Just like Nolan Patrick!
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
NHL Off-Season 2017 |OT| Weve Been Here Since October
- Thread starter Fata1moose
- Start date
Just like Nolan Patrick!
MacKenzie is just another dude with an opinion, to be fair. And he has less experience than proper scouts.Well both Virtanen and Fleury were ahead of Nylander and Ehlers on Bobby Macs final list as well
The failure of Virtanen to break into pro hockey has surprised even his doubters, I'd guess. He was thought to have an easier transition than most since he skates well and has good size. Unfortunately he's just lost out there.
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Been reading a lot lately about the draft, around the internet and then circling back here, and I've seen a couple people lamenting how this draft is supposed to be terrible and that Vancouver, Colorado, and Las Vegas got fucked over and lost out on the only good players. I disagree.
The thing about this draft in comparison to others is that while Hirschier and Patrick are legit good talents, they project to be #1 forwards in the vein of a Bergeron/Kopitar/Giroux versus legitimate generational talents like McDavid/Crosby, let alone superstars like Kane/Stamkos/Matthews (who may be closer to that McD/Cros group tbh).
The talent is there in this draft, and the top-10 (maybe top-15) should have several players that develop into top line guys, but there isn't that super high end guy anywhere.
At least so far. Obviously you'll get a Benn or whatever somewhere that'll come out of nowhere in the 4th or 5th but that's so hard to project.
I've seen a couple people calling it a weak draft - far from it. We as fans have been a bit spoiled by the last few drafts having those high end guys in McDavid, Matthews, Laine, Eichel, Ekblad, and so on that are basically first line players right from the jump. This draft won't have that. Patrick and Nico are going to be 2nd liners at best for a year or two, maybe even more.
Vancouver and Avalanche got fucked (Avalanche rightfully so sorry Moose and 19) but they're still going to get great players. Mittelstadt is going to be a great, great player for one of those teams if they're smart about it. I'd rather it be Vancouver so they can play him with Boeser way out west where I don't have to lose to them as often, but even if the Avalanche take him I'll be happy.
Suzuki, Makar, Glass, Vilardi, Rasmussen are all guys who can make impacts eventually. Probably not this year, probably not next, but 2-3 years down the line they'll definitely be legitimate threats.
Guys expected to go in the middle or end of the 1st should be great as well. Got a bit of hometown bias but Ryan Poehling already did well in college before the draft. He should become a very good top six player for whatever team is lucky enough to pick him. I hope the Wild can somehow trade back into the 1st to take him, though I doubt they will. Then you've also got guys like Tolvanen, Foote, and Ratcliffe that should be good.
It's a draft that has a lot more question marks than the last few, but by no means is it a bad or even below-average draft, I don't think. We've just had four out of the last five drafts that were either above-average or great, depending on how you look at them.
I can make exceptions based on forgetfulness.
Don't show up in Blues propaganda and I'll conveniently forget how I should dislike you.
The thing about this draft in comparison to others is that while Hirschier and Patrick are legit good talents, they project to be #1 forwards in the vein of a Bergeron/Kopitar/Giroux versus legitimate generational talents like McDavid/Crosby, let alone superstars like Kane/Stamkos/Matthews (who may be closer to that McD/Cros group tbh).
The talent is there in this draft, and the top-10 (maybe top-15) should have several players that develop into top line guys, but there isn't that super high end guy anywhere.
At least so far. Obviously you'll get a Benn or whatever somewhere that'll come out of nowhere in the 4th or 5th but that's so hard to project.
I've seen a couple people calling it a weak draft - far from it. We as fans have been a bit spoiled by the last few drafts having those high end guys in McDavid, Matthews, Laine, Eichel, Ekblad, and so on that are basically first line players right from the jump. This draft won't have that. Patrick and Nico are going to be 2nd liners at best for a year or two, maybe even more.
