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Relaxed Muscle
Member
(07-26-2016, 07:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by exmachina64

Unless they manage to magically only disable Steam and every game on PC, this would break EVERY Win32 application and destroy the point of Windows backwards compatibility.

Is Microsoft really going to massively upend its business customers and prevent customers from running programs like Office, Visual Studio, Photoshop and Maya?



Yes.

Yed, once UWP is widespread enough and all those programs has UWP versions they can easily shut down Win32.

Is something that will take years, but as Tim said, they know that and will be pacient enough.
reptilescorpio
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by vasametropolis

Sounds like a load of crap to me. Most obvious choice would be to ruin Chrome, and they haven't done a thing.

Google, Apple & Mozilla all joined together to make open standards for browsers pretty sure, to avoid this very thing.
unapersson
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:01 AM)
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I don't if they'd do it this way, but they have form for this kind of thing. Going back a long way (DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run) or the new Windows 10 warning that pops up if you're using Chrome or Firefox to say they're power inefficient and you should use Edge:

foolishoptimist
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:02 AM)
Just listened to a Jonathan Blow podcast where he talked about Windows10 issues with games transitioning in-and-out of fullscreen mode, and how MS aren't helpful for devs trying to make their game not crash.

This could be true, or not, but how would you know? How would you ever prove that it's willful incompetence as apposed to just plain incompetence?
Loxley
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:02 AM)
Okay, we're entering tinfoil hat territory now -_-
Guerrilla
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:02 AM)
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Wow, did someone at MS kill his dog or something? His previous statements were actually well thought out but this is getting into really unprofessional territory....
Starbuck2907
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:03 AM)
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I can believe him.

These are the same people who produced games for windows live, locked direct x upgrades behind paid OS upgrades, tried to get us to pay for online PC play, and tried to put in always online drm as part of the Xnox One.

I have no trouble believing MS will try to screw over Steam.

Edit: Steam could always release a Steam app in the Windows Store and just sell the games through a web site to avoid giving MS money. You could just use the app to access your game library.
Roshin
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:04 AM)

Originally Posted by RedlineRonin

I don't wanna be that guy, but I was not at all an MS fan (as far as gaming) until Phil came along. When you listen to him talk, he's a real genuine dude and you can tell he wants the gaming community to succeed as a whole. I can never imagine a world where Phil would allow all this garbage Tim is speculating to actually happen.

Well, that didn't take long.
saunderez
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by unapersson

I don't if they'd do it this way, but they have form for this kind of thing. Going back a long way (DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run) or the new Windows 10 warning that pops up if you're using Chrome or Firefox to say they're power inefficient and you should use Edge:

Windows 10 also likes to steal back file associations claiming "something went wrong". Bullshit something went wrong, and even if it did I don't ever want to associate Groove Music with ANY music file. I'm not using a "free" version of Windows 10, stop pushing your shit on me.
dragonelite
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:05 AM)
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Can they do it yeah, will they do it no it would be platform suicide.
pj
Banned
(07-26-2016, 08:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by unapersson

I don't if they'd do it this way, but they have form for this kind of thing. Going back a long way (DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run) or the new Windows 10 warning that pops up if you're using Chrome or Firefox to say they're power inefficient and you should use Edge:

It's true though. Chrome uses way more power and is way choppier than edge on my crappy chinese tablet
MarionCB
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:06 AM)
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Wow, so many people in this thread seem unaware of the term Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. What Sweeney is describing is not only plausible, it's what MS has been doing for decades for many different areas. They are doing it now to move into selling games on PC, and Valve is their competitor. It's no surprise. The only question is if they can get away with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish
SmartWaffles
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:06 AM)
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But but but... MS is different today!

Although this time Tim probably stretched things way too far.
mrklaw
MrArseFace
(07-26-2016, 08:06 AM)
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1) I thought it was already established that you don't need to go through the windows store to distribute UWP?

