• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

Star Orpheus
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:59 PM)
Star Orpheus's Avatar

Originally Posted by Brock Reiher

Am I missing something when people use their last names to refer to characters? I know it technically comes first in the Japanese version but people usually use the first name to refer to each other anyway yeah? Like nobody calls Josuke 'Higashikata' in Jojo.

In game it's meant to show their not familiar with each other I believe, why I just did it is because I'm lazy and already knew how to spell Saihara.
NotLiquid
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:01 AM)
Then again if they advertised Shuichi as protag from day one everyone would complain that the Kaede twist is literally the same as DR1's first twist except with the love interest actually succeeding in killing someone, meaning that even when you ignore how they trivialize her death/attempted murder later in the game, they literally only did the protag fakeout just so a rehashed twist could feel fresh ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 12:02 AM)

Originally Posted by Star Orpheus

In game it's meant to show their not familiar with each other I believe, why I just did it is because I'm lazy and already knew how to spell Saihara.

Oooh, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
saturnine
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:06 AM)
saturnine's Avatar

Originally Posted by Brock Reiher

I also like that by the time the game is over, you learn that Kokichi was the smartest one and basically the hero. He's just a jackass, but dude thought the world was completely destroyed and still game up with an elaborate plan to get them out of the situation.

Nah, after the shit he pulled in the fourth chapter there's no way he could be considered a hero. He's responsible for Gonta's death, and while Miu was planning on killing him (for some reason), he could have prevented that outcome easily. Worse, his backstory doesn't inform in any way how he could commit two indirect murders in cold blood.

Dude went from unpredictable jackass to straight piece of shit when he did that.
CielTynave
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:09 AM)
CielTynave's Avatar

Originally Posted by saturnine

Nah, after the shit he pulled in the fourth chapter there's no way he could be considered a hero. He's responsible for Gonta's death, and while Miu was planning on killing him (for some reason), he could have prevented that outcome easily. Worse, his backstory doesn't inform in any way how he could commit two indirect murders in cold blood.

Dude went from unpredictable jackass to straight piece of shit when he did that.

Yeah, any attempt to make him seem redeemable after that was wasted.
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 12:12 AM)

Originally Posted by saturnine

Nah, after the shit he pulled in the fourth chapter there's no way he could be considered a hero. He's responsible for Gonta's death, and while Miu was planning on killing him (for some reason), he could have prevented that outcome easily. Worse, his backstory doesn't inform in any way how he could commit two indirect murders in cold blood.

Dude went from unpredictable jackass to straight piece of shit when he did that.

Actually that's a good point. I think the game indicates that maybe he broke a little when he saw that outside world, and that's what caused him to do that? Plus he knew Miu was gonna kill him and we know from the trial that he gets really vindictive when he feels slighted. He definitely saw Gonta as nothing more than a tool though.

I also looooove Korekiyo. I was digging him from the beginning because he's so creepy, and then I couldn't figure out why he would kill two people. And when I found out.... 😍😍😍
Steel
Banned
(10-13-2017, 12:15 AM)

Originally Posted by NotLiquid

Thing is the game kind of builds against doing that in the finale. There are several key moments in later chapters where Shuichi needs to actually apply what Kokichi has been trying to convey for the entirety of the game, in that you shouldn't trust anyone. As much as Kokichi is a liar and a jackass, he's ironically enough the biggest realist. It's why Chapter 4 is partially such an emotional heavy weight because believing Gonta committed the crime is hard. The difference to me though is that there's never really much of a frame of reference for Shuichi and how he chooses to believe people. As a detective he's forced to believe that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and he kind of gets over his lack of assertion by the end of the first chapter.

I just imagine if they knew how to properly write it, there'd be more of an evident arc in how Kaede can maintain her optimism while still realizing she can't just blindly believe everyone. She's established to have a propensity for lying to reach her goals, so I really wonder whether the Kaito/Kokichi rivalry would've been more evident when she's caught in the center of it - especially since Kokichi takes a visible liking to her in both the demo and main game. So there's this whole potential of, while Kaede could stand to learn a thing or two from him, he himself is a dangerous reminder of who she potentially could become if she becomes too embroiled by her own cynicism.

Then again this is the problem with speculating and "what ifs". If she were a protag she'd likely be written way different as it is.

Hell, Kaede herself faced several points where she had to re-examine her trust in others in the first chapter. Which was again Kokichi's fault as he was pointing out how she was being a bit tyrannical by pushing everyone too much. She actually had moments of reflection right at that point.

Not to mention that she didn't stand back and take shit(Which Shu tended to do). She would've been a great protag.
Loz246789
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:41 AM)
Loz246789's Avatar

Originally Posted by Steel

Hell, Kaede herself faced several points where she had to re-examine her trust in others in the first chapter. Which was again Kokichi's fault as he was pointing out how she was being a bit tyrannical by pushing everyone too much. She actually had moments of reflection right at that point.

Not to mention that she didn't stand back and take shit(Which Shu tended to do). She would've been a great protag.

