rokkerkory
Member
Lets think about the employees :/
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Supporting abusive work environments - Why I wont be buying Red Dead 2
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
- Start date
Totally agree. But I think the boycott got this conversation pretty far. There's at least a few more people aware now, but becuase of the talk of the boycott, not the act itself. So in a small way it's more than just one drop in the bucket. Every time people talk about it, the industry gets a millimeter closer to changing. That's pretty good. People within the industry need to keep speaking out. Not feel like GAF will minimize their concerns because of *insert worse thing here*
Spring-Loaded
Member
Hari Seldon
Member
Yeah fuck this game, fuck rockstar, I'm out. Good job OP.
Well, no, you'd probably become a vegan.
Are they boycotting work? You can find yourself in situation where it is difficult to switch jobs, regardless of the legality of noncompete clauses. Here are a few: high cost of housing left you without an emergency fund, new child, other dependents in family, whatever.
Better yet, you could want to work there and still have legit complaints about the workplace. It is not as if you choosing to work somewhere means that the workplace has no room for improvement. A Fair Labour Standards Act did not arise from job switching.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Yep. No way I'm rewarding Rockstar for this kind of unethical shit.
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Jaguar Victory
Member
My philosophy is that you have free will to choose where you work and if the employees involved decided that long hours are the cost of getting a AAA studio and game on your resume and feel it worth it then that's fine. If Rockstar was truly insufferable they would never finish their projects or their quality would greatly suffer due to high turnover. It costs more to attract a new employee and get them up to speed than to retain them.
I manage people in a non gaming company and let me tell you this, people get stressed out and they get divorced, etc. That's life. I can barely get people to do their damn job 40 hours a week because they don't show up to work, don't have great work ethic, and can't handle the job. Companies can't put you on blast on a website like "Rick was an asshole that constantly took long breaks, flaked out 3-4 times a month, and he bitched about everything without the ability to apply constructive criticism.
I'm not saying that they are innocent. There very well may be some management issues there. But as a manager of people I take it with a grain of salt. My ex employee blasted me on Facebook last week saying "Someone tell my old boss I still think he's a bitch ass ni**a". One of my current employees let me know so I went and commented "Miss you too". Didn't say a damn thing offensive back to me because they knew they were wrong. They didn't say how many chances I gave them. How they went 100 hours over their unexused time, how their performance was terrible. Sometimes ex employees vent because they can't face their own failures.
I manage people in a non gaming company and let me tell you this, people get stressed out and they get divorced, etc. That's life. I can barely get people to do their damn job 40 hours a week because they don't show up to work, don't have great work ethic, and can't handle the job. Companies can't put you on blast on a website like "Rick was an asshole that constantly took long breaks, flaked out 3-4 times a month, and he bitched about everything without the ability to apply constructive criticism.
I'm not saying that they are innocent. There very well may be some management issues there. But as a manager of people I take it with a grain of salt. My ex employee blasted me on Facebook last week saying "Someone tell my old boss I still think he's a bitch ass ni**a". One of my current employees let me know so I went and commented "Miss you too". Didn't say a damn thing offensive back to me because they knew they were wrong. They didn't say how many chances I gave them. How they went 100 hours over their unexused time, how their performance was terrible. Sometimes ex employees vent because they can't face their own failures.
AmuroChan
Member
It's terrible about these work conditions, but I feel like boycotting the game actually hurts these people even more. From a creative standpoint, nothing brings more joy to the devs than to see as many people as possible play the game that they worked years on. From a business standpoint, if the game doesn't sell well, the first people that get laid off generally isn't management. It's the developers.
Unfortunately there are just too many aspiring game designers for that to happen anyway. I imagine the number of people willing to go through hell just to work at R* is pretty fucking high and all of them would be skipping across that line with a shit eating grin on their faces.
toddhunter
Member
This is very true. I equate this with metacritic userscores. Employees will always vent given a platform and it is generally because they got a bad performance review or missed out on a promotion or an interesting project. Or maybe they are just an alt right kid lashing out at injustice in gaming because rs put a female character on the cover.
