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Let's talk about a small scene from Raimi's Spider-Man 2...

Here's the thing about quips that SM2 apologists never seem to get. Raimi made a great film that will always be a favorite of mine but over the course of 3 movies, you very rarely got a sense of how much Peter enjoys being Spider-man. A few whoos while web slinging and one or two jokes don't really cut it. He kinda-sorta tried to show the fun of being Spider-man in SM3 but made the mistake of turning Peter into a complete asshole in the process. Quips aren't a necessity, and Raimi did just fine without them, but it's understandable why fans of the character would want Spider-man to act like Spider-man.

we gonna act like plenty of people don't treat them as a necessity and then in the process prop up the Amazing Spider-Man films, the poster children for soulless corporate garbage, because they have more jokes? it's putting what's "faithful" to the source material above all else and i think it's fucking bonkers
 
we gonna act like plenty of people don't treat them as a necessity and then in the process prop up the Amazing Spider-Man films, the poster children for soulless corporate garbage, because they have more jokes? it's putting what's "faithful" to the source material above all else and i think it's fucking bonkers

Er, how common is it for people to prop up the ASM films though, really?

Besides, the quips in ASM were garbo too
 

ItIsOkBro

Member
Here's the thing about quips that SM2 apologists never seem to get. Raimi made a great film that will always be a favorite of mine but over the course of 3 movies, you very rarely got a sense of how much Peter enjoys being Spider-man. A few whoos while web slinging and one or two jokes don't really cut it. He kinda-sorta tried to show the fun of being Spider-man in SM3 but made the mistake of turning Peter into a complete asshole in the process. Quips aren't a necessity, and Raimi did just fine without them, but it's understandable why fans of the character would want Spider-man to act like Spider-man.

are you supposed to get a sense that he enjoys being spider-man? a large portion of the film is dedicated to the idea that it's interfering with his school, love life, job, friends, and family. it makes for way better drama and consistency than if he outright enjoyed being spider-man.
 
...and how such a short interaction can communicate volumes to an audience about who the character is.

At the beginning of Raimi's film, we have a pretty insignificant scene where Mary Jane and Harry come over to Aunt May's to celebrate Peter's birthday with a quaint dinner catch up. After MJ and Harry leave, we get a scene that runs less than a minute, where Peter finds out Aunt May is late on her mortgage payments, before she tries to give him $20 dollars for his birthday. And in that moment you see Peter and May's reactions follow. Aunt May's desperate 'Yes you can. You can take this money from me. And don't you dare leave it behind.'

Because of course, it implies that this broke-ass Peter Parker always leaves the money that she tries to give him behind, despite badly needing it, because his sense of responsibility always sees him putting others before himself. This is a great and logical place/reminder to start Peter's arc from in the second film. And the performances really sell it.



Homecoming spoilers below.


After watching Spider-Man: Homecoming, with its incredibly shallow development of Peter Parker as a kid who goes from Avengers groupie who wants to be part of the band, to a kid who sort-of learns to be independent and rely on himself, but never in a way that isn't directly spoken out loud to the audience and telegraphed by the (six?) writers. Basically, you have a 2 hour movie that still can't clearly show the character arc of its hero without announcing it.

Watching Homecoming really reinforced my appreciation of not just the earnest, emotionally-honest, nature of Raimi's Spider-man, but of how tightly woven and smartly built Peter Parker's character development is.

well said,

Homecoming fails at tapping into Peter's sense of responsiblity in a credible manor.

Peteter does what he does in Homecoming to impress fuckin' Robert Downy Junior. And it revolves all around wanting to be an Avenger more than being a the hero that is supposed to be

I rank Homecoming beloew SM1 and SM2 because the movie did nothing for me in terms of caring for my favorite super hero
 

WaterAstro

Member
There is also similarity to how Norman Osborn finds out Peter Parker is Spider-Man in the first film compared to how Vulture finds out about Peter Parker.
 
are you supposed to get a sense that he enjoys being spider-man? a large portion of the film is dedicated to the idea that it's interfering with his school, love life, job, friends, and family. it makes for way better drama and consistency than if he outright enjoyed being spider-man.

I'm not saying the absence of that hurts the Raimi films, just that it's no surprise fans of the character wished that aspect had been better incorporated into those movies.
 

killroy87

Member
well said,

Homecoming fails at tapping into Peter's sense of responsiblity in a credible manor.

Peteter does what he does in Homecoming to impress fuckin' Robert Downy Junior. And it revolves all around wanting to be an Avenger more than being a the hero that is supposed to be

I rank Homecoming beloew SM1 and SM2 because the movie did nothing for me in terms of caring for my favorite super hero

It's worth at least halfway considering that Peter in Homecoming is 15 years old. You're comparing him to adult Peter in SM2 who's caring for his old woman Aunt.

