You're the exact kind of poster that makes SMT fans appear insufferable. You're a running joke at this point if serious.
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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?
- Thread starter Jeffrey
- Start date
You're the exact kind of poster that makes SMT fans appear insufferable. You're a running joke at this point if serious.
Read again, Create a demon/persona with Resist/Repel/Null these elements doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. You switch it in case you encounter Anubis/Girimehkala/Daisoujou or any persona with insta-kill. Any dungeon have a set of enemy, so pay attention to it. Bonus if you already play previous SMT because most of the skillset is similar.
And you're the exact poster that I hate, SMT board across the gaming forum always filled with these type of post, we tried to give you tips and suggestion but it seems you people mind already set in stone on "this is bullshit or this mechanic shouldn't exist". Well you either stick with it or lower the difficulty. SMT punishes you harshly if you are unprepared for anything and if you do not take advantage of the game, it will definitely take advantage of you.
Yeah are many anti-instakill solutions available in-game.
yanipheonu
Member
Safe rooms are pretty consistent. Actually, it'd have been cool if they implemented a Dark Souls style mechanic where if you die, you can try and retrieve the lost experience and money.
But Persona always had the capacity to be cruel. It's a game where you can fuse your way into God Mode, and have a check for any given problem if you're smart, but it means the enemy has some nasty tricks. I'd honestly say it's a Git Gud scenario.
But Persona always had the capacity to be cruel. It's a game where you can fuse your way into God Mode, and have a check for any given problem if you're smart, but it means the enemy has some nasty tricks. I'd honestly say it's a Git Gud scenario.
plz no
Elaugaufein
Member
Yes. But and here's what people don't notice: SMT has a parabolic difficulty, the games are difficult at two points: the beginning when your options are limited and the end when​ you face bosses who are designed around the assumption you have a bunch of stuff. Its the beginning that gets complaints.
Depending on the game and the solutions available that can be a long time for some mechanics. And insta-Kill tends to debut fairly early and not get reliable counters until around the mid 20s (and even then only if you stick to a few very specific persona outside of battle or always get first strike).
Anything but Null or better (or Survival Trick) is always risky too. I've had a Mahamaon "kill" every party member in P4 but I was "lucky" and all it did was use my entire supply of Homunculus (in a single battle with trash mobs).
Its the same issue the fricking Macabre with Blight had in IV, there's just circumstances that will happen unless you never make a mistake where you will die and there's not a thing you can do about it (Blight -> Critical -> Smirk -> Game) (you don't get access to transferable Null Phys until well after your first encounter with those). Which was ameliorated by being able to save anywhere and a mechanic that let you dodge a bad luck death with Charon.
Where are these part in P5? I played and finished the game on Hard. Never notice such problem.
Elaugaufein
Member
Would you like a gold star ?
ShaggsMagoo
Member
On normal difficulty, Persona 5 is not that hard. I would say that there is nothing that approaches the level of vanilla Persona 4's Shadow Yukiko.
Elaugaufein
Member
You may want to specify on Hard for that. Vanilla P4s uses a different AI for hard where Shadow Yukiko breaks out the Combo (and Contrarian King does his Schmuck bait move). In Golden they changed it so that the AI is the same in all difficulties (it's the Hard AI from vanilla) but toned some​ of the encounters (Shadow Yukiko got a weakness, as did Shadow Kanji's minions).
I like it, it adds a layer of strategy during battles because while it makes sense to simply fuse personas with the best stats and use them the most to exploit weaknesses during battles, you never know if letting the enemy get a single turn may result in a game over, so sometimes it's better to equip one with good resistances first before going crazy attacking.
On Hard, I guess. Battles barely make it past your party's first turns on Normal and lower.
This talk always reminds me of Megaten elitists who hate modern Persona because the protagonist is technically invincible if you want him to be and trivializes a lot of the difficulty... Which is sort of true, but mechanics like this are what keep the game from being a snore fest in higher difficulties.
On Hard, I guess. Battles barely make it past your party's first turns on Normal and lower.
This talk always reminds me of Megaten elitists who hate modern Persona because the protagonist is technically invincible if you want him to be and trivializes a lot of the difficulty... Which is sort of true, but mechanics like this are what keep the game from being a snore fest in higher difficulties.
Man the the people freaking about elitism sure are funny, they shout down any defense of a games mechanics while championing their own armchair game design ideas as infallible.
