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Xux
Member
(10-11-2017, 08:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by TriggerShy

[....]Twineedle

Can I get a Bianca spinoff anime, please?

Also, I look forward to discussing the time Smog got buffed.
balladofwindfishes
(10-11-2017, 08:51 PM)
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Moving so fast you're breaking the sound barrier and causing a small explosion only does 20 damage. Running really, really fast with Quick Attack does 40.

That's Pokemon
Garjon
Member
(10-11-2017, 08:55 PM)
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Put me down as a +1 for thinking acid moves should hit Steel types

I struggle to see the point of Acid, now that Acid Spray exists. Same power but is guaranteed to greatly lower Special Defence
megarockexe
Member
(10-11-2017, 08:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by TriggerShy


Disable

I never understood why Pokemon Stadium decided to go with the spitting silly-string for that move. It never made much sense and I've never forgotten it. I think even Wrap is done that way. That's one attack the mainline games got better. Gen 3's is spot on though.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
(10-11-2017, 09:06 PM)
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Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-11-2017, 09:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by megarockexe

I never understood why Pokemon Stadium decided to go with the spitting silly-string for that move. It never made much sense and I've never forgotten it. I think even Wrap is done that way. That's one attack the mainline games got better. Gen 3's is spot on though.

I think the kanji that make up Kanashibari translate to like "golden tie/restraint", or something---so maybe that?
Spinosaurus
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(10-11-2017, 10:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by balladofwindfishes

Moving so fast you're breaking the sound barrier and causing a small explosion only does 20 damage. Running really, really fast with Quick Attack does 40.

That's Pokemon

idk, former is a set damage and is actually really powerful at low levels, while latter is its power value and not quite as strong usually.
Last edited by Spinosaurus; 10-11-2017 at 10:12 PM.
Bubble
Junior Member
(10-11-2017, 10:16 PM)
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Surprised that Supersonic and Sing have such low accuracy. Certainly doesn't feel that way when you play.

Also never knew that the damage from confusion came from the afflicted's Attack stat. I always thought it was a set amount of damage every time (like 1/8th). Learning something new every day, I suppose.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-11-2017, 11:33 PM)
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Well the moves themselves have low accuracy, but the effects are guaranteed when they hit---so that's probably why you associate with them as having high accuracy in your mind.
unknownstranger
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(10-11-2017, 11:42 PM)
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None of the last 5 moves really have much using competitively. Sonic Boom is banned from Little Cup for obvious reasons. Supersonic and Acid are both terrible. Sing has a very small niche with Z moves where the +1 speed can help you sweep, but almost everything that can learn it is really slow. Disable is also extremely niche but does have a pretty good use with Mega Gengar in Ubers. Mega Gengar that have it always have substitute to bait out attacks it's weak to like Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades. It can then disable it and at the very least weaken it enough for another Pokemon to finish it off later.
NipplesAndToes23
Banned
(10-11-2017, 11:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

Kind of a boring batch this time...

Rolling Kick - Fighting [Physical]
60/15PP/85%

The Japanese name of this attack is "Mawashigeri", which specifically refers to the technique known as the "Roundhouse Kick". I think due to character limits, they went with "Rolling Kick", or they didn't realize it was a specific technique and translated the individual Japanese words that make up the name and ended up with "Rolling Kick"? Personally it's not too bad of a name, but I think "Round Kick" would've worked had the character limit been the main issue. The French version just straight up went with "Mawashi Geri", and I guess hoped kids would realize what the heck that meant? Even more vital in Generation I where the lack of in-game move descriptions meant the name of the attack was what you ultimately had to go off of when you first encountered a new attack.

This move isn't anything special, and should probably have its accuracy raised to 100% at this point. But it wasn't the worst move either, as the accuracy wasn't too bad for Gen I, the attack was pretty nice, and there was the additional flinch effect. Considering only Hitmonlee and Hitmontop learned it naturally till Marshadow came along, and it basically became Hitmontop's signature move, it's easy to see why Game Freak has overlooked buffing it after all these years. You know, this gets me thinking---do Game Freak like the Hitmons? I mean most fans would consider them classic Pokemon, but Game Freak really doesn't do much with them anymore. And I don't really recall them popping up under the control of any major characters either in the games. Just something that kind of hit me right now. Oh, and because I don't have much to add about Rolling Kick.

Sand Attack - Ground [Status]
15PP/100%
Sand is hurled in the target's face, reducing the target's accuracy.
If powered up by a Groundium Z into Z-Sand Attack, the user's evasiveness raises one stage.

Less of an "attack" despite the name, this is one of the first status moves you'll encounter in many adventures and designed specifically to annoy you by prolonging the battle. Quite a few early game Pokemon learn it, Gen III perhaps the worst as the super common Zigzagoon and Poochyena lines use it, and the computer will use this against you even if it'd be better to simply attack you because it likes to annoy you. It sees no real usage in the competitive scene as far as I'm aware, either because such moves are frowned upon, or their are better accuracy lowering options available with better effects that don't waste an important move slot. Most people who play through the adventure probably use attack moves more or less exclusively instead of bothering with "gimmicks", so I doubt any human really uses this move except maybe at the very beginning of the game where you don't have any other options available.