Whatever the reason, there is always more to the story. For every person who hates working back because they get the "shit jobs" there are probably five other people going "fuck yeah, let's get this done".
Which isn't to say rs isn't fucked up, they probably are. But this applies to every company everywhere if you look close enough.
I'm sorry, I just don't have sympathy for people who choose to endure such "terrible working conditions". If you're working for Rockstar, you clearly are talented, it shouldn't be hard to find other work. Other studios are always actively looking for talent.
Either the money is fantastic, or they are really passionate about the project -- could be both.
This whole notion of not buying the game is kind of silly to me. They are choosing to be there. Stop fighting the fight for people who don't care. Play the damn game, enjoy and appreciate their hard work.
Either the money is fantastic, or they are really passionate about the project -- could be both.
This whole notion of not buying the game is kind of silly to me. They are choosing to be there. Stop fighting the fight for people who don't care. Play the damn game, enjoy and appreciate their hard work.
ginger ninja
Banned
Name me one industry/business/profession/career/job that is 100% abuse and stress free. You can't do it. This sucks but honestly, the only way this will resolve if the people actually working on this say fuck No and Quit. If they don't, for me it's good enough to assume that the conditions aren't as terrible as they are being told to be.
^What he said. If you are working for fucking rockstar in California, It's a given that you're at least moderately competent and it wouldn't be impossible to find some other opportunity. Glassdoor is making it sound like industry is in recession and these developers have no choice but to endure these terrible conditions.
^What he said. If you are working for fucking rockstar in California, It's a given that you're at least moderately competent and it wouldn't be impossible to find some other opportunity. Glassdoor is making it sound like industry is in recession and these developers have no choice but to endure these terrible conditions.
I agree. It's good that this thread was made, even though we have posters in here trying to act like it's not a problem.
To those who really think it's not a problem, it's not just the game industry, either. As some are mentioning, worse things do happen in other industries or in other parts of the world, and those are problems too. It's good to talk about all of these problems, and work on how to solve them. There's no need to compare who has it worse. Ultimately, we're really all in this together.
Yeah, and I assume that's the major reason serious unionization efforts haven't started in the game industry yet.
This isn't necessarily true in the games industry or with US jobs in general. You don't have free will if there's only a few game studios that need your type of expertise in the area, and you need the healthcare and benefits from the job for your family. Or do you expect everyone to pick up and move every time for a new job if they don't like the level of crunch?
It's different when you're working long hours on your own personal game or small business, cause you know the end rewards are yours. If you are toiling away on a AAA game with 400 other people, then you know if you don't finish it up, your name will get taken out of the credits, you'll get laid off at the end of the project, or you won't see any shipping bonuses and vacation time from those years of work. So people tough it out, and don't complain outwardly. (Also they sign NDAs, so they can't even say anything about it outside of work if they felt like it)
ShironRedshift
Member
That's kind of wholly irrelevant though. That could all be true, and the working conditions could nonetheless still be terrible and we should fight for better. Even if employees are willing to put up with it, that doesn't make it right. Using that logic, the workers' rights movement would have never happened to begin with. How many people are willing to put up with those kind of conditions and suck them up has absolutely nothing to do with whether they're terrible or not and whether or not the situation should be improved.
And who says they don't care? Just because you work at such a company doesn't mean you're alright with those conditions or wish they weren't improved. There are any number of reasons a person might choose to stick with it no matter how bad the conditions are. That's absolutely no reason to keep things the same or not fight to improve them. You could justify some rather heinous shit using that logic, assuming that they deserve it or don't mind simply because they don't just walk away. Whether they do or don't, work conditions like that aren't alright and we should strive to improve them regardless.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
This is why I try to buy these $60 games when they go on sale.
LegitMcfalls
Member
I think what both sides can agree on is that game devs working at a studio or anyone working in any profession should know their state/province/federal employment laws. You have rights as a employee and as far as I know video game studios are not exempt from employment standard laws.
Everybody should have their employment standards bookmarked on their phones and dont be afraid to ask if something doesnt seem right.
Everybody should have their employment standards bookmarked on their phones and dont be afraid to ask if something doesnt seem right.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
It's kinda weird. I don't support this behavior at all, but I doubt those that works that hard on something would want people to not experience that hard work.