I like this mechanic, as many have said the game provides a plethora of options and skills with which to prevent dying, or losing progress. The safety option exist for a reason folks. Perhaps the people who refuse to use such an option see this as some sort of wounded pride, maybe that's why so many retaliate and jump to accusations of elitism so easily. If a game is too easy for me, I turn up the difficulty, not go on some tirade about how shit the design is, why do others have such issue with doing the opposite?
I like this mechanic, as many have said the game provides a plethora of options and skills with which to prevent dying, or losing progress. The safety option exist for a reason folks. Perhaps the people who refuse to use such an option see this as some sort of wounded pride, maybe that's why so many retaliate and jump to accusations of elitism so easily. If a game is too easy for me, I turn up the difficulty, not go on some tirade about how shit the design is, why do others have such issue with doing the opposite?
Elaugaufein
Member
Because I've played a bunch of games with this mechanic to completion on normal difficulty andill think it sucks. Is that really that hard to believe ? Because a thing is possible with something included doesn't mean it's not better without it.
What I don't understand is why they didn't do like SMTIV does, where it allows the rest of the party members to finish the fight and then restores the MC to 1 HP if the battle is won. Having MC down is still a dangerous state to be in, but at least you are given a chance to survive.
I'm not downplaying criticism, feel free, my own post my have actually come across as the very thing I was railing against. I just can't stand when people aren't actually willing to have a discussion, and treat this forum like the wall of a public bathroom to graffiti on.
AzureFlame
Member
because the game is challenging you
I forgot how to JRPG and got hit with every mechanic including hostage.
Despite that Persona 5 only hit me with Mudo very early on at Kamoshida close to a save, which I see as a deliberate warning shot but not a progress stopper. But the counterplay exist to burn down the mob.
If it is parabolic, the early curve is tuned very carefully for awareness.
C
Contica
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, no. Persona 5 isn't hard or challenging. I know exactly what OT is talking about and it happened to me only a handful of times over 100 hours. It was always some enemy I'd had little to no trouble with before who suddenly manahed to crit me, then get in a follow up attack during the same turn, resulting in my death. Every time it would have been a long time since I was near a safe room, so I lost a lot of time.
This is not about getting good, it's a bullshit mechanic that will only hit you a select few times. No one will lose anything if this is changed.
Elaugaufein
Member
I wouldn't even mind if you got like 1 turn to revive MC. It'd make (Sama)recarm less useless for party members who get it.
Its just such a weird mechanic that makes a bunch of stuff weirdly value asymetrical to me (using Persona weak to Light / Dark is asking for death and being immune to it is far more valuable than other elements, Rez is less useful for party members since they can only use it on half the party, etc).
I suspect it's sort of supposed to compensate for MC power but it just centralizes the MC even more (and the game designers seem to know it looking at how the end game Persona always have a counter to it , easily available).
Idk. It is a bit weird everyone else can be revived but not MC. Makes more sense in, say, Nocturne where the rest of your party is demons, although I also like the way SMT IV handles that with limiting your command versatility upon player death (unless you have certain skills on your monsters).
At the same time...it does help prioritize getting the personas (ingesting the magatama) best suited for a fight on your MC and really once you figure out the demons on a floor the only thing that'll be killing you is bosses. Especially with the option to demand cash if you don't think an all-out attack will clear the enemy. I think it is part and parcel of the main character wild card system.
It would cease to make sense if he played just like the other characters and had a stock Persona.
As to the instant kill moves...they're great. I love that instant kills are actually viable, and really, that's stacked in your favor as the player rather than the AIs. Sure, Anubis was annoying in P5, but Isis is in his same dungeon.
...
What I do hope they change in P6 is I hope they go back to a more P4 like ambush system so it is not sooo easy when you know all the weakness of the enemies/don't have to fumble through conversations to acquire Personas. Could just be new game + talking...
P3 was also really ambush oriented (especially when you can't trust your team-mates) but also nowhere near as easy to pull off as it is in 5, so you got more exciting fights.
Also need to tweak the talk system and the rewards. Clearing battles through demanding money when you can't clear it with an all out attack is OP in P5.
At the same time...it does help prioritize getting the personas (ingesting the magatama) best suited for a fight on your MC and really once you figure out the demons on a floor the only thing that'll be killing you is bosses. Especially with the option to demand cash if you don't think an all-out attack will clear the enemy. I think it is part and parcel of the main character wild card system.
