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Scanline screenshot thread. Because 240p is all the p's I need.

M

Moor-Angol

Banned
Daytona (Saturn, RGB, XRGBmini, LCD)

daytona.jpg



I'd like to know from other Framemeister users which parameters do they use, for example scanlines width
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
7DollarHagane said:
I am all for scan line emulation. This hardware and these CRTs won't last forever. I want my grandkids to be able to enjoy scan line 240p beauty.
Click to expand...

I think as long as people who grew up with 8 bit and 16 bit are alive, there'll be access to working consoles or restored/custom made working consoles -- because the generation that grew up with it will never stop caring about it.
 
W

Wookieomg

Member
All these trips down memory lane... Good times. Nostalgia, the artwork, all those gorgeous visuals. I can't explain it, but the visuals pop off the screen so beautifully with some of these pics. Love this thread!
 
D

Durante

Member
akachan ningen said:
I don't get this. What's so great about scanlines? nostalgia?
Click to expand...
I think people put too much importance on the simplistic "scanlines" and not enough on all the other effects a 240p CRT display had on graphics.

I used to think simple filters to put scanlines on top of an image were silly, and to some extent I still do. The point is, the graphics in these old games were designed to be displayed on a low-res CRT, and so they are built to work best with the gamma ramp, intra- and inter-scanline blur and phosphor glow which could be expected from that.

If you compare e.g. this image to a straight upscale (nearest neighbour or bilinear or bicubic, doesn't matter really) to 1920x1440, it looks massively better and almost unarguably closer to the artist's intention.
 
G

gblues

Banned
Durante is there a trick to tuning Lotte's CRT shader in GeDoSaTo? I tried using it with Daggerfall and the end result was very dark. The shots in my prev post use the other CRT shader.

I don't see a gamma option. I wonder if it has something to do with the colorspace conversions going on?
 
P

Peltz

Member
Shovel Knight sure looks great with lines. Does it include scanlines on the Wii U version, or are those user-made?
 
D

Durante

Member
gblues said:
Durante is there a trick to tuning Lotte's CRT shader in GeDoSaTo? I tried using it with Daggerfall and the end result was very dark. The shots in my prev post use the other CRT shader.

I don't see a gamma option. I wonder if it has something to do with the colorspace conversions going on?
Click to expand...
The shader (someone else merged for GeDoSaTo) is just buggy (or I guess misconfigured) in the current release version. I fixed that, and will push a new version today.
 
Z

zoozilla

Member
zoleristec said:
Emulator shots (unfiltered) on an HP p1230:
Click to expand...

Isn't that a CRT PC monitor? Can PC monitors even display 240p? I thought the minimum resolution would be 640x480.

Also, why is 240p so strongly preferred to 480i? If we're talking about the way most people played console games in that era, I would assume it would be with a 480i signal, not a 240p one. Are the scanlines stronger when displaying 240p?

EDIT: Loving all of the shots here, by the way. It's so beautiful!
 
D

Durante

Member
I uploaded the new version now. It can be used to nearest-neighbour upsample and then CRT shade most indie games.

Here are two examples (Touhou 13 and La-Mulana):
screenshot_2014-11-027bqob.png

screenshot_2014-11-02oio4d.png


With these 640x480 games it's hard to get a really good result on "just" a 2560x1440 screen, since there are only 9 pixels per virtual pixel. Another reason to get a 4k/5k screen ;)
 
T

The Mageling

Member
Oh my god, Durante you should put a NSFW on that La Mulana image. Too sexy.

I'd like to take some photos of my PVM 14L2, but I'm stuck with just an iPhone (the real camera is packed up). I've tried it in the past and the results are less than stellar. Any tips?
 
M

MightyHedgehog

Member
drvc3jQ.jpg

9HiOY21.jpg

S65pkuo.jpg

24EB75G.jpg

17jQbW4l.jpg
Click to expand...
Rocket Knight Adventures, Sub-Terrania, Shining Force, Phantasy Star IV, Final Fight CD
Genesis model 1, SCART-RGB-to-component converted on a 27" FD Trinitron

I'll probably add some more later if this Imgur account doesn't die too soon, but I want to tweak my color settings on this display.
 
P

Peagles

Member
zoozilla said:
Isn't that a CRT PC monitor? Can PC monitors even display 240p? I thought the minimum resolution would be 640x480.