Bulbapedia translates the Japanese name, "Sunakake", as "Sand Attack", but I think the "Sand Scrape" name I've seen used elsewhere sounds a bit more fitting given its non-damaging nature. It was a Normal-type move in Generation I but changed to a Ground-type move in Generation II, though this didn't do anything as Flying-type Pokemon are still effected by it. I don't really see the need to change this either because while quite a few Ground-type Pokemon learn it, many other Pokemon do too and it seems to be merely kicking up sand off the ground instead of actually manipulating the very earth itself.

Nope. I use this shit a lot. How else I'm going to get past the bullshit?

Whatever happened to the one hit KO moves? I think I stopped seeing them since gen 2.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-11-2017, 11:59 PM)
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As we'll see when we get to the other two OHKO moves in Generation I some did carve out a niche in future games.
Boogiepop
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(10-12-2017, 05:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Bubble

Also never knew that the damage from confusion came from the afflicted's Attack stat. I always thought it was a set amount of damage every time (like 1/8th). Learning something new every day, I suppose.

I think I realized it when Swagger came about, because that's kind of the whole point of the move.

Also, man, I remember Disable pretty much always missing against me and feeling so pointless, haha. (Never bothered with it myself).

Edit: Huh. I would've sworn Swagger was a Gen III move, but I just happened to check, and... it was Gen II? I don't really remember it from GSC at all. Weird how I apparently blanked that out.
Last edited by Boogiepop; 10-12-2017 at 05:32 AM.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
(10-12-2017, 05:38 AM)
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Yeah, Swagger's point was that.

It's why Swagkeys is hilarious.
Elaugaufein
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(10-12-2017, 05:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by Boogiepop

I think I realized it when Swagger came about, because that's kind of the whole point of the move.

Also, man, I remember Disable pretty much always missing against me and feeling so pointless, haha. (Never bothered with it myself).

Edit: Huh. I would've sworn Swagger was a Gen III move, but I just happened to check, and... it was Gen II? I don't really remember it from GSC at all. Weird how I apparently blanked that out.

It's because it's distribution was only Politoed, Slowking and Entei naturally , it didn't become an egg move until Gen III, and it's only other source was a single use non-purchasable TM in Gen II.
Boogiepop
Member
(10-12-2017, 06:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Elaugaufein

It's because it's distribution was only Politoed, Slowking and Entei naturally , it didn't become an egg move until Gen III, and it's only other source was a single use non-purchasable TM in Gen II.

Ah, well that'd explain it, then.
unknownstranger
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(10-12-2017, 06:07 AM)
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SwagPlay (Swagger and Foul Play) kind of died in gen 7 with the confusion nerf. Swagger actually got banned in Doubles OU this gen because it was too good to use on one of your own Pokemon because the risk with only 1/3rd chance to hit yourself made it worth the reward. Plus with Marshadow out it became really dumb to play against with it stealing the Swagger boosts.
DiamondDog74
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(10-12-2017, 06:30 AM)
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Ooh man. Forgot about the Pokemon review thread. Ugh I was dating such an awful person at the time. Didnt even finish reading everything
Malrend
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(10-12-2017, 08:07 AM)
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There are so many of these moves that I don't remember ever encountering in Gen I.
I honestly thought that Pin Missile was a Gen II addition, never heard of Twineedle until Gen IV, and I've never heard of Rolling Kick at all.

This is rather exciting in some ways.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-12-2017, 08:08 AM)
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Ember - Fire [Special]
40/25PP/100%
The target is attacked with small flames. This may also leave the target with a burn.

Ember is the most basic Fire-type move, and is the first Fire-type attack learned by every Fire-type Starter, and in general most Fire-type Pokemon. In fact the only four Pokemon who can learn it who aren't Fire-type are the Bagon-line and Castform, though it is actually a Fire-type Pokemon when in its Sunny Form. It's a solid attack that you can probably make some use of for quite awhile, and as many early game areas are filled with Bug-type and Grass-type Pokemon you'll find plenty of victims to try it on. It also has a 10% chance of inflicting burn, which like poison can be devastating early on when HP is low.

Burn's an interesting status effect. The more casual player might just think it's a different "flavor" of poison, virtually working the same except for the fact it doesn't persist damaging the Pokemon out of battle. In Generation I both poison and burn subtracted 1/16 of the user's HP at the end of each turn, or in Gen I after they attacked, with it being raised to 1/8 of their HP come Generation II. Unlike poison, though, burn as of Generation VII has been reduced back to 1/16 while poison remains at 1/8. Why? Well, that's because burn has an additional effect that the game doesn't really tell you. Well, technically, there are probably NPCs who mention it, including a blackboard in the Trainer's School in RBY which actually tells you something wrong about it as well, but many players probably didn't pay attention. I know it was quite a few years before I learned of burn's secondary effect.

You see while inflicting additional damage on a Pokemon is always nice, the secondary effect of burn effectively cuts their Attack in half---in Generation I it literally did this, but nowadays it's technically the BP of Physical moves that are cut in half. This can straight-up neuter Physical attackers, as that cut in power will persist regardless if they switch out if one of their teammembers isn't carrying a healing move. Though there are counters to burn, such as switching in a Fire-type Pokemon who is resistant to it or one of the various Pokemon who gain boosts when they're burned, its biggest barrier was probably the fact that traditionally burning moves weren't super common, and most of them had a low chance of actually inflicting burn. Thankfully Game Freak would never introduce a move that could cause burn and was widely available to a ton of non-Fire Type Pokemon who could abuse it...oh.