It would cease to make sense if he played just like the other characters and had a stock Persona.
As to the instant kill moves...they're great. I love that instant kills are actually viable, and really, that's stacked in your favor as the player rather than the AIs. Sure, Anubis was annoying in P5, but Isis is in his same dungeon.
...
What I do hope they change in P6 is I hope they go back to a more P4 like ambush system so it is not sooo easy when you know all the weakness of the enemies/don't have to fumble through conversations to acquire Personas. Could just be new game + talking...
P3 was also really ambush oriented (especially when you can't trust your team-mates) but also nowhere near as easy to pull off as it is in 5, so you got more exciting fights.
Also need to tweak the talk system and the rewards. Clearing battles through demanding money when you can't clear it with an all out attack is OP in P5.
If you could get killed in a turn after a one more from crit/weakness from enemy you had no problem with before, you're either doing something really really wrong or you're playing on Hard or Merciless difficulty. You could try to not getting ambushed so you always get the first turn or use guard if you suspect MC might get killed.
Lost a lot of time? You know we played the same game right? There are so many Safe room spread across the dungeon so you probably lost like 30minutes top.
Still can't handle it? Play on Easy, you can change the difficulty whenever you want without any penalty.
To be honest, P5 is probably the easiest compared to other SMT title, you get ton of S.Links abilities like teammates can guard you from certain death, status ailments can be cured by teammates without wasting turn, random chances of knockdown, gun special moves, Futaba always warned you when Boss is about to unleash their special moves, position hack, and so many more I don't even know where to start.
Other title like Nocturne or DDS doesn't have that kinda of handholding and the game doesn't give a fuck about you. You either win or you learn.
No-one will miss anything apart from the possibilty of anything remotely challenging happening.
Im almost finished with my first playthrough and i can count on one hand the times ive been killed.
Each time wasn't bullshit. It was a learning experience first lesson was always get the drop, the second was remember to use your guard, third was sometimes its better to waste sp to be sure the enemy dies before they get a turn, especially against enemies with robust one shot kills or access to numerous elements.
Without preparing for one shots (and weakness/crits) and ambushing there would be almost no challenge to the combat apart from sp management.
You bumped a month+ old thread to rub out your love for SMT, please. There's been so many bullshit mechanics that lingered waaaay too long is this series [such as random skill- inheritance, but you can reroll] and they're better for being gone, it's no wonder the series struggles to grow. ffs, you're still bringing up Matador, it's like you actually have a textbook. This isn't a 'difficulty' thing no matter how much you want it to be.
I don't even pay attention that this thread is a month old before I posted, it's on my subscription list and I don't post earlier because I'm trying to avoid spoiler (just finished P5 recently). But you seem to care enough to check the posted date so you can argue to fit your armchair game mechanic.
This series is growing just fine alright, P5 is the best selling title in the series history. While I agree that there are still plenty room for improvement like for example random skill inheritance (this is fixed in P5). But there is nothing wrong with the difficulty or the insta-kill spell. And MC died=game over should definitely stay in Persona series.
Skill inheritance was fixed for P4G five years ago.
What alternate reality are you living in?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=237392097&postcount=339
What alternate reality are you living in?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=237392097&postcount=339
One of the worst things in video games today, the otherwise flawless Shining Force series suffer from this too.
Why the hell would your teammates and army mates succumb when one person dies, even if its the leader? Did Napolean's troops just wither and give up when he died? Did the same happen for Alexander the Great's troops?
In Final Fantasy, you can revive the MC if that person dies.....why the heck would that not happen in say Persona 3-5.
And this is coming from someone who has played and loves the likes of SMT Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga, Strange Journey, SMT IV, Devil Summoner 2, Devil Survivor 1, and the Persona games.
Why the hell would your teammates and army mates succumb when one person dies, even if its the leader? Did Napolean's troops just wither and give up when he died? Did the same happen for Alexander the Great's troops?
In Final Fantasy, you can revive the MC if that person dies.....why the heck would that not happen in say Persona 3-5.
And this is coming from someone who has played and loves the likes of SMT Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga, Strange Journey, SMT IV, Devil Summoner 2, Devil Survivor 1, and the Persona games.
Because in Persona 5 the MC can (and should) overpower his team very early, both in defense and attack. The other Megaten games where the MC dies != end over just happen to don't allow the MC can overcome enemies attacks that easily.
