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That metroidvania danger - a zero progress session

T

Teggy

Member
I just made it to Maridia in Super Metroid and looped through the whole place twice and couldn't progress in the game. So I went to another area I knew my new abilities would let me into but still no luck. I closed the game over an hour after I started and I could have just not played at all. Feels bad, man.

Zero progress is one of the worst feelings in gaming. Puzzles you get hopelessly stuck on, bosses you sit down to beat but fail endlessly to kill...has it happened to you?
 
D

Daouzin

Member
Definitely one of the worst feelings to have in any game, but now a days if I get stuck with something for the amount of time that you have I just look it up online. No point in ruining my time with a game because I'm too stubborn to look it up. Looking up things when I played Bloodborne definitely helped me "get" the souls experience.

Pinko Marx said:
Yeah but usually the next play session I figure it out.
Click to expand...

Also this
 
Cracklox

Cracklox

Member
Too many times.

But that Shao Khan mutherfucker at the end of Mortal Kombat 9s story nearly broke me. I think I spent 5 hours one night trying to beat him before going to bed, hopelessly defeated.

I think I then got him 3rd try the next day. Eventual Yay!
 
D

DecoReturns

Member
Couple of times happened to me in Fire Emblem. Played one chapter for an hour, died and had to restart. Sucks sometimes.

In Digimon World 3. This would happen a lot. That game can be so cryptic at times
 
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
It's a part of the experience. Makes doing progress even more rewarding later on. That's the point of exploration in games IMO.
 
A

Aters

Member
DecoReturns said:
Couple of times happened to me in Fire Emblem. Played one chapter for an hour, died and had to restart. Sucks sometimes.
Click to expand...

This so much. Played for an hour, one guy died from critical attack, restarted the whole thing. Man it feels like shit. Another reason FE4 is the best: it lets you save every turn.
 
B

black_clavus

Neo Member
This what I felt whenever I played dark soul, but I always told myself that I'll improve mentally everytime : )

I haven't finish any souls game yet :(
 
Duxxy3

Duxxy3

Member
Part of why it's hard for me to invest my time into souls games. I love them, but they are such a massive drain on my time. Some nights I would play for hours and accomplished nothing but frustration.
 
T

Teggy

Member
Sir_Crocodile said:
I remember way back in the day just working out how to break into Maridia for the first time.

That took me a while.
Click to expand...

Having not owned an NES or SNES, recently playing Fusion and Zero Mission among some other metroidvania games has really improved my overall skill at beating these kinds of games (and probably many other kinds of games). Understanding that there can be secret paths in any room, even if there aren't obvious clues was key. I started just assuming there was something to find everywhere and shoot and bomb everything. It's amazing how often making progress in the games relies on a completely random secret that in most other games would be reserved for an extra collectible or something.
 
K

KHlover

Banned
That's when I look it up in a guide. Was stuck in one area for an hour because I had placed a morphball bomb just a bit wrong and missed a breakable floor tile, which resulted in me running all over the place and bombing the shit out of everything except that spot (because I thought I had already checked it). Pretty hard facepalm when I looked it up.
 
Ennosuke

Ennosuke

Member
AlexBasch said:
Lost three hours of progress in P5 because Mudo seems to have a greater hit % than the previous games.

It was fun.
Click to expand...

So frustrating. I mean I try to save as often as possible. But when I say: Let's play Persona for that one hour where I have time and I end up without any progress at all after that hour I could explode out of anger.
 
C

capylikesgames

Banned
Hey, I just beat that game for the first time today! Took me ten hours (though my file says six), which isn't too bad I think. The maps usually tell you which direction you should be headed in order to finish an area. I wouldn't be surprised if you already passed the boss entrance either, you just have to be a little daring. I'm positive you'll find it next time. 👍
 
I

Iokis

Member
La-Mulana is the real king of this. Can't wait to do it again La-Mulana 2!

Also had this feeling a lot with Breath of the Wild - once you start to run low on remaining shrines not even the Sensor helps that much when you have to run around an eleventy billion square metre world (and that's not even going into the Koroks) - but I'm one of what appears to be only around 7 people who think BotW's Hyrule was far, far, far too big.
 
T

Teggy

Member
ReyVGM said:
Stuck in Maridia? How? Just follow your map.
Click to expand...

Well, I just looked it up. You have to
power bomb the glass tube.
How are you supposed to know that? It's totally contrary to everything the game has taught you up to that point.
 
C

clarknova156

Member
This very issue for me is what reflects if it's a good metroidvania or not. If I take a break , come back and am still lost for too long then it's shit. A good metroidvania shouldn't become a slog.
 
The Spoony Hou

The Spoony Hou

Member
Teggy said:
Well, I just looked it up. You have to
power bomb the glass tube.
How are you supposed to know that? It's totally contrary to everything the game has taught you up to that point.
Click to expand...

Isn't that shown in the demo? I think I remember learning it that way.
 
ReyVGM

ReyVGM

Member
Teggy said:
Well, I just looked it up. You have to
power bomb the glass tube.
How are you supposed to know that? It's totally contrary to everything the game has taught you up to that point.
Click to expand...

