A series of unfortunate events.
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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A series of unfortunate events.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Lol at the people saying France, whatever the catalonian language suffered atleast its more alive than occitan.
Seems to be a mixture of all three based on your political outlook.
Probably a bit of Russia involved as well, in the background. See California.
Chuckie
Member
Yes. I am sure the guy you are responding too really thought him living in the UK and Barcelona triggered Brexit and a Catalonian Independence Referendum.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Oh, so I see, actual historical, measurable events are a matter of "political opinion now". Explains a lot.
But it's the truth: we became one of the first countries to legalise gay marriage, the region's have the kind of autonomy that would make a German lander blush and the family of turds he left in charge traded away political power to become moochers for life.
Franco is just a political tool these days: the right loves to remember the good old days and complain about the degeneration of society and the left would rather forget the state sponsored terrorism they perpetrated.
But I forgot in my country, facts are a political opinion. And America is just discovering alt facts... Suckers.
Acidote
Member
In my opinion there are two different forces behind the push for Catalonian secession. An honest group of the Catalonian people who want it for cultural reasons, and a powerful Catalonian corrupt elite (just like pretty much the rest of Spain's) who want it for personal gain who use and abuse the former in their own benefit.
I don't really see it happening the way they're trying to make it happen, but we'll see.
Westbahnhof
Banned
I didn't see this answered before, but I might have missed it:
Which countries would even possibly officially recognize this potential country as a country, in case of an unconstitutional secession?
Which countries would even possibly officially recognize this potential country as a country, in case of an unconstitutional secession?
AcademicSaucer
Member
Kosovo
I'm a proponent of a "Europe of the regions" personally, because I'm convinced geographically close regions have generally more in common than the country they may currently be in. All under a strengthened and unified Europe-spanning government, of course, not a stupid Balkanization of the rest of Europe.
That said, the requirements for that to work properly are currently simply not met. The only possible result in the current situation is a weakening of all parties involved, and no one can want that. Well, except maybe for a few for whom a weird sense of "self-determination", even if only in theory, is more important than the well-being of their people.
I'm currently living close to a region with a historically strong separatist movement, South Tyrol. Outside Bozen/Bolzano (and Meran(o), a bit), it's the most un-Italian region in Italy, even if they became part of it after WWI. Repressed under Mussolini (and "When they acted as if he was still alive", as a South Tyrolean colleague once quipped), self-determination became an important topic after WWII, even involving the UN as well as a couple of terrorist acts mostly against infrastructure. Well, if you're in Austria, you probably won't hear the term "terrorist" to describe these people. And to this day, weather forecasts on the Austrian public service broadcaster include a forecast for South Tyrol.
Today, things have changed quite a lot. South Tyrol is the richest region of Italy by far, and they have a lot of autonomy rights. North Tyrol, South Tyrol and Trentino formed a "European region" to make working together easier. Most people north and south of the Brenner are satisfied with the current situation. There's still a separatist movement, but it's rather weak. South Tyrol would probably have a hard time existing on its own, so they currently basically have the best of both worlds.
Reading a bit on Catalonia, it seems it's quite similar there. So yes, in an idealistic way, I understand the will to self-determination, I just don't think it's really helpful for anyone in the current situation.
That said, the requirements for that to work properly are currently simply not met. The only possible result in the current situation is a weakening of all parties involved, and no one can want that. Well, except maybe for a few for whom a weird sense of "self-determination", even if only in theory, is more important than the well-being of their people.
I'm currently living close to a region with a historically strong separatist movement, South Tyrol. Outside Bozen/Bolzano (and Meran(o), a bit), it's the most un-Italian region in Italy, even if they became part of it after WWI. Repressed under Mussolini (and "When they acted as if he was still alive", as a South Tyrolean colleague once quipped), self-determination became an important topic after WWII, even involving the UN as well as a couple of terrorist acts mostly against infrastructure. Well, if you're in Austria, you probably won't hear the term "terrorist" to describe these people. And to this day, weather forecasts on the Austrian public service broadcaster include a forecast for South Tyrol.
