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Touch Arcade vs. NeoGAF

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
No, I wouldn't fund the game because it looks uninteresting to me and unoriginal (unless you count for the iOS platform). As a game concept it just looks TO ME (note: my opinion, please don't get butthurt GAF) like something that has been done time and time again, whether it be Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell, etc. I don't see why everyone seems to be so pissy about me personally not liking the game. Are you guys Ryan Payton? Did you work on it? Then who the fuck really cares?

To answer your other question, I wouldn't play it even if it were to become a GOTY-contender. Which I REALLY don't see any Kickstarter projects doing anytime soon.

I'm personally not pissy about any of this - i'm just curious about it all. Do you actively not cover games that don't interest you on your site? I use the site every couple of days and i wasn't under the impression of any "quality filtering" in place (that's not meant as a dig, just an observation on content)
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
And since someone linked to that page, what's this about?
Coal said:
Maybe you'll feel differently after you donate some substantial amount to a Kickstarter (you know, more than 20 bucks) and still not have the goal be reached.
Ok, so assume that happens... And? The goal isn't reached, the money isn't taken, and one's opinion will change because..?

I pledged $65 on Wasteland 2 for the boxed copy + shipping. I'd still pledge on Shadowrun Returns even if Wasteland 2 hadn't made its goal. Why wouldn't I? Hell, even if Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns and FTL, all I've so far pledged for, suck, the next time I find a different project I really want to see happen (and maybe also feel I'm getting a good deal with the rewards if it pans out), I'll pledge, assuming I feel the developers will actually try and also appear to have the potential to achieve the goal, like I feel for these three (for the record, I also think Republique's developers have shown the required traits, I'm just not sure I'll like their vision), even if they fail. Just as I didn't stop buying games because Deus Ex: Invisible War sucked despite raving reviews.

Other people give what, 10k, because they like the bonuses, really want to help, and they can afford it, who am I to judge anyone over how they spend their money? I just assume that it's a calculated risk they wanted to take fully aware of what Kickstarter is and fully aware things may not end up as good as they hope for, rather than assume they got suckered into it (like you seem to do when you say that Kickstarters potential for "hustling" is hard for people to grasp). 10k could be pennies to them, and if they wanted something more than the rewards in return, they'd buy stock of some company instead.

They probably do, with a lot more money than 10k.

It seems to me you still don't know much about Kickstarter and thought that if the goal isn't reached the pledgers' money is lost, otherwise I have no idea why you'd think anyone's opinion on the matter would change after they pledged a decent sum and the goal wasn't reached. Republique doesn't seem like it will make it but there are in fact hundreds of backers pledging $100 or whatever, there's also a backer for $7,500, why would their opinion change if the goal isn't reached? They'll most likely just go :/ for a moment and then move on and still pledge or not pledge on a case by case basis just as with everything else.

Shit there have been Diablo III (and other) pre-orders for years, but I wasn't running around calling anyone who may wanna jump on them mad because the game *gasp* might suck, like it actually might since development is complex and nothing is certain. That's not exactly much different, other than the fact that, of course, Blizzard would probably finish it even if nobody preordered. Although shit happens and it could have been cancelled too, and then of course amazon or whatever wouldn't take your money.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
This guy really is a flaming asshole.

I'll stick with Slidetoplay from now on and ignore Toucharcade. Aside from this attitude, their coverage often focuses on pretty awful games that, even at 99 cents, really don't deserve attention.

It's as if he only ever played iOS games and is completely oblivious to everything else.

Doing what exactly? Didn't he bail on 343 because he wasn't handed the keys to the city?
The point is simply that he has worked on some pretty big games and helped ship MGS4. He also has an actual working prototype of Republique up and running, unlike most Kickstarters which begin with a dream and some big names. Ryan doesn't have the clout of some of those creators but his team has at least delivered something before asking for money.
 

Azriell

Member
I've been interested in a number of Kickstarter projects, but haven't pledged anything to anything thus far, because I'm not sure how I feel about paying for something without knowing if its actually good or not (I rarely preorder for the same reason).

After reading this bullshit in OP, I'm making my first Kickstarter pledge out of spite for this mother fucker.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I've been interested in a number of Kickstarter projects, but haven't pledged anything to anything thus far, because I'm not sure how I feel about paying for something without knowing if its actually good or not (I rarely preorder for the same reason).

After reading this bullshit in OP, I'm making my first Kickstarter pledge out of spite for this mother fucker.

