Also the community complained when during the beta Blizzy-B would release several characters at a time.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Overwatch |OT8| Our love will last Pharah-ver
- Thread starter ExMachina
- Start date
- Status
Also the community complained when during the beta Blizzy-B would release several characters at a time.
Red Arremer
Member
That doesn't mean they can't reveal 2 heroes at once.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
So, according to those who are against multiple hero releases, how long does it take to determine if a new hero is broken or not? A couple weeks? A month? 3 months? 6?
Karsticles
Member
The game isn't remotely balanced right now, so I don't see the problem with jacking it up further.
finalflame
Gold Member
Reveal in an animated short? Sure. Release to PTR/detail the heroes abilities and role? No.
Please expand.
Garrett Hawke
Member
sounds fake
finalflame
Gold Member
Red Arremer
Member
I don't see how they couldn't detail the hero role either. Like, I get if the character's still in the stage where they're not 100% on the skills yet to not reveal those, but the role certainly is determined long before that.
Reminder that Jeff Kaplan said that they're working on multiple heroes, as well.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
I'm going to guess that Karsticles is thinking of Ana. I almost thought about bringing her up myself but I refrained.
The Artful Dodger
Member
What's weirder is when the team stalls a bit taking a point or pushing a cart so the healer (or tank) switches to a widow or hanzo...
Karsticles
Member
A balanced game would see all heroes being used at a similar rate in competitive play. Not this kind of massive curve:
https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-02-22-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-season-3-review
In particular, Ana, Reinhardt, and Soldier are way too strong in this game at all levels of play. Lucio and Zarya mostly shine at the higher levels.
Meanwhile, a huge portion of the cast (mostly defense heroes) are borderline unusable in high level play. You can look at a lot of the characters and say "Why?", and there isn't a clear answer right now. Only a few characters have defining traits that make a team say "We need this!", while the rest are mishmashes of DPS and minor utility.
What's the worst that throwing 2 new heroes in could do to the game?
Ana is to healers as Reinhardt is to tanks - she makes you wonder why Blizzard even bothered to create other options (RIP D.va).
RecRoulette
Member
Yeah, the community also complained about a decent competitive mode so now we have the clusterfuck known as the current competitive mode.
Karsticles
Member
What changed in this regard?
Joshmyersbv
Member
I'm absolutely shocked none of the pros pick Junkrat.
RecRoulette
Member
It was basically Hearthstone's ranked mode. Here are the details.
I sort of understand why people didn't like it, it's completely focused on wins and losses, with no way to factor in individual performance. But I feel like the current competitive mode doesn't really do that well either. It's a lot of complicated guesswork that still heavily relies on wins and losses.
I have to imagine if anyone else gets a second ult it'll be Junkrat.
With all the Pharah buffs there's just very little reason to play him. And the Bastion buff will make him exceed Junkrat quicker in busting barriers with better survivability
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Are you?
Also a game where everyone is picked equally is damn near impossible. We're actually in a pretty good state currently.
KanameYuuki
Member
I wonder how bad new bastion is going to be on ps4, he is already a handful, was he too easy to kill on pc? that passive sounds unnecessary for console.
QP harder than usual now that's off season and tons of players with golden weapons.
QP harder than usual now that's off season and tons of players with golden weapons.
When you look at Overwatch practically it's actually pretty balanced atm. Yeah, there are high and low usage rates, but you can't really expect everybody to be that high of pickrate. There's a lot of strat diversity right now, an the lesser picked heroes do come out sometimes and are used in interesting ways.
Reminder that good balance doesn't actually mean everybody is picked more or less equally.
Reminder that good balance doesn't actually mean everybody is picked more or less equally.
I can't think of a single game with this many *Classes/Hero's* that has every single one of them be playable at high level play,
Joshmyersbv
Member
Yeah I hear a lot of people wanting a Winston buff or a McCree buff (mostly console players) but Junkrat should be a priority. Most of the games I see him in he gets used to bust Reins shield at a choke or on high ground shooting randomly down at people. I think its going to take more than just a new ult to make him more viable. Unless it benefits the whole team in some way.
Red Arremer
Member
In all fairness, this is an extremely difficult feat to acquire, especially given that different modes and maps will require different skillsets.
There's maps on which, say, Widowmaker is a lot better than she is on others.
Obviously there's characters with skillsets that are universally good because of some fundamental mechanic (Rein, Ana, Lucio, and it usually flipflops between 76 and McCree for the main DPS).
The way this game is mechanically set up also will never have all heroes being used at a similar rate ever, since some heroes are clearly more built to be used on defense (e.g. the turret characters), while other characters excel at one particular mode. For instance Tracer is very good at point capture maps, while she is not as useful on payloads or hybrids once the point is capped.
Niche characters should be allowed to exist.
Joshmyersbv
Member
Oh I was just joking and I don't doubt the current meta being good in any way. After the three tank meta I'll take anything lol.