This seems like a war to be fought by the employees more than the consumer.
Thanks for bringing awareness OP. I'm really saddened.
Also, not that I blame the employees for how they're treated, but if your job is uncompromising and dispassionate towards your marriage, then it's worth leaving and working at a grocery store to find new work. There has to be some disfunction going on in the relationship with misplaced priorities. Sure, leaving is never easy, but a temporarily broke marriage is better than a broken one.
This seems like a war to be fought by the employees more than the consumer.
Thanks for bringing awareness OP. I'm really saddened.
Also, not that I blame the employees for how they're treated, but if your job is uncompromising and dispassionate towards your marriage, then it's worth leaving and working at a grocery store to find new work. There has to be some disfunction going on in the relationship with misplaced priorities. Sure, leaving is never easy, but a temporarily broke marriage is better than a broken one.
If its for a better and healthier enviromnent for the workers
I dont want that my hobbie make other People sick in body and mind, and create familiy problems etc
You are looking only in expenses not the profit, the Company profit i'm certain is huge, why they dont make less money of exploring the workers and improve the life of the employee?
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
The gaming industry is the easiest workforce to take advantage of and it's a shame. People with tremendous passion for the industry have that passion used against them. It's the industry's fault for putting up with it but it's also difficult to climb out of this rut. Here's hoping a bunch of talented developers can build better employers.
Absolute shame. Rockstar is why I didn't buy GTAV. Rockstar is a chump company that hasn't pushed the industry forward, anyway, since GTA III. Boring, shallow games with loads of the same thing to do and no direction.
Absolute shame. Rockstar is why I didn't buy GTAV. Rockstar is a chump company that hasn't pushed the industry forward, anyway, since GTA III. Boring, shallow games with loads of the same thing to do and no direction.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
This is a great point
Everyone will say "I'm with the Devs!" until their favorite games cost 100 dollars and take an extra year to come out
This reminds me of the metaphor used to talk about profssson sports:
"Nobody wants to know how the sausage gets made, they just wanna enjoy the product."
KingdomHeartsFan
Member
Wow I had no idea things were this bad at R*.
Are you sure you don't have that backwards? Buying deeply discounted or used games makes for even riskier conditions for game development and fewer studios able to make a reliable profit and compete for talent. There are a lot of factors at work here so I certainly don't mean to suggest that this is the only issue, but it's one of them.
Flipping to conspiracy mode for a moment: is it a coincidence that marketing is ramping up for a competing western themed AAA game at the same time there's a spotlight on working conditions at Rockstar? Sure, it could be. It could also be one large employer with dubious working conditions trying to manipulate consumer sentiment st the expense of another.
Yes and yes.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
How do you even correct this as a consumer?
R* generally doesn't make stuff I wanna buy. But, if I suppose they did and I wanted to do something about this, I'd refrain from buying right? Thing is if a sizable chunk of fans didn't buy their next game outta these concerns, wouldn't management just react by laying off/firing and downsizing staff?
R* generally doesn't make stuff I wanna buy. But, if I suppose they did and I wanted to do something about this, I'd refrain from buying right? Thing is if a sizable chunk of fans didn't buy their next game outta these concerns, wouldn't management just react by laying off/firing and downsizing staff?
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Edit- Double post sorry.
If the extra cost is genuinely going towards better employee conditions and not just fattening upper management pockets then absolutely. I'll gladly take the delays too.
If the extra cost is genuinely going towards better employee conditions and not just fattening upper management pockets then absolutely. I'll gladly take the delays too.
itzknickknac
Member
Wow, great points from both sides of the argument.
"In a gentle way, you can shake the world."
- Gandhi
I appreciate your cause and I support it. You've definitely raised my awareness on the issue and no doubt many others reading this thread. I was already on the "will not buy" side anyway because (1)I still haven't played the first one and (2)my backlog won't let me.
"In a gentle way, you can shake the world."
- Gandhi
NinjaBoiX
Member
"I'm refusing to buy this game because the people who made it don't have the backbone and self respect to stand up to bullshit working practices."