I am just arguing from a standpoint that why would the teammates lay down and play possum when the "leader" dies and would not just crown someone new as a leader or say even revive them.
Thankfully these games have the ability if you boost up your social link where someone can bite the bullet for you but that's absolutely random and it is a later link so I can see the point of this being a problem early on.
Why? Give me a solid answer as to why the game would suffer without the ability to rez the MC with a rez item. Seriously, something other than "It's a SMT thing." I've been playing this shit since P2 on the PS One, I get the SMT vibe.
I get if the party is wiped, or you don't rez him before the fight ends or whatever. Losing X amount of time playing from a one-shot you couldn't avoid due to the roll of the dice is frustrating and needs to go.
Hell, the game itself doesn't even kill any party members but the MC, everyone else is just knocked out!
PulseONE
Member
As others have said, the MC is incredibly OP compared to the other characters, especially with late game Persona, many of whom have zero weaknesses
I admit there are times when it felt kind of unfair, like one time I was ambushed and my entire team got brainwashed (those manta ray looking enemies), but it was uncommon enough that I kept pushing through
Being cautious in a dungeon and not getting jumped is an important part of gameplay, once you get the first move most battles are easy af (not counting bosses of course)
I admit there are times when it felt kind of unfair, like one time I was ambushed and my entire team got brainwashed (those manta ray looking enemies), but it was uncommon enough that I kept pushing through
Being cautious in a dungeon and not getting jumped is an important part of gameplay, once you get the first move most battles are easy af (not counting bosses of course)
ThatStupidLion
Member
I mean i was taken a back as well initialy, but its a balancig mechanic i feel or else hed be too OP... also makes you prioritize protecting mc at all costs which focuses the battle gameplay a bit
Because it'd make random battles almost impossible to lose unless you're out of reviving skills/items? Getting one shot is extremely rare unless it's an insta kill move, and those have a fair share of methods to avoid them. Other than that, getting killed in a single turn will almost always be result of a mistake you made, in which case it's only fair you get a penalty.
Personally I enjoy this. Sure it doesn't make much sense in-universe, but it helps balance the game. The game is designed so you can ALWAYS get ambushes, makes party members take fatal attacks in your place if you have ranked them up, let's you equip personas that can nullify any element you desire, etc etc. So I find making sure to kill enemies ASAP and making sure I buff my MC to avoid him getting killed fun, and I don't want it out because other players don't make good use of these tools.
enoki
Member
It's taken to another level in 5, even. There are so many new social link abilities that are practically game-breaking.
That aside, MC can use endure, party members can take a fatal blow, you can freely change your persona to nullify insta-kill, etc... there are so many (easy!) options to avoid dying that I've never considered it an issue in any SMT game.
I have a strong feeling the designers did it for reasons of consistency/believability/realism/story then for gameplay reasons. That is, in the Persona 5 you literally play and ONLY play the main character. Unlike other rpgs where you're kind of controlling multiple people, in Persona 5 you're only controlling ONE person. This is seen from the fact that members don't perfectly follow you and that when you select to directly control them in battle it's said that the MC is given commands so you're still playing the MC but the MC is telling others what to do.
So therefore, when MC "dies"(I guess) how can you play the game? It's over. You can't tell the others what to do when you're dead.
YES, I know that the other could just revive you, but................. I dunno it's just Video Game Logic I guess.
So therefore, when MC "dies"(I guess) how can you play the game? It's over. You can't tell the others what to do when you're dead.
YES, I know that the other could just revive you, but................. I dunno it's just Video Game Logic I guess.
I guess I'm lucky enough to have never been cheap shotted by a mudo/hama instant kill spell. It's happened to my party members, but always misses when they target my MC or a homunculus takes the hit. So much so that I questioned whether the game would even actually one shot your main character with those spells.
I think I've had the ideal experience where mudo/hama targets the protag and I go "fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck... ... THANK GOD", and then take that enemy out.
That would suck to lose a lot of progress to that, though.
I think I've had the ideal experience where mudo/hama targets the protag and I go "fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck... ... THANK GOD", and then take that enemy out.
That would suck to lose a lot of progress to that, though.
I simply remembered this thread existing.
I was talking about SMT because you brought up SMT.
SMT
enoki
Member
You've opened a can of worms that can't be resealed.
I'm not even gonna bother with it.
Finished the game. Really only the early game where I died from randoms (on normal).