You'll note once more it seems like Physical Pokemon get the short end of the stick with confusion and burn hurting them far more. Personally, I think burn cutting both physical and special attacks down could work (I get why it wasn't like that in Gen I though where Special was both Special Attack and Special Defense), but perhaps that might be too destructive to the Pokemon as spamming burn would be even more effective. Perhaps the best option would be to make the attack reduction less punishing, such as a mere 10 or 20BP reduction instead of slicing them in half. But as I've said I'm not super into the competitive scene, so I don't know if that'd be considered viable.

One time in the show there was a scene where May ordered Torchic to use Ember. In the original version she mixes up its name, "hinoko", with mushroom, "kinoko", and there's a picture of a mushroom that pops up. 4Kids despite having shown they like to edit the show keeps the mushroom picture, but changes the joke to her saying "amber", leaving people scratching their head. Not really a huge deal, but the funny part is the Latin American dub of the show apparently had been calling Ember "Ambar", or "amber", since the original series. According to Bulbapedia during the Advanced era they started to call it "Sorpresa", which is their name for Fake Out. Bulbapedia points this out so I can't say from personal experience if this is true, but I recall people earlier in the thread mentioning such localization mishaps.

Flamethrower - Fire [Special]
90/15PP/100%
The target is scorched with an intense blast of fire. This may also leave the target with a burn.

In Generation I this was easily the best Fire-type move, and one of the best moves in the game alongside Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. Though Fire Blast had more power, Flamethrower still had a mighty power of 95 (only recently changed to 90 in Gen VI) and perfect accuracy, as well as a 10% chance to burn the opponent as a little bonus. Even today as we've seen crazier and crazier moves pop up Flamethrower is still an incredibly useful and reliable move, though with the Physical/Special split in Generation IV it's no longer necessarily the most optimal Fire-type move for some. But if you're a Special Attacker looking for a Fire-type move, this or Fire Blast is pretty much going to be your choice based on how much you value accuracy over power.

Flamethrower can kind of be seen as the advanced version of Ember, most of the same Pokemon picking it up as they near the end of their movelist---in fact in Generation I it was the strongest Fire-type move you could naturally learn as Fire Blast was only available through TM. Like with Ember it's learned by all of the Fire Starters, but Torchic and Chimchar are interesting because they're the only members of their line who learn it naturally and only if you keep them unevolved till a very high level. It's also almost exclusively limited to Fire-type Pokemon naturally except for the Bagon line once more and...Skuntank. It's been a TM since Generation III though, and it seems everyone and their mother can learn it, including some Water-types, regardless if it really makes sense. Another plus for it becoming such a staple. We still haven't gone into crazy town yet though and had a pure (as in not Arceus or Silvally) Ice-type Pokemon pick it up, but that's probably on its way.

Mist - Ice [Status]
30PP
The user cloaks itself and its allies in a white mist that prevents any of their stats from being lowered for five turns.
If powered up by a Icium Z into Z-Mist, the user regains all of its HP.

Here's a move that young me didn't really get what it did, and always considered it being used by the opponent a "waste". In Generation I Mist prevented the Pokemon using it from having their stats lowered through a move, but it only worked on moves that specifically lowered stats---using Acid, for example, would still hurt the opponent and could lower their Defense. So its usefulness was reduced somewhat, and honestly whenever the CPU used this I was like "who cares", and just blasted them with my stronger attack. It was Generation I, most of us didn't care about buffs and debuffs and only about pure power. Also note that Mist protects from future stat deductions, but not ones currently in effect---you still need to switch out for that to occur.

Generation II fixed Mist up a bit by now preventing stat lowering from damaging moves, but not their damage, which made it a bit better. Generation III saw the biggest revamp, in tandem with Double Battles, as Mist now lasted for five turns, instead of until the user switched out, and helped cover all of your Pokemon from stat changes including those from Abilities such as Intimidate. Note, though, that Mist does not prevent if you use a move with the downside of lowering a stat (such as Overheat's Special Attack reduction), and also your ally cannot lower another one of your Pokemon's stats when Mist in in effect though honestly I'm not sure if this opens up any combinations. I don't think there are any moves you can use on another Pokemon that both lowers and raises multiple stats, so there's no combo to be found there. Anyway this was one of the earliest example of a "field move" which effects the field of battle, a concept that would become more and more prominent over the years. Though in this case it only effects your side of the field so, uh, perhaps a "half-field move"?

Since mist in its basic definition is when warm, humid air meets something cool, such as ice or water, and thus Water and Ice-type Pokemon are those who learn it. Thankfully Game Freak didn't miss out on giving it to our first Fire/Water Pokemon, Volcanion. A special Event Reshiram can also have it, though it has nothing to do with the fact it can fuse with the Ice-type Kyurem as it was introduced before that concept was to tie into the Victini film I believe.

Water Gun - Water [Special]
40/25PP/100%
The target is blasted with a forceful shot of water.