I'm sorry OP, it's a very noble stance you have but these people work there by choice, I struggle to have a great deal of sympathy to be honest.
I'm sorry OP, it's a very noble stance you have but these people work there by choice, I struggle to have a great deal of sympathy to be honest.
Would GTA V really suffer from having less random shit to do? Does there really need to be tennis, yoga, stock trading, therapy sessions, web browsing, dog training, etc? I'm pretty sure the primary appeal of GTA for 90% of players is doing goofy crime shit, not stuff you could do in real life. And the thing about developing software is that even minor additions usually require hours of implementation and QA.
For sure. I'm one of those dudes that majored in CS to make games. Lost all interest in getting into game dev as soon as I heard about the work conditions. I can't say I have great passion for developing enterprise software, but I'm in good health, good spirits, and I actually have time to play games, which ironically a lot of game developers just don't.
But I definitely knew other CS dudes that practically romanticized the idea of crunching all night every night and working overtime. Hopefully they fully understood what they were getting into.
For sure. I'm one of those dudes that majored in CS to make games. Lost all interest in getting into game dev as soon as I heard about the work conditions. I can't say I have great passion for developing enterprise software, but I'm in good health, good spirits, and I actually have time to play games, which ironically a lot of game developers just don't.
But I definitely knew other CS dudes that practically romanticized the idea of crunching all night every night and working overtime. Hopefully they fully understood what they were getting into.
Kawika
Member
Whats the average salary for a RS dev in SD? I know the Los Angeles average is ~$78K. The cost of living here in CA is very high. Median house price in San Diego is ~$500K. I suppose if you make near the LA average you can afford a home (and never see it). But why do that when you can easily earn $20K more and not deal with AAA crunch or constant OT crap.
All I can say is the day I decided to not take the job offer in Santa Monica keeping me out of the games business might have been the best choice of my life. I hear horror stories of work life balance and I can't help but smile as I walk in the door before 5pm and have all that time to spend with my family.
California has so many other jobs that match the skill set of game devs and coders I can't imagine why anyone would want to make games in that environment.
Any game devs reading this actually have time to watch your kids grow or enjoy the hobby you loved enough to work in the industry?
Side Related topic: For what its worth, I actually look at how long to beat before I even look at a review. If a game is longer than 30 hours I really have to be excited for it. I still would pay $60 for a shorter game. I might even be happier about it too. I don't want to have a back log of any games. I would rather fill the gaps with multiplayer, indies or other interests. Just losing 10-20% of the game's fluff could allow for a better work/life balance for the whole industry. I get it, publishers don't want you to trade your games but games really should be more respectful of their audience's time.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I would suspect industries outside of gaming to pay their employees more or do more. You can go be a programmer somewhere in the Midwest and make six figures with free healthcare. You could run IT as a Director and basically sit on your butt all day telling other people what to do. I think that's just because they're turning a profit on something that isn't entertainment.
I would expect founding members and key innovators to be making top dollar. It sounds like there needs to be a better business structure put in place that doesn't tamper with creative people.
It sounds like a building filled with artist, living in separate studio apartments, and the only thing paid for them is their rent. They basically slave over their work and they have to manage their needs when they can find the time. And if your art doesn't sell then you're forced to leave and no really cares how famous you once were.
I live in the Midwest and here we have 1 or 2 studios, but they are small mobile developers and I am not into that at all (but I enjoy mobile games). SkyView I believe is their name. I don't really get excited hearing about them, but they exist. I wouldn't expect them to have the same coverage as say my work does for the employees who are up the chain.
It's sad, but I wish developers and dev teams made more or got better benefits. The world just has a ton of profitable fields and entertainment seems to have its limitations. I'm fascinated by those who work on video games. I just realize where the world puts all its money throughout the work week.
I would expect founding members and key innovators to be making top dollar. It sounds like there needs to be a better business structure put in place that doesn't tamper with creative people.
It sounds like a building filled with artist, living in separate studio apartments, and the only thing paid for them is their rent. They basically slave over their work and they have to manage their needs when they can find the time. And if your art doesn't sell then you're forced to leave and no really cares how famous you once were.