High five!
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
And lol @ hodapp in that linked thread trying to justify his attitude by smugly telling people it's now a PC game (carefully excluding that it's also still, and first, on iOS) and how iOS backers got screwed over because the concept (like he valued it) is compromised, like they aren't auto notified of any such changes and also can't just cancel the pledge if they feel the same (or for any reason). Man, I haven't read such discussions since the Kotaku comments. I could almost respect him if he had an opinion and stuck with it but he doesn't even have faith in his own bullshit as he lies and misinforms in an attempt to justify it. And yet you have people agreeing with that, or saying there's no problem, or whatever. I don't know what to think of them. Probably just trolls. Hopefully.
 

Chinner

Banned
And lol @ hodapp in that linked thread trying to justify his attitude by telling people it's now a PC game (carefully excluding that it's also still on iOS) and implying iOS backers got screwed over, like they can't just cancel the pledge if they feel the project is compromised just because a few ports were added. Man, I haven't read discussions like that since the Kotaku comments sections.

also lol worthy considering TA covers ports without any problem.
 
Also it only takes 5 seconds to go to the Kckstarter page and see the listed rewards state the iOS game is expected to be delivered in June while the PC will be 3 months later in September.

A quick look at the Kick starter page would educate quite a few people who seem to be up in arms about the situation and lead to them coming off as less crazy.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
Railing against Kickstarter is bizarre, because it's use is addressing a big problem in the industry which is the disappearance of the mid-tier of gaming. With the industry increasingly polarised, and set to become even more so when we shift into the next generation, it is a way of getting things off the ground and proving demand which would be hard, even impossible, otherwise. Comparing the hurdles and the work involved to a lemonade stand is really disingenuous.

Should these projects succeed and do well that can only be healthy for games that fall between the cheaply developed games at the low-end, and the hugely expensive blockbuster mentality at the top-end.

It's also incredibly short-sighted of an iOS-focussed site to not encourage more ambitious games, as when a platform grows and matures so must its content evolve to get the most from that and open up an audience for it. Otherwise you are squandering the benefits of a very large and easy to develop for platform.

Basically, this seems to be picking a fight for the sake of it and not in the best interest of anyone concerned.
 

BSTF

this post rates 1/10
Maybe I'm jumping to the wrong conclusions here, but Ryan Peyton and others left their jobs to make Republique. Why do they need 500k all of a sudden? Because they saw how loose some people were with their cash trying to be generous and help out the "indie" scene? Is the game canceled if it doesn't reach the 500k? How are they developing the PC/Mac version for free?

Camouflaj seems to have already failed in pitching a game people want. Not a shock when the developer has never released a product, never proven they can make good games. Here's an idea, make a single A game cheaply, and prove that you can actually make a good game. Then take your profits and make the game you actually want. That seems to be Touch Arcade's point, and it seems like a pretty valid one.

How badly would the game be doing if Peyton didn't have all the connections he did, having people hype a game they probably wouldn't care about if he wasn't connected?

"Ultimately this is not a tale about Republique, or Touch Arcade's policies, or Kickstarter" yes it is. That's exactly why you linked to the Kickstarter in your first paragraph. Or showed the graph trying to show that Touch Arcade's "plot" backfiring trying to start a backlash revolution. You Ignis Fatuus crapped up the Republique thread with your whining about Hodapp. Not satisfied about getting enough publicity, you had to crap up the front page with your internet drama all in a desperate attempt to get Republique funded.
 
Hopefully industry folk will be less inclined to work with the guy, but apparently TouchArcade is pretty popular.
It's sad that Twitter exposes you to so many assholes. His responses to feedback and criticism are quite unprofessional.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Wow, this is really too bad. TouchArcade is pretty much the #1 most exhaustive resource for iOS gaming and I used it a lot up until now.

As I read the thread, two things popped into mind;
RE: Kickstarter "giving away money is a bad idea because if you waited, you'd earn interest on this money!!!"--$5 in a high-yield investment vehicle (6%) for 6 months is $5.15. Personally the highest yield instrument I have that I can readily pull money out of is a 2% savings account, so $5.05 after 6 months. If you're not a pan-handler, you probably make enough money so that spending 2 minutes to write a post about 5-15 cents interest costs you more in money-value of your time than the actual money the lost interest costs. I'd also assert that most people are quite unlikely to scrutinize their sub-$1 purchases in general.