Kaede kind of reminds me of this one moment in chapter 4 of DR2. Just before the murder occurs, Hajime goes a little loopy and tries to get into the final dead room, but is ultimately stopped by Chiaki. Even so though, before he goes to bed he realises that if nothing is done, they're all going to die. I remember wondering if he would have actually done something if no one had intervened, and I think if Kaede was in that scenario, she totally would have. It's an interesting comparison to make.
PK Gaming
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:41 AM)

Originally Posted by NotLiquid

Then again if they advertised Shuichi as protag from day one everyone would complain that the Kaede twist is literally the same as DR1's first twist except with the love interest actually succeeding in killing someone, meaning that even when you ignore how they trivialize her death/attempted murder later in the game, they literally only did the protag fakeout just so a rehashed twist could feel fresh ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Ideally Makiroll would be the first victim and Kaede would be one of the final survivors instead :')

Even more ideal, make her the goddamn protagonist

Sorry, I made too much sense.

Originally Posted by kewlmyc

Kaede died so we could get the best protag in the series. Shuichi got great character development throughout, but part of me does wish that Kaede could have stayed the protag.

I still prefer Hajime, but it's hard to deny that Shuichi wasn't great. Like, it wasn't even just the character the development, but the moments in the story that were thrilling.



My kink is Schuichi explaining why X culprit had to take a course of action when they did.

lol
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 12:47 AM)
I loved that Shuichi actually got everything, the only real limit that caries over the trials is him not wanting to betray his friends or say something stupid. Like there's this point in Chapter 2 where he's really apprehensive about it and explaining everything so he doesn't sound like a lunatic, but then he's like "but yeah I've known it's Kirumi since I found this glove" all of a sudden. He's a smart dude with some problems that get ironed out by Kaito and Kokichi.

Except for in that terrible Chapter 4 where it takes an hour to explain the super easy looping trick that Monotaro basically tells you the answer to outright
LiK
(10-13-2017, 12:49 AM)
LiK's Avatar
These mini games are driving me nuts. Did you guys get S on Vita or PS4?
Viale
Member
(10-13-2017, 12:56 AM)
Viale's Avatar

Originally Posted by Brock Reiher


Except for in that terrible Chapter 4 where it takes an hour to explain the super easy looping trick that Monotaro basically tells you the answer to outright


Lol that was terrible, i couldn't believe it took the cast so long to understand the concept. It was like:

"The world loops"
"Wha? That's not possible
"Its a video game though."
"...wha?"
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 12:58 AM)

Originally Posted by Viale

Lol that was terrible, i couldn't believe it took the cast so long to understand the concept. It was like:

"The world loops"
"Wha? That's not possible
"Its a video game though."
"...wha?"

"But if she was classified as an object and only objects could get through the wall, how did she get through the wall?

*Start the third Taxi of the trial*
Hideki Kamiya
Banned
(10-13-2017, 01:04 AM)

Originally Posted by Brock Reiher

I loved that Shuichi actually got everything, the only real limit that caries over the trials is him not wanting to betray his friends or say something stupid. Like there's this point in Chapter 2 where he's really apprehensive about it and explaining everything so he doesn't sound like a lunatic, but then he's like "but yeah I've known it's Kirumi since I found this glove" all of a sudden. He's a smart dude with some problems that get ironed out by Kaito and Kokichi.

Except for in that terrible Chapter 4 where it takes an hour to explain the super easy looping trick that Monotaro basically tells you the answer to outright

Yeah that was pretty fucking agonizing. It took forever to explain even though it was obvious. That whole chapter was pretty boring imo but it was still amazing once you've realized that Gonta's stupidity was taken advantage of by Kokichi.
YearoftheWooster
Member
(10-13-2017, 01:10 AM)
YearoftheWooster's Avatar

Originally Posted by Brock Reiher

"But if she was classified as an object and only objects could get through the wall, how did she get through the wall?

*Start the third Taxi of the trial*

Holy crap man, the Ch. 4 taxis. I answered "with the current" instead of "against the current" because I knew that the world loops already, so the signpost going "with the current" makes sense. Nope, get punished for thinking ahead. And I was already down to my last heart too, so I had to replay the whole taxi segment again. A good 10 minutes wasted. :(
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 01:15 AM)

Originally Posted by YearoftheWooster

Holy crap man, the Ch. 4 taxis. I answered "with the current" instead of "against the current" because I knew that the world loops already, so the signpost going "with the current" makes sense. Nope, get punished for thinking ahead. And I was already down to my last heart too, so I had to replay the whole taxi segment again. A good 10 minutes wasted. :(

Originally Posted by Hideki Kamiya

Yeah that was pretty fucking agonizing. It took forever to explain even though it was obvious. That whole chapter was pretty boring imo but it was still amazing once you've realized that Gonta's stupidity was taken advantage of by Kokichi.

Yup, it's just terrible. I agree that Gonta's VA alone though salvages everything.


Do I need all the casino prizes for any trophy? They don't count as presents right?
Jeffrey
Member
(10-13-2017, 01:16 AM)
Really the biggest bummer of this game is that the murders for the most part feel dialed back. Wacky characters with some fairly standard mysteries that feel like something from detective conan.

