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Astarte · Jul 24, 2017

FreeMeal said:
Here's some JoJo ASB:

Bruno VS Giorno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPOYnzL5N-4

Girono: Giorno's play-style revolves around playing a strong neutral game and building as much meter a possible. He's basically a ticking time-bomb until he gets 3 bars, combos into super, which guarantees a successful transformation into Gold Experience Requiem. GER has an unblockable, fast moving projectile that crumples the opponent, allowing GER to use his Morrigan-like air dash to chase them down and combo. GER also has the ability to control the opponent's soul, bringing back the will behind their actions back to 'point zero'. Basically, he can use a move that combo breaks practically everything and gives a free combo. This can be done in the air as a set-up, or be used as a combo extender. If you're at 70% health and Giorno gets GER, there's a good chance you loose. Unlike Pucci, Giorno can pull off his transformation every round, if he's good enough. Other tricks include: A dive kick that propels Giorno backwards, a tree that's invincible on start-up and acts as a double jump, and turning his brooches into animals that can be converted into air-tight set-ups by using meter.

Bruno: Bruno has crazy movement in stand-off, using his zipper slides and teleports to fling himself around the stage. TK'd zipper arm is a super-annoying poke that's largely safe and covers jumping. Does good damage on counter-hit. He's just a very solid, safe character that has lots of annoying pokes, and can do 60% with 2 bars of meter.

hey

i appreciate you

ZelbZelb · Jul 24, 2017

Astarte said:
hey

i appreciate you

Aw, thanks. Sometimes I have to wait a while so more content can be released. I try to be picky as I know you guys have high standards. I should be good for the next few weeks.

I actually streamed the game today, but not a single person was playing. Online is pretty much 100% dead unless you set a play-date with someone on Discord.

mamoniadas · Jul 24, 2017

Seyavesh said:
the crossup protection isn't that strong, thankfully. like dante's box jump normals will get blocked by it but most other kinds of airdash crossups are still super ambiguous. morrigan's mvc3 airdash type crossover j.H/HP stuff is still present and really strong! zero doing st.lp->teleport->buster still works as a mixup as well so that kinda stuff is still in the game if other chars have moves like that as well.

up/down dash in the same vein as nova still works for high/lows as mixup for 8way airdashers too, it's literally just airdash downforward and downback that have the higher height restriction on normals

supposedly captain marvel doesn't have the height restriction on her normals as well but i can't really verify it since i didn't play her but that's what folks are saying.

hmm ok, seeing footage of how dynamic the tagging system can be seemed like it's going to be a left/right mixup game like mvc3 was. So the crossup protection system seemed weird.

sixteen-bit · Jul 24, 2017

Do you think Nintendo will patch Smash on WiiU again? Maybe they can use a rebalancing to entice double dippers on Switch.

Tizoc · Jul 24, 2017

Line_HTX · Jul 24, 2017

Did they really have a whole giant list of patch notes for Bayonetta?

LucidMomentum · Jul 24, 2017

Line_HTX said:
Did they really have a whole giant list of patch notes for Bayonetta?

It wasn't giant by Nintendo standards, but a whole patch was dedicated just to her, yes.

https://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-6-patch-notes-patch-discussion.436806/

NEO0MJ · Jul 24, 2017

sixteen-bit said:
Do you think Nintendo will patch Smash on WiiU again? Maybe they can use a rebalancing to entice double dippers on Switch.

I wouldn't be too surprised considering they did more than a few changes to MK8 when they released Deluxe.

Karsticles · Jul 24, 2017

Line_HTX said:
Did they really have a whole giant list of patch notes for Bayonetta?

Yeah. Basically, her Witch Time dodge was really OP because it had no diminishing returns (you could spam it and get lucky KOs when you got the guess right), and she could combo people from 0 -> death in certain situations. Pretty much everyone died to two of her combos. She was pretty broken on release.

Cosmo Clock 21 · Jul 24, 2017

when your guessies are too messies

sixteen-bit · Jul 24, 2017

Bayonetta being strong is just an adherence to the lore. Blessed Sakurai.

Professor Beef · Jul 24, 2017

I spent 3 whole days learning her OHKO setups, and then Nintendo patched the shit out. :|

NEO0MJ · Jul 24, 2017

Karsticles said:
Yeah. Basically, her Witch Time dodge was really OP because it had no diminishing returns (you could spam it and get lucky KOs when you got the guess right), and she could combo people from 0 -> death in certain situations. Pretty much everyone died to two of her combos. She was pretty broken on release.

What's funny is that at the time people said that they ruined her after those nerfs. Now they're complaining that she's broken XD

LucidMomentum · Jul 24, 2017

sixteen-bit said:
Bayonetta being strong is just an adherence to the lore. Blessed Sakurai.