Also, why is 240p so strongly preferred to 480i? If we're talking about the way most people played console games in that era, I would assume it would be with a 480i signal, not a 240p one. Are the scanlines stronger when displaying 240p?

EDIT: Loving all of the shots here, by the way. It's so beautiful!
Click to expand...

Progressive > Interlaced
 
T

Tain

Member
zoozilla said:
Isn't that a CRT PC monitor? Can PC monitors even display 240p? I thought the minimum resolution would be 640x480.

Also, why is 240p so strongly preferred to 480i? If we're talking about the way most people played console games in that era, I would assume it would be with a 480i signal, not a 240p one. Are the scanlines stronger when displaying 240p?

EDIT: Loving all of the shots here, by the way. It's so beautiful!
Click to expand...

People played console games in that era at 240p, actually. "240p" in this case is simply 480i with the even and odd lines drawing directly on top of each other, more or less. It's roughly what NES/TG16/Genesis/SNES/Saturn/PSX/N64 etc output 99% of the time.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Durante said:
I uploaded the new version now. It can be used to nearest-neighbour upsample and then CRT shade most indie games.

Here are two examples (Touhou 13 and La-Mulana):
screenshot_2014-11-027bqob.png

screenshot_2014-11-02oio4d.png


With these 640x480 games it's hard to get a really good result on "just" a 2560x1440 screen, since there are only 9 pixels per virtual pixel. Another reason to get a 4k/5k screen ;)
Click to expand...

With all due respect Durante, I'm not sure I see what you're going for in some of these pictures. They really don't look like any CRT I've ever seen... even over an RF cable, the signal is sharper than that.
 
R

Rich!

Member
Peltz said:
With all due respect Durante, I'm not sure I see what you're going for in some of these pictures. They really don't look like any CRT I've ever seen... even over an RF cable, the signal is sharper than that.
Click to expand...

I would have to agree. From all my time playing games on a CRT, from 1994 onwards, I've never had a CRT look like that. They've looked like this, taken from my CRT:

ieXtee9mwSBJX.jpg
Click to expand...

iCQ6Yml7GoKiG.PNG
Click to expand...

i30Q2aAah6rMQ.PNG
Click to expand...

I really dislike efforts to introduce artifacts and blurring into CRT filters. It's not accurate, it looks terrible and it's not representative of the real thing at all. My photos above are from a real CRT taken from the real consoles (we've always had RGB input in the UK) and look nothing like the filter Durante posted.

no offence intended, of course.
 
D

Durante

Member
The good thing about software filters is that everyone can easily configure their dozens of parameters as they see fit. That said, I disagree with one thing you said: CRT technology is inherently blurry, at the very least to the extent of (a) bright pixels blooming across surrounding dark pixels and (b) the phosphor masking tech used, whatever it is, not perfectly matching pixel alignment/shapes.

Of course, the degree of blur ranges widely with the input signal and type and quality of the CRT, but there is nothing fundamentally artificial about it.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Durante said:
The good thing about software filters is that everyone can easily configure their dozens of parameters as they see fit. That said, I disagree with one thing you said: CRT technology is inherently blurry, at the very least to the extent of (a) bright pixels blooming across surrounding dark pixels and (b) the phosphor masking tech used, whatever it is, not perfectly matching pixel alignment/shapes.

Of course, the degree of blur ranges widely with the input signal and type and quality of the CRT, but there is nothing fundamentally artificial about it.
Click to expand...

Yea, but the right picture below is really what the effect you're specifically going for is supposed to look like in my opinion.

1391807722376.png


I had to Google this since I don't have an RF input on my studio CRT. But this is how I remember the color bleed looking via RF. Also, sorry about the message on the top, it's not exactly my view on the subject.

Anyway, if this is the look you're going for, I sort of see it... sorta.

But when you zoom your browser out really REALLY far, even this fuzzy-ass image still has faint, but perceptible scanlines that your images seem to lack. I think the presence of some more perceptible scanlines in your images would help...
after all this IS a scanlines thread :p
 
S

Soulhouf

Member
Durante said:
I uploaded the new version now. It can be used to nearest-neighbour upsample and then CRT shade most indie games.