I actually was going to tell you to watch the game's commercial if you wanted a hint as to what to do since a lot of people for some reason don't realize you can bomb that tube, but since you said you looped Maridia twice, I assumed you had already done that.

How were you supposed to know that? Well, the last powerup you got was the bombs, you're in a glass tube, there are fish outside of it signaling there might be something out there, and there nowhere else to go. Seemed pretty logical to me back then.

I don't think you even HAVE to destroy the tube? You can enter Marida through Crateria, although you would need the beam assuming you don't sequence break. But again, since you said you looped Maridia twice, then I assume you had already explored the whole thing and had to go through Crateria.
 
M

Macapala

Unconfirmed Member
I'm a Video Game Master, so this never happens to me.
 
T

Teggy

Member
ReyVGM said:
I actually was going to tell you to watch the game's commercial if you wanted a hint as to what to do since a lot of people for some reason don't realize you can bomb that tube, but since you said you looped Maridia twice, I assumed you had already done that.

How were you supposed to know that? Well, the last powerup you got was the bombs, you're in a glass tube, there are fish outside of it signaling there might be something out there, and there nowhere else to go. Seemed pretty logical to me back then.
Click to expand...

But it's not the last power up I got - I was just in the crashed ship where I got the gravity suit and got the grapple before that. I've had the power bombs for quite a while and could have used them on that tube before I even went to the wrecked ship.

Maybe I am remembering wrong but I can even swear I DID power bomb the tube prior to going to wrecked ship. (Could be wrong about that, I suppose)
 
C

Courage

Member
Teggy said:
Well, I just looked it up. You have to
power bomb the glass tube.
How are you supposed to know that? It's totally contrary to everything the game has taught you up to that point.
Click to expand...

I remember doing this by chance the first time I played through the game and it was truly mindblowing.
 
ReyVGM

ReyVGM

Member
The Spoony Hou said:
But does it at least show Samus bombing it? I don't know, maybe it's too vague but it helped me, IIRC.
Click to expand...

Yep, it shows the bomb going off, but it cuts there.

Teggy said:
But it's not the last power up I got - I was just in the crashed ship where I got the gravity suit and got the grapple before that. I've had the power bombs for quite a while and could have used them on that tube before I even went to the wrecked ship.

Maybe I am remembering wrong but I can even swear I DID power bomb the tube prior to going to wrecked ship.
Click to expand...

Years of sequence breaking has damaged the 'correct' sequence to play the game, but yeah, as you said the varia suit was the last powerup. But I dunno, you go through that glass tube many times, specially after acquiring the bombs. It seems logical to try to 'interact' with the tube by shooting or bombing it. There's water outside and fish and stuff, the curiosity in you is supposed to spark up and try stuff.
 
T

Teggy

Member
ReyVGM said:
I don't think you even HAVE to destroy the tube? You can enter Marida through Crateria, although you would need the beam assuming you don't sequence break. But again, since you said you looped Maridia twice, then I assume you had already explored the whole thing and had to go through Crateria.
Click to expand...

Another walkthrough made a reference to hanging on a grapple point until it broke and then going up the hole, but it wasn't quite clear what it was referring to.

The glass tube is just a bit of a frustrating puzzle though because
1. Every secret entrance requirement up to that point could be revealed with a morph ball bomb
2. The game literally just gave you a gadget to highlight secret areas and it does nothing to the tube

ReyVGM said:
Yep, it shows the bomb going off, but it cuts there.



Years of sequence breaking has damaged the 'correct' sequence to play the game, but yeah, as you said the varia suit was the last powerup. But I dunno, you go through that glass tube many times, specially after acquiring the bombs. It seems logical to try to 'interact' with the tube by shooting or bombing it. There's water outside and fish and stuff, the curiosity in you is supposed to spark up and try stuff.
Click to expand...

I mean, I definitely tried to break it many times earlier in the game but apparently not with power bombs. I could see the platform back there and after trying so many times I just assumed I'd be getting there from a different direction.

And yeah, I never left the game playing to see the attract mode.
 
ReyVGM

ReyVGM

Member
Massive Duck said:
Yeah, that's how I found out way back.
Click to expand...

Can't be. I just let the demo run, there are three demos shown and there's no glass tube scene. The glass tube does show up on the commercial though.

I wonder, I remember seeing Samus do that regeneration powerup during one of those demos, but now I didn't see it. Do the demos chance depending on where you are in the game or something?

*Edit*
Ok I guess a fourth demo is added once you make a save file or something, but there's definitely no glass tube shown. It was only in the commercial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7-Z4swEgKE
 
Soodanim

Soodanim

Gold Member
When I encounter these situations I'm torn between wanting to be an impatient gamer and look it up, and figure it out for myself as I'm an adult who's been playing games since I was old enough and I should be able to do it. I guess the line is when patience runs dry.