NEO0MJ said:
What's funny is that at the time people said that they ruined her after those nerfs. Now they're complaining that she's broken XD

Exactly lol.

Seeing my boy Bowser at EVO was fun though.

Dahbomb · Jul 24, 2017

mamoniadas said:
hmm ok, seeing footage of how dynamic the tagging system can be seemed like it's going to be a left/right mixup game like mvc3 was. So the crossup protection system seemed weird.

The cross up protection is probably for those ambiguous "not cross up cross ups" that Marvel 3 had a lot of. Stuff like Haggar getting under you, using Violent Axe which hit you from behind but Haggar was still in front of you in the corner.

FSLink · Jul 24, 2017

NEO0MJ said:
What's funny is that at the time people said that they ruined her after those nerfs. Now they're complaining that she's broken XD

Yep, I already was watching ikep on Twitter at the time, and I'm pretty sure most of the combos ikep was doing pre-patch are basically standard now.

For as strong as the Japanese meta is in Smash a lot of the playerbase seems to ignore it exists and don't study footage. As soon as I saw ikep play post-patch Bayo I knew she'd be fine.

sixteen-bit said:
Do you think Nintendo will patch Smash on WiiU again? Maybe they can use a rebalancing to entice double dippers on Switch.

They actually just patched it last week! But only for amiibo support for Corrin (Cloud and Bayo already worked). They could have easily threw in a balance patch in there but I think the dev team is pretty satisfied with the balance at the moment. I wouldn't expect any changes for Smash 4 unless a Switch version comes out.

Professor Beef · Jul 24, 2017

NEO0MJ said:
What's funny is that at the time people said that they ruined her after those nerfs. Now they're complaining that she's broken XD

Honestly I was one of them complaining she had her knees cut off, but yeah it's clear she's still fine. If I ever get the free time (and money) to go to tournaments again, I should try picking her up for Charizard's bad matches.

Zissou · Jul 24, 2017

sixteen-bit said:
Y'all yeah about Fantasy Strike?
Thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DOtyseKkIc

I've played quite a bit of it. It's got probably the lowest barrier to entry possible for something that still plays like a traditional fighting game, and I've enjoyed it so far (I've probably sunk 40 or 50 hours into it at this point, mostly local vs, and some online recently which the newest build introduced). It has some smart ideas- that they've found ways to have one button specials with invincibility that don't destroy the game is pretty amazing IMO, and the moves are so multipurpose that it offsets some of the complexity lost due to smaller movesets relative to other fighting games. From a gameplay perspective, there are some issues that could arise, and I'm curious how they'll handle them. I don't know that the game will have a high enough skill ceiling to make it interesting for long term tournament play, and there doesn't seem like there's enough to any given character to allow a player's personality/playstyle to shine through. The ease with which you can learn a character is also potentially a double edged sword- it makes the game extremely approachable, but if played in more competitive context, I can see the losing player counter picking after every single match. Not gameplay related, but the complaints about being too overt in its use of movesets from other games are pretty hard to argue against. Ultimately, the game does accomplish what I assume to be its main goal, which is making the actual strategy and decision-making of playing and enjoying fighting games immediately accessible to anybody.

Line_HTX · Jul 24, 2017

Can't wait for Morrigan with the Time Stone to be optimized, heh heh heh

Belker · Jul 24, 2017

Zissou said:
Ultimately, the game does accomplish what I assume to be its main goal, which is making the actual strategy and decision-making of playing and enjoying fighting games immediately accessible to anybody.

First, I like your SFV videos.

Second, I think Sirlin's goal is more about making everything work in service of the mindgame, with the mindgame being easily accessible almost being a side-effect of that.

I've never played at a high level, but from my understanding, the better you get, the less execution becomes a factor. So then it's mindgames again.

If there's any truth to that, how could it be made interesting for long-term tournament play? More moves, more characters. What's the mechanical change?

You've played it, I haven't. You can give me an insight I wouldn't have otherwise.

katsubento · Jul 24, 2017

Line_HTX said:
Can't wait for Morrigan with the Time Stone to be optimized, heh heh heh

Damn.

LucidMomentum · Jul 24, 2017

Line_HTX said:
Can't wait for Morrigan with the Time Stone to be optimized, heh heh heh

Yo

AaaaaAAAAAaaaAAAA

Not sure if I like this or not

Parallax Scroll · Jul 24, 2017

Line_HTX said:
Can't wait for Morrigan with the Time Stone to be optimized, heh heh heh

As soon as the time stone was first shown, ChrisG tweeted that he's going to do exactly this.