Once you get party members to block fatal blows and once you can start fusing nonsense after maxing strength, nothing matters...which really is the issue imo.
If Mc being threatened by death is a constant thing I can justify an unfair mechanic, but when the game balance disagrees with this, things just get muddled and having a random 'hardcore' mechanic in a casual game just feels off.
Once you get party members to block fatal blows and once you can start fusing nonsense after maxing strength, nothing matters...which really is the issue imo.
If Mc being threatened by death is a constant thing I can justify an unfair mechanic, but when the game balance disagrees with this, things just get muddled and having a random 'hardcore' mechanic in a casual game just feels off.
The problem is that Normal difficulty is way too easy to the point that there's nearly no sense of challenge once you get access to all tools of survival, I've complained about this in other P5 threads but this difficulty setting being the default one does a disservice to the game's systems because you don't even need to use them all to get through the game.
Hard mode is challenging enough that there's danger in all battles through the entire game, but it's still easy enough to avoid death in most situations unless you're being careless or make mistakes. At one point random battles stop being possible to finish in just one round for the most part, so you're forced to make constant use of buffs and baton pass to get rid of particularly dangerous demons faster, and the MC penalty never feels out of place and there's a clear synergy between it and the other machanics, it's great.
(And no, this is in no way a jab at people who don't play on hard, I'm just disappointed they made Normal so easy because it makes the palace gameplay feel mindless and barebones)
Hard mode is challenging enough that there's danger in all battles through the entire game, but it's still easy enough to avoid death in most situations unless you're being careless or make mistakes. At one point random battles stop being possible to finish in just one round for the most part, so you're forced to make constant use of buffs and baton pass to get rid of particularly dangerous demons faster, and the MC penalty never feels out of place and there's a clear synergy between it and the other machanics, it's great.
(And no, this is in no way a jab at people who don't play on hard, I'm just disappointed they made Normal so easy because it makes the palace gameplay feel mindless and barebones)
While some of the points he makes come off a bit snooty, he isn't wrong with the core point he is making.
SMT is all about adapting to what you are up against. Boss battles in SMT are (mostly) not a show of force, they are a puzzle. Persona for the most part is no exception.
Regarding the OP, that mechanic does make sense, however at the same time I get the argument against it. However you have to adapt to it. If you end up with the choice of reviving Ann when the enemy is weak to fire, or healing Joker when he is below 25% HP, you heal Joker. It's that simple.
The random battles are already almost impossible to lose at it is. The ONLY time I've lost fights against randoms is when something like this happens: "Oh here's a new enemy, I didn't find their weakness round one, and it survived aaaaaand Joker happens to be weak to their elemental attack/Instakill Spell and now I lost 30 minutes. Wooooo." Joker's never died because of my inattention to his HP, or knowing what the Shadow is gonna attack with and forgetting to change persona from something weak to it.
This isn't game breaking for me or anything, but the combat in Persona is what I tolerate to get to the story, because standard enemy fights are forgettable.
Even if you want to go with bullshit like Persona franchise isn't part of MegaTen, its Main series also sell pretty well and seems to always have a high score in a review. SMT series is also one of the only few JRPG franchise that is still going strong and consistent.
But I figured you just don't have legs to hold your ground with that kind of response.
And even when you can't kill them in one turn you can clear them by talking at no great cost, especially if you crit on the money demand.
Combat gets interesting when you don't know weaknesses or when you are jonesing to get a persona to join you and talks go south.
Well, the first 2 dungeons are harder comparatively speaking to the later ones. A lot of people had troubles with the second dungeon boss, for example.
The game definitely gets easier as you unlock more and better tools. The game has more than enough tools to avoid insta-kills, including an active Skill that protects the party from those kind of spells.
I understand the complains but, at the same time, it didn't really bother me that much. I think it makes sense to a degree and is the way the devs have come up to "balance" the MC. He is a character that can use multiple Personas. So the amount of tools at his disposal are much, much bigger than the rest of the cast.
Having a Game Over screen if he dies forces the player to use their head and be a bit more conservative than they would otherwise. It's the prize to pay for being the Wild Card imo. High risk high reward I'd say.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Oh. In that case, you wouldn't mind an instant restart at the beginning of a battle on death option, because it would never be used if these problems don't exist. Perfect.
Absolutely have no clue why you are talking about SMT when it is a spinoff of the main and more prestigious franchise that is known globally as Persona.