Vancouver and Avalanche got fucked (Avalanche rightfully so sorry Moose and 19) but they're still going to get great players. Mittelstadt is going to be a great, great player for one of those teams if they're smart about it. I'd rather it be Vancouver so they can play him with Boeser way out west where I don't have to lose to them as often, but even if the Avalanche take him I'll be happy.
Suzuki, Makar, Glass, Vilardi, Rasmussen are all guys who can make impacts eventually. Probably not this year, probably not next, but 2-3 years down the line they'll definitely be legitimate threats.
Guys expected to go in the middle or end of the 1st should be great as well. Got a bit of hometown bias but Ryan Poehling already did well in college before the draft. He should become a very good top six player for whatever team is lucky enough to pick him. I hope the Wild can somehow trade back into the 1st to take him, though I doubt they will. Then you've also got guys like Tolvanen, Foote, and Ratcliffe that should be good.
It's a draft that has a lot more question marks than the last few, but by no means is it a bad or even below-average draft, I don't think. We've just had four out of the last five drafts that were either above-average or great, depending on how you look at them.
Congrats on the house Fubar, even if I'm banned from your BBQ :'(
I can make exceptions based on forgetfulness.
Don't show up in Blues propaganda and I'll conveniently forget how I should dislike you.
I don't recall teams trading players in their early and mid 20s for draft picks, so I'm not sure what your point is. Obviousky trading away young, developing talent in order to tank is beyond stupid. Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, without their buried contracts they wouldn't have even hit the cap floor.This is the ridiculous assertion that the Leafs out and out just tanked. They had Bozak, JVR, Kadri, Komarov, Rielly, Gardiner all on the team who are still there. Jvr got hurt Midway through the season which helped the Leafs not score many goals, Kadri didn't score 30, Bozak wasn't​ so good. Not like the Leafs just iced minor league players.
And yeah they traded guys for picks like any rebuilding team. Reimer was gonna be a UFA were we supposed to keep him and get no return at all?
And I understand about Reimer but the return was weak (Ben Smith? A conditional 4th?) and it knowingly made the Leafs that much worse. To me, that always seemed more 'tank' than 'rebuild', but to each their own.
I don't recall teams trading players in their early and mid 20s for draft picks, so I'm not sure what your point is. Obviousky trading away young, developing talent in order to tank is beyond stupid. Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, without their buried contracts they wouldn't have even hit the cap floor.
And I understand about Reimer but the return was weak (Ben Smith? A conditional 4th?) and it knowingly made the Leafs that much worse. To me, that always seemed more 'tank' than 'rebuild', but to each their own.
What part of UFA don't you get? Reimer would have been lost for 0, so that 4th is actually worth something. They also had PA Parrenteau, Grabner on the team. Compare that to the Sabres who traded both their goalies in the same season whenever one started to win.
With all that tanking the Leafs did, it's a wonder they weren't the worst team in the league in goals for or goals against last year. Their goal differential for last season was also better than the Canucks this season.
Despite all the accusations of tanking, they iced a run of the mill bad team that you see every season, and not a historically bad outfit. At least the Leafs were in games thanks to Babcock's system.
Can't believe people are denying the Leafs tanked for Matthews
The Leafs didn't do everything possible to finish last, unlike​ both Buffalo and Arizona in 2015.
They didn't do everything possible, but they still actively ranked. No shame in it, it worked out for them.The Leafs didn't do everything possible to finish last, unlike​ both Buffalo and Arizona in 2015.
They didn't do everything possible, but they still actively ranked. No shame in it, it worked out for them.
Yeah, like every season you have 5-6 teams that are bad. What else could the Leafs have done, played Marner a year too early, brought up Nylander to expose him to a bottom finish? They chose​ to let their young guys get another season of development, trade away established players for more picks and it worked out perfectly. That's what happens when you have good management as opposed to Marc BargainBin.