Though Water Gun is usually seen as the "basic" Water-type move in a way to how Ember fills that role for Fire-type Pokemon, for the first few Generations it was technically the second as Bubble was learned at an even earlier level and slightly weaker. Nowadays Bubble has been buffed to match Water Gun in power, and is technically "stronger" due to having an additional effect, so Water Gun actually is the more basic Water-type move now. But we'll talk more about that when we get to Bubble.

Anyway, this is an attack where I wonder if they would've dropped the "gun" from the localization as gun violence has increased at a steady rate, to the point that around the time of Pokemon's release I recall already they were shying away from the toy name "water gun" and using more generic names like "super soaker" and such. But who knows, it's made it this far without raising any controversy---despite Pokemon succumbing to quite a lot of that in Generation I---so I guess this might be me overplaying how much influence moral guardians really have. Basically, Water Gun demonstrates the unexplained ability for Water-type Pokemon to launch massive amounts of water from their body from seemingly nowhere, and it's one of those nagging questions that still bother some fans. You can kind of explain Fire-type Pokemon and Electric-type Pokemon generating those elemental attacks through chemical reactions and such, but shooting out gallons of water? Of course the original animations didn't make it seem like a ton of water, but the anime, and boy does it love this move, always have the Pokemon shooting out a miniature lake worth of water.

It was once learned at higher levels when it was stronger than Bubble, but in recent Generations it's been lowered and lowered---for example, Squirtle learned it at Level 15 in Generation I. Totodile learned it at Level 13 in Generation II. And Popplio learns it at Level 1 now. Piplup and Froakie are the only Water-type Starters who don't get it, in case you're wondering. The rest of its natural users are either Water-type Pokemon, or in one of the Water Egg Groups and shown to be somewhat aquatic such as Anorith and Stunfisk. My favorite user is Phanpy, who Game Freak gave it to as an Egg Move in Crystal since elephants can squirt water from their trunk. Cute! But this was removed after Crystal, and until that gets released on the Virtual Console is unavailable in modern games. Oh, how I long for a legal Water Gun Donphan! Also for whatever reason it was a TM in Generation I, where you had quite a few non-Water Type Pokemon gain access to it but I don't think this really helped any.

Hydro Pump - Water [Special]
110/5PP/80%
The target is blasted by a huge volume of water launched under great pressure.

Hydro Pump was the strongest Water-type move when it was introduced in Generation I with 120BP. It was learned at awfully high-levels by most, and only, Water-type Pokemon usually right around when you reached the Elite Four, so many players tossed it onto their Pokemon and got ready to wreck some havoc. But unfortunately Hydro Pump had a downside that became quite apparent, and that was its low accuracy coupled with its meager PP meant it was very possible you could blow through it in a single match and have none left for when it was time to face your Rival. Surf proved to be its biggest rival for the "best" Water-type move as it was more accurate, had way more PP usage, and was fairly powerful in its own right. But in a way the two actually worked together, as since it was an HM it was very easy to teach a Water-type both. Thus you could have a Blastoise using its Surf to take care of the trash and clean up, while leading off with Hydro Pump for the big boys.

Nowadays in the competitive scene it seems to be an even split. It seems some players do like to take the risk with Hydro Pump due to its higher damage output, while others might like to stick with Surf. The latter probably sees more use overall by being available to more Pokemon as a Water-type coverage move, but it seems most high-powered Special Water-type Pokemon will be carrying Hydro Pump. In the main games though Hydro Pump has never receive a PP increase or accuracy bump, despite its BP being lowered in Generation VI, so you'll probably still better off with using Surf in that case. The fact most Pokemon can learn attacks of at least four different Types for coverage also reduces the usefulness of carrying both Hydro Pump and Surf together.

Hydro Pump as mentioned before was learned by most Water-type Pokemon in Generation I, and was typically seen as Blastoise's signature move. In reality plenty of other Pokemon learned it naturally, and technically Blastoise's signature move was another, far less fondly remembered attack, but it stuck in the mind as Blastoise's signature attack since it was easy to picture it launching blasts of water out of its cannons. Actually the 3D games went to extra effort to have Blastoise fire two streams of water when using Hydro Pump instead of one, until XY that is...the first time Blastoise was seen in full 3D in a main title and they simply had him fire a single stream of water like everyone else. Mega Blastoise didn't fare any better though when it came to using Hydro Pump.

Like Water Gun, Hydro Pump is basically limited to Water-type Pokemon and those in the Water Egg Groups. The exceptions are Castform, though once more it can become a Water-type when in its Rain Form, and Wash Rotom in Generation IV where it stayed Electric/Ghost instead of turning into an Electric/Water Pokemon. Now that it has, it seems to have become one of the more notable users of Hydro Pump in the competitive scene. There's also a rare Event Salamence you could get with it in Generation IV, but I imagine very few Pokemon own this Pokemon and I don't imagine anyone has ever made use of it competitively.
unknownstranger
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(10-12-2017, 08:47 AM)
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Surf lost a lot of its competitive viability when gen 5 introduced Scald and they gave it to nearly every water type. If you didn't want to deal with Hydro Pump's accuracy, you could sacrifice a little bit more power for a great 30% chance to burn. I was expecting Scald's burn chance to get nerfed in gen 7 but it didn't happen.