I live in the Midwest and here we have 1 or 2 studios, but they are small mobile developers and I am not into that at all (but I enjoy mobile games). SkyView I believe is their name. I don't really get excited hearing about them, but they exist. I wouldn't expect them to have the same coverage as say my work does for the employees who are up the chain.
It's sad, but I wish developers and dev teams made more or got better benefits. The world just has a ton of profitable fields and entertainment seems to have its limitations. I'm fascinated by those who work on video games. I just realize where the world puts all its money throughout the work week.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
Gonna be honest, this makes me want the game more, imagine willingly working in such conditions, the passion and sweat and REAL blood poured into this game is bound to be felt. In fact, I think the people boycotting the game are doing more harm to them. You're sitting on these dudes hard work. Fuck, they already slaving, may as well enjoy what they put out.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
How in the fuck are you going to play video games and boycott a game over abusive work environments? At this point, you might as well boycott the entire industry. Yoshinori Ono blacked out due to exhaustion from his hours. This man was literally killing himself and when he got from the ER they told him to back in IMMEDIATELY. Video games are so famous for crunch, and some developers (mostly japanese) are known for staying away from home for days if not weeks sleeping in their office cubicles but it was Red Dead that forced you to draw the line? It's not that you have a problem with the abusive work ethics, but it's definitely a problem but you might as well boycott the rest of the industry, fam. You're in the wrong hobby.
pretty done
Member
eh, I've already supported them by buying RDR1. Another $60 won't hurt.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
It's a video game. There is no ethical spending under capitalism. Support what you want, doesn't matter because ultimately you'll be supporting something awful. You're either typing on a smartphone or a computer which likely is made from material gathered via exploitation. What do you expect people to do? Live in the forest and poop in the woods?
But nah, this means we'll betray you in a war? What?
Cyborg
Member
It's a video game. There is no ethical spending under capitalism. Support what you want, doesn't matter because ultimately you'll be supporting something awful. You're either typing on a smartphone or a computer which likely is made from material gathered via exploitation. What do you expect people to do? Live in the forest and poop in the woods?
But nah, this means we'll betray you in a war? What?
Supporting R* actions and trying to justify it only proves my point. I dont blame you that you dont see it.
No one should be defending these kind inhumane actions.
Im not saying dont buy their games but stop sweet talking this.
Cow Mengde
Banned
I'm not a fan of Rockstar's games, so I had no interest in buying Red Dead 2 to begin with, but I'm glad OP brought up the unethical shit that this company does behind the scenes.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
It's absolutely not defensible. But again, this is par for the course for the industry. That doesn't make it good, but if it bothers you so much why are you in this hobby? Jonathon Blow stayed his desk and peed into battles in order to make his deadline for The Witness. What hobby do you think you're supporting dude?
I never said those kind of conditions are okay, I'm simply saying if the company isn't doing anything to make it better, then it's entirely on you at that point. We can sit here and complain and maybe a few copies less will sell, but this has clearly been a problem for a very long time, nothing is changing.
You're right though, there could be a ton of reasons as to why they don't leave. With that said, these games are in development for 4-6 years, plenty of time to find a job, save money and make a change.
Speaking on workers rights and working conditions needs context, I'm speaking specifically about rockstar -- where the pay is good enough, and the market is big enough for these guys to have real options, and they do.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
So, do we think R* is the only company doing this, can probably count on 1 hand the development environments that don't resemble crunch time like R*'s. Wasn't Sakurai hospitalized during the smash production? I don't think these developers are doing it for the money, I don't compare this to something like coal mining.
Ovek
7Member7
Rockstar sounds like the kind of company that will fuck you for 4 years developing their next AAA "masterpiece", then fire you on the day it goes gold and take your name out of the credits.
EA were notorious for it all back in the day, I do believe they have got better at the whole work/life balance thing but come on its EA I'm sure they cracked the whip at Bioware for over a year to get MA:A out the door.
EA were notorious for it all back in the day, I do believe they have got better at the whole work/life balance thing but come on its EA I'm sure they cracked the whip at Bioware for over a year to get MA:A out the door.