I've had a few of these evenings in Breath of the Wild, which is part of why I'm not a huge fan of the game like everyone else is. Both in the giant mech animal "dungeons", one was when I needed to
light an arrow on the blue flame then shoot it through the door
. I'd been given absolutely no indication that running up to this blue flame that I've not encountered before with my wooden bow and wooden arrows and standing next to it with it all by my waist that just the arrow tip would be set alight and not the rest of my equipment. So I spent fucking ages on that. I'd still be in there if I hadn't looked it up.

The other was in the elephant when I forgot about an area I'd passed through and spent a couple hours running round with no luck. I still don't remember how I got through it, I probably looked that up too.

My conclusion? Breath of the Wild dungeons are shit.

Edit:
The Super Metroid bit above sounds like bullshit, too.
When a game teaches you a certain set of rules and you know games only do what they're programmed to do, you don't expect them to do something with no indication.

It's not bad when MGS doesn't tell you that shooting a fire extinguisher will stun nearby guards, because it's not essential.
It doesn't matter that in Arkham Asylum there's one destructible wall that doesn't show up in detective mode, because it's a super secret teaser for the sequel and not somethjng important to the game.

It matters when you end up wasting your time because the game didn't give you a reasonable clue. Who would get stuck in SM and decide to set on the title screen as a method of figuring it out? That's simply bad design.
 
ReyVGM

ReyVGM

Member
SixFourMike said:
When I encounter these situations I'm torn between wanting to be an impatient gamer and look it up, and figure it out for myself as I'm an adult who's been playing games since I was old enough and I should be able to do it. I guess the line is when patience runs dry.

I've had a few of these evenings in Breath of the Wild, which is part of why I'm not a huge fan of the game like everyone else is. Both in the giant mech animal "dungeons", one was when I needed to
light an arrow on the blue flame then shoot it through the door
. I'd been given absolutely no indication that running up to this blue flame that I've not encountered before with my wooden bow and wooden arrows and standing next to it with it all by my waist that just the arrow tip would be set alight and not the rest of my equipment. So I spent fucking ages on that. I'd still be in there if I hadn't looked it up.

The other was in the elephant when I forgot about an area I'd passed through and spent a couple hours running round with no luck. I still don't remember how I got through it, I probably looked that up too.

My conclusion? Breath of the Wild dungeons are shit.
Click to expand...

So the dungeons are shit because you got stuck in two places where apparently was totally your fault? Come on now.
There's a hole in the door, you see an unlit torch through that hole. You didn't think it was logical to shoot a lit torch through that hole? And yes, your wooden equipment can catch fire (as you mentioned), but wouldn't be logical that only the tip of the arrow would catch fire is that's the only thing that touches the fire? I dunno, maybe you were tired, but it's totally your fault and not the game.


SixFourMike said:
Edit:
The Super Metroid bit above sounds like bullshit, too.
When a game teaches you a certain set of rules and you know games only do what they're programmed to do, you don't expect them to do something with no indication.


It matters when you end up wasting your time because the game didn't give you a reasonable clue. Who would get stuck in SM and decide to set on the title screen as a method of figuring it out? That's simply bad design.
Click to expand...

Looks like you haven't played it. There's only ONE intact glass tube in the whole game, it's completely logical to try to use a bomb to break the glass. Specially if there's nowhere else to go. You're supposed to try using logic to solve puzzles. You see this big ass tube, the first and only one, there's fish outside, the friggin map says you are in a new area. Gee, I wonder if I could go outside this tube, if only I had something to break it.

Also, the title screen demo doesn't show the tube, the users above are wrong.
 
ReyVGM

ReyVGM

Member
The Spoony Hou said:
This is driving me nuts. I was sure it showed the glass tube breaking in one of the demos, and that's how I learned to do it, but it's not there. Guess I'm remembering it wrong... jeez.
Click to expand...

Like I said, it shows it on the commercial, that's where you saw it.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Teggy said:
Well, I just looked it up. You have to
power bomb the glass tube.
How are you supposed to know that? It's totally contrary to everything the game has taught you up to that point.
Click to expand...
The game tells you to try and break that tube. There is another tube right nearby that is broken, and you can see platforms outside of the tube, and your map will show the screen opening above and below, telling you you need to get to it.

Essentially it gives so many hints you should have been trying every weapon on it as you got each weapon.
 
T

Triggerhappytel

Member
Whenever this happens to me I usually find taking a bit of time away, maybe ruminating on where to go next and then playing again the next night normally yields some progress.
 
S

SciencePilot

Member
Iokis said:
La-Mulana is the real king of this. Can't wait to do it again La-Mulana 2!

Also had this feeling a lot with Breath of the Wild - once you start to run low on remaining shrines not even the Sensor helps that much when you have to run around an eleventy billion square metre world (and that's not even going into the Koroks) - but I'm one of what appears to be only around 7 people who think BotW's Hyrule was far, far, far too big.
Click to expand...

I feel like Breath of the Wild is very much designed not to be 100%'d. It's a very fun game when you're just wandering and stumbling upon cool things. It's not a fun game when you're trying to track down every last shrine, or korok seed, or armor upgrade.
 
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