Flamethrower never really got spread out to non-fire types like Thunderbolt and to a lesser extent Ice Beam have. Even to legendaries it's not spread that well, including gen 7 where Magerna and Lunala got BoltBeam but neither got Flamethrower.
Last edited by unknownstranger; 10-12-2017 at 09:12 AM.
The Shadow Knight
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(10-12-2017, 09:07 AM)
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The Water Gun TM in gen 1 had some use if you were rolling with a Nidorino, letting you demolish the Hikers in Mt. Moon and near Route 25.

Hydro Pump is a regular old Egg Move for Salamence by the way. It was used by Choice Specs Salamence back in gen 4 and Special based Life Orb sets in gen 5.
Last edited by The Shadow Knight; 10-12-2017 at 09:13 AM.
Dryk
Member
(10-12-2017, 10:07 AM)
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Don't forget the most hilarious Kangaskhan moveset
- Water Gun
- Water Gun
- Sky Attack
-

EDIT: Also I should probably save this sentiment for when we get there, but fuck Scald. What a garbage idea.
Elaugaufein
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dryk

Don't forget the most hilarious Kangaskhan moveset
- Water Gun
- Water Gun
- Sky Attack
-

EDIT: Also I should probably save this sentiment for when we get there, but fuck Scald. What a garbage idea.

Scald is an interesting idea but they made it too powerful for its secondary effect, but Gamefreak have never really been good about balancing secondary effects which are almost always 30% chances of something no matter how good or crappy the something is. Also there's no real clear Bolt/Beam/Thrower level water move since Water has never had an associated status effect (the closest is the Speed drop from Bubble(beam), Surf is closest. Actually given the boost to Bubble , I could see re arranging the move sets so Water Gun is the Ember equivalent, Bubble is a mid level move, and Bubblebeam is the 90/100% move with like a 30% chance of Harsh Speed Drop or something.

I mean this is a problem with a lot of their more interesting ideas like Stealth Rock in that they don't seem to be fully baked.
Last edited by Elaugaufein; 10-12-2017 at 11:16 AM.
Smasher89
Member
(10-12-2017, 11:35 AM)

Originally Posted by unknownstranger

SwagPlay (Swagger and Foul Play) kind of died in gen 7 with the confusion nerf. Swagger actually got banned in Doubles OU this gen because it was too good to use on one of your own Pokemon because the risk with only 1/3rd chance to hit yourself made it worth the reward. Plus with Marshadow out it became really dumb to play against with it stealing the Swagger boosts.

meanwhile in VGC the move doesnt get any use due to the lowered acc which also affects selfswagger, making it almost too unreliable.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
(10-12-2017, 12:54 PM)
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I'm always pissed at how water gun is shown in the games vs in the anime

like in the anime it's a hose spray while in the games it looks like a terrible release
NipplesAndToes23
Banned
(10-12-2017, 01:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Boss Doggie

I'm always pissed at how water gun is shown in the games vs in the anime

like in the anime it's a hose spray while in the games it looks like a terrible release

I thought in one game it was a hose spray.

I never knew Bubble got a buff. That's weird.
Danielsan
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(10-12-2017, 01:19 PM)
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Given that I'm a casual Pokémon fan who only plays the single player modes I'm shocked to learn that the burn status halves the burned opponents physical attack. I guess now I know why will-o-wisp is considered a great move.
balladofwindfishes
(10-12-2017, 01:19 PM)
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but nowadays it's technically the BP of Physical moves that are cut in half.

Does this mean Technician comes into effect if you're burned for most moves?
Nocturnowl
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(10-12-2017, 01:48 PM)
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I've been chuckling at gen 2's water gun animation a fair amount during my VC playthrough, it just looks so shoddy, three water droplets just dribbling slowly down the target.
balladofwindfishes
(10-12-2017, 01:51 PM)
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How weird, I can't remember what Water Gun even looks like in Stadium. I thought I knew what all the moves looked like, but I can't picture Water Gun in my head.
clemenx
Member
(10-12-2017, 01:54 PM)
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WDB you need to harass TPC to publish this and the other thread in a hardcover. I'd buy a hefty amount.

I love these threads so much.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-12-2017, 03:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dryk

Don't forget the most hilarious Kangaskhan moveset
- Water Gun
- Water Gun
- Sky Attack
-
.

Oh no, I totally forgot to mention that and I had planned to.

I remember people thinking Missingno was supposed to be a flamingo Pokemon because of that the "Bird" Type, lol.

Still surprised we don't have one though---I guess Aromatisse is the closest?

Originally Posted by Elaugaufein

Actually given the boost to Bubble , I could see re arranging the move sets so Water Gun is the Ember equivalent, Bubble is a mid level move, and Bubblebeam is the 90/100% move with like a 30% chance of Harsh Speed Drop or something.

They did do that, at least with Squirtle. It used to be Bubble then Water Gun, now it's Water Gun then Bubble.

Originally Posted by balladofwindfishes

Does this mean Technician comes into effect if you're burned for most moves?

I don't think so because Technician takes in account the move's original BP, and then I think Burn kicks in when you actually use the attack.

That'd give Technician an interesting niche though.
webrunner
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(10-12-2017, 03:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

Water Gun - Water [Special]
40/25PP/100%
The target is blasted with a forceful shot of water.