I was kinda bummed that they didn't go all Phoenix wright and start messing with dead people channeling.

Really the only addition to this game is lying... Which is pretty weak. The few times I did it just feels weird, like I'm not convinced lying here would have redirected the flow of the discussion. Just feels clumsy.
Catvoca
Banned
(10-13-2017, 01:17 AM)
Underrated moment for me is when you find out Kokichi's "evil" organisation is really just a bunch of idiots who perform pranks. I cackled when I first realised that.
Steel
Banned
(10-13-2017, 01:18 AM)
I do really hate when the game forces you to answer wrong. I remember in Ch 2 there was a question that basically asked when the murder occurred. One of the options was after night time, there was before night time, or in the morning.

I answered after night time, because, well-duh, but the game was forcing me to answer before, even though later in the trial the characters finally figure out it happened after curfew.
ScherzoPrime
Member
(10-13-2017, 01:52 AM)
ScherzoPrime's Avatar
WRT Ending, I don't really know what I make of it atm. Part of me feel's its self indulgent, but that's not entirely a deal breaker because I love other equally indulgent endings like Spec Ops The Line or BioShock Infinite. I sort of feel though that DRV3's ending is trying to do too much simultaneously for it to properly work. It's about Truth and Lies AND coming to terms with an identity you don't entirely have control over AND how fiction can create meaning AND letting go of Danganronpa before it becomes a soulless vehicle for nihilistic sadism/easy affirmation... it's juggling a lot of balls in the air and I don't think it really does a good job setting up and paying off all of them.

Obviously Truth and Lies, Reality and Fiction are way more central to this game than Hope and Despair, which I don't think thematically interest Kodaka the way it did when he wrote DR2. But I feel as much as it was built up, the pay off and how it's resolved was reeeeally compressed; with most of the resolution about their identities and truth v. lies happening *after* the climax, which is mainly Kodaka screaming 'let this series die' more than resolving the existential crisis the characters are currently faced with.

As for that message itself, I think the charitable reading isn't so much that the previous 'actual' DR games were mere exploitation as it was that if Team DR were to continue making these games out of obligation to the fans, they would become meaningless and therefore cheap sadism and affirmation. I don't think it's a bad message per se, but it feels a bit.. weird for a series that has always reveled in its trashiness is suddenly calling out its fans (even if it's probably tongue in cheek). It's also that an anime that aired earlier this year (RE:Creators) had a somewhat similar premise but articulated the theme that works success depend on the fusion of creators and audience horizons, which to me feels more appealing than trying to convince fans as a creator that something needs to end.

As for the nature of the meta element... I wish they could've leaned a bit more into DR being 'past its prime'. There's elements implied here and there, given the hokey backstory and the fact that the Meta-twist would've had to be written into the show itself. But can you separate Fictional!Team DR being out of ideas from Real!Team DR being out of ideas? Also I found them going "Well, we don't *really* know if DR1/2 actually happened or if those videos of us being awful people before the killing game are true" was a bit cheap of a walk back, but I guess it plays into the themes of Truth and Lies well enough. I just think as important as this must've been for Kodaka to do, to authoritatively put Danganronpa behind him, it doesn't hit the level of sublime that DR2's climax did, which didn't have to resort to meta-fiction to create an extremely meaningful twist that tied into what Hope and Despair really mean.

At the very least this more or less confirms that DR3 The Animation was written with a gun to Kodaka's head.

And nope, I'm not bitter about none of my waifus making it, nope nope nope...


Originally Posted by Viale

Lol that was terrible, i couldn't believe it took the cast so long to understand the concept. It was like:

"The world loops"
"Wha? That's not possible
"Its a video game though."
"...wha?"

Yeah this took waaaaaaay too long to parse out; and they didn't even like 'reveal' it in a satisfying way. I wanted them to show like multiple recursions of Church and Mansion.
NotLiquid
Member
(10-13-2017, 02:07 AM)

Originally Posted by Catvoca

Underrated moment for me is when you find out Kokichi's "evil" organisation is really just a bunch of idiots who perform pranks. I cackled when I first realised that.

I legitimately believed that the reveal was that he was going to be "Ultimate Liar".

The fact that he's a professional prankster though is a bit of a flat reveal after we find out in Chapter 4 that he was complicit in murder. His organization was said to perform "non-violent pranks", but instead he, who is pretty much a genius on finding out when someone is up to some BS, decides to have someone kill the other person, even though there's like dozens of other ways they could've avoided that. Like, he knew Miu's plan from the start and still went ahead with manipulating it, knowing at least one person was going to die.

But nah, it's just a prank bro.

If there are any YouTube Danganronpa memers reading this post, can someone take this video and paste Kokichi's head over Filthy Frank's
ScherzoPrime
Member
(10-13-2017, 02:13 AM)
ScherzoPrime's Avatar

Originally Posted by NotLiquid

I legitimately believed that the reveal was that he was going to be "Ultimate Liar".

