. They did it to get access to more food... not to give birth to veganism.

But we are designed to eat meat just as a lion is designed to eat the gazelle. We evolved to hunt animals, even though we probably could have survived on vegetation alone. The truth is that animals provided more proteins and fats which in turn helped people grow stronger and hunt more. There were scientific, evolutionary reasons we chose to eat meat, and as a species we will continue to do so.

Your point about murder makes no sense too. If someone breaks into your house with you inside, has a knife and threatens your family, you *would* injure or possibly straight up kill him if you had to. And you're designed through the release of adrenaline to do just that. We would also view that decision as morally right too.

The point is we as a species are supposed to eat meat, and even though you can cobble together a balanced diet through veganism through the miracle of capitalism, eating meat is the simplest and most preferred solution for humanity because it's what our bodies have literally been designed to do inside and out for millions of years.
 

GYODX

Member
Meat eaters are much worse generally. Can't go ten seconds without wanking themselves over bacon and are incapable of even having a little bit of emapthy or respect for the animal they're stuffing down their gob in the name of their taste buds.
In the name of my nutrition, more like.
 

Mendrox

Member
I don't give a fuck what YOU are eating, but don't give me that vegan presentation near me. I hate these people that think they are better for not eating meat and animal by products. Do your own thing.
 

opoth

Banned
Aggressive advocacy of anything is a huge turnoff to me, it makes me check out on what you're selling immediately. I look at craft beer in a similar way, i love it but im not pushing it down anyone's throat.
 

KillLaCam

Banned
Make me good vegan food and I'll consider it. I've had decent vegan food but nothing good enough to replace meat and things. This is the only way anyone will convince me.
 

Circinus

Member
Well duh. Evolution is scientific fact, I'm certainly not arguing against that. When I say designed I mean through millions of years of evolution.

And also, yeah I never said humans are carnivores. We are omnivores and need fruit and veg in our diet.

I don't even know why you are replying to me, I'm not arguing against some of the things you say here, though I'm not sure humans actually need fruit and veg in their diet, but it's probably a sensible thing to do for individuals of course.

We are omnivores, correct. However you can't say an organism NEEDS or requires a specific type of food or based on that like I said. Either plants or meat. You can't say pigs or chickens need to eat animal flesh to survive because they're omnivores. You wouldn't say a panda needs to eat meat because their ancestors from 5 million years ago were eating meat.

There's a thing called dietary science which allows us to study just that (the dietary needs of animals) much, much more thoroughly than just guesswork based on evolution. Maybe the latter can give us some ideas, or some kind of framework, but that's it.

If an alien looks at the earth and observes the human species, they of course would see that the human species eats meat and plants and would therefore classify humans as omnivores. That's descriptive NOT prescriptive. That's what I'm getting at. I see people saying "humans are omnivores, therefore we need meat so fuck veganism!!" all the time which is an incorrect assertion. Like I said, evolutionary biology gets misapplied all the time in discussions about veganism from both sides of the argument.

Organisms just need to take in certain compounds, metabolize them, and excreed wasteful metabolites. There's nothing inherently magical about food, either meat or plants.

We do know from dietary science that a well-planned balanced vegan diet is completely healthful for all stages of life of the human species, just like a well-planned balanced diet that includes meat and fish is healthful for all stages of life for the human species.





It's not mutually exclusive

Did not imply otherwise.

and evidence of fruit and veg cultivation through history is proof of exactly nothing.

It's proof that they were cultivating fruit and veg.. And eating those cultivated fruit and veg.. And started cultivating fruit and veg because they used the wild ancestors of said cultivated fruit and veg.

Of course it is not proof that humans should be vegans or eating plant-based or something, that's not the argument I'm making at all. I'm just refuting the guy's laughable misinformation. (referring to "edible fruits and vegetables were extremely rare [before civilization]" as the misinformation)

They did it to get access to more food... not to give birth to veganism.

Doesn't need to be said. You're seem to be reading into things that I'm not even saying; you're arguing for things I never even implied.

But we are designed to eat meat just as a lion is designed to eat the gazelle.

