phisheep said:

I think also that those who rely on the "evil Tories" line or something like it don't realise that it is counterproductive. Sure, it talks to the base and it's got emotional appeal and fight the good fight and all that, and it doesn't require all that much actual thinking.

But the argument falls to pieces when people meet actual real-life non-evil Tories, so it tends to ghettoise support.

Click to expand...

QuicheFontaine said:

"They"? Who do you mean? To me it just looks like a journalist looking for an angle that isn't really there.

Click to expand...

tomtom94 said:

For me personally it's the last election and the £8 billion of uncosted welfare cuts. And the fact that while the Tories immediately began backpedalling on a whole load of other campaign promises, that was one of the few lines in the sand they wouldn't go back across.

I have sympathy for people who swallowed Cameron's idea of a modern, fairly liberal, business-friendly (European) Tory party, and I'd completely understand the sort of person for whom Corbyn is just too left-wing, but... basically people try to get out of it and say "well, it was the least worst option" or "I couldn't vote for Miliband", and that isn't good enough for me. If you vote FOR a party you should be able to justify that.

This isn't personally targeted at you, by the way, I'm just putting out there why people slip into it.

Click to expand...

CyclopsRock said:

Obviously people disagree and everyone thinks their way is the right one - that's why they think it. If they thought someone elses was the right way, they'd think that. But I think that most of the right recognise that your Corbyns and your McDonnels and whoever are doing absolutely what they think is best. Even when they're talking about their buddies in the IRA and Hezzbollah, I understand that it's coming from a place where they want to help. I Don't understand why that view's not reciprocated and the discussions happen on what policy works best for what problem, rather than the weird shit above which is basically a scary story that get told to kids who don't eat all their veg.

Click to expand...

kmag said:

Because the 'tweaks' made by the coalition and the Tories have been all about giving people the best chance they can to succeed.

My wife is a social worker working with mainly families with disabled children, and while in Scotland we're mostly inured to the worst of the Tory 'tweaks', even here the degradation to the system in recent years is fucking frightening.

Nothing about the Tories policies in regards to welfare are about improvement of service, they're all about saving money. That's why they've continually cut the welfare bill (you know without actually cutting the biggest part of it because you know old cunts vote Tory). You can convince yourself it's all about improving the chances of people, it's not. There's nothing about improving the life chances of someone by making late stage terminally ill undertake work assessments, or for immediately deducting housing benefit from someone when their kid dies and they happen to now have a room free. But, hey if it helps you sleep at night.

I'd perhaps agree with you to a degree on say employment benefit, where there's very much a (tiny) carrot and (massive) stick approach. Which is clearly a right wing approach to getting people back to work. I can understand the appeal and some of the logic, but that frankly that's a very small proportion of the welfare bill. The right wing approach to the rest of the welfare system, the health care system, the social care system and the local government system very much seems to be stress it until it breaks and let private enterprise pick up the pieces.

I can understand people voting for right wing parties, although I'd like to think most of them just ignore most of the worst stuff in favour of some of the economic stuff (although the Tory track record there is pretty shitty and has been pre-financial crisis as well).

Click to expand...

Real Hero said:

Proportional representation?

Click to expand...

Meadows said:

Eh? I didn't post that...

Click to expand...

Surrey Labour party could vote to back a Liberal Democrat candidate next week to try to unseat the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, defying the national party which has said it will not entertain any “progressive alliance”.

Click to expand...

Linkstrikesback said:

You don't have to read the right wing press to hear about the headlines. That's the beauty of it. Most people don't buy the daily mail, but you sure as heck hear about the stupid ass headlines they have regardless.

If it came down to each persons policies, and nothing else, Corbyn would never have the poor public opinion he does. The media, and yes, the tories, made a deliberate and targetted campaign against his person from day 1. It's a lot like Trump against Hilary, actually. not quite as bombasticly stupid as that example, but perhaps even more effective. Roleros thought that Corbyn "makes it far too easy for his critics every single time, and, more importantly, the media is what it is." is right on the money, of course, but it's still much more the deliberate plan of the Tories/media to keep the opposition down because they quite well aware they'd never do it on the policies they have alone.

Fortunately the other two people who quoted me agree and didn't degrade to insults instantly, so as a best of 3, I declare you the deluded one. (And this is meant as very tongue in cheek, just in case it isn't obvious enough.)

Click to expand...

former Shadow Culture Minister said:

Mr Corbyn appointed me and press released this without my knowledge or consent whilst I was in the middle of cancer treatment. He then sacked me the next day when he realized he had given away part of someone else's role. But didn't bother to tell me that either.