Karsticles · Jul 24, 2017

Line_HTX said:
Can't wait for Morrigan with the Time Stone to be optimized, heh heh heh

I can't wait for scrubs online to complain after this kills them because they refuse to be patient and block for a small period of time.

sixteen-bit · Jul 24, 2017

Parallax Scroll said:
As soon as the time stone was first shown, ChrisG tweeted that he's going to do exactly this.

Thanks for keeping up abreast of that racist's pre-release meta.

Parallax Scroll · Jul 24, 2017

sixteen-bit said:
Thanks for keeping up abreast of that racist's pre-release meta.

No prob

Dahbomb · Jul 24, 2017

Karsticles said:
I can't wait for scrubs online to complain after this kills them because they refuse to be patient and block for a small period of time.

Scrubs gonna have a lot to complain about in this game.

There's going to be a lot of "holy my shit" in Marvel Infinite.

Zissou · Jul 24, 2017

Belker said:
First, I like your SFV videos.

Second, I think Sirlin's goal is more about making everything work in service of the mindgame, with the mindgame being easily accessible almost being a side-effect of that.

I've never played at a high level, but from my understanding, the better you get, the less execution becomes a factor. So then it's mindgames again.

If there's any truth to that, how could it be made interesting for long-term tournament play? More moves, more characters. What's the mechanical change?

You've played it, I haven't. You can give me an insight I wouldn't have otherwise.

Thanks for the compliment on the videos. "Mind games" is a pretty nebulous term IMO, but I think the game certainly tests reading and conditioning your opponent, spacing, reactions, knowledge of frame advantage etc., just the same as other fighting games. The thing is, even with my worry about the skill ceiling, I don't think should try and add things to the game- anything that you add/change could jeopardize the game's design goals. I've personally got at least one person very interested in getting into more complex games through fantasy strike, and the other people I've shown it to responded positively (even if they're not ever going to play guilty gear or whatever). If sirlin can convince people to give it a chance, I think the game can absolutely be a gateway drug to other games with higher barriers to entry. A big hurdle is that while I agree with lots of Sirlin's thinking on game design, he needs people to help him with marketing/PR and such. Based on how the crowd funding campaign is going, he's going to need some luck/help if he's going to make this work.

pizzacat · Jul 24, 2017

Astarte said:
hey

i appreciate you

:3

ZelbZelb · Jul 24, 2017

pizzacat said:
:3

Next time I'll show a cool Valentine video I found. I'll see if there's some Yoshikage stuff, too.

Numb · Jul 25, 2017

Line_HTX said:
Can't wait for Morrigan with the Time Stone to be optimized, heh heh heh

Boolit!

Belker · Jul 25, 2017

Zissou said:
Thanks for the compliment on the videos. "Mind games" is a pretty nebulous term IMO, but I think the game certainly tests reading and conditioning your opponent, spacing, reactions, knowledge of frame advantage etc., just the same as other fighting games. The thing is, even with my worry about the skill ceiling, I don't think should try and add things to the game- anything that you add/change could jeopardize the game's design goals. I've personally got at least one person very interested in getting into more complex games through fantasy strike, and the other people I've shown it to responded positively (even if they're not ever going to play guilty gear or whatever). If sirlin can convince people to give it a chance, I think the game can absolutely be a gateway drug to other games with higher barriers to entry. A big hurdle is that while I agree with lots of Sirlin's thinking on game design, he needs people to help him with marketing/PR and such. Based on how the crowd funding campaign is going, he's going to need some luck/help if he's going to make this work.

Youre right that mindgames is a bit nebulous. But you summarised it nicely by talking about reading and conditioning your opponent.

I think Im having trouble with the idea that weve got a game that purports to give people an easier way to experience that pure aspect of fighting games.

Yet, youve played it a lot and you feel its could be a gateway game to more complex titles. Which kind of means players starting on a path again to get to that pure aspect.

Its something Im not quite able to compute yet.

Im thinking aloud, but I wonder if mindgames arent as rewarding if we havent had to work to implement them barrier to entry - or there arent enough different options to give us interesting choices and to allow us to feel like we can be creative in how we play.

Parallax Scroll · Jul 25, 2017

Belker said:
Youre right that mindgames is a bit nebulous. But you summarised it nicely by talking about reading and conditioning your opponent.

I think Im having trouble with the idea that weve got a game that purports to give people an easier way to experience that pure aspect of fighting games.

Yet, youve played it a lot and you feel its could be a gateway game to more complex titles. Which kind of means players starting on a path again to get to that pure aspect.

Its something Im not quite able to compute yet.

Im thinking aloud, but I wonder if mindgames arent as rewarding if we havent had to work to implement them barrier to entry - or there arent enough different options to give us interesting choices and to allow us to feel like we can be creative in how we play.

It's worth trying. Props to Sirlin for that.