Though Water Gun is usually seen as the "basic" Water-type move in a way to how Ember fills that role for Fire-type Pokemon, for the first few Generations it was technically the second as Bubble was learned at an even earlier level and slightly weaker. Nowadays Bubble has been buffed to match Water Gun in power, and is technically "stronger" due to having an additional effect, so Water Gun actually is the more basic Water-type move now. But we'll talk more about that when we get to Bubble.

Anyway, this is an attack where I wonder if they would've dropped the "gun" from the localization as gun violence has increased at a steady rate, to the point that around the time of Pokemon's release I recall already they were shying away from the toy name "water gun" and using more generic names like "super soaker" and such. But who knows, it's made it this far without raising any controversy---despite Pokemon succumbing to quite a lot of that in Generation I---so I guess this might be me overplaying how much influence moral guardians really have. Basically, Water Gun demonstrates the unexplained ability for Water-type Pokemon to launch massive amounts of water from their body from seemingly nowhere, and it's one of those nagging questions that still bother some fans. You can kind of explain Fire-type Pokemon and Electric-type Pokemon generating those elemental attacks through chemical reactions and such, but shooting out gallons of water? Of course the original animations didn't make it seem like a ton of water, but the anime, and boy does it love this move, always have the Pokemon shooting out a miniature lake worth of water.

'super soaker' is a trademarked brand name so I dont think that's "more generic" :)
Aaron Strife
Honk if you love cookies.
(10-12-2017, 03:54 PM)
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Water Gun being a TM always saved my butt in Mt. Moon on Charmander runs. I’d give it to Nidoran, Clefairy or Rattata to help take down wild Geodudes.
TriggerShy
Member
(10-12-2017, 04:55 PM)
Ember





Flamethrower







Mist







Water Gun





Hydropump












Ash's Squirtle had the coolest Hydro Pump.
balladofwindfishes
(10-12-2017, 04:59 PM)
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Shooting water out of hooves?
EndMerit
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(10-12-2017, 05:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by TriggerShy

Mist

Eyyyyyy, that's pretty funny.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-12-2017, 05:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by balladofwindfishes

Shooting water out of hooves?

It...it was a dark time.
EndMerit
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(10-12-2017, 05:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by balladofwindfishes

Shooting water out of hooves?

Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

It...it was a dark time.


Enjoy.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-12-2017, 05:10 PM)
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May was horrifically broken by the end of Advanced...her newborn Squirtle and Eevee were legit god-tier.
Toxi
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(10-12-2017, 05:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

Though there are counters to burn, such as switching in a Fire-type Pokemon who is resistant to it or one of the various Pokemon who gain boosts when they're burned, its biggest barrier was probably the fact that traditionally burning moves weren't super common, and most of them had a low chance of actually inflicting burn. Thankfully Game Freak would never introduce a move that could cause burn and was widely available to a ton of non-Fire Type Pokemon who could abuse it...oh.

Originally Posted by Dryk

EDIT: Also I should probably save this sentiment for when we get there, but fuck Scald. What a garbage idea.

Seriously, fuck Scald.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-12-2017, 05:36 PM)
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Fun fact thanks to Dogasu's Backpack---the Japanese version of the classic Surfing Pikachu episode is a slight love letter to the American film "Big Wednesday".

Surf - Water [Special]
90/15PP/100%
The user attacks everything around it by swamping its surroundings with a giant wave.

Surf is another classic HM alongside Fly, serving as HM03 from Generation I through Generation VI. It's pretty much considered the best HM move because with 90BP (originally 95) and perfect accuracy it's a great move to carry on a Pokemon, perhaps one of the best Water-type move for many before the Physical/Special split occurred. As I said before this was a great move to give to a Pokemon as a solid attack alongside more powerful moves back in Gen I, such as pairing it with Hydro Pump to help conserve the latter's accuracy. Though there are plenty of Water-type moves to choose from nowadays it's still a nice move to have, though competitively it seems people tend to go with the higher power Water-type moves even though they have a slight more "risk" than the reliable Surf.

Surf is one of the most important HMs as it opens up entire areas of the map by allowing you to move over water, whereas the rest of the HMs typically only allow you to clear a small obstacle. So it's a good thing that it's actually a nice move since you'll definitely want to throw it on at least one Pokemon of your party, and as Water-type Pokemon are so common most folks will probably make sure to have one on their team in every Generation so they can use Surf once it becomes available. Visually Surf has chanced over the years when used in the field---originally it was the generic Water-type Pokemon sprite, you remember those right?, which looked like Seel and Dewgong. Generation II had it resemble Lapras, red though perhaps because of palette limitations, though if you're playing as a girl in Crystal it's correctly blue. Generation III went with a very generic looking fish shadow, kind of looking like Kyogre a bit, and that became the norm. Generation VI spiced it up by giving Lapras its own surfing model in XY, who you got as a gift when you obtained Surf (handholding!), and then ORAS followed suit by giving Kyogre, Wailmer, and Sharpedo their own unique surfing models as well as giving them unique attributes such as Sharpedo having faster speed. Speaking of speed, Surf was originally equal to walking speed, jumped up to running speed for Generation III, went down to walking speed with Diamond and Pearl, and then back to running speed for Platinum. As of now Surf is "gone" and replaced with Riding Pokemon, but I wouldn't be surprised if it returns in a remake.