It's called Homecoming for many reasons, one of which being that your following a high school kid who, along with being a superhero, has a life that revolves around things like Homecoming dances. I think they did a pretty good job about balancing Peter as a genuine, friendly, good natured 15 year old without going overboard and making him a saccharine goodie two shoes. They still need to retain a bit of bratty kid in him, thats part of what will make his growth over multiple films rewarding.

People here are comparing one movie with multiple, and two different portrayals of characters.
 

Davide

Member
well said,

Homecoming fails at tapping into Peter's sense of responsiblity in a credible manor.

Peteter does what he does in Homecoming to impress fuckin' Robert Downy Junior. And it revolves all around wanting to be an Avenger more than being a the hero that is supposed to be
Peter basically sacrifices his relationship with Liz to take down the Vulture after Tony's already taken his suit away "forever".
 
Spider-Man 2 is one of the best superhero movies of all time, so it's going to wipe the floor with most of the things you put it up against IMO.

Still really liked Homecoming Peter actually felt like a teenage and the Vulture was the best Marvel villain since Loke.
 

Doran902

Member
I really liked Homecoming but like most of the MCU they are fun spectacle comedies on first viewing but they don't hold up as much on repeat viewings for me because you know the jokes and you've seen the fights and they don't write the character development and have the nuance that Spiderman 2 had. The need to explain to the audience what is happening to the characters and their journeys in Homecoming vs Spiderman 2's style of showing it through decisions and subtle behaviours is worlds apart for me. Gives the older movies much more heart.

Homecoming Spiderman behaved more like comic Spiderman but for me that doesn't make it the better movie.
 
I really liked Homecoming but like most of the MCU they are fun spectacle comedies on first viewing but they don't hold up as much on repeat viewings for me because you know the jokes and you've seen the fights and they don't write the character development and have the nuance that Spiderman 2 had. The need to explain to the audience what is happening to the characters and their journeys in Homecoming vs Spiderman 2's style of showing it through decisions and subtle behaviours is worlds apart for me. Gives the older movies much more heart.

Homecoming Spiderman behaved more like comic Spiderman but for me that doesn't make it the better movie.

This is an example of a wrong opinion. MCU movies are all about character development. If you don't think so then you really haven't been paying attention.
 

killroy87

Member
This is an example of a wrong opinion. MCU movies are all about character development. If you don't think so then you really haven't been paying attention.

I was debating a similar post, but decided against it. Reducing most Marvel movies down to spectacle is ridiculously reductive. Captain America 2 & 3 alone show incredible character development (even better than in Spider Man 2, as crazy as it sounds, though that's partially due to them having more movies of MCU development under their belt)
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
You're right about that scene, but you're wrong about Homecoming. There's more to Peter Parker than the weepy, "everything sucks" Raimi depiction, even though that part of Spider-Man has its place and was probably the best angle to take at the time the Raimi films were made.

Spider-Man 2, for reasons like the scene you cite, is a better superhero movie than Homecoming. But Homecoming is the best big screen depiction of the Spider-Man character ever. Because the character in Homecoming encompasses the full character and person of both sides of the identity. Raimi only ever nailed the one facet. Within a few movies the MCU Spider-Man will leave the Raimi Spider-Man fully in the dust in terms of putting the comic character onscreen. And if you're trying to pull the "complete it in one movie" excuse as a disqualifier, well, you're the one citing Spider-Man 2.
 

scitek

Member
Can we talk about why MJ broke up with Peter in Spider-Man 3? Because Harry threatened to kill him? Did she forget that Peter's Spider-Man and could handle him? Or that Peter had already beaten him once with little effort? What would have been the issue with MJ telling Peter that Harry blackmailed her into doing it under the threat of his death? It's not like he had a sniper trained on Peter at the time. And even if he did, his Spider Sense would probably notify him the moment Harry squeezed the trigger.

On top of that, like 10 minutes later Peter finds out that Harry was behind it anyway and goes to beat the crap out of him regardless, making the blackmail effectively pointless from MJ's end.

I'm still convinced Raimi intentionally torpedoed the third film because of Sony's meddling.
 
You're right about that scene, but you're wrong about Homecoming. There's more to Peter Parker than the weepy, "everything sucks" Raimi depiction, even though that part of Spider-Man has its place and was probably the best angle to take at the time the Raimi films were made.

Spider-Man 2, for reasons like the scene you cite, is a better superhero movie than Homecoming. But Homecoming is the best big screen depiction of the Spider-Man character ever. Because the character in Homecoming encompasses the full character and person of both sides of the identity. Raimi only ever nailed the one facet. Within a few movies the MCU Spider-Man will leave the Raimi Spider-Man fully in the dust in terms of putting the comic character onscreen. And if you're trying to pull the "complete it in one movie" excuse as a disqualifier, well, you're the one citing Spider-Man 2.
Who cares if the scene I'm talking about Spider-Man 2? That's completely irrelevant to the point you're trying to make because Spider-Man 1 had a fully formed, well developed arc for Peter Parker.
 