The fact that he's a professional prankster though is a bit of a flat reveal after we find out in Chapter 4 that he was complicit in murder. His organization was said to perform "non-violent pranks", but instead he, who is pretty much a genius on finding out when someone is up to some BS, decides to have someone kill the other person, even though there's like dozens of other ways they could've avoided that. Like, he knew Miu's plan from the start and still went ahead with manipulating it, knowing at least one person was going to die.

The implication I got is that it was at least partially beyond his control; he only involved himself in murder after obtaining the Flashback Light that revealed the fate of the outside world, which could've either made him legitimately desire to outwit the Mastermind, or imprinted in him an unconscious desire to outwit the mastermind.
saturnine
Member
(10-13-2017, 02:51 AM)
saturnine's Avatar

Originally Posted by ScherzoPrime

The implication I got is that it was at least partially beyond his control; he only involved himself in murder after obtaining the Flashback Light that revealed the fate of the outside world, which could've either made him legitimately desire to outwit the Mastermind, or imprinted in him an unconscious desire to outwit the mastermind.

That's the crux of the issue with the game's plot though, that bit. Tsumugi says that everything the students did was according to a script. If that's true, then nobody was responsible for their actions. They were literally forced to comply through magitek-hypnosis. For Danganronpa to be a killing game, players need autonomy. Otherwise it's no longer a game — Just a very protracted way of committing several murders.

Maybe she was lying, maybe not. But seeing how she had no issue breaking the rules in the very first trial, I can't help but think that she could be be truthful in saying that.
Jeffrey
Member
(10-13-2017, 02:56 AM)

Originally Posted by saturnine

That's the crux of the issue with the game's plot though, that bit. Tsumugi says that everything the students did was according to a script. If that's true, then nobody was responsible for their actions. They were literally forced to comply through magitek-hypnosis. For Danganronpa to be a killing game, players need autonomy. Otherwise it's no longer a game — Just a very protracted way of committing several murders.

Maybe she was lying, maybe not. But seeing how she had no issue breaking the rules in the very first trial, I can't help but think that she could be be truthful in saying that.

It's all just scripted reality TV lol.


Man I feel like I've gotten every single opinion wrong in those multiple choice sections a few times.

I truly am a fraud.


Don't think you can bring up monopad. It's mostly early on when I'm not familiar with the names lol
Steel
Banned
(10-13-2017, 02:56 AM)

Originally Posted by ScherzoPrime

The implication I got is that it was at least partially beyond his control; he only involved himself in murder after obtaining the Flashback Light that revealed the fate of the outside world, which could've either made him legitimately desire to outwit the Mastermind, or imprinted in him an unconscious desire to outwit the mastermind.

I mean, he reacted to the state of the outside world slightly better than everyone else who were basically thinking of offing themselves. I mean, Kaito handled it better than anyone, on the other hand.

In other news, I almost posted this in an entirely unrelated thread.

Originally Posted by saturnine

That's the crux of the issue with the game's plot though, that bit. Tsumugi says that everything the students did was according to a script. If that's true, then nobody was responsible for their actions. They were literally forced to comply through magitek-hypnosis. For Danganronpa to be a killing game, players need autonomy. Otherwise it's no longer a game — Just a very protracted way of committing several murders.

Maybe she was lying, maybe not. But seeing how she had no issue breaking the rules in the very first trial, I can't help but think that she could be be truthful in saying that.

Tsumugi lied about a lot, so it's hard to tell. I feel part of the "it was all scripted" thing was to maximize their despair for the viewers.
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 02:58 AM)

Originally Posted by saturnine

That's the crux of the issue with the game's plot though, that bit. Tsumugi says that everything the students did was according to a script. If that's true, then nobody was responsible for their actions. They were literally forced to comply through magitek-hypnosis. For Danganronpa to be a killing game, players need autonomy. Otherwise it's no longer a game — Just a very protracted way of committing several murders.

Maybe she was lying, maybe not. But seeing how she had no issue breaking the rules in the very first trial, I can't help but think that she could be be truthful in saying that.

I think the script thing meant they were just heading towards a good "Hope vs Despair" ending and they weren't in trouble of the killing game ending. They control their memories but not necessarily what they'll do next. Otherwise she wouldn't have had to murder Rantaro herself.
Steel
Banned
(10-13-2017, 03:04 AM)

Originally Posted by Brock Reiher

I think the script thing meant they were just heading towards a good "Hope vs Despair" ending and they weren't in trouble of the killing game ending. They control their memories but not necessarily what they'll do next. Otherwise she wouldn't have had to murder Rantaro herself.

Well, if she really didn't want that to come to light she would've disposed of the shotput the same way the bodies got disposed of. Then again, she did go out of her way to make Kaede's plot succeed by making the loud countdown music that covered up the noise the shotput in the vent made.

Tsumugi herself seemed to have had to obey the rules of the game to an extent and probably disobeyed the rules in the first place to have a final "vs Junko" ending like the other 52 games. If anybody had searched the bathroom super thoroughly they could've solved the first murder case.