As an HM, Surf is extremely widespread---almost every Water-type Pokemon learns it as do many non-Water Type Pokemon who are capable of ferrying someone over water, including a few who are otherwise weak to Water. Like Rhydon, who had an episode dedicated to the fact that it could Surf. Everytime you Surf on Rhydon you're basically torturing it and slowly killing it, but that's okay because your its Trainer and it does whatever it can to please you. No Pokemon learns it naturally, and it's the only HM that's exclusive to a machine I believe. Seems like Lapras should learn it naturally since that's basically its gimmick. It's now a TM, but every Pokemon who could learn it as an HM can still learn it. I feel like they'll keep it as a TM forever.

In Generation I, there was a "Surfing Pikachu" that you could unlock in Pokemon Stadium. Though this original Surfing Pikachu is no longer available in modern games, there have been quite a few Event Pikachu with Surf distributed over the years. Transferring it to Pokemon Yellow even allowed you to play the Surfing Pikachu minigame, and Game Freak was smart enough to change this around in the VC release of Pokemon Yellow so you could access it with the regular Pikachu since the Surfing Pikachu was no longer available via Pokemon Stadium. In Pokemon Stadium if you had a Raichu use Surf it would use its tail as a makeshift surfboard which became "canon" with Alolan Raichu who does just that, though as a hoverboard and it can't learn Surf. Game Freak really missed the mark there if you ask me.

Ice Beam - Ice [Special]
90/10PP/100%
The target is struck with an icy-cold beam of energy. This may also leave the target frozen.

Easily the most useful Ice-type attack when it was introduced, and still more or less is if you don't want to take the risk with Blizzard's lower accuracy, Ice Beam was extremely important upon its introduction as one of the only ways to deal with Lance's Dragon-type Pokemon. You wanted to make sure at least one of your Pokemon, probably your Water-type, was carrying this or Blizzard once you got to the Elite Four or you'd be in trouble.

Unfortunately, this more or less ruined actual Ice-type Pokemon from the beginning. While they were the natural learners of the move, and still are generally, Ice Beam was a TM in Generation I and was learned by basically every Water-type Pokemon who had the benefit of a much better defensive Type, so actual Ice-type Pokemon weren't as needed as the move itself. And with Ice Beam remaining a TM for years outside of Generation II (Move Tutor in Crystal) this continues to this day, with the best Ice Beam users generally being Water-type Pokemon while Ice-type Pokemon are passed over due to their myriad of weaknesses. Plenty of other non-Water Type Pokemon can learn it as well. So, yeah, it kind of sucks to be an Ice-type Pokemon and most people consider it the worst Type currently. Ice-type moves are great, Ice-type Pokemon not so much.

Ice Beam has a 10% chance of freezing the opponent, so let's talk about the freeze status effect! In Generation I, if you were froze that was basically it---if you didn't have an Ice Heal you weren't getting thawed. You can actually be released if the opponent hits you with a Fire-type move that causes a burn, which I always though was a rumor since I never saw it occur in person, or if they use Haze oddly enough. Future Generations actually gave you the chance to thaw naturally, 10% at first and now 20%, and it was also possible to use various Fire-type moves to forcefully unthaw yourself. Nowadays any Fire-type move used on a frozen Pokemon will unthaw them, though it's rare you'll have the opponent specifically do this (maybe our first Fire/Ice Pokemon will have a Fire-type attack that does extra damage to a frozen foe?), so the status effect has been nerfed quite a bit since its inception. It doesn't seem to be all that popular since there are currently no moves that guarantee freezing the opponent, and there aren't any additional effects like burn's Physical cut. Freezing an opponent can be devastating, but I don't think there are many strategies built around specifically doing it---it's a nice little bonus.

Blizzard - Ice [Special]
110/5PP/70%
A howling blizzard is summoned to strike opposing Pokémon. This may also leave the opposing Pokémon frozen.

Generally seen as the strongest Ice-type move, when it appeared in Generation I its accuracy was a nice 90% (and 120BP till Gen VI), but has since been lowered to 70% making it less viable and risky to use...unless you're in hail, where it will always hit. In Diamond and Pearl this even meant it had a chance to hit Pokemon behind Protect/Detect, though this glitch was fixed in Platinum. Another interesting thing to note about Blizzard is that in the original Japanese handheld titles it had a 30% of freezing the opponent, but was lowered to 10% for Stadium and the international releases. Japanese Gen I Blizzard was powerful as fuck. Nowadays I think most people go with Ice Beam, but carrying both Ice-type moves in Generation I was a viable strategy for the Elite Four.

In Generation I only Jynx and Articuno could learn this move naturally, and except for Suicune no non-Ice Water-type Pokemon has been able to learn it naturally. The only exception is Castform's Rain Form, and Castform in general also happens to be the exception as the only non-Ice Type Pokemon learning it naturally next to Suicune. But it's been a TM since Generation I, and like everyone and their mother (literally as both Marowak, even the Fire-type Alolan Variant, and Kangaskhan get it) can learn it. So what could've been the "ultimatum" for Ice-type Pokemon became everyone else's sloppy seconds. Gee, thanks Game Freak!