They tanked and it worked out perfectly, and yes, Bergevin should have done the same once it was obvious Price wasn't coming back.Yeah, like every season you have 5-6 teams that are bad. What else could the Leafs have done, played Marner a year too early, brought up Nylander to expose him to a bottom finish? They chose​ to let their young guys get another season of development, trade away established players for more picks and it worked out perfectly. That's what happens when you have good management as opposed to Marc BargainBin.
They tanked and it worked out perfectly, and yes, Bergevin should have done the same once it was obvious Price wasn't coming back.
You call it tank, I'll call it long term strategy.
I still think there's a little shame in tanking, but it is effective
but then again to be fair, Leafs tanked hard for like 2 years so they did it well... That's way more legitimate than Penguins, Hawks, Oilers and Crapitals tanking hard for 5-10 years in order to land 2-3 generational talent
but then again to be fair, Leafs tanked hard for like 2 years so they did it well... That's way more legitimate than Penguins, Hawks, Oilers and Crapitals tanking hard for 5-10 years in order to land 2-3 generational talent
What's more shameful? Tanking on purpose, like the Leafs, or tanking naturally, like the Avs?I still think there's a little shame in tanking, but it is effective
but then again to be fair, Leafs tanked hard for like 2 years so they did it well... That's way more legitimate than Penguins, Hawks, Oilers and Crapitals tanking hard for 5-10 years in order to land 2-3 generational talent
What's more shameful? Tanking on purpose, like the Leafs, or tanking naturally, like the Avs?
hmmmmm
well, if you're doing it on purpose you're saying fuck the fans, fuck the season ticket holders, fuck everyone... that's a little shameful to me
Avs are just incompetent, I don't know if shame is the right word for them
Tanking IS a long term strategy. You're getting too emotional about the language, even though everyone agreed on it as it was happening.You call it tank, I'll call it long term strategy.
"Tanking" = "Rebuild" with a calculated intention to lose
eg,
Rebuild
Lose: UFA Reimer
Gain: Prospects and picks for the future
Tank
Lose: UFA Reimer
Gain: Greater probability that you will lose and therefore pick higher in an important draft
Both happened. Though the return for Reimer was so disappointing for a goalie that had been leagues better than the other goalies in the system that the move was generally understood as being made largely for tanking purposes.
Just take the shame that goes along with tanking and be contented that you've got Matthews to dry your tears.
MacKenzie is just another dude with an opinion, to be fair. And he has less experience than proper scouts.
The failure of Virtanen to break into pro hockey has surprised even his doubters, I'd guess. He was thought to have an easier transition than most since he skates well and has good size. Unfortunately he's just lost out there.
MacKenzie's rankings are just him averaging out what scouts tell him.
Right. I did know that once.MacKenzie's rankings are just him averaging out what scouts tell him.
hmmmmm
well, if you're doing it on purpose you're saying fuck the fans, fuck the season ticket holders, fuck everyone... that's a little shameful to me
Avs are just incompetent, I don't know if shame is the right word for them
After years of mismanagement and leaving the cupboards bare, even the most hardened Leafs fan was on board for building through the draft. It's hardly a "fuck you" to fans when you can show them a realistic light at the end of the tunnel. Fans can understand that teams need to get turned over. There is no way to stay on top especially with the salary cap.
ElephantShell
Banned
I think that even though last year was a miserable tank year with no hope for success, the fans didn't seem to be upset. Obviously all the Leafs fans on here understood but I feel like even the average Leafs fan on the street was with the program.
I think everybody was just happy that there WAS a program.
I guess that's one positive to the intentional tank, your fans are aware of what is happening going in so they adjust their expectations accordingly.
I think everybody was just happy that there WAS a program.
I guess that's one positive to the intentional tank, your fans are aware of what is happening going in so they adjust their expectations accordingly.
Agreed.I think that even though last year was a miserable tank year with no hope for success, the fans didn't seem to be upset. Obviously all the Leafs fans on here understood but I feel like even the average Leafs fan on the street was with the program.
I think everybody was just happy that there WAS a program.