You know, thinking about it, if the secret route was anywhere other than the girls bathroom, shuichi probably would've found it in the first chapter seeing as he found the bookcase.
NotLiquid
Member
(10-13-2017, 03:08 AM)
To me I read it being a part of the script as just the "personalities" they were given. Maki was "written" to be emotionally distant and cold, but with some mild semblance of heart left in her that someone like Kaito can bring out from her due to his personality being altruistic to a fault; even to someone like her. Presumably the notion is that Team DR can "predict" how the character dynamic will develop based on their pre-determined isms, because a heartwarming love story is something the audience likes. As writers, they're likely able to estimate how many of the characters are going to act in the context of the game. It's established that they can brainwash people's minds but the idea of an almighty "script" that dictates how the story goes has no precedence.

If V3 really played out exactly as per a "script", there doesn't seem to be much reason for Tsumugi to have to go out of her way to kill Rantaro. The only reason that happened was because Monokuma's motive wasn't working, and if Team DR wanted for the show to continue, it seems weird to set it up in a way that allows the characters to convert the entire audience to work against them. And again, you gotta consider the whole prologue, and the fact that it's highly possible that these characters were taken against their will.

Having said that I admit that the level of meta fuckery going on when the words "you're fictional characters/not real/it's all per script" finally sunk in was something really surreal to bear. Were it not for the epilogue, then I think the "it's all in the script" line might have had more weight to it.
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 03:13 AM)
Fuck Treasure Hunter Monolith
ScherzoPrime
Member
(10-13-2017, 03:21 AM)
ScherzoPrime's Avatar

Originally Posted by saturnine

That's the crux of the issue with the game's plot though, that bit. Tsumugi says that everything the students did was according to a script. If that's true, then nobody was responsible for their actions. They were literally forced to comply through magitek-hypnosis. For Danganronpa to be a killing game, players need autonomy. Otherwise it's no longer a game — Just a very protracted way of committing several murders.

Maybe she was lying, maybe not. But seeing how she had no issue breaking the rules in the very first trial, I can't help but think that she could be be truthful in saying that.

Well to me the implication, and I think they could've done a better job making it more explicit, is that for all her expressed fandom of Danganronpa she's actually kind of a terrible showrunner. The backstory is hokey with a shoehorned reference to the 'original series', and the meta-fictional element was a *planned* element of the show itself. Like a friend said she's sort of the definition of a 'bad fan', she wants DR to continue because she superficially like elements of it and wants to it go on forever.

I think in practice in serves two functions; on a surface level in lines up with how 'reality tv' is to a certain extent really all stage managed, with rivalries and betrayals invented out of thing air. But on a more substantial level it sort of has an existentialist element, of a sort; that we can *never* be true that our thoughts and aspirations are authentically our own; we have to live with the uncertainty that our reality is inseparable from the fictions we and everyone else leave. I just wish they'd actually focused on that more during the climax than just going 'Fuck DR, we out'.

Originally Posted by NotLiquid

To me I read it being a part of the script as just the "personalities" they were given. Maki was "written" to be emotionally distant and cold, but with some mild semblance of heart left in her that someone like Kaito can bring out from her due to his personality being altruistic to a fault; even to someone like her. Presumably the notion is that Team DR can "predict" how the character dynamic will develop based on their pre-determined isms, because a heartwarming love story is something the audience likes. As writers, they're likely able to estimate how many of the characters are going to act in the context of the game. It's established that they can brainwash people's minds but the idea of an almighty "script" that dictates how the story goes has no precedence.

If V3 really played out exactly as per a "script", there doesn't seem to be much reason for Tsumugi to have to go out of her way to kill Rantaro. The only reason that happened was because Monokuma's motive wasn't working, and if Team DR wanted for the show to continue, it seems weird to set it up in a way that allows the characters to convert the entire audience to work against them. And again, you gotta consider the whole prologue, and the fact that it's highly possible that these characters were taken against their will.

Having said that I admit that the level of meta fuckery going on when the words "you're fictional characters/not real/it's all per script" finally sunk in was something really surreal to bear. Were it not for the epilogue, then I think the "it's all in the script" line might have had more weight to it.

Like I said, I think Tsumugi is actually pretty bad at this. The planned 'script' of the story included both the 'fuck it, let's go to space' aspect AND the meta-fictional reveal. How Tsumugi could even believe there could be another season after jumping the shark like this is beyond me.

Course, whether you see it as Tsumugi/Fictional!Team DR jumping the shark or Kodaka/Real!Team DR jumping the shark is up to your own discretion.
saturnine
Member
(10-13-2017, 03:31 AM)
saturnine's Avatar

Originally Posted by Steel

You know, thinking about it, if the secret route was anywhere other than the girls bathroom, shuichi probably would've found it in the first chapter seeing as he found the bookcase.

I'm suddenly reminded of a female character. Highly capable and clever, whose whole shtick was cleaning and taking care of people. One who would have had every reason in the world to look into the closet of a bathroom.

Originally Posted by NotLiquid

As writers, they're likely able to estimate how many of the characters are going to act in the context of the game. It's established that they can brainwash people's minds but the idea of an almighty "script" that dictates how the story goes has no precedence.

That's true, but if they had enough influence over the characters personalities, then...