2) Ms can't remove w32 support in 5 years. There are thousands and thousands of apps that may never get updated to UWP and you can't simply make them incompatible

They likely want to encourage developers to move towards UWP, and there are some advantages to that. But that's about the only part that rings true and doesn't sound paranoid and hyperbolic
Candescence
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:06 AM)
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Yeah, I believe him. Knowing that MS has a long, long history of anti-competitive behaviour of this sort makes it believable, even if the logistics in this case would be extremely difficult and would take years for any opportunity to surface, even if UWP does somehow take off (lol). Anyone who thinks he's being hyperbolic doesn't know Microsoft's history well enough. Never trust Microsoft's word with this sort of thing, ever.
Walshicus
(07-26-2016, 08:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by SmartWaffles

But but but... MS is different today!

Although this time Tim probably stretched things way too far.

This probably isn't an appropriate example of something you can resort to a 'but but but' with.
Honey Bunny
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:09 AM)
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If you react to this statement with complete disbelief, you don't know enough about Microsoft.
foolishoptimist
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:10 AM)

Originally Posted by Starbuck2907

Edit: Steam could always release a Steam app in the Windows Store and just sell the games through a web site to avoid giving MS money. You could just use the app to access your game library.

Except there's a bunch of stuff Steam does(besides run a storefront), as a Win32 application, that aren't allowed under UWP.
Arulan
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:10 AM)
After reading the first page of this thread, you'd have to believe some form of mass amnesia has swept through humanity for the long and damning history that precedes Microsoft to suddenly go forgotten.
Uzzy
(07-26-2016, 08:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Candescence

Yeah, I believe him. Knowing that MS has a long, long history of anti-competitive behaviour of this sort makes it believable. Anyone who thinks he's being hyperbolic doesn't know Microsoft's history well enough. Never trust Microsoft's word with this sort of thing, ever.

Yup. They may have slapped a pretty face on the front of their gaming division, who's words make certain people weak at the knees, but that doesn't change what Microsoft is.
Inuhanyou
Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
(07-26-2016, 08:10 AM)
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I thought it was common knowledge that MS was trying to lock down the PC ecosystem with Windows 10(and Windows 10 store) and attempting to curtail their competitors content? Was that big or controversial new news?
Sweeney Tom
Banned
(07-26-2016, 08:11 AM)
MS never changed
RandomExpletive
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:11 AM)
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lol, MS doesn't need to do anything to make steam buggier or slower or worse, Valve's been bloating their client for a while now. I'd kill for a revamp of their desktop client, ESPECIALLY their Mac client!
Henrar
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:12 AM)
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Almost every single professional application is based on Win32 (CAD, various IDEs, etc). No chance that MS will do it.
slapnuts
Junior Member
(07-26-2016, 08:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Aztechnology

Awe man, that's cold blooded, yo lol
Dreams-Visions
I'm mad as hell but this sandwich is delicious
(07-26-2016, 08:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sweeney Tom

MS never changed

War never changes.
SeanTSC
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by MarionCB

Wow, so many people in this thread seem unaware of the term Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. What Sweeney is describing is not only plausible, it's what MS has been doing for decades for many different areas. They are doing it now to move into selling games on PC, and Valve is their competitor. It's no surprise. The only question is if they can get away with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly in line with their behavior. It sounds tin foil hatty, but it's entirely plausible given their history. I think it'd be pretty difficult to get away with it on this though. At least I'd hope so. I think that the games industry is big enough that there would be enough push back from developers and publishers if they got even a whiff of this happening.
Starbuck2907
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Arulan

After reading the first page of this thread, you'd have to believe some form of mass amnesia has swept through humanity for the long and damning history that precedes Microsoft to suddenly go forgotten.

Truth.
Prototype Viktor
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by iavi

This honestly seems like boogeyman nonsense.

MS is going to actively deter people away from one of the major reason they use Win10. Sure.

