Orakio Rob
Member
I'll be glad to help, his videos are immensely helpful to me.
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AngryCentaurGaming (ACG) needs your help (youtube problems/demonetazion)
- Thread starter Jamiaro
- Start date
Go ACG!Lord of Ostia
Member
For people talking about how 'Patreon isn't stable' have you ever heard of public radio? Or podcast networks? You know, things that have been operating for years and years funded in large part or almost entirely through a model like Patreon. I mean, the creator/patron model is literally as old as art.
Edit: Not to mention that by this definition, any job with any employer, unless you have some sort of severance package, wouldn't be considered stable. Most employers in the US can fire you without warning, and your job is only as secure as your usefulness to them (or how good your politicking is in the company). Is that really more secure than this?
Edit: Not to mention that by this definition, any job with any employer, unless you have some sort of severance package, wouldn't be considered stable. Most employers in the US can fire you without warning, and your job is only as secure as your usefulness to them (or how good your politicking is in the company). Is that really more secure than this?
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
It would be a real shame if he had to quit, he's my favourite reviewer. I really feel like he's honest and knows his stuff.
xrnzaaas
Member
We'll that's the case with all Patreon's creators, isn't it? You either believe they need financial support or not, you can't expect them to have all of their earnings made public (besides how much someone earns can be relative depending on when you're from). Also like I've said it's not only having to worry about paying for rent, food or clothes when you're self employed and when it's your only/primary source of income. You also have to pay taxes, health insurance and think about retirement investments. Of course this is something you voluntarily sign up for when you quit a normal job, but it doesn't change the fact that you have to plan for the future and not expect to do this until the day you die.
The rise of demonetization is absolutely killing Youtube in terms of gaming content, which is arguably one of its most popular areas of content. Twitch however is on the rise and Youtube gaming is pretty much a failure at this point. It's a surprisingly short sighted approach by Google to what's been happening, and keeps getting worse.
Depends on the kind of content they produce.
I call tell you that as the current system stands, anything pro wrestling (even just talking into a camera ABOUT wrestling) gets flagged as non ad-friendly, and you'll make about 12 bucks per 100k views, so about 1/10th of what it used to make. Doesn't matter how PG your language is. (of course the WWE channel doesn't suffer from this, they make their own ad deals)
More than anything else this new algorithm is going to kill off middle size/small creators, but YouTube never really gave a shit about them in the first place. Unless you're a celeb/TV Show, you don't matter.
FaintDeftone
Junior Member
ACG is really good stuff. He definitely deserves the support. The people in here scoffing at his Patreon do not understand how much time, money and effort it takes to produce stuff like this on a normal basis. If you like what you see, help the guy out. If not, move on.
Admiral Woofington
Member
He's the first guy I go for an opinion on games I'm on the fence about. So I supported it.
I had asked a mod yesterday if I could make the thread, but he never answered and another made the thread. Luckily seems to be fine so far.
I had asked a mod yesterday if I could make the thread, but he never answered and another made the thread. Luckily seems to be fine so far.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
There's been plenty of threads about people starting patreon. This isn't new.
Admiral Woofington
Member
He's not threatening as much as giving a heads up that with the current state of affairs that he can't keep up doing videos with Googles monetization issue on videos. He buys every game he reviews.
This isn't a large YouTube channel who could survive without needing to bring notice to others. He's someone I see plenty of gaf enjoy looking at his reviews and a gafer himself who posts occasionally. Seems worthwhile to help out a fellow gafer and reviewer when the alternative is he cannot afford to keep making videos.
There have been threads on patreon/Kickstarter on games music and video content on both off topic and gaming, you'd be arguing video reviews which take a lot of work don't deserve the help if they need it.
Agreed. I'm strapped right now but if I can give a bit I will. Easily my favorite reviewer, and the hurricane of metaphors Karak does is unlike any other.
I understand the sentiment and think it's a fair question that'll eventually be answered as this becomes a more common occurence but I do want to point out that this is not begging at all, neither is it "threatening" to do anything. He is simply saying that he provides a service (his reviews) that a lot of people enjoy and that he needs money in order to continue to provide said service in the future. ACG is a gaffer that is fairly active on this board and has a bit of a following here. He didn't even create the thread, someone did it for him because that person likes what he is doing, that's why this is a thing. If you do not like patreon's business model that's your perogative, if you do not want to support him or think that he doesn't deserve the money that is your choice.
This thread was my idea and my idea alone. I saw Karaks video and I immediately thought about making a thread about it. No need to diss ACG about it. As I posted in the op, this thread can be shut down if it is not appropriate.
They're kind of hoping YouTube Red does this I would guess.