Who cares if the scene I'm talking about Spider-Man 2? That's completely irrelevant to the point you're trying to make because Spider-Man 1 had a fully formed, well developed arc for Peter Parker.

What did Peter learn by the end of the movie that he didn't learn halfway through when Ben died?
 

Hero

Member
I love how you made a separate thread to not so subtly shit on Homecoming.

Raimi's Parker got the classic Uncle Ben schtick and then continued to be whiny and mopey about not being able to put himself first. New Parker has yet to hesitate to do the right thing.

You can love SM2 all you want, it exists and you can watch it as much as you want while knowing fully how terrible SM3 is after it.
 

Doran902

Member
What did Peter learn by the end of the movie that he didn't learn halfway through when Ben died?

Idk about "learn" but the "don't tell Harry" line and laying Norman down on the couch and being the villain in Harry's eyes to protect his fathers legacy / humanity for his best friend was probably my favourite part of that movie and a great way to end it.
 
Idk about "learn" but the "don't tell Harry" line and laying Norman down on the couch and being the villain in Harry's eyes to protect his fathers legacy / humanity for his best friend was probably my favourite part of that movie and a great way to end it.

Yeah that was great :)

It didn't really contribute to his arc though.
 
I was debating a similar post, but decided against it. Reducing most Marvel movies down to spectacle is ridiculously reductive. Captain America 2 & 3 alone show incredible character development (even better than in Spider Man 2, as crazy as it sounds, though that's partially due to them having more movies of MCU development under their belt)

???

Captain America is a static character that barely develops at all. It isn't necessarily a bad thing but he's literally the exact same character in both movies, just in different scenarios.
 

killroy87

Member
???

Captain America is a static character that barely develops at all. It isn't necessarily a bad thing but he's literally the exact same character in both movies, just in different scenarios.
Literally? Literally the exact same?

He's a military man for life, and Winter Soldier basically shatters the foundation of trust in everything he's stood for. And then Civil War takes that shattered trust and has him feuding with one of his best friends about whether or not to put trust in a governmental organization. He's literally forced to rethink everything he believed in and stood for, and he walks out of Civil War a drastically different person.
 

Hero

Member
Literally? Literally the exact same?

He's a military man for life, and Winter Soldier basically shatters the foundation of trust in everything he's stood for. And then Civil War takes that shattered trust and has his feuding with one of his best friends about whether or not to put trust in a governmental organization. He's literally forced to rethink everything he believed in and stood for, and he walks out of Civil War a drastically different person.

Steve Rogers goes through a lot of character development throughout his movies and the Avengers. In fact, him finding Hydra weapons aboard the helicarrier in Avengers is what caused him to question the modern government's motives which were then fully realized in Winter Soldier. Even after that is settled he can't agree to letting The Avengers become the UN's private elite force and literally fights his friends and teammates over. He never faltered.
 
What did Peter learn by the end of the movie that he didn't learn halfway through when Ben died?
That his sense of responsibility, his duty, is greater than fulfilling his own desires. For as much as Uncle Ben's death taught Peter to use his powers for good, he was still chasing after his own desires - namely MJ. To the point where he felt spurned by Harry revealing he was dating her. He wants MJ the whole film and even has that upside-down kiss with her.

By the end of the film, MJ is offering Peter every want and desire of his heart, and he turns it down in order to continue to serve a greater purpose bigger than himself.
 
I really liked Homecoming and Tom Holland is an excellent Peter Parker/Spider-Man, but Tobey will always be the definitive Peter Parker/Spider-Man to me, and the example laid out in the OP solidifies that.

I'm sure we can all relate to both Tom and Tobey's Parkers, I'm sure most of us were that awkward, nerdy, high schooler, but Tobey's performance resonates with me more on an emotional level because I also grew up with parents who had to live paycheck-to-paycheck.

And yeah, the Birthday Scene still makes me choke up.
 
That his sense of responsibility, his duty, is greater than fulfilling his own desires. For as much as Uncle Ben's death taught Peter to use his powers for good, he was still chasing after his own desires - namely MJ. To the point where he felt spurned by Harry revealing he was dating her. He wants MJ the whole film and even has that upside-down kiss with her.

By the end of the film, MJ is offering Peter every want and desire of his heart, and he turns it down in order to continue to serve a greater purpose bigger than himself.

Yeah he learns all that halfway through the movie. It's a reinforcement, sure, but his character doesn't change at all once he becomes Spider-Man.
 
So, I'm confused, are the Raimi movies good again? Because I could've sworn the board had decided they'd join X-Men and X2 on the "overrated as fuck" pile not two weeks ago.
 