We aren't "designed" to do shit. If we are able to do something, we are "designed to be able to do it". Period

So I don't really get what you're saying. And obviously a lion is a completely different mammal and has very little adaptations for consuming plant matter compared to humans.

We evolved to hunt animals

Correct, but only if you're referring to period between 1.7 million years ago BP up to now.

even though we probably could have survived on vegetation alone.

Plausible if you're referring to the same erectines from 1.7 million years ago BP, but that would have probably have made us a different species we are today.

but The truth is that animals provided more proteins and fats which in turn helped people grow stronger and hunt more.

The way you've formulated this is quite debatable on the other hand. In the timeline of human evolution from primates (from 60 million years ago up to now), the dietary shift towards meat consumption only occurred starting from ~2.5 million years ago (we're not really sure when the first active hunting occurred among paleoanthropologists, it is thought that our ancestors were more scavengers until hunting is first well documented 1.7 million years ago ). The hominids living at that point (2.5 million years ago) would likely be very well adapted to their diet at that point (mostly plant foods) and certain evolutionary pressures can lead species to different food sources, to have a more diverse diet and can in turn lead to physiological changes and higher overall energy intake. It is possible, but I'm not sure if it's known if the hominids actually grew stronger though. Based on anatomical changes throughout the history of human evolution, I doubt humans grew significantly stronger. A lot of the changes occurred in the brains of course (and introduction of cooked tubers is thought to have played a role in that, some paleoanthropologists say even more so than introduction of more meat)

Chimpanzees and gorillas are obviously very physically strong, yet they split off earlier in time from the last common ancestors we have we tem (7 million years ago for chimps and about 11 million years ago for gorillas). And of course gorillas, when you look at their evolution, they have never really shifted towards meat consumption. Chimpanzees also have never really shifted towards inclusion of larger amount of meat in their diet (>10%), but they do eat some degree of eggs, insects and other invertebrates and opportunistically meat. Plants make up the bulk of their diet (more than 90%). (EDIT: meat is estimated to be make 3% of a chimp's diet on a whole year basis)

Regardless that was just side information, I think that point is moot in today's practical terms. Even if at some point in the past eating meat provided additional energy and proteins to grow larger brains or to be stronger (the latter of which is nothing more than a hypothesis of yours) that doesn't mean that we as individuals or we as a species will suddenly become smarter or become physiologically stronger if we eat meat today.
 

SamVimes

Member
As a non-vegan I meet many more aggressive meat-eaters than vegans. The few vegans I've met were really chill while a surprising number of non-vegans at the mere mention of the word start talking about assholes vegans and how they like to eat pork chops in front of them just to bother them.
 
i don't really care about the animal cruelty people, but the environmental arguments do make me feel a bit guilty about eating meat
 

HariKari

Member
I've never met an aggressive vegan.

Plenty in this thread.

I've met quite a few "Vegans" who watched the documentary on Netflix and then immediately started proselytizing.

Vegetarianism is so widespread and normal now that I don't think anyone truly cares. You can get the edge back by taking it a step further to Veganism.
 

Sunster

Member
Plenty in this thread.

I've met quite a few "Vegans" who watched the documentary on Netflix and then immediately started proselytizing.

Vegetarianism is so widespread and normal now that I don't think anyone truly cares. You can get the edge back by taking it a step further to Veganism.

In threads like this you'll see more "aggressive" meat eaters.
 

eot

Banned
back when the movies were released. I don't recall the exact context of this scene, I'm just going by what's said in that pic

the bullshit part is claiming that every other mammal species develops an instinct that will keep their population in check. It happens in nature, sure, but mammals overpopulate in their natural habitats all the time around the globe. There isn't such a thing as natural equilibrium, for that matter. Nature is in context flux, species die out and are replaced with others, environments change
It's a limit cycle
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Well it's hard to take someone seriously when they claim something is immoral while doing equally or more immoral things.

Like, the animals suffer so I don't eat meat but I have to have the latest phone so fuck those people.