I guess that's one positive to the intentional tank, your fans are aware of what is happening going in so they adjust their expectations accordingly.
Though imagine if the Leafs had the Avs luck and had drafted 4th instead. Puljujarvi is a great prospect but he needs time to develop and still would never be the difference maker that Matthews is.
Let me tell you. It's a lot harder to stomach a terrible season, despite better efforts, when you're not 'rewarded' for it.
Unhandled Exception
Member
Not really understanding people who are laughing AT the Avs over the lottery. The situation I get because it's so absurd, but the Avs being where they are and the league systematically fucking them in this way is bad for the league. The very possibility of "the rich get richer" via the drafting order just shows how little parity is a concern to Bettman.
Quoth Button, June 24, predicting Canucks take him at #6:
"Jake Virtanen might have the most upside of any player in this draft. Excellent skater, excellent shot... Potentially a grand slam player... With that kind of upside, I don't know how you can pass him by."
Along the lines of what other scouts felt.
So did you just remember that? Or did you look at this list which omitted Virtanen in error and doesn't go past #30? ��
Virtanen was a top 10 prospect. That was the consensus. The crime was that the owners intervened to get a hometown boy when he wasn't the BPA.
That's a mock draft done by Button. He does a mock draft and an actual list.
His actual draft list apparently had Virtanen in the 2nd.
I would link to his actual list but apparently any supposed link to it results in a 404 error, and TSN is one of the worst websites for searching any old articles.
EDIT: https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/06/24/bob-mckenzies-2014-nhl-draft-rankings/
Here's one where you can see Button's ranking.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
That feeling when you expect the worst and it happens, but you're still upset.
Ok my bad. I figured it was an anomaly since he (therefore) completely contradicted himself days before the draft: "I don't know how you can pass him by [at #6]"
Button is a volatile talent scout. He seems to go off the board in both directions from time to time. I suppose in this case he was right. 😬
Button is a volatile talent scout. He seems to go off the board in both directions from time to time. I suppose in this case he was right. 😬
Not really understanding people who are laughing AT the Avs over the lottery. The situation I get because it's so absurd, but the Avs being where they are and the league systematically fucking them in this way is bad for the league. The very possibility of "the rich get richer" via the drafting order just shows how little parity is a concern to Bettman.
Didn't the Avs get first overall and draft McKinnon? And didn't you also have high picks for Duchene and Landeskog? Do you want to be another Oilers with multiple first overalls before you can build a winner? What I don't understand is, people tell me the Avs have good players and didn't tank on purpose, so then if that's true you should do just fine with a 4th overall that has promise. Marner was 4th in his draft year, maybe you get something similar.
The 2015 draft was the strongest class in years. There's not going to be a Marner calibre player at #4.Didn't the Avs get first overall and draft McKinnon? And didn't you also have high picks for Duchene and Landeskog? Do you want to be another Oilers with multiple first overalls before you can build a winner? What I don't understand is, people tell me the Avs have good players and didn't tank on purpose, so then if that's true you should do just fine with a 4th overall that has promise. Marner was 4th in his draft year, maybe you get something similar.
The 2015 draft was the strongest class in years. There's not going to be a Marner calibre player at #4.
So? The Avs still got to draft 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall in recent drafts, not like they've never had shots at great players.
The Oilers ruined it for everyone. I think the league should have put in a rule that you can't win the draft lottery more than twice in 5 years or something similar. At least then you'll avoid the Oilers situation of constantly being in that lottery and winning multiple years.
You also don't know what kind of player you'll get in the draft despite the scouts best guesses. Otherwise Karlsson should have gone first overall in his draft year. Who knows who the Avs get at 4, he might be a star that nobody saw coming.
My lukewarm take is I think the Avs will be OK next year. Probably not a playoff team, but not in need of a teardown either. With their roster, I think the odds of them having a season like they just had was probably not much less than when they had 110 points or whatever it was a few years ago. Both pretty big anomalies.