Ghost of Boogeyman past. Steam turned PC into the app store why wouldn't MS want win10 to be the new stream
Guerrilla
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by MarionCB

Wow, so many people in this thread seem unaware of the term Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. What Sweeney is describing is not only plausible, it's what MS has been doing for decades for many different areas. They are doing it now to move into selling games on PC, and Valve is their competitor. It's no surprise. The only question is if they can get away with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish

So you seriously think they will botch win32 compatibility and destroy their biggest revenue stream? Or what are they going to do to make steam work worse?
GhostTrick
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:15 AM)
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Sad truth is, he might be right. People should stop thinking about conspiracies and such. It's not about "Hahahahah we're evil so we'll press a button to mess up Steam".

It's more like doing baby steps by baby steps. It's not the first time a company push a competitor this way. The better way to get out a deeply rooted competitor is to complicate things.
RedStep
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(07-26-2016, 08:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Arulan

After reading the first page of this thread, you'd have to believe some form of mass amnesia has swept through humanity for the long and damning history that precedes Microsoft to suddenly go forgotten.

And what? You don't have to forget history to think that a raving jackass with zero evidence is wrong or at the very least, premature.
BobLoblaw
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:16 AM)
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Looks like Tim's on that Gaben stuff.
Mr Git
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(07-26-2016, 08:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by saunderez

Windows 10 also likes to steal back file associations claiming "something went wrong". Bullshit something went wrong, and even if it did I don't ever want to associate Groove Music with ANY music file. I'm not using a "free" version of Windows 10, stop pushing your shit on me.

Is that just a sneaky way of continuing their bag of bullshit but avoiding more EU fines.

MS have been pulled up for anti-competitive behaviour in the past, but whether they'd sabotage Steam? I dunno. What are the figures like for Win10 Steam users? Even then, people are very attached to their Steam accounts - I'd imagine most folks would switch OS before abandoning them.
Pokemaniac
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:18 AM)
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This is some tinfoil hat nonsense. win32 isn't dying anytime soon. If there's anything that could actually bring about The Year of the Linux Desktop, it's that.
Candescence
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(07-26-2016, 08:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by SeanTSC

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly in line with their behavior. It sounds tin foil hatty, but it's entirely plausible given their history. I think it'd be pretty difficult to get away with it on this though. At least I'd hope so. I think that the games industry is big enough that there would be enough push back from developers and publishers if they got even a whiff of this happening.

Yep. The main difference compared to yesteryear and examples like crushing Netscape is that it's harder for MS to get away with their behaviour these days, and they're increasingly incompetent with it.
AusRoachman
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:19 AM)
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Tim Sweeny seems very anti Microsoft. Considering they made a ton of money off them (Gears of war , and selling the rights), some shit must have gone down behind the scenes.
orochi91
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(07-26-2016, 08:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by saunderez

Windows 10 also likes to steal back file associations claiming "something went wrong". Bullshit something went wrong, and even if it did I don't ever want to associate Groove Music with ANY music file. I'm not using a "free" version of Windows 10, stop pushing your shit on me.

This is literally happening on my PC right now.

Had all my video/audio associations set to Media Player Classic, but then all of a sudden everything got switched to MS's Groove player.

MPC wouldn't even show up when setting default apps; I had to completely uninstall and reinstall the software.

MS is shady as fuck.
Dyson Industries
Banned
(07-26-2016, 08:19 AM)
Anyone who gives Microsoft the benefit of the doubt on anything is a fool. Period.
Schnozberry
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(07-26-2016, 08:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Henrar

Almost every single professional application is based on Win32 (CAD, various IDEs, etc). No chance that MS will do it.

Long term? No reason they couldn't put a sunset on win32 at some point. They'd probably give people a grace period to get into compliance, but it's not like major shifts like this are without precedence.
GrantDaNasty
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(07-26-2016, 08:19 AM)
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Clearly Microsoft would never resort to such tactics...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish

Tim might sound like he's stark raving mad, but people immediately going "LOL NO" might be jumping the gun themselves here.