Xe4

Banned
So, I'm confused, are the Raimi movies good again? Because I could've sworn the board had decided they'd join X-Men and X2 on the "overrated as fuck" pile not two weeks ago.

Are you trying to make some meta-analysis of NeoGAF? Cause, you know different people have different opinions and stuff.
 
Essentially the version the average person can relate to more is better. Homecoming doesn't do Peter Parker / Spider-Man service because the only reason I see people explaining why he's good is because he resembles a version of the character they like. This skews their perception and will lessen any faults the movie does have. The supporting cast of mediocrity gets a huge pass for some reason. Homecoming is a very shallow and empty movie when you examine it.
 
Pretty spot on I think. Honestly can't remember the last time an MCU movie pulled me on an emotional level. Might've been Winter Soldier. I just watched Logan tonight and that hammered it home for me again. MCU movies lacks heft. They don't punch hard.

That was 3 years ago damn.
So, I'm confused, are the Raimi movies good again? Because I could've sworn the board had decided they'd join X-Men and X2 on the "overrated as fuck" pile not two weeks ago.
It's been majority opnion here for years and years that Spider-Man 1 and 2 are masterpieces. a loud (and wrong) minority dislike the movies for Tobey being a bit of a goober but that's really irrelevant to their strengths as movies.
 
Pretty spot on I think. Honestly can't remember the last time an MCU movie pulled me on an emotional level. Might've been Winter Soldier. I just watched Logan tonight and that hammered it home for me again. MCU movies lacks heft. They don't punch hard.
GotG vol2 punched way harder than Logan imo but to each their own.
 
GotG vol2 punched way harder than Logan imo but to each their own.

Oh wow

Anyways people can list all the plot points and character arcs all they want but at the end of the day most of the mcu movies just don't really seem bothered to really stop and let these characters breathe. And not in some witty back and forth banter way but actually let us get emotionally engaged

There's a night and day difference between how something like Logan or Batman Begins or the Spider-Man movies flow compared to marvel. I definitely prefer the former. But yeah like you said to each their own.
 
Pretty spot on I think. Honestly can't remember the last time an MCU movie pulled me on an emotional level. Might've been Winter Soldier. I just watched Logan tonight and that hammered it home for me again. MCU movies lacks heft. They don't punch hard.

That was 3 years ago damn.

It's due to the nature of MCU movies. Heft requires a different approach because they still want these to be lighthearted and fun with some serious elements. GotG 2 Vol is a really good example of them touching the surface without exploring. This is because they have a certain tone they want to maintain so it's easily consumed by audiences. These movies don't succeed based on how invested the audience is in the characters because the audience is already invested in the Marvel brand, they just need to make a tonally similar movie and the sequel will undoubtedly make more.
 

Glass Rebel

Member
There's plenty of stuff like this in Homecoming, small bits and pieces of dialogue that reveal a lot about the characters and the relationships between them.

Y'all just don't wanna see.
 

LionPride

Banned
I still don't like this world where I'm supposed to relate to some loser fuck who thinks reading poetry to a girl he loves is a good idea. I don't wanna relate to that shit. At all. I'll relate to being broke as fuck and not having an ideal living situation and scraping by to make ends meet most times.

But that shit seems present period across all Spider-Mans

I
 

Logan was a good movie overall but its ending is just depressing. There's no redemption in it. The only message I got is that Logan always has been and always will be kind of a shitbag who occasionally is a reluctant hero, and Laura has the same fate waiting for her. It's very difficult to relate to on a personal level when the moral seems to be life sucks and then you die.
 

LotusHD

Banned
I still don't like this world where I'm supposed to relate to some loser fuck who thinks reading poetry to a girl he loves is a good idea. I don't wanna relate to that shit. At all. I'll relate to being broke as fuck and not having an ideal living situation and scraping by to make ends meet most times.

But that shit seems present period across all Spider-Mans

I

Lol, your post made me think of this:

Wn6Jv7T.gif


But then again, all 3 Spidermans do at least one creepy thing, Raimi's just happens to be the most awkward of the 3 by far.
 

Seesaw15

Member
I still don't like this world where I'm supposed to relate to some loser fuck who thinks reading poetry to a girl he loves is a good idea. I don't wanna relate to that shit. At all. I'll relate to being broke as fuck and not having an ideal living situation and scraping by to make ends meet most times.

But that shit seems present period across all Spider-Mans

I

Day by day he gazed upon her,
Day by day he sighed with passion,
Day by day his heart within him
Grew more hot with love and longing
For the maid with yellow tresses.
But he was too fat and lazy
To bestir himself and woo her.
Yes, too indolent and easy
To pursue her and persuade her;
So he only gazed upon her,
Only sat and sighed with passion
For the maiden of the prairie.

spider-man-2.jpg
 
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