Today, things have changed quite a lot. South Tyrol is the richest region of Italy by far, and they have a lot of autonomy rights. North Tyrol, South Tyrol and Trentino formed a "European region" to make working together easier. Most people north and south of the Brenner are satisfied with the current situation. There's still a separatist movement, but it's rather weak. South Tyrol would probably have a hard time existing on its own, so they currently basically have the best of both worlds.
Reading a bit on Catalonia, it seems it's quite similar there. So yes, in an idealistic way, I understand the will to self-determination, I just don't think it's really helpful for anyone in the current situation.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Not going to happen, because it not legal.
But if they actually got through by some means, the fall would be so hard (nobody wants to help them, like the EU) that they would be crawling back in the next 48 hours.
I also hate all this liying bullshit the catalonian goverment does to its people (and the worse part, to young people) as I have a huge chunk of family there that I visit each year, and they still feel spanish.
But if they actually got through by some means, the fall would be so hard (nobody wants to help them, like the EU) that they would be crawling back in the next 48 hours.
I also hate all this liying bullshit the catalonian goverment does to its people (and the worse part, to young people) as I have a huge chunk of family there that I visit each year, and they still feel spanish.
This is my main gripe with the Catalan independence movement.
"Vote for independence! The second we are free from evil Spain everything will be awesome and everyone will have a job and a rainbow flavoured unicorn!"
Worst part is that some people actually believe them
Which in itself isn't a country recognized by Spain.
Made for each other, I guess.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
This is my main gripe with the Catalan independence movement.
"Vote for independence! The second we are free from evil Spain everything will be awesome and everyone will have a job and a rainbow flavoured unicorn!"
Worst part is that some people actually believe them
Yup, not even to mention that from a history standpoint they really dont have any excuse for independence.
They were nothing in the old times and always part of Aragon's crown. They just twist facts so some people think they should have never been spanish in the first place, when they always were.
Heck, even Valencia has more historic excuses to go independent if they wanted than them.
No, its not like scotland, no, its not like portugal, no, its not like all contries we colonized in south america, all of those had clear motives for independence. Catalonia?
The cebtral government is stealing of us, seceed and will all be rich!
Yeah... because the catalonian government are not greedy motherfuckers themselves that are only using this to twist the problems they really have.
Why not, instead of seceeding and making a small region suffer for years to come, we try to kick the central governemnt out and make a better one for everybody in the future? But nope, seems is easier to create ghosts and fear.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
Good post...
Same goes for Bavaria. As a bavarian, culturally, I feel lot more attached to Austria and the "german speaking" parts of Switzerland.
On the contrary, going to Berlin, Düsseldorf or Hamburg feels like travelling to a foreign country to me.
What's the "actual historical, measurable event" here? That he's been dead for a while? Okay and? It's your interpretation that's the problem, and interpretations of historical events are always political.
Okay, and?
That's not how things like this work. He might be used sometimes as a political tool, but the actions of the past will always continue to effect the present.
Again you aren't really dealing with facts at all here, certainly not controversial ones. The only thing you've said is Franco is dead, and I think everyone is aware of that. The issue is how you used that information.
I'm not sure why having had a state in the past should matter for issues of national determination. It's pretty similar to Scotland, if you want to say it isn't because Scotland had a state, then it's pretty similar to Ireland which had never really had a central state that actually stood of its own volition.
Basically you're telling people to shut up and fall in line. I can respect arguments that we're better together and asking places like Catalonia to stay, not so much in Britain's case for obvious reasons, but that's very different that essentially telling people they are stupid for wanting national self-determination.
But you hit on a key point here. Nations are quite arbitrary, I mean Catalonia is part of the modern Spanish state because of feudal coincidence. That hardly sounds like a strong argument for anything to me.
His Majesty
Banned
A united Europe of regions is a model that also appeals to me and one we should strive for. I see it as the logical evolution of the nation state. I myself am from Flanders and the overarching federal level here just does not make sense anymore in a European context.