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Not to armchair GM or anything, but I'm going to armchair GM here and say that the Avs fucked up by giving the C to Landeskog. They stuck by McLeod too long, they gave Landesgoon the free reigns to do whatever he wanted, and MacKinnon and Duchene were never given a supporting cast to really support them. Tanguay? Iginla? Terrible moves.
Barrie and Johnson on the back-end can't do everything. They need at least two more top-4 defenders. Zadorov may be one, but they need someone else who is solid.
Trade Landeskog out East for somebody who would love his game. Probably Boston. Get a guy back that can help out the defense, bring in a solid free agent top-six forward who can help the culture turn around, give that C to Duchene like it should have been with him all along, and get rid of Bednar.
They've got a really, really strong prospect in Rantanen. He's a great building block for that franchise. Jost is obviously a damn good player as well. He could end up being a top-5 player of that draft, to be completely honest. A top six with Rantanen, Jost, Duchene, MacKinnon is a great group to build around, but they need one more good/great player in there, and they need three solid defenders when they only have two.
Trading away Landeskog for whatever defender they can get would be a fantastic first move.
They still will probably suck this year, but that'll give them a chance to get rid of Bednar, and then they can hire somebody competent like Sutter and I could see that franchise turn around sooner rather than later - as much as I would hate to have another great team in this division.
Barrie and Johnson on the back-end can't do everything. They need at least two more top-4 defenders. Zadorov may be one, but they need someone else who is solid.
Trade Landeskog out East for somebody who would love his game. Probably Boston. Get a guy back that can help out the defense, bring in a solid free agent top-six forward who can help the culture turn around, give that C to Duchene like it should have been with him all along, and get rid of Bednar.
They've got a really, really strong prospect in Rantanen. He's a great building block for that franchise. Jost is obviously a damn good player as well. He could end up being a top-5 player of that draft, to be completely honest. A top six with Rantanen, Jost, Duchene, MacKinnon is a great group to build around, but they need one more good/great player in there, and they need three solid defenders when they only have two.
Trading away Landeskog for whatever defender they can get would be a fantastic first move.
They still will probably suck this year, but that'll give them a chance to get rid of Bednar, and then they can hire somebody competent like Sutter and I could see that franchise turn around sooner rather than later - as much as I would hate to have another great team in this division.
Unhandled Exception
Member
Didn't the Avs get first overall and draft McKinnon? And didn't you also have high picks for Duchene and Landeskog? Do you want to be another Oilers with multiple first overalls before you can build a winner? What I don't understand is, people tell me the Avs have good players and didn't tank on purpose, so then if that's true you should do just fine with a 4th overall that has promise. Marner was 4th in his draft year, maybe you get something similar.
This is the weakest draft in quite some time. A Marner type player at 4th is a pipedream.
But not only that, this isn't strictly about the Avs. What happened this draft? The teams that need the most help got fucked the most. Think about that for a second. It's been how long since this method of draft lottery started, and we've already seen how the worst case scenario play out. Whether or not the Avs took another promising player and turned them into another bust has zero to do with the fact that this method of determining a draft order is a failure.
This is the weakest draft in quite some time. A Marner type player at 4th is a pipedream.
But not only that, this isn't strictly about the Avs. What happened this draft? The teams that need the most help got fucked the most. Think about that for a second. It's been how long since this method of draft lottery started, and we've already seen how the worst case scenario play out. Whether or not the Avs took another promising player and turned them into another bust has zero to do with the fact that this method of determining a draft order is a failure.
Even with everyone saying this is a weak draft, I'm sure they'll be impact players drafted later in the draft that nobody had pegged. It always happens.
Again, you can blame the Oilers for the changes in the lottery. They should have left it with higher odds for the last place team, but the additional rule of not being allowed to win first overall multiple times in successive years.
Unhandled Exception
Member
And you're continuing to ignore the fact that this method of drafting is a failure because why? Leafs didn't get fucked by it yet?