Click to expand...

former Shadow Transport Minister said:

Incredibly, Jeremy launched a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle on the same day. This was the reshuffle that had been talked about since the Syria vote a month earlier. A vote where I supported Jeremy's position. The reshuffle that meant all our staff spent Christmas not knowing whether they'd have a job by the New Year. By mid-afternoon the press were camped outside the Leader's office. They were there for the next 3 days.

It knocked all the coverage of the rail fare rise and our public ownership policy off every news channel and every front page.

Click to expand...

former Shadow Minister for Children said:

My office and I spent months preparing for a Labour Party review into special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) to feed into Labour's manifesto for the 2020 General Election. I identified the issues we needed to address; I raised questions in the chamber; I met stakeholders to discuss the review, and my staff put together a briefing for the wider PLP and the Leadership Office, and worked to get media coverage. Three days after the launch, I found out that my review had been completely undermined by our Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.

Without consulting me, John had announced his support for a Shadow Neurodiversity Minister and an autism manifesto. My office picked up John's announcement on Twitter, and subsequently raised the issue with him, requesting an opportunity to meet to discuss the matter further. After receiving no response, my team made several more attempts to reach out to John's office, which were all met with no answer.

Click to expand...

Former Shadow Health Secretary said:

”John McDonnell invited NHS campaigners to a meeting in the Commons but didn't invite me. I challenged him about it. I was then invited and I was shouted at by some of the attendees."

After that meeting on 13 April, she said, ”John McDonnell then invited them to form an advisory group (again not telling me). I found out about this, said it was totally unacceptable and it must not be an advisory group."

Click to expand...

creator of Corbynomics said:

I had the opportunity to see what was happening inside the PLP. The leadership wasn't confusing as much as just silent. There was no policy direction, no messaging, no direction, no co-ordination, no nothing. Shadow ministers appeared to have been left with no direction as to what to do. It was shambolic. The leadership usually couldn't even get a press release out on time to meet print media deadlines and then complained they got no coverage.

Click to expand...

The Independent said:

Last autumn, I complained when a Saturday speech by Corbyn was released far too late on a Friday to secure much space in the next day's Independent. ”It won't happen again," Corbyn's office assured me. Seven days on, another Saturday speech arrived – an hour later than the previous one. I know this sounds like trivial gossip from the Westminster village but on each occasion, incompetence prevented Corbyn from getting positive media coverage.

Click to expand...

This isn't personally targeted at you, by the way, I'm just putting out there why people slip into it.

Click to expand...

If you vote FOR a party you should be able to justify that.

Click to expand...

Hazzuh said:

Perhaps the real reason Farage isn't standing?

Click to expand...

Mr. Sam said:

I can only imagine Republicans would be even less well received in a UK political thread, but that's beside the point.

Click to expand...

phisheep said:

Absolutely agree. Though sometimes it gets to the point where there's no value even trying to justify it in the face of unthought-through vitriol (as Republican voters found in PoliGaf last year, as Brexiteers found in the referendum thread, and as NRA-type people and gun-controllers both find in every gun control thread ever, and as I hope doesn't happen in this one).

It cuts both ways too. If I'm going to attempt to justify my voting intentions then I expect to be met with better arguments than unwarranted accusations of genocide and 'anything but the evil Tories'.

Click to expand...

TimmmV said:

A lot goes into whether someone is willing to discuss something and how they phrase their arguments - its why people (well, in my opinion anyway) respond to posters like you or CyclopsRock, (and occasionally even QuicheFontaine) fairly reasonably.

The really venomous replies are generally only reserved if someone is saying something particularly ignorant or stupid - as often seen in the Brexit OT to posters that I wont single out.

Click to expand...

StayDead said:

Especially if you don't want the Conservatives to have a majority again! It's so important, now more than ever.

Click to expand...

phisheep said:

I'm still chatting to my customers about politics. I think this will be a difficult election to poll. So far - in just a couple of days - I've found examples of people shifting votes from and to every party, with two exceptions: nobody is shifting to UKIP and nobody is shifting away from LibDems.

Click to expand...

Roberto Larcos said:

Where are you based? And what is your clientele?

Click to expand...

Royal_Phalanx said:

If people want blue passports so bad, I want them to consider some of these designs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39455495

I at least, want a modern, good looking passport.

Click to expand...

Huw_Dawson said:

That Fish Finger story is amazing. But why against Tim Farron?