ClosingADoor
Member
Holy Roman Empire: Part 2? Not really against it, but in a modern context it would then pretty much be like the US but with a lot more states.
DarthMasta
Member
A "Europe of regions" could make sense in a federalized Europe, but it won't come true until the nations themselves are little more than a "holding container" for the regions themselves. I wouldn't hold my breath, a federalized Europe in that sense will probably never truly happen, or not while any of us are still around to see it.
As for Catalan independence, well, don't really have an opinion, but anyone who thinks a Catalonia who declares independence against the will of Spain is going to have an easy life is deluding themselves. No European country wants to empower it's own independence movements, and there are loads, don't expect friendship. Also, as long as Spain gets a say in EU membership, no EU for "rebel regions" who declare independence.
Catalonia would need Spain's approval for it to be at all like business as usual, I think...
As for Catalan independence, well, don't really have an opinion, but anyone who thinks a Catalonia who declares independence against the will of Spain is going to have an easy life is deluding themselves. No European country wants to empower it's own independence movements, and there are loads, don't expect friendship. Also, as long as Spain gets a say in EU membership, no EU for "rebel regions" who declare independence.
Catalonia would need Spain's approval for it to be at all like business as usual, I think...
I think I'm a weird case, but as a person born and living in Andalucía, I fully support Catalonia's independence. If there is such a big demand for it, why can't they have a binding referendum? Let the people vote, and then act accordingly.
Different Spanish governments over the years have covered their ears and ignored this issue, hoping it would just go away, but it won't. Just let them vote on it!
Different Spanish governments over the years have covered their ears and ignored this issue, hoping it would just go away, but it won't. Just let them vote on it!
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Under the current regime seccecionism hasn't had much popular support until the recession.
Your "different Spanish governments" is just one, the current one.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I think it's pretty easy to visualize a sort of ideal Federal Europe whereby countries don't really exist and instead you have everyone divided up along self-determined lines into national groups, then larger national groups are split into several sub-units for representation purposes, like "North / West / South" Germany encompassing Germany, Austria and maybe some Swiss Belgian border towns (so that you don't end up with a giant blob of "Germany" and "France" then half of Europe split up into ethnic microstates).
The problem is how you get there. National level governments are not likely to ever want to surrender their traditional powers. A "realistic" Federal Europe (assuming there is such a thing) is both a lot weaker and has substantially worse autonomy for subnational groups. A country like Belgium is something that logically would be torn three directions if you were just trying to draw neat lines on the ground from an ethnolinguistic perspective (not necessarily if it came to a popular vote mind you!), and substantially less influential as merely parts of other subdivisions than on its own as a state. Countries like Spain would probably not want their richest breakaway regions getting full autonomy, for that weakens the broader national group.
Business
Member
This is my main gripe with the Catalan independence movement.
"Vote for independence! The second we are free from evil Spain everything will be awesome and everyone will have a job and a rainbow flavoured unicorn!"
Worst part is that some people actually believe them
To be honest I have never heard of this stupid rethoric but from people against Catalonia's independence when they try to paint independence supporters as fools. The worst part is you actually believe it.
This is my main gripe with the Catalan independence movement.
"Vote for independence! The second we are free from evil Spain everything will be awesome and everyone will have a job and a rainbow flavoured unicorn!"
Worst part is that some people actually believe them
Nobody supporting independence says this, nobody. The worst part is people believe this is a new thing when in reality it's been brewing for decades and now they act like this is a recent invention. And the successive governments have been doing nothing all these years, what's more, they've been treating the movement as a joke until it's been too late. And they still haven't held serious discussions to solve the issue, THAT'S the problem.
intheinbetween
Member
As a spaniard I see this independance push from Catalonia as a blackmail to get funds and other benefits, as the Basque Country got decades ago. Also, Catalonia politicians know this is the only road they can take, otherwise they will have to quit and call elections.