Can't say I've ever heard of the guy, but yeah, being a YouTuber sucks right now, and I'm sure some channels will stop creating content because the "adpocalypse". I think that's partially why so many channels start streaming more: profits from Twitch subs is not as unpredictable as ad revenue, although sub money alone wouldn't be enough to keep most channels afloat.
Not surprising ACG hasn't come into this thread some of GAF have weird hangups when it comes to Youtubers, hell any Angry Joe thread just seems to bring out some really hateful people. Not replying with reasons why they don't like a specific video or his content just replying to be spiteful of something they don't understand fully, or hide among some strange twisted jealously... on a bloody video game enthusiast forum.
Man, I need to get into the creating porn games field of work.
White males tend to make more money "on average" more then most, cry victim then rally behind a cause with a sprinkle of tribalism towards the ever growing SJW's and political correctness and you got yourself some willing supporters.
Because $30,000 isn't that much, especially when you consider that he's running his own business. It's about more than just paying rent, bills, and putting food on the table. There are more expenses he has to worry about. And even if it was just about that (which again it is not) $30,000/year isn't going to go very far if that's all or most of your income (especially after income taxes). He could likely live a more comfortable life doing something else which would then take time away from making YouTube videos. So you can either support him and keep qhim in the YouTube business or you can stick to your weird morals of how much someone's line of work is truely worth and move on. I doubt Karak would say he needs more money if he doesn't need more money.
Sorry for cutting off most of what you said, just trying to make the post more readable, not edit what you're saying. Let me know if I've misrepresented you. Anyway.
This example doesn't really fit. If Netflix were to change their price, the market would react appropriately. They'd either decide it is worth the extra money, or they wouldn't and revenue would fall. Netflix would then have to work to improve their product to increase the value of their proposition.
The pricing model is different because its essentially a pay-what-you-want model, but the fundamentals are the same. The market has decided the value of the product, so to increase the value you need to improve the proposition, just as netflix would have to make sure their proposition matched the price they wanted to charge.
Instead what is happening, is instead of working hard to improve the proposition (and you don't do that by gating off content) they are pleaing for money from an emotionally engaged fanbase. You can see from the threads in this post how emotionally engaged his fanbase are. And yes I do say plea, because look at this thread title, look at the video title, the video itself. He's asking for help!
Now is it wrong to do it? Hell no! But is it sustainable to ask for assistance to keep you afloat. Noooooo. And that's the problem. These 'pleas' (is that a better word than begging?) aren't going to keep working. And then goodbye ACG and any other of your favourite youtubers who don't do enough to stay relevant in the maturing market.
Yeah I was just thinking that in addition to monetization from youtube would seem like loads. I assumed he'd make minimum $20,000 off youtube, and $50,000 is a good salary for a young guy even with expenses. But I guess that could be wrong.
We'll we are currently in what a lot of YouTubers are referring to as the "adpocalypse," and everyone is seeing a decrease in revenue from their videos. Karak likely was making enough with YouTube and Patreon combined before all of this but now needs help to keep his output the same since his revenue from the YouTube side is going down.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Sounds like Google when it comes to most things on youtube
Lord of Ostia
Member
Your take on this completely ignores the context of the situation in regards to the platform, which is YouTube. This isn't market forces at work, Karak is just as popular as he's ever been, if not more so. The problem is that YouTube has suddenly changed it's algorithm in a way that prevents or reduces monetization on videos. The product he produces is popular, and until recently he was seeing the benefits of that, but because of YouTube's decisions regarding their platform, he is now cut off from the majority of funding from the product he produces. So, now he's using other funding methods. If you consume his product, you can choose whether to pay for it or not.
MrS
Banned
Why do you have to put Colin down to raise ACG up? You don't need to do that. Colin has his fanbase, he's earning and he puts a lot of effort and research in to his videos too. There's no need to disrespect Colin here just because you don't like him. There are enough people who enjoy ACG and Colin for them both to be successful.
They aren't free. Someone else has been paying them for you.
It's interesting. I think what happened is these youtubers grew up during an era that was different. I have a YT channel with a meager following and I've seen some videos get hit, but well after they got a majority of the views and I won every dispute. A GOOGLE said, it's going to take time for the new algorithm to work properly.
I'm also growing up during the current era and find it interesting. For 18 years I survived as a mostly print media, journalist. Running smaller sites making money off ads during a time when most everyone has adblock. Seeing cpms under $1. This year I turned to YT and despite a claim here or there, the returns are way better. $2cpm... Somethings $10 CPM. Way less views, no server bills, making almost as much now with videos getting a few thousand views as I did with a site that got 40,000 views daily.
So my perspective is different, but I'm building out with the current model.