Here are two examples (Touhou 13 and La-Mulana):
http://abload.de/img/screenshot_2014-11-027bqob.png
http://abload.de/img/screenshot_2014-11-02oio4d.png

With these 640x480 games it's hard to get a really good result on "just" a 2560x1440 screen, since there are only 9 pixels per virtual pixel. Another reason to get a 4k/5k screen ;)
Click to expand...

Can we stop this please?
I don't mean to offend but this doesn't look like a CRT at all.
 
T

ToD_

Member
I have to remember to take pictures of my CRT (Sony BVM-20F1U) later. It produces a very sharp image with thick scanlines. It has a fine aperture grille and doesn't bloom as much as most CRTs. It basically looks nothing like the picture above. In a way it resembles a PC CRT monitor running an emulator with 100% black scanlines. So it may be a little too perfect for some. For this thread's purpose it is perfect, though. Also like PC monitors, geometry can be configured with ease.
Unlike PC CRTs, however, this monitor accepts 15KHz RGB input for use with your favorite retro consoles.

Some Neo-Geo pictures should follow later!
 
D

Durante

Member
Soulhouf said:
Can we stop this please?
Click to expand...
No? I don't think this thread is restricted to your idea of CRTs.

ToD_ said:
I have to remember to take pictures of my CRT (Sony BVM-20F1U) later. It produces a very sharp image with thick scanlines. It has a fine aperture grille and doesn't bloom as much as most CRTs. It basically looks nothing like the picture above.
Click to expand...
I have multiple PC CRTs. They also don't look anything like the pictures above (and they don't have any visible scanlines either for that matter). Their shadow mask resolution is greater than 2048×1536. But that just goes to show that there are a lot of different CRTs.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Durante said:
No? I don't think this thread is restricted to your idea of CRTs.

I have multiple PC CRTs. They also don't look anything like the pictures above (and they don't have any visible scanlines either for that matter). Their shadow mask resolution is greater than 2048×1536. But that just goes to show that there are a lot of different CRTs.
Click to expand...

But this isn't just a retro filter or CRT thread. It's specifically a scanline thread. Images of games should really have some sort of scanlines if they're being posted here.

It really doesn't matter if certain CRTs were incapable of displaying them. And I say this without any sort of disrespect intended, but I'd like for us to stay on topic and only post images of games with scanlines.
 
D

Durante

Member
I can see that point. Well, I don't like strong scanlines much, but I'll keep it in mind when posting here.

Just to drive home my point about configurability, here's La-Mulana with a VGA-style shadow mask instead of an aperture grille, horizontal scanlines and much smaller bloom radii both along and across scanlines:

screenshot_2014-11-03ajur2.png



Peltz said:
It really doesn't matter if certain CRTs were incapable of displaying them.
Click to expand...
I would rather formulate this as "not as susceptible to that particular visual artifact" rather than "incapable" ;).
But as I said, those are the rules of the thread and I will abide by them.
 
P

Peltz

Member
10423737_10100877139806700_7220360500453980456_n.jpg

1890567_10100877150385500_3461942307311475870_o.jpg

10734144_10100877139816680_1908538342460541577_n.jpg
Click to expand...
Mega Man on NES, Composite out via XRGB Mini on Panasonic Plasma. This actually doesn't look as bad as you'd think when you put the Framemeister into 720p-meister mode... Dot crawl is still there, but minimized somewhat. It's less flattering in motion though. Still, it does a hell of a lot better than my HDTV's internal scaler.

1480536_10100877139931450_5154947069612067781_n.jpg

1795864_10100877150380510_2287053124844810366_o.jpg


1796062_10100877151288690_3450761577452260106_o.jpg
Click to expand...

OOT on RGB-modded N64 via RGB out on 14" Panasonic Studio RGB CRT.

(Sorry about the lamp glare on my OOT pictures)
 
S

sir_kevith

Member
Here's some quick pics I took of Super GnG. The first is the actual cart running off a SNES via RGB to my 14 inch PVM:

IMG_20141022_193440.jpg


The next is from an old Thinkpad I got from Goodwill that I'm running SNES9x on. I installed Soft15Khz on and output to the same monitor via RGB:

IMG_20141022_194853.jpg


They are really close. The pics make the dimensions look off because I took them from slightly different distances but the modeline I used does seem to output just as a SNES would. The SNES has slightly blurred edges that some might prefer while the laptop seems to output a stronger signal with harder edges. The images were taken with my phone so they aren't the greatest but I've always wanted to compare the two.
 