Originally Posted by NotLiquid

If V3 really played out exactly as per a "script", there doesn't seem to be much reason for Tsumugi to have to go out of her way to kill Rantaro. The only reason that happened was because Monokuma's motive wasn't working

Why did they write characters that would cooperate so readily to the point of putting the whole killing game plan in peril from the beginning? To the point of having to break the rules from the get go? That hardly makes sense, especially if we're talking about the 53rd iteration of the game. They should have known better.

Originally Posted by ScherzoPrime

(...)

I think in practice in serves two functions; on a surface level in lines up with how 'reality tv' is to a certain extent really all stage managed, with rivalries and betrayals invented out of thing air. But on a more substantial level it sort of has an existentialist element, of a sort; that we can *never* be true that our thoughts and aspirations are authentically our own; we have to live with the uncertainty that our reality is inseparable from the fictions we and everyone else leave. I just wish they'd actually focused on that more during the climax than just going 'Fuck DR, we out'.

(...)

Course, whether you see it as Tsumugi/Fictional!Team DR jumping the shark or Kodaka/Real!Team DR jumping the shark is up to your own discretion.

You might be right, but if so it kind of fell flat for me. I don't know if you can actually have a commentary on existentialism and the authenticity of the self in a five-minute-before-the-end twist and wrap that in a killing game with shit motives because sequelitis is the death of creativity. That might be the big issue with the theming in this game : everything being clumsily crammed in the final chapter. Like you said, too many balls being juggled.
TheGeniusArcana
Member
(10-13-2017, 04:27 AM)
TheGeniusArcana's Avatar

Originally Posted by MetroidPrimeRib

Its 10000% that Maki fell in love with Kaito and not Shuichi and never switched not even at the very end

Yuuuuuuup. Honestly I don’t like her much, but I feel the same about Kaito. They characterization was the weakest out of the DR companion characters for me.
ScherzoPrime
Member
(10-13-2017, 05:38 AM)
ScherzoPrime's Avatar
There is some circumstantial evidence that Tsumugi might be lying about the 'ultimates' consenting to the game; Kaede remembers in the prologue, before the first flashback light, being kidnapped. I mean this 'could' be the way they're chosen, but it sort of seems unnecessary if they were in fact all consenting to it.
Puruzi
Banned
(10-13-2017, 05:59 AM)
I actually liked Tsumugi

¯_(ツ)_/ ¯
LiK
(10-13-2017, 06:30 AM)
LiK's Avatar

Originally Posted by ScherzoPrime

There is some circumstantial evidence that Tsumugi might be lying about the 'ultimates' consenting to the game; Kaede remembers in the prologue, before the first flashback light, being kidnapped. I mean this 'could' be the way they're chosen, but it sort of seems unnecessary if they were in fact all consenting to it.

Yea, I don’t buy it at all.

Kidnap them, brainwash them and get them to sign a consent form.
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 06:39 AM)

Originally Posted by ScherzoPrime

Well to me the implication, and I think they could've done a better job making it more explicit, is that for all her expressed fandom of Danganronpa she's actually kind of a terrible showrunner. The backstory is hokey with a shoehorned reference to the 'original series', and the meta-fictional element was a *planned* element of the show itself. Like a friend said she's sort of the definition of a 'bad fan', she wants DR to continue because she superficially like elements of it and wants to it go on forever.

I think in practice in serves two functions; on a surface level in lines up with how 'reality tv' is to a certain extent really all stage managed, with rivalries and betrayals invented out of thing air. But on a more substantial level it sort of has an existentialist element, of a sort; that we can *never* be true that our thoughts and aspirations are authentically our own; we have to live with the uncertainty that our reality is inseparable from the fictions we and everyone else leave. I just wish they'd actually focused on that more during the climax than just going 'Fuck DR, we out'.



Like I said, I think Tsumugi is actually pretty bad at this. The planned 'script' of the story included both the 'fuck it, let's go to space' aspect AND the meta-fictional reveal. How Tsumugi could even believe there could be another season after jumping the shark like this is beyond me.

Course, whether you see it as Tsumugi/Fictional!Team DR jumping the shark or Kodaka/Real!Team DR jumping the shark is up to your own discretion.

The meta fictional reveal wasn't planned at all. It only happened because Keebo broke. When she says they're still "on script" she means that she's confident they won't end the killing game even though things have gone completely out of hand. If he didn't break they probably would have gotten another flashback light to make them think that like Maki was secretly a remnant of despair too, or for her to remember a time when Kaito told her she could avenge his death by killing Shuichi or something. If you remember, during Chapter 6 investigation Tsugumi just lets you find the Kaede's sister false flag and tries to trick you into thinking she can't get Motherkuma to do anything. She for sure wanted the Hope's Peak motivations and killing game to continue.

Originally Posted by ScherzoPrime

There is some circumstantial evidence that Tsumugi might be lying about the 'ultimates' consenting to the game; Kaede remembers in the prologue, before the first flashback light, being kidnapped. I mean this 'could' be the way they're chosen, but it sort of seems unnecessary if they were in fact all consenting to it.