RE: "GAF hates casuals". I don't think it's entirely a fair statement, in that it generalizes a lot of diverse opinions on GAF into a homogenous position. But there are certainly people and groups of people on GAF who are very dismissive of iOS gaming. Even in this thread, you have at least one poster saying "iOS Gaming = Angry Birds". There are no people (or very few) who enter PS3 threads to announce "I don't have a PS3, I don't want a PS3, PS3 sucks, port this game to a real system"--but we still see variants of this in iOS game announcements, even when there's nothing about the game design as announced that would cause people to think this, just the intended platform.

I think things have changed slowly but surely over the last 3 years, but there's still a lot of skepticism. I guess the point I'd basically make is that iOS gaming has a number of deficiencies, but also and more importantly a number of strengths. It's fairly easy, thanks to sites like TouchArcade, to get a sense on whether a given game has control-related issues or if it controls fairly smoothly. But all the best games on iOS involve genres that are either unexplored or poorly explored elsewhere. I highly recommend giving things a chance and taking a little risk. I recommend that on consoles as well, of course, and no one listens to me there either. I hope that a few years from now, we will have made more progress on this.

--

It's really too bad that things got ugly and personally insulting. I don't think anyone wins with that kind of behaviour. I see a number of people in this thread, including me, tend to see insults like that as a kind of ultimatum.
 

Derrick01

Banned
I'm not sure if a guy who runs an ios place and is obviously a fanboy should be ranting about others not buying games. Plus the two big pc kickstarters there were (schafer's and wasteland 2) got millions in funding and this game's funding was dead in the water until they announced a PC version. Hell I even chipped in after that announcement and this guy's childish tantrum.

Besides anyone who knows us knows we buy an amazing amount of games. We just never play them.
 
This just shows the level of degradation and complete disassociation people have with reality on Twitter. Besides that, this guy sounds like the biggest elite-asshole in gaming.
 

El Sloth

Banned
Personally, I see no reason to kickstart a game when I can also just buy it when it comes out. The only way this will change is if there is a particular project that I have a high degree of both trust and interest in.

I kickstarted the idle thumbs podcast but that was because 1) I'd already gotten oodles of value out of it and 2) there is basically no way for it to "fail".
I'm sure the insane rewards helped. The game, EP, art, etc. could have all been Kickstarter projects on their own.

I remember them mentioning on one of their progresscasts that if it had only made their original goal they would have only just broken even on all the rewards.
 

C4Lukins

Junior Member
This guy is a bit of a cunt. I would elaborate, but that would require me inhabiting a virtual more cuntey me. I am not in the mood for that.
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
I'm not much into any iOS stuff, so I don't know much about this TA owner. What are the chances that if Republique is fully funded he'll turn around and be like, "Aha! I was actually trying to help it out by giving it this free press!"
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
It's always weird that when people are called out on being jerks, instead of realizing or showing some kind of remorse, they lash out as even bigger cunts. It doesn't make sense at all. People can't be that stupid.

Yes they can. When someone is an asshole they won't stop just because they are caught being an asshole. Take the Avenger controller controversy and how that guy was continuing to be a raving douchebag even a couple months ago. Arrogance simply won't allow an asshole to cease being one. If anything when busted for being one they become a larger one. The touch arcade guy is a prime example of this.
 

Enco

Member
TA is pretty amazing and by far the best online news source for iOS. I visit it pretty much daily.

Unless if a better alternative comes along, I'll stick with it. The dude is being a bit of an ass but I'll live.
 

Jackben

bitch I'm taking calls.
You Ignis Fatuus crapped up the Republique thread with your whining about Hodapp. Not satisfied about getting enough publicity, you had to crap up the front page with your internet drama all in a desperate attempt to get Republique funded.
Wow.
 

C4Lukins

Junior Member
TA is pretty amazing and by far the best online news source for iOS. I visit it pretty much daily.

Unless if a better alternative comes along, I'll stick with it. The dude is being a bit of an ass but I'll live.

Yeah if someone pisses in my mouth I just take it, because it is the best piss from the best pisser.
 
This guy is acting like an idiot, but everything he is saying is correct - imo.


I'm so fucking sick of kickstarter that the only kickstarter i would donate money to would be a kickstarter to shut down kickstarter.
 