P

Peagles

Member
^ Nice. Do you happen to know which motherboard revision your SNES is? Be nice to know which video chip it has.
 
P

Peltz

Member
sir_kevith said:
Here's some quick pics I took of Super GnG. The first is the actual cart running off a SNES via RGB to my 14 inch PVM:

IMG_20141022_193440.jpg


The next is from an old Thinkpad I got from Goodwill that I'm running SNES9x on. I installed Soft15Khz on and output to the same monitor via RGB:

IMG_20141022_194853.jpg


They are really close. The pics make the dimensions look off because I took them from slightly different distances but the modeline I used does seem to output just as a SNES would. The SNES has slightly blurred edges that some might prefer while the laptop seems to output a stronger signal with harder edges. The images were taken with my phone so they aren't the greatest but I've always wanted to compare the two.
Click to expand...

What model is your SNES? Different SNES systems output different levels of sharpness.
 
S

sir_kevith

Member
Peltz said:
What model is your SNES? Different SNES systems output different levels of sharpness.
Click to expand...

I'd have to check a bit later but it's the same SNES I've had since I was a kid which we got for Xmas in '91 or '92. Do I look at the Serial # or the actual chip inside the SNES?

I feel like Bancho's pic looks a bit better than what I get with mine.

EDIT: I found the info on RetroRGB's site. I'll try to check when I get home. I'll need to start looking for a SNES mini around town so thanks for the shot Bancho.
 
P

Peltz

Member
sir_kevith said:
I'd have to check a bit later but it's the same SNES I've had since I was a kid which we got for Xmas in '91 or '92. Do I look at the Serial # or the actual chip inside the SNES?

I feel like Bancho's pic looks a bit better than what I get with mine.
Click to expand...

Never mind then. That makes sense. The earlier models have a softer output than the subsequent models, and the 1chip has the sharpest output when modded for RGB. I also seem to have a really early SNES with soft output, but I prefer it to the sharp look due to nostalgia goggles.
 
B

Bancho

Member
sir_kevith said:
I'd have to check a bit later but it's the same SNES I've had since I was a kid which we got for Xmas in '91 or '92. Do I look at the Serial # or the actual chip inside the SNES?

I feel like Bancho's pic looks a bit better than what I get with mine.

EDIT: I found the info on RetroRGB's site. I'll try to check when I get home. I'll need to start looking for a SNES mini around town so thanks for the shot Bancho.
Click to expand...

Hey, not a problem. I wouldn't get too hung up on the softer image from the SNES. It still looks like a great image on that PVM and i can image it looks even better IRL. Ultimately your playing it at it's best so enjoy it :)

Also with the SNES mini, you need to mod it for RGB so that's a small hassle to think about also.
 
P

Peagles

Member
Bancho said:
Hey, not a problem. I wouldn't get too hung up on the softer image from the SNES. It still looks like a great image on that PVM and i can image it looks even better IRL. Ultimately your playing it at it's best so enjoy it :)

Also with the SNES mini, you need to mod it for RGB so that's a small hassle to think about also.
Click to expand...

Agreed. A lot of people prefer the softer image and compare the 1CHIP to clone hardware. I've tried nearly every revision on my PVM and to be honest they all look great. I don't own any with the vertical band though.
 
S

sir_kevith

Member
Peltz said:
Never mind then. That makes sense. The earlier models have a softer output than the subsequent models, and the 1chip has the sharpest output when modded for RGB. I also seem to have a really early SNES with soft output, but I prefer it to the sharp look due to nostalgia goggles.
Click to expand...

It does make edges a bit smoother and colors do seem to blend a bit more so nostalgia aside; I could still see someone preferring that look.

BTW I love this thread! Personally, I've always been into emulation since the Nesticle days and the concept of replicating hardware in software I find cool. I've just been experimenting with this old laptop running the emulators that I can and hooking it up to the PVM monitor as my own test to see if it's actually passable. I actually do enjoy seeing the emulated scanline shots and scanline generators too for the same reason so I hope no one shy's away from those shots.
 
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