I agree they should be able to have a referendum, but not like this, if they want to vote for auto-determination they should act according to our constitution, and it actually doesn't allow that, so, for the sake of democracy, first try to change that, do it properly not like they want to because they're worth it.
I agree they should be able to have a referendum, but not like this, if they want to vote for auto-determination they should act according to our constitution, and it actually doesn't allow that, so, for the sake of democracy, first try to change that, do it properly not like they want to because they're worth it.
Would not mind them voting yes to it, only to see the falldown and the reality hit them in the face.
TBH this shit has gone for too long already, thanks to the spanish government who has 1) ignored the nationalism raise because it benefited them and 2) when the problem has become real, ignored everything and instead of trying to build a relationship and works things out, just covered their ears and keep shouting "ILEGAL!", like that was gonna fix anything.
Of course, the catalonian government hasn't done any better with the brainwashing, finger pointing everything bad at "spain" and their bullshitting hide of their own corruption.
So yeah, there is no fix here. Spanish government wont do shit, just ignore this and covers their ears, catalonian government wont do anything but to blame spain and paint the utopia, so yeah let them vote yes and GTFO. Let them realize their mistake and the utopia they have been sell crash to the ground. Then we can all sit like adults and talk it over with proper intentions of fixing this crap, hopefully with a different catalonian government and a different spanish government.
TBH this shit has gone for too long already, thanks to the spanish government who has 1) ignored the nationalism raise because it benefited them and 2) when the problem has become real, ignored everything and instead of trying to build a relationship and works things out, just covered their ears and keep shouting "ILEGAL!", like that was gonna fix anything.
Of course, the catalonian government hasn't done any better with the brainwashing, finger pointing everything bad at "spain" and their bullshitting hide of their own corruption.
So yeah, there is no fix here. Spanish government wont do shit, just ignore this and covers their ears, catalonian government wont do anything but to blame spain and paint the utopia, so yeah let them vote yes and GTFO. Let them realize their mistake and the utopia they have been sell crash to the ground. Then we can all sit like adults and talk it over with proper intentions of fixing this crap, hopefully with a different catalonian government and a different spanish government.
The problem is that any kind of independence referendum would require a constitutional reform/amendment in order to be legal, which in turn needs the support from all major political parties (which are from Madrid and are against it, excluding Podemos).
Since this is a stalemate which won't be resolved anytime soon, Catalonian independentists are playing their own game.
I have lived in Barcelona for almost 6 years now and, while I obviously exaggerated in my post (I thought I made that clear with the rainbow coloured unicorns, apparently not), I have definitely met people who think that absolutely everything will be better if/when independence is gained. Hell, there's a sign hanging from one of the balconies in my neighbourhood that says something along the lines of 'INDEPENDENCE MEANS JOBS'.
Also, I haven't stated anywhere that I am against Catalan independence. I am all for allowing them (me included) to decide their future. However, the current plan by the government of Catalonia is ridiculous as an unilateral referendum means jack shit, especially taking into account the many ridiculous 'rules' around it, such as not needing a majority as in (+50% of the electorate) to vote for them to consider it binding.
So yeah. Maybe get off your high horse.
I agree with this, though. Lack of dialogue has seriously worsened the situation and that is mostly on the central government.
intheinbetween
Member
Exactly.
However I also agree with itxaka, if it were on me I would allow them to vote and split from Spain as I'm kinda sick of these independance claims, as if people in Catalonia were any better than people in other regions, call it Andalucía, Madrid, Com. Valenciana, Galicia, Cantabria, etc. If they believe they would be better off Spain, ok, go ahead, but they better be prepared for what's to come, because from my understading it won't be any better.
Business
Member
From my Catalan perspective, I saddens me to just keep seing the same bullshit being spitted over and over again from the Spanish perspective, this very thread is litterd with it.
- Politicians brainwashed the people, they tricked them.
- Politicians want to hide corruption with all this (also implied, Catalans are corrupt, more so than the rest of the country, they need a guardian).