Click to expand...

The page reads: "This seat has been held since 2005 by Tim Farron, who lost to a fish finger - by a margin of around 99% - in a poll of over 1,000 people, when asked "Who would you trust to lead you more?".

Click to expand...

Maledict said:

They also implemented Section 28, a nasty piece of legislation that had a significant impact on anyone gay growing up in the 80s and 90s like myself. I didn't eve realise I was gay until I hit 20 thanks to that shitty piece of legislation, and spent my teenage years hating myself for it.

Click to expand...

Royal_Phalanx said:

If people want blue passports so bad, I want them to consider some of these designs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39455495

I at least, want a modern, good looking passport.

I want to vote Lib Dems, but I have to vote Labour (and my MP is a centrist anti-Brexit kind of guy and defied Corbyn over it) because it's a Labour safe seat. He regularly wins by huge majorities here.

Click to expand...

Your ideology...

Left-Wing

Your political beliefs would be considered moderately Left-Wing on an ideological scale, meaning you tend to support policies that promote social and economic equality.

Click to expand...

HaloRose said:

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

Click to expand...

HaloRose said:

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

Click to expand...

HaloRose said:

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

Click to expand...

Par Score said:

Theresa May, leader of the Conservatives and the current PM, voted against its repeal. I can't see that as anything other than an act of malicious evil, it is impossible for me to do so.

Click to expand...

DBT85 said:

And it will continue to be one if people think like this and don't vote.

Click to expand...

EleventhHourSuperpower said:

You should still vote (and vote Labour). It's a civic duty to vote.

Click to expand...

Par Score said:

It's on this point exactly that I struggle to have sympathy for those pushing against the "Evil Tories" narrative.

Section 28 is one of the most hateful, damaging and downright abusive pieces of legislation ever to be passed. I'm not making some abstract point here about how fucking horrible homophobia in general is either. Section 28 has had a genuine, lasting, and profoundly negative impact on my life, and the lives of many people I know and love.

Theresa May, leader of the Conservatives and the current PM, voted against its repeal. I can't see that as anything other than an act of malicious evil, it is impossible for me to do so.


Now, should I tar all Conservatives with this same brush? Frankly, she's your bloody leader, and if you vote for them, you vote for her.

Click to expand...

Roberto Larcos said:

Cameron voted against its repeal, May abstained. Which is still rancid, all things considered.

Click to expand...

blazinglord said:

Also, didn't Theresa May push for and voted for gay marriage?

I mean, I am not denying that May is very right wing on some social issues, notably immigration, but context and looking at the whole picture is important here. The 80's and 90's were a very different time, and a lot of people's views have evolved considerably over the past twenty years.

Click to expand...

HaloRose said:

No point voting me i live in labour safe seat. it's being a safe seat for last 85 years now so no point.

Click to expand...

satriales said:

Still get out and vote.
I live in a safe Tory seat, that's only ever been Tory for like a hundred years, yet I'll be voting Labour again no matter how pointless it may be.

Click to expand...

EleventhHourSuperpower said:

You should still vote (and vote Labour). It's a civic duty to vote.

Click to expand...

MightBeMagic said:

Personally I'd make it illegal not to vote. The 'no point' argument doesn't wash with me.

People died for our right to vote, and politics affects EVERYONE whether you like it or not.

Click to expand...

MightBeMagic said:

Personally I'd make it illegal not to vote. The 'no point' argument doesn't wash with me.

People died for our right to vote, and politics affects EVERYONE whether you like it or not.

Click to expand...

QuicheFontaine said:

Meh, they have compulsory voting in Australia, and a mate of mine from there says that it just means people who want to abstain have to go down to the polling station and spoil their ballot. If people don't want to vote I say let them. Just gives my vote slightly more power.

Click to expand...

pigeon said:

Evidence suggests when voting is mandatory the candidate at the top of the ballot outperforms the polls.

Yes, you can solve this by randomizing, but the salient point is that mandatory voting does not necessarily make things more democratic if a certain percentage of voters deliberately vote in a way not likely to maximize their political interests.

Click to expand...

TimmmV said:

You think thats how Corbyns thoughts on the IRA and Hezbollah (or also the Falklands) have been portrayed? Come on

Click to expand...

Vagabundo said:

Tory spin doctors/May supporters, whoever is peddling these theories. I've seen this idea floating around the place; that May is a secretly soft on brexit and it is the looney backbenchers holding her to ransom, if only she had he an overwhelming majority she could steer the UK to a safe harbour.

Click to expand...