Psybeam
65/20PP/100%
The target is attacked with a peculiar ray. This may also leave the target confused.

The second best Psychic-type attack in Generation I behind Psychic (the move)---and possibly the second-best attack in the game? Not quite, but you know if you were around during Generation I you knew how devastating Psychic Pokemon were. Only other Psychic-type Pokemon resisted Psychic-type attacks, and most Psychic-type Pokemon had high Special and Speed so, well, they could probably kill you with this if given the chance. The 10% chance of confusion this move also has? Not really important back then since it'd probably quickly kill you before that took effect.

But, in reality, Psybeam wasn't that threatening because of its limited distribution with the only Psychic-type learning it in Generation I being Kadabra and Alakazam. It instead ended up being associated with Butterfree and Venomoth for whatever reason, and while they could do some damage with it it wasn't as obscenely powerful in their hands as it was when the Psychics used it. Generation I had a weird thing with associating bugs with Psychic powers for whatever reason, was this a result of the failed idea of making Bug-type Pokemon the counter to Psychic-types? Even Sabrina used a Venomoth. I guess it's supposed to be like bugs shooting this from their unique multi-lensed eyes or something?

More Psychic-type Pokemon learn this attack nowadays, but it's still being distributed to Bug-type Pokemon and some other odd examples like Mantine and Koffing through breeding. The Japanese name is simply "Psyche Beam", so there doesn't seem to be a hidden meaning that'd explain this. This really "bugs" me, to be honest.

Bubble Beam
65/20PP/100%
A spray of bubbles is forcefully ejected at the target. This may also lower its Speed stat.

Yeah, looking through the Move Index is fun because you find little patterns like all the beams moved being placed together. At the same time I wish I picked a better method of organizing the moves because then you have situations where we're covering Bubble Beam before Bubble. In fact, I won't be covering Bubble for another 80 or some moves. Weird, huh? I kind of wish like the Pokemon Game Freak organized the moves into a visible numbered 'Dex.

Bubble Beam is the mid-tier Water-type move, and is pretty good all around. Not mind blowing, but at the time of its introduction it was a solid move. It originally had a 1/3 chance of lowering Speed, now 10%, which was a nice bonus. I guess the bubbles are supposed to like slow the Pokemon down, or maybe like the Pokemon is trapped by a bubble? Also Game Freak fucked up and didn't give this move to a single Pokemon in Generation I, it was only available through TM. A lot of Pokemon could learn it through that method, but it's still a weird oversight. They've since gone back and given Generation I Water-type Pokemon the move, and now it's fairly popular as a move for Water-type Pokemon.

This move is embedded in my mind because Dawn's Piplup used this all the time in the show. Specifically I can't get its Japanese name, "Baburu Kousen!", out of my head.
Toxi
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(10-12-2017, 05:52 PM)
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The funny thing is, the Ice type started out strong. Lapras, Cloyster, Jynx, and Articuno were all good Pokemon competitively to some degree. Being weak to Fire and Fighting wasn't a big deal, and the Rock types were also slow Ground types that didn't like to get hit with Blizzard. And being Ice had a great perk: Because Blizzard was so ridiculously overpowered, not being able to be frozen and resisting Ice were great things.

Then Blizzard got nerfed, Fire and Fighting types got a lot better, Rock type attacks appeared everywhere, and the Steel type was introduced. All these things really hurt Ice as a type, and it never really recovered.
Last edited by Toxi; 10-12-2017 at 05:56 PM.
Lebon14
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(10-12-2017, 05:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by TriggerShy

Double Slap

The face Chansey is making is pure gold. LOL
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
(10-12-2017, 05:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by balladofwindfishes

Shooting water out of hooves?

Keldeo? That's pokemon-ifying the concept of a kelpie turning part of its body (legs) into water

unless you mean Squirtle, which is homaging Gamera
balladofwindfishes
(10-12-2017, 06:07 PM)
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Can Keldeo use his legs like a jetpack, Mario Sunshine style?
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
(10-12-2017, 06:14 PM)
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Yeah, I remember in that movie Keldeo flew around on them at parts, did a spinning kapoeria kick, etc.

It kind of made me like the Pokemon a bit more---though that movie's pretty weak. Basically a rehash of the far better Deoxys and Darkrai films, except you see nobody but Ash and co. reacting to Kyurem crashing through the city so it takes away any tension.

I loved the Deoxys movie because it sort of had a horror feel with Deoxys basically showing up and everyone panicking because they had no idea what was going on. The Kyurem film was like, "Oh this giant Ice Pokemon is rampaging through this city...uh, that's bad?"
balladofwindfishes
(10-12-2017, 06:28 PM)
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I'd actually be totally fine with some water Pokemon shooting water out of their hands. I mean, they're shooting gallons of water from nowhere, they can make up where it comes from.



Could easily imagine Poliwhirl shooting water out of his hands so they don't have to awkwardly find a spot on his body to designate is his "mouth" to shoot water from.
WPS
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(10-12-2017, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Watch Da Birdie

Also Game Freak fucked up and didn't give this move to a single Pokemon in Generation I, it was only available through TM. A lot of Pokemon could learn it through that method, but it's still a weird oversight.

I think this was on purpose - most TMs given out by gym leaders have next to nothing learn them naturally, at least when they're first introduced.

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