Arizona has moved down a combined 6 slots in the lottery the last three years. Jesus.
They're ok they took Strome ahead of Marner.
You seem a bit agitated today? There is no "So?" here. I was just commenting on the disparity between the drafts.So? The Avs still got to draft 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall in recent drafts, not like they've never had shots at great players.
The Oilers ruined it for everyone. I think the league should have put in a rule that you can't win the draft lottery more than twice in 5 years or something similar. At least then you'll avoid the Oilers situation of constantly being in that lottery and winning multiple years.
You also don't know what kind of player you'll get in the draft despite the scouts best guesses. Otherwise Karlsson should have gone first overall in his draft year. Who knows who the Avs get at 4, he might be a star that nobody saw coming.
You seem a bit agitated today? There is no "So?" here. I was just commenting on the disparity between the drafts.
I am a bit agitated, sometimes things are just shit all over.
Unhandled Exception
Member
Arizona has moved down a combined 6 slots in the lottery the last three years. Jesus.
Wait it might be 5. Confused them for someone else last year. Still though.
But it's fine tho because Arizona is not spelled Toronto.
Guys, guys.
All of our teams are terrible
Yeah boohoo my team got to the playoffs woe is me
FUBAR McDangles
Member
But it's fine tho because Arizona is not spelled Toronto.
Yeah boohoo my team got to the playoffs woe is me
Wild traded away their 1st round pick for Martin Hanzal.
They went ALL. IN. and lost first round. Woe is me.
But it's fine tho because Arizona is not spelled Toronto.
Yeah boohoo my team got to the playoffs woe is me
They won as many games as the Leafs.
Wild traded away their 1st round pick for Martin Hanzal.
They went ALL. IN. and lost first round. Woe is me.
Habs will sign Martin Hanzal as their #1 center for 6M a year this summer. Woe is me
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Habs will sign Martin Hanzal as their #1 center for 6M a year this summer. Woe is me
This reminds me.
Fellas, want to do a formalized game version of that free agent frenzy thing we tried to guess at last year?
We have google excel files, with a tab for each player. One point for guessing the right team, one point for right number of years, one point for correct AAV, and one point for total dollar worth. Example you guess Martin Hanzal goes to Montreal (Correct) for 6 years (incorrect) at 5.5m/year (correct) for a total of 33m (incorrect). You get two points.
Whoever wins gets to pick avatars for the off-season (from the July 05-start of preseason) for all the losers.
Y/N?
Anybody in?
Arizona has moved down a combined 6 slots in the lottery the last three years. Jesus.
Wait it might be 5. Confused them for someone else last year. Still though.
Watch the Quebec Coyotes be the next Canadian team to win a cup within a few years after they get relocated, it'll be the reverse of when the Nordiques moved to Colorado
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
the odds should be the same for every non-playoff team in the draft
your team sucks?
too bad
git gud
I know Leafs fans are usually divorced from reality, but man
ElephantShell
Banned
They should just go back to only deciding 1st overall with the lottery. Or decide top 2 with a lottery. Then you can never be bumped more than 2 spots. And really jack up the odds for the bottom 5 teams.
Maybe have your odds decided not only by standings position but by the number of actual points you got during the season. So a dead last team with 40 something points one year has better odds than a dead last team with 60 something points another year, and teams that finish with similar point totals have similar odds.
A dead last team, who had a historically bad season getting bumped out of the top 3 ain't right and I don't think is good for the league.
Maybe have your odds decided not only by standings position but by the number of actual points you got during the season. So a dead last team with 40 something points one year has better odds than a dead last team with 60 something points another year, and teams that finish with similar point totals have similar odds.
A dead last team, who had a historically bad season getting bumped out of the top 3 ain't right and I don't think is good for the league.
Creeper!
Our Sea Dogs!
I should try and go to one of their games in the finals
Leafs-gaf is angry and annoyed for some reason today, don't know whyI know Leafs fans are usually divorced from reality, but man