Hah, I forgot about that! Good call.
ScherzoPrime
Member
(10-13-2017, 07:28 AM)
ScherzoPrime's Avatar

Originally Posted by saturnine



You might be right, but if so it kind of fell flat for me. I don't know if you can actually have a commentary on existentialism and the authenticity of the self in a five-minute-before-the-end twist and wrap that in a killing game with shit motives because sequelitis is the death of creativity. That might be the big issue with the theming in this game : everything being clumsily crammed in the final chapter. Like you said, too many balls being juggled.

I think it really depends on whether you feel the meta-fictional twist, and everything that falls out of that, are properly related to the truth/lies, reality/fiction thematicism. I'd be willing to argue that on some level it does; the DR of the 'outside world', where DR is constantly repeated out of sadistic voyuerism and cheap affirmation without any meaning, denies the reality of the pain it inflicts on the participants. And I think the DR of the outside world sort of speaks to Kodaka's outlook on what making DRs ad naseum would be like, from his perspective as a creator; that continuing to create characters through all this suffering again and again to always come to the conclusion that 'hope will always triumph' or whatever would make those games lies, because the reality is their suffering *would* be meaningless, their 'hope' eternally fleeting. For DR to have any sort of truth, there has to be a finality to it.

This doesn't invalidate DR1/2's message, it in fact respects what they were doing by maintaining their uniqueness. The DR of V3's outside world is a perverse joke where 'hope and despair' are hoary phrases divorced from any meaning. So forcing the game to end, the victories of those distinct narratives can have meaning. Fiction isn't just made to be consumed, but can have a qualia of truth that makes the act of creating and experiencing something even as silly as Danganronpa worthwhile, but that can only exist when the act of creating and experiencing are done in good faith, not out of mere familiarity or obligation. I think in that sense the arbitrary way Hope V. Despair suddenly is interjected into the narrative in Chapter 5 is a clue in to the final twist; that a story where the outline of narrative beats to his known from the outset isn't worth telling.

The broader question is, could you accomplish this all without the metafictional twist? Well... I dunno, but I think for Kodaka it was sort of necessary to ensure that the earth was salted with DR; that there could be no pretense of their being a 'legitimate' Danganronpa game after this one. He's said his peace, and he's out.

Originally Posted by Brock Reiher

The meta fictional reveal wasn't planned at all. It only happened because Keebo broke. When she says they're still "on script" she means that she's confident they won't end the killing game even though things have gone completely out of hand. If he didn't break they probably would have gotten another flashback light to make them think that like Maki was secretly a remnant of despair too, or for her to remember a time when Kaito told her she could avenge his death by killing Shuichi or something. If you remember, during Chapter 6 investigation Tsugumi just lets you find the Kaede's sister false flag and tries to trick you into thinking she can't get Motherkuma to do anything. She for sure wanted the Hope's Peak motivations and killing game to continue.

She wouldn't have placed the History of Hope's Peak Book, knowing it contradicts their flashback light memories, unless she intended them to uncover it. The way she goes about the final trial seems to imply that the revelation of their fictional status was the way of inflicting an ultimate despair on them. All the stuff beforehand could just be part of her showmanship; it's totally a DR tradition for character's to divert from the truth merely as a way of ratcheting up the drama, which is definitely Tsumugi's modus operandi in this case. wrt to the first case, it's already been established that the Masterminds can interfere with cases from the very beginning; see the bogus Trial 5/6 from Danganronpa 1.
WrenchNinja
Member
(10-13-2017, 09:18 AM)
I read about the two major spoilers before the game came out which really put me off on buying this game. But I'm a sucker and ended up getting it anyway since I've played every other release, and I'm pleasantly surprised.

I feel like they handled both the decoy protagonist and metatextual commentary really well in reality. I generally do not like fake outs like this, or when continuity is negated or twisted, but I think knowing the spoilers helped me get over the visceral reaction I would have gotten had I played it blind.

Kokichi is probably my favourite character of the cast.
LiK
(10-13-2017, 02:35 PM)
LiK's Avatar

Originally Posted by WrenchNinja

I read about the two major spoilers before the game came out which really put me off on buying this game. But I'm a sucker and ended up getting it anyway since I've played every other release, and I'm pleasantly surprised.

I feel like they handled both the decoy protagonist and metatextual commentary really well in reality. I generally do not like fake outs like this, or when continuity is negated or twisted, but I think knowing the spoilers helped me get over the visceral reaction I would have gotten had I played it blind.

Kokichi is probably my favourite character of the cast.

They did a really good job with Kaede. They made her likeable and unique so she didn't feel like a throwaway decoy.
Jeffrey
Member
(10-13-2017, 03:34 PM)

Originally Posted by LiK

They did a really good job with Kaede. They made her likeable and unique so she didn't feel like a throwaway decoy.

Shame the rest of the game was pretty forgettable until about the end.

Opened too strong for its own good lol.
LiK
(10-13-2017, 03:50 PM)
LiK's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Shame the rest of the game was pretty forgettable until about the end.

Opened too strong for its own good lol.