The change won't happen overnight, this isn't a Bond movie, but it will transition over time and MS will do all they can to ensure they have their hand as deep into that pocket as possible while keeping others out.
Detective
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(07-26-2016, 08:20 AM)
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C.L.O.W.N
unapersson
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(07-26-2016, 08:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by pj

It's true though. Chrome uses way more power and is way choppier than edge on my crappy chinese tablet

As owner of the OS it's a misuse of the notification system. It may or may not be true this week, but that really doesn't matter. They can run all the full page ads or sponsored content in magazines and websites that they like, or even run a huge banner ad when you start up Windows 10.

Should Google also be allowed to hook into Windows services to spy on what other apps are doing (Edge crashes 50% more often than other leading browsers, why not use Chrome?). But then they're not in a position where their competing browser automatically comes installed with the OS. We've pretty much been through this before, when Microsoft decided it was time to cut off Netscape's air supply. They've only recently come out from under anti-trust supervision for that one, yet already seem to falling back to old patterns of behaviour.
Night Angel
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(07-26-2016, 08:21 AM)
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While that would go along with their past shady practices, I'm not sure if it's wise to go on the war path like Tim is here. But good on him for being vocal about his concerns. Hopefully they don't come to fruition.
slapnuts
Junior Member
(07-26-2016, 08:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by DD-11

This guy has become such a clown. He used to be an influential and smart man, but now he's devolved into this raving jackass.

Ah man...I wouldn't say all that. Sure he has his own beliefs and all, he's welcomed to them like anyone else but he's still a very smart man, i mean. ,after-all... he's the founder of Epic games and still holds that seat.

I wouldn't shoot down his "prophecy" lol, but for real, stranger things have happened before.
Omikaru
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:23 AM)

Originally Posted by Henrar

Almost every single professional application is based on Win32 (CAD, various IDEs, etc). No chance that MS will do it.

This is kind of a backwards way of looking at it. They want those apps to go UWP so they can take cuts from them, so in reality they're in exactly the same precarious position that PC games are in now.

I don't doubt for a second that they're very slowly doing this. 'Embrace, Extend and Extinguish' is in Microsoft's DNA, and I don't believe for a second that just because different people (who have been with the company for years, and were part of the old guard's toxic culture) are running the show that the company has materially changed.

Whether this is extreme or not, I think people just saying this is tinfoil hat stuff are not looking into Microsoft's past too much.
Aceofspades
Gold Member
(07-26-2016, 08:23 AM)
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If MS had to choose to eliminate one company from existence, they will choose Steam over Sony.

Steam is twisting their arm in the PC space. So this news is not surprising at all.
LordBaztion
Member
(07-26-2016, 08:24 AM)
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How can MS convince everyone to choose an inferior alternative, if Win32 is as good as he says it is, then developers won't care to choose UWA. I think he fears that UWA will become a valid alternative for PC software development up to the point of risking his business.
To be fair, for me as someone who uses PCs mostly for work with Word, I would appreciate not having to worry again about viruses and stuff like that.
sirap
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(07-26-2016, 08:26 AM)
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I would've laughed if this came from some Joe Shmoe, but this is Tim fucking Sweeney. That man is no fool.
Aztechnology
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(07-26-2016, 08:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by GrantDaNasty

Clearly Microsoft would never resort to such tactics...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish

Tim might sound like he's stark raving mad, but people immediately going "LOL NO" might be jumping the gun themselves here.

The change won't happen overnight, this isn't a Bond movie, but it will transition over time, and MS will do all they can to ensure they have their hand as deep into that pocket as possible.

My picture was just in good fun. I think he's exaggerating slightly how easy or able Microsoft will be able to implement such a strategy though. They have indeed tried before but when it comes to gaming they will be getting shut down. I believe the industry and gamers would be linux bound before that. Steam for instance is far too entrenched at this point for it to move the needle more than just a bit over the next decade.

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