I think it's fair to say that the highs are too high, and the lows are too low. But right now, everyone is pretty viable. Ana is probably too strong still, at least compared to Mercy and Zen, heroes like Junkrat, Torb, and Symmetra are still super niche (and Bastion if his buffs don't help him out).
Red Arremer
Member
Also, looking at that usage chart, the only characters that weren't picked are the ones with unreliable damage (Junkrat and Hanzo), while everybody else was picked.
Even Torbjörn. Even pre-buff Bastion was picked once.
I think that's pretty solid.
Even Torbjörn. Even pre-buff Bastion was picked once.
I think that's pretty solid.
While true pick equality is a pipe dream, I think it's not good that someone like Soldier is picked on literally every map. I mean, we complain about Reinhardt's necessity, but there is never a game where Soldier isn't one of the primary DPS dealers. I want him knocked the fuck down.
you still saw him a lot more than bastion for a long time in GM games so i dont think he's that bad but he has the worst ult in the game(there are insane people that think widows is bad) and feeds ana heals too easily
if they ever changed him i think it would just be a new ult or something.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I feel like I see torbjorn picked but I barely see him work.
Like once in every 20 matches maybe. Pro games anyway.
Like once in every 20 matches maybe. Pro games anyway.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Also apparently the carbon entertainment thing is starting soon?
https://www.twitch.tv/carbonentertainment
https://www.twitch.tv/carbonentertainment
"Soldier's in every single game"
Has a 43% pick rate, and the stats point to him being more a of a defense specialist. Yeah yeah, I know I know, console. Just pointing out where he's at elsewhere.
It feels unfair that I have to post a "on console" disclaimer for literally every post I make about balance, lest it be lost that I am talking about the stats for him everywhere.
Still, I'll probably be bitching about Soldier even when I do migrate to PC. He could have a 10% pickrate and I'd still be annoyed with him. He just doesn't add that much to the game in terms of fun for me.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Thing is blizzard don't balance for console. At all.
Which is frustrating, because 1. they said they would and 2. it feels like it should be easy to do so. 95% of the balance of PC is transferable. They really only have to account for slightly lesser aiming capability, and that's only especially relevant to a few characters.
Edit: Wow, Hammer's lost but that was a hell of a last ditch effort
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
Wait what? They did. Torb and Symmetra turrets are still nerfed on console. Also the movement speed of certain faster characters are slower on console than pc(so console players can actually hit them).
They only make big changes like this to console Overwatch if there is something that is causing a huge problem for the community. Turrets were a problem so they were nerfed back then. Right now, the only thing console Overwatch community is pissed about is the fact that high diamond to grandmaster ranks have quite a few players using mouse and keyboard/Xim4, which pretty much once every 2-3 games you'll find one McCree, Soldier, or Hanzo player using this enhanced way to aim wrecking an entire enemy team and it makes it incredibly difficult to climb that ladder if you're stuck with a controller.
Bless your heart.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I see people instalock mercy in QP often enough that it disturbs me.
Ayyy, I hit top 2000 Mercy in QP
Man that win to loss ratio is really good for a hero that has very little mechanical control over a game. Surprised you haven't cracked master tbh. Then again, trying to crack master with Mercy lul.
Ana Nerf Waiting Room
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Nah, it's more like I see these mercies running around dying constantly due to the unco-ordinated nature of QP and go "are you guys like masochists or something?"
I feel like it's almost impossible for me to just hit 2000 for any characterAyyy, I hit top 2000 Mercy in QP
I played Ana/Lucio in S3. I'm gonna break out Zen again for S4 and make a serious push for Master.
Karsticles
Member
A pro Genji encourages everyone to pub him, but why doesn't this have a correlative effect as well?
Thank you for sharing that.
Is Junkrat's ult really considered that bad?
I agree with you that balance =/= pick rate, but I think some heroes stand out to an offensive degree right now. Ana and Reinhardt are probably #1 and #2 for me.
It's not so much that some of the pickrates are low (which is problematic), but that some are extremely high.
That said, my point wasn't that the game is poorly balanced, but rather that there's nothing to lose in the game's current state of balance by releasing two heroes at once - this game is not a fine dish at the moment when it comes to balance.
I wasn't arguing this, though.
I don't disagree with any of this.
I also agree with your general sentiment.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
time to feed my ass off tomorrow
Well that was back last summer, and it was a problem only because of hero stacking. Moreover, nobody considered Symmetra's turrets to need a nerf. So they're only getting rebalanced now, long after they were a real problem
Additionally, there are heroes who are problematic to fight against on console, such as Pharah, Tracer, and arguably the new Symmetra, but those have never been looked at.
And honestly the K&M problem is a bit of a boogeyman - there may be some players who do play like that but I feel it is nowhere near as widespread as people think.
- Status