What I also was told is to diversify. Get sponsorship deals and ads that don't go through YT. You see it more and more these days and it's just a minor annoyance. All I know is, if YT use to be even more profitable... I guess I get it. Folks built a business around relying on really high income. I mean that guy has a patreon pulling 5k per month. I could definitely survive and make videos off that.
Change your business models, downsize as needed, and go back to when it was just you and you didn't make 20,000 per month. I mean, tBfs just patreon. He still makes $ off 90% of his videos.
I'm glad I an growing up as a tuber in this current time. I can't get a false sense of security expecting way more money than usual.
I'm also growing up during the current era and find it interesting. For 18 years I survived as a mostly print media, journalist. Running smaller sites making money off ads during a time when most everyone has adblock. Seeing cpms under $1. This year I turned to YT and despite a claim here or there, the returns are way better. $2cpm... Somethings $10 CPM. Way less views, no server bills, making almost as much now with videos getting a few thousand views as I did with a site that got 40,000 views daily.
So my perspective is different, but I'm building out with the current model.
What I also was told is to diversify. Get sponsorship deals and ads that don't go through YT. You see it more and more these days and it's just a minor annoyance. All I know is, if YT use to be even more profitable... I guess I get it. Folks built a business around relying on really high income. I mean that guy has a patreon pulling 5k per month. I could definitely survive and make videos off that.
Change your business models, downsize as needed, and go back to when it was just you and you didn't make 20,000 per month. I mean, tBfs just patreon. He still makes $ off 90% of his videos.
I'm glad I an growing up as a tuber in this current time. I can't get a false sense of security expecting way more money than usual.
Formatting is fine, don't worry.
What you point out is basically the difference between dealing (as a customer) with a faceless corporation versus an individual.
Well, first thing i'd say is that corporations receive an incredible amount of emotional investment too, whether you think that's good or bad it's another thing, but they do (look at any thread on GAF really, people love and are emotionally invested in companies like Sony, Valve, Blizzard, let alone smaller studios themselves like Naughty Dog or FROM Software).
The difference is that on a personal level, you just are more able to be forward and honest.
If you watch the video, ACG isn't trying to guilt people into anything for example, he lays out in a fairly honest way what is going on, and the realities of his situation, and asks people to just CONSIDER checking out the Patreon page, exactly because of the weird stigma/ warped perception i was talking about (some people pull up a "shield" as soon as they hear Patreon/Kickstarter).
The emotional investment will always be there, that's just how humans work, but as long as there is honesty, and there is no manipulation, i don't see a problem with it.
It's not a sin to get attached to people that create things you love (i think we can agree here) and as long as that relationship isn't being exploited with dishonesty, it's actually a good thing i feel (it's great to have a direct line of connection to creators, for one).
Beyond that, i disagree that the value proposition pivots around emotional resonance alone, you can lose subscribers on Patreon too.
You can decide to drop a Patreon because you don't see enough improvements along with the surge of income, or because you get tired of it, or because the value proposition just isn't worth it anymore, and self improvement on that front is still required i think.
I mean this happens all the time on Patreon, and pulling on emotional strings doesn't get you very far, if you're not putting out stuff people want to see.
Look beyond ACG, look at stuff like NoClip or ClothMap, these are incredibly high production values shows being funded on patreon, and with their background in GameSpot and Giant Bomb, neither of them would've been forced to put that much money and work into their project, if emotional manipulation was the currency being traded here.
Finally, on the pleas subject: You make it out to be as if these please are a recurring thing, but this is a special situation, in that it's trying to transition from two business models (Youtube Ad revenue, to Patreon subs) it's not a recurring "Hey it's 2017 and still not enough subs! Pay up guys!" and i think it's, again, mostly related to the idea that a lot of people won't even think about considering the Patreon route, just out of fear for a new model or habit.
Beyond that, the capitalistic rule of the market still applies, and if you offer something not enough people are willing to pay for, you can plea till you're bleeding from your knees, you won't make money.
I think ACG offers a peculiar enough review style, to be able to claim to have something of value to offer, and i think it's from that value that comes the emotional engagement, because people like his reviews/videos, and don't want them to go away.
Admiral Woofington
Member
You know what he meant, he was saying that compared to other youtubers with like a million plus subscribers who can continue off with what their huge fanbase watches compared to the money they make per view, he doesn't have as huge of an audience so if they demonetize him it'll be much more obvious.
I'm a fan of what Karak does on ACG, but what do you mean by 'he buys every game he reviews'? I mean, he reviewed Uncharted 4 DLC, an unreleased game. He gets review code for coverage. Unless you mean he buys himself a copy after the fact or buys games he doesn't get review code of to do review coverage.