I think the motivations for Chapter 2 and 3 were def contrived. Some of the weakest in the series. Chapter 4 was pretty interesting since it was game-like. I really liked that investigation and change in scenery.
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 03:57 PM)

Originally Posted by LiK

I think the motivations for Chapter 2 and 3 were def contrived. Some of the weakest in the series. Chapter 4 was pretty interesting since it was game-like. I really liked that investigation and change in scenery.

Chapter 4 is probably my least favorite since 5 in the original. It's so boring and drawn out and obvious and is only width anything because of how good Gonta's VA is. It honestly just made me wish I was playing DR2 again. Chapter 3 is super contrived but I loved how they leaned hard into how contrived it is and made it something special once Korekiyo takes off his mask. Chapter 2 isn't great but it's pretty standard post-motivation stuff, they set up way in advance that Kirumi does black ops stuff as a maid.

Maybe I'll change my mind later but Kaede is one of the more boring characters. She's basically just end-game Makoto but more proactive. I loved how Shuichi was immediately like "Hey... there's a super suspicious door hidden here."

I can't get over how great the ending was, even if it may not make any sense at all. The point where the OG Danganronpa music kicks in and Monokuma just yells "Danganronpa!" while laughing is probably the closest I've felt to being one of the characters in the killing game lol. Despair...

Also I'm pretty sure the videos of the cast before they had their memories wiped are real. Makoto says he's excited to join the killing game once he's old enough, so that's a thing. Kidnapping is a fake memory.
Jeffrey
Member
(10-13-2017, 04:54 PM)
Really do wish the final chapter was more... Of a challenge. The investigation part basically spells out what happened even more than the other cases. The overall difficulty was basically a tutorial case.

Then the twist gameplay might as well not even be there. Only hard part was the rhythm thing. Only time I got less than a A score lol.

I knew a twist was coming but I kinda expect some ultimate final boss lvl of challenge for the trial as well...

It's like if a game skips the final dungeon and boss and go straight to the epilogue lol.
Keinning
Member
(10-13-2017, 05:03 PM)
Keinning's Avatar
You people complaining about the looping VR world thingy but i was having a brain meltdown over the "pause the video and swap the person on it" BIG TWIST on chapter five. It was obvious as soon as they mentioned the video was not edited and the camera only had record - play - pause functionality and i wanted to mention that thing for ages and the game never let me, always using the stupid footage as UNREFUTABLE PROOF OF WHAT HAPPENED

nngh
Jeffrey
Member
(10-13-2017, 05:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Keinning

You people complaining about the looping VR world thingy but i was having a brain meltdown over the "pause the video and swap the person on it" BIG TWIST on chapter five. It was obvious as soon as they mentioned the video was not edited and the camera only had record - play - pause functionality and i wanted to mention that thing for ages and the game never let me, always using the stupid footage as UNREFUTABLE PROOF OF WHAT HAPPENED

nngh

Lol that case. Surprised Kaito trusted him to pause the video and the press at the right time.

Koichi could barely walk. You wince in pain for a split second and... Splat lol.
LiK
(10-13-2017, 05:07 PM)
LiK's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Lol that case. Surprised Kaito trusted him to pause the video and the press at the right time.

Koichi could barely walk. You wince in pain for a split second and... Splat lol.

Lol, the whole thing was just insane. Kaito impersonating Kokichi in the EXISAL was over the top.
Puruzi
Banned
(10-13-2017, 05:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Really do wish the final chapter was more... Of a challenge. The investigation part basically spells out what happened even more than the other cases. The overall difficulty was basically a tutorial case.

Then the twist gameplay might as well not even be there. Only hard part was the rhythm thing. Only time I got less than a A score lol.

I knew a twist was coming but I kinda expect some ultimate final boss lvl of challenge for the trial as well...

It's like if a game skips the final dungeon and boss and go straight to the epilogue lol.

That's every DR final case thp. It's a huge story dump and that's basically it
Keinning
Member
(10-13-2017, 05:09 PM)
Keinning's Avatar

Originally Posted by LiK

Lol, the whole thing was just insane. Kaito impersonating Kokichi in the EXISAL was over the top.



don't even remember me that shit
so out of character for kaito to play kokichi like that. and don't gimme that "HE WROTE A SCRIPT FOR THE THINGS I SHOULD SAY LOL" crap, danganronpa. i can believe school spaceships and maids being prime ministers and high school girls destroying the world but that's too much suspension of disbelief for me
LiK
(10-13-2017, 05:10 PM)
LiK's Avatar

Originally Posted by Keinning

don't even remember me that shit
so out of character for kaito to play kokichi like that. and don't gimme that "HE WROTE A SCRIPT FOR THE THINGS I SHOULD SAY LOL" crap, danganronpa. i can believe school spaceships and maids being prime ministers and high school girls destroying the world but that's too much suspension of disbelief for me

The script was such BS. As if Kokichi had time to write that shit out. Def such a lazy thing to create mystery during the trial. Def wasn’t a fan of all that.
Brock Reiher
Banned
(10-13-2017, 05:11 PM)

Originally Posted by LiK

The script was such BS. As if Kokichi had time to write that shit out. Def such a lazy thing to create mystery during the trial. Def wasn’t a fan of all that.

Didn't he have like a week where everyone was just moping?

Thread Tools