Anne · Jul 25, 2017

Real talk tho, fuck David Sirlin. He's a hack that doesn't deserve to be working on more games.

pizzacat · Jul 25, 2017

FreeMeal said:
Next time I'll show a cool Valentine video I found. I'll see if there's some Yoshikage stuff, too.

JusDoIt · Jul 25, 2017

Anne said:
Real talk tho, fuck David Sirlin. He's a hack that doesn't deserve to be working on more games.

He's no hack. He made Chess II. It expanded the playable characters from two to eight, featured four bosses, combos, and special moves!

Belker · Jul 25, 2017

Anne said:
Real talk tho, fuck David Sirlin. He's a hack that doesn't deserve to be working on more games.

Disclaimer - I interviewed the man and still drop him email occasionally, though I don't track his every move.

Obviously you don't care for him, but I'm a bit confused about your statement about not 'deserving' to work on games.

He's developed and published games himself and is trying to crowdfund other ones. As much as we might dislike someone's work, if they find way to fund projects from their own efforts and people willing to invest (who get what's promised) I'm not sure what deserving has to do with it.

At that point we have to vote with our wallets; we show who we believe is deserving by giving them money, or not. Really, that's the only way we have to pass judgement on someone's work.

EDIT

People's thoughts on his game design philosophy and choices aside, has he failed to deliver on projects? Not a trick question, I don't know if he has or not.

broz0rs · Jul 25, 2017

it's surprising to see peeps still rail on Sirlin. I mean, the only substantial thing that he's done in the FGC was take a legendary but old game and attempted to balance it. He patted himself on the back a bit too much, but this is so damn long ago. All his other stuff, you can't really fault a man for trying out stuff.

mamoniadas · Jul 25, 2017

CCC vol 2.

Dahbomb · Jul 25, 2017

Anne said:
Real talk tho, fuck David Sirlin. He's a hack that doesn't deserve to be working on more games.

Let the hustler hustle man.

CO_Andy · Jul 25, 2017

lol at Japan's measly $895 esports prize money

895... wasn't that the Canada Cup subscription fee?

Parallax Scroll · Jul 25, 2017

broz0rs said:
He patted himself on the back a bit too much

I think this is a major factor. People tend to be more critical of someone if they do that.

CO_Andy said:
lol at Japan's measly $895 esports prize money

895... wasn't that the Canada Cup subscription fee?

$8.95 yeah

Rice-Eater · Jul 25, 2017

CO_Andy said:
lol at Japan's measly $895 esports prize money

895... wasn't that the Canada Cup subscription fee?

What Japanese tournament is paying out $895? It's normally nothing, so this is pretty good progress.

This does however make me think about what EVO Japan's prize is going to be. Like do you really get nothing more than a trophy and a pat on the back for winning a 1,000+ man Tekken or SFV tourney?

CO_Andy · Jul 25, 2017

Rice-Eater said:
What Japanese tournament is paying out $895? It's normally nothing, so this is pretty good progress.

This does however make me think about what EVO Japan's prize is going to be. Like do you really get nothing more than a trophy and a pat on the back for winning a 1,000+ man Tekken or SFV tourney?

It's the maximum amount a single person can win at a tournament --
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1410769

NEO0MJ · Jul 25, 2017

Rice-Eater said:
What Japanese tournament is paying out $895? It's normally nothing, so this is pretty good progress.

This does however make me think about what EVO Japan's prize is going to be. Like do you really get nothing more than a trophy and a pat on the back for winning a 1,000+ man Tekken or SFV tourney?

In the end we play for fun, nothing more. We shouldn't need monetary incentive to join a tournament.

mnz · Jul 25, 2017

NEO0MJ said:
In the end we play for fun, nothing more. We shouldn't need monetary incentive to join a tournament.

Well, most people do. A few want to make a living off of it.
But that really shouldn't be the main focus, so who cares.

Parallax Scroll · Jul 25, 2017

CO_Andy said:
It's the maximum amount a single person can win at a tournament --
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1410769

It's seriously $895 lmao

KidA Seven · Jul 25, 2017

Rice-Eater said:
What Japanese tournament is paying out $895? It's normally nothing, so this is pretty good progress.

This does however make me think about what EVO Japan's prize is going to be. Like do you really get nothing more than a trophy and a pat on the back for winning a 1,000+ man Tekken or SFV tourney?

Plus Japan usually has more entrants for team tournaments so Evo Japan is interesting to me for those two reasons. I want to see how it affects entrants.

sixteen-bit · Jul 25, 2017

let the 895 memes flow

mnz · Jul 25, 2017

This GGPO EVO panel doesn't have enough views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9JTIn1SVQ4

Especially the part starting at 19min with a good explanation of how rollback netcode works, which a lot of people still don't understand.

Later on (around 31:20) there is an explanation about "the rift", a problem SFV has.

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