I don't have an iOS device anymore, so I haven't been to Touch Arcade in a while and missed all this controversy, but for those of you looking for an alternative site I've really been enjoying http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/ since I put CM9 on my Touchpad and got the PS Vita. They pretty much cover the portable device spectrum. I like the conversational tone of their articles and reviews.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
This Touch Arcade guy comes off as pretty rude, but I actually don't disagree with anything that he's saying.
That's ok, as long as you don't lie out of your ass to make a silly point. Thankfully nobody forces you to back anything on Kickstarter if you don't want to either, and you can move on without judging others who happen to disagree and/or have backed projects and without accusing others as likely to run off with people's money or unlikely to manage and offer what they claim etc.

Nobody tried to force TA or this particular guy to support anything, people are just pointing out his lies and ignorance.

This guy is acting like an idiot, but everything he is saying is correct - imo.


I'm so fucking sick of kickstarter that the only kickstarter i would donate money to would be a kickstarter to shut down kickstarter.
How do you grow sick of something that violates noone's rights and nobody forces you to partake in? Just scroll past, man.

And no, not everything he's saying is correct, again, a lot of it is lies and misinformation to support a clearly misguided opinion.
 
What's weird to me is the hate for Kickstarter. I honestly don't understand it. As a finance/business type and game enthusiast, it's actually pretty exciting!
 

Zeliard

Member
What's weird to me is the hate for Kickstarter. I honestly don't understand it. As a finance/business type and game enthusiast, it's actually pretty exciting!

I don't even feel like I live on the same planet with people like that. They are strange creatures, and their arguments (if they can even be called such) against Kickstarter are uniformly terrible.
 

Corto

Member
No, I wouldn't fund the game because it looks uninteresting to me and unoriginal (unless you count for the iOS platform). As a game concept it just looks TO ME (note: my opinion, please don't get butthurt GAF) like something that has been done time and time again, whether it be Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell, etc. I don't see why everyone seems to be so pissy about me personally not liking the game. Are you guys Ryan Payton? Did you work on it? Then who the fuck really cares?

To answer your other question, I wouldn't play it even if it were to become a GOTY-contender. Which I REALLY don't see any Kickstarter projects doing anytime soon.

This game from what was hinted has an emphasis on non-combat stealth progression. The character Hope negotiates the different scenarios while the player interacts with environmental objects with the touch interface (doors, surveillance cameras, alarms) so that she can overcome those. That seems different enough from MGS and SC. You can dislike the game concept and the stealth mechanism, it's your prerogative. As is anyone else's to be excited by the game and wanting to pay in advance to make it the best game possible through that monetary advancement.
 
I don't have an iOS device anymore, so I haven't been to Touch Arcade in a while and missed all this controversy, but for those of you looking for an alternative site I've really been enjoying http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/ since I put CM9 on my Touchpad and got the PS Vita. They pretty much cover the portable device spectrum. I like the conversational tone of their articles and reviews.

Thanks! Are there any other sites out there? Sadly TA is the most comprehensive one out there. Maybe someone should use Kickstarter to make a TouchArcade competitor?
 

GQman2121

Banned
What's weird to me is the hate for Kickstarter. I honestly don't understand it. As a finance/business type and game enthusiast, it's actually pretty exciting!

Yeah, I just don't understand it at all. And I don't think people that are against KS know why they're against KS other than because it's something new to hate on. Ignorance is bliss I suppose?

This entire situation reeks of people on the internet acting like bully's just because they can. The EIC of that iOS site should be above shit like this. I mean, that last image from Twitter in the OP is pretty telling about where his mind is.
 

Corto

Member
Another ISheep guy...

It's not that easy. Some of us are really enthusiasts of the iOS platform. The iOS thread here on GAF is gigantic and is filled with people that love the devices and the breadth of gaming software that it has. This is just an offensive guy in a position of importance that exponentiates the damage he can do.
 
Wow! I really don't get the 'Millennial generation' barb at all, nor the lemonade stand thing. While I'm sure there are projects that are that basic and infantile, this one most definitely is not.

The kickstarter hate is bizarre to me as well. Crowd-funding is a fascinating business development - it completely turns the normal product-customer paradigm on its head.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
This guy is acting like an idiot, but everything he is saying is correct - imo.

I'm so fucking sick of kickstarter that the only kickstarter i would donate money to would be a kickstarter to shut down kickstarter.
Regardless, this is one of the first Kickstarters to actually deliver a playable game before asking for money. Most of those games taking off on KS are delivering nothing more than a promise and some big names. Republique actually exists and has been in active development.
 
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