Admiral Woofington
Member
He would have to specify, but from what I'm understanding he is saying that every game he reviews he buys with his own money vs using a review code. Not sure if he wants to keep his relationship at a minimum so he doesn't feel he owes anything in the review. But I'm speculating here.
One of the Patreon goals is he will send out his copies to a fan with a raffle for games he reviews since it's his copies he buys
He's a gaffer so if he sees this he can clarify
He buys a copy either way, even if he gets review codes, and then gives it away to patrons.
Just so his money is as much on the line as regular consumers.
Not sure how much that influences other reviewers, but it's a nice gesture.
Okay that makes sense.
Basically, yes. If over 75% of your videos are running no ads (or limited ads, whatever that means) then it doesn't matter how big you are, you're going to feel the loss.
Gunslinger
Member
ACG making 6k a month from patreon. I don't know how much pateron cuts or the cost of living where he lives. But even if pateron take away 2k a month 4k is more than enough for even here in NYC unless you want to rent an apartment in Park Avenue. But good for him. Hes getting paid. I would wager not even 20% of americans make 4k a month. I am happy for him though that he has a good income. Keep it up bro!
GuyKazama
Member
Median income in the US is $50k. I'm hoping he stays at or above that -- he deserves it.
I enjoy Karak reviews a lot and listen to his podcast most weeks, but I get paid less than he does and struggle to even buy as many games as I want with a family to feed and entertain. I'm happy to help out with affiliate links or click on ads, but if his channel were to disappear or was less frequent, I guess I would just find something else to replace it. But I do wish him lots of luck.
One thing that gets discussed a lot here is what salary is 'enough', we had the same discussion with SIFTD, where everybody told Shane to move out of his office and cut down on costs like expensive audio/visual equipment. It's like there's a general consensus on if someone is over or underpaid. Getting paid 'enough' is completely subjective. Considering Youtube is a global factory of content creators, Karak is competing with everyone around the world. Are we saying somebody who lives in China doesn't deserve as much because his living expenses are lower? Also just as an aside, personally I hate the concept of living expenses - so many things these days are imported, if you want anything you are paying the global market price for it. So my point is, it rubs me the wrong way, when I see people say "oh he's not getting paid enough, or he's getting way overpaid."
With all that said, some personal feedback for Karak. I don't really like the whole 'I'm not a channel with thousands of subscribers', because its a pretty decent channel, and many people would kill to have that many subscribers. Anyone that's tried their hand at Youtube knows its a hard gig. Also I think Karak should save himself some money by just playing through the review copy and not worry about buying another copy to give away. I don't think it makes it any more transparent whether you used your own money to buy the game or whether you receive a review copy. That's at least $2000-3000 he could save a year.
One thing that gets discussed a lot here is what salary is 'enough', we had the same discussion with SIFTD, where everybody told Shane to move out of his office and cut down on costs like expensive audio/visual equipment. It's like there's a general consensus on if someone is over or underpaid. Getting paid 'enough' is completely subjective. Considering Youtube is a global factory of content creators, Karak is competing with everyone around the world. Are we saying somebody who lives in China doesn't deserve as much because his living expenses are lower? Also just as an aside, personally I hate the concept of living expenses - so many things these days are imported, if you want anything you are paying the global market price for it. So my point is, it rubs me the wrong way, when I see people say "oh he's not getting paid enough, or he's getting way overpaid."
With all that said, some personal feedback for Karak. I don't really like the whole 'I'm not a channel with thousands of subscribers', because its a pretty decent channel, and many people would kill to have that many subscribers. Anyone that's tried their hand at Youtube knows its a hard gig. Also I think Karak should save himself some money by just playing through the review copy and not worry about buying another copy to give away. I don't think it makes it any more transparent whether you used your own money to buy the game or whether you receive a review copy. That's at least $2000-3000 he could save a year.
SlasherJPC
Banned
Pretty much this, if he is hurting badly to sustain his video work. Buying games when he doesn't have to should be cut completely. Especially with as many games as he reviews. Thats a ton of money.
theonerayman
Member
I would have to imagine the reason that he pays for everything he reviews is to kill ANY thoughts of favoring. Example. For my wrestling Podcast we have the owner of our local NWA promotion on pretty often. Me and my cohost love wrestling and NWA Smoky Mountain is a fantastic promotion so we talk about it even when the owner is on. It's insane how many people reach out to us saying we only talk about NWASM because we get the owner on. And it's just not true, not at all. So if he can do the review after spending his own money, the fact it was "free" can't jade his opinion at all.
I might be way off on this, but I don't think I am.
I might be way off on this, but I don't think I am.