- Catalans want to blackmail the state for more money (the ages long greedy stereotype, yes we are like the Jews of Spain).
- It's illegal, the constitution doesn't allow it, sorry. Come back when we make it legal, we don't ever want to make it legal let me warn you, but try forever and don't lose hope, you never know!
- We will send the army.
Bravo, it's all very convincing.
- Politicians brainwashed the people, they tricked them.
- Politicians want to hide corruption with all this (also implied, Catalans are corrupt, more so than the rest of the country, they need a guardian).
- Catalans want to blackmail the state for more money (the ages long greedy stereotype, yes we are like the Jews of Spain).
- It's illegal, the constitution doesn't allow it, sorry. Come back when we make it legal, we don't ever want to make it legal let me warn you, but try forever and don't lose hope, you never know!
- We will send the army.
Bravo, it's all very convincing.
I have lived in Barcelona all my life and I see year after year fascist morons going to plaça Espanya the 12th of October to sing Cara al sol. So what? You will find uninformed and/or stupid people inside every movement. The reality is that there's no global message saying that everything will be wonderful if they succeed, and I do agree this is a jump to the abyss without parachute due to the bad handling of the process from all parties involved, but let's try not to lie here.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Wow. Had no idea this was such a real possibility.
Edit: apparently it isn't...
Edit: apparently it isn't...
intheinbetween
Member
It's not about people in Catalonia, it's about politicians, and they will NEVER tell you their real intentions, politicians have been playing with us for decades, whether your are catalonian, basque, etc.
I'm sorry, but it's true, it's illegal, accept it and work around to fix it first, we live in a democracy you have the tools to change it.
intheinbetween
Member
It's not a real possibility, they don't have the power to do it, they're playing their game until the very end.
Hesemonni
Banned
Move to California. Just for shits and giggles.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Should have read more replies before posting, my bad.
Well, maybe I didn't word my original post correctly, it was never my intention to say that absolutely everyone who is pro-independence is deluded/has been tricked. I would assume that was more than obvious.
Lol. I think you are the only one who sees that implication, mate. No offence.
Also, apart from the Pujol scandal, I don't think anyone can beat the corruption in Madrid/Valencia so I really don't know where you getting that from.
RocknRola
Member
Don't even have much interested in this whole discussion, but arguably they really don't. I find it very doubtful that the central goverment in Madrid will ever allow, unless they are actively forced to do so, anything at all that could give any region in Spain full independence.
intheinbetween
Member
Well, technically they do, instead of taking this path they should embrace the Constitution, work with other parties and force to change it, they can, but yeah, taking this path is easier and it will satisfy many of their die-hard voters, however it won't lead to a good ending.
Sorry if I came as aggressive, but the bolded part is a mantra spewed out constantly by the people against and though it should be obvious as you say, in reality it's not.
If they finally take the urns to the streets I'll vote no, probably, I don't like what the movement has become. But I do want to see tanks so that the international community at last see the joke Spain is.
Business
Member
Indeed. It's like hitting a brick wall. Personally I'm tired of this discussion as well because I've seen the arguments a thousand times. Just let us vote, just like Quebec and just like Scotland, we will accept the result. The constitution can be adapted if there's the political will, Spain just needs to be a decent 21st century state. Instead, only threats, the vote is illegal, politicians will face consequences, state workers will face consequences, pensionists will stop getting their money, we will never allow you in the EU. You know what, good bye.
intheinbetween
Member
Quebec and Scotland are different examples, you should know that, so don't use them because I've heard/read that many times and you still fail to understand it.
And no, you won't accept the result, you will most likely try it again later down the road, so please, accept it too.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
How about the tour the seccecionist organisations financed with public money are making on the unemployment stricken cities around Barcelona promising jobs for everybody if Catalonia secedes.
Business
Member
Maybe you can explain me how then.
"Can't let you vote because if you lose another day you might want to vote again." Brilliant.
lol. It never stops. Source?
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