You don't need to earn the right to do anything. You can do what you want, just don't try claim the moral high ground when it's obvious that as soon as something becomes inconvenient to you, it's likely you'll turn a blind eye. Your whole modern life is built upon the suffering of others, so it's a bit ironic to say that you won't eat animals because of your morals.
Do you drive a car? Do you have an iPhone or any other high tech device? Is your electricity bill at or above average level.

Any of these things means your either contributing a sizeable amount to climate change or have a lifestyle that is built on the suffering of others.

Chances are you'd have less of a impact on the world being a meat eater meat in a remote village in an 3rd world etc country than being a vegan in a western nation. It all comes down to priorities.
 

SamVimes

Member
Do you drive a car? Do you have an iPhone or any other high tech device? Is your electricity bill at or above average level.

Any of these things means your either contributing a sizeable amount to climate change or is built on the suffering of others.

Chances are you'd have less of a impact on the world being a eater meat in a remote village in an African etc country than being a vegan in a western nation. It all comes down to priorities.

That's the most defeatist argument. Each one of us can do their part to contribute less to climate change and that's not useless.
 

BigDes

Member
Never actually met an aggressive vegan.

Worst act of vegan aggression against me was that I cooked vegan food for them when they stayed and they didn't cook ameat dish for me when I stayed at theirs.

Which to be honest is perfectly understandable given their moral objection to meat and also the food was delicious and it is awesome to try new things so no harm no foul.

Oh wait once an animal rights protestor shouted meat is murder at me when I was walking past eating a ham sandwich

I was like well duh, that's how meat works.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
That's the most defeatist argument. Each one of us can do their part to contribute less to climate change and that's not useless.
That's fine don't go around complaining about the lifestyle and impacts of other people while ignoring the lifestyle and impact of yourself.

There's a difference between convincing someone to make a change that will improve the substanbility of the planet and well being of the creatures that inhabit and standing on a soap box demonizing other people the way you consider to be correct while ignoring all the shit you actually contribute.

Ignoring the animal cruelty argument if ultimately yours and their carbon emissions are the same or similar level who are you to fucking judge? It's why I consider a holistic approach more important rather than one single factor.
 

V_Arnold

Member
In threads like this you'll see more "aggressive" meat eaters.

HOW DARE YOU! ITS VEGANS WHO ARE AGRESSIVE!!!!

*shrugs*
Not that I am surprised. Eating for many is almost a religious act, so many emotional baggage comes with it. Touch it and you face hellstorm. Sure, its agressive vegans, sure.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
Err, no? I don't think we can agree about that at all. Gas cars will be gone in 20-30 years. Meat? Not in the next 200, if ever.

Meat is gonna be gone sooner than you think. For various reasons:

- global warming : livestock is both harder to produce in warmer global climate and also contribute to it significantly. Plants can be engineered much more easily to survive a warmer climate, but we won't get to the point to be able to engineer cows anywhere as fast. We will get much more easily to engineer alternatives to meat, which bring the next point

- alternative meat : we will get to the point where either meat cell cultures or simply vegetables alternatives are good enough and cheaper. At that point, the world consumption of meat will plummet for simple economics.

- economics: meat is also cheap mostly because of economic incentives. If meat were to cost in proportion what it actually cost energetically, it would cost at least three times what it cost now, leading people to shift away from it. If governments shift away incentives from meat production to alternative meat production, meat will go the way of the dodo. It will need time because it's a huge industry and you can't simply unemploy all of it suddendly. Local producers also will probably never go out of work because of how local smaller communities work and because the moral arguments is much harder to do for those animals.


As for the ethic argument, it's not so clear. If conscience is a thing, then we can simply grow out brainless meat. To engineer animals without brain is not even that complex as a thing since there already exist diseases that cause the brain to not develop enough to even allow autonomous respiration. But again, would we accept creating life that has no purpose but being eaten and no self-consiousness at all? Personally i'd rather eat meat from my local procucers. It's more costly but i see those pigs cows and chickens almost every day on the open fields.

The problem of ethics will be extremely interesting in the next 10-20 years. The AI field will have to massively research it.
 

Kelthink

Member
I'm presuming the people who can't stand aggressive vegans also dislike immigration 'because of muslims'. Overblown nonsense. And I eat meat.
 
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