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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED

I have an OLED E6 and I can tell you it is beautiful. What pisses me off is there is no content to play it with. 4k gaming struggles for 60 fps so looks like shit anyway, and there are NO 4k drives on the market. I believe there are some digital players that cost $200, but most digital stuff, if not all, is just upscaled. There is just no content.

Still love the TV though. Upscaled content looks awesome, and the colors and black levels make it worth it alone.

No content?

4K UHD Blu-ray
4K Netflix, Amazon, Vudu, Youtube

I think you'll find there is a lot of content available.

There are only a handful of UHD BluRays that were mastered in 4K. Most of them are films that were shot/mastered in 2K.

High bitrate native 4K content is still pretty rare.

I would say something like half of 4K UHD Blu-rays are actually 4K. That's actually pretty good, all things considered.

http://realorfake4k.com/list/
 

holygeesus

Banned
So after seeing a friend's 65" 4K OLED LG, I have to say in a true believer. One thing was bothering me though: Showtime looked like shit on his TV. The premium channels look better than standard cable on my puny 1080p 49", so I dread to think of what they must look like on his TV.

It's this going to be a problem with all 4K TV's?

Not necessarily. OLEDs are notoriously unforgiving when you feed them a poor 'signal'.
 

holygeesus

Banned
CES only a few weeks away...

The only thing I don't like about these trade shows, is you don't see sets in general use conditions. The flaws of OLED become more apparent when you watch low quality material, and LG, Sony et al are going to be feeding these sets the most pristine of sources, so we have no idea if things have really been improved on. Granted, brightness improvements will be noticeable, but things like near-black handling, not so much so.
 

The Beard

Member
The only thing I don't like about these trade shows, is you don't see sets in general use conditions. The flaws of OLED become more apparent when you watch low quality material, and LG, Sony et al are going to be feeding these sets the most pristine of sources, so we have no idea if things have really been improved on. Granted, brightness improvements will be noticeable, but things like near-black handling, not so much so.

Is it OLEDs flaw or LGs? Perhaps Sony's superior image processing will improve on that?
 

dsk1210

Member
Is it OLEDs flaw or LGs? Perhaps Sony's superior image processing will improve on that?

Image processing will only help so far, the quality of broadcast tv is shit and the better the panel the more flaws it brings to light.

Netflix and amazon 4k look great though.
 

BumRush

Member
The only thing I don't like about these trade shows, is you don't see sets in general use conditions. The flaws of OLED become more apparent when you watch low quality material, and LG, Sony et al are going to be feeding these sets the most pristine of sources, so we have no idea if things have really been improved on. Granted, brightness improvements will be noticeable, but things like near-black handling, not so much so.

Unless they showcase it because they did make improvements. Otherwise, we wait for rtings
 

Kyoufu

Member
Unless they showcase it because they did make improvements. Otherwise, we wait for rtings

Reviews are going to be fun. With the way people put Sony's processing on a pedestal here I'm expecting nothing but the best OLED TV of 2017 from them.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Speaking of content taking advantage of all the bells and whistles I can't wait for that 4K restoration of Seven Samurai hits BluRay. That and owning a TV to do it justice.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
:O


all.

over.

that.

The Criterion Collection Blu Ray is already amazing looking at 1080p. I can't wait to see the 4K version. I'm guessing it will eventually come to theaters in the US for some limited release.
 
Speaking of content taking advantage of all the bells and whistles I can't wait for that 4K restoration of Seven Samurai hits BluRay. That and owning a TV to do it justice.

You should be paying attention to the 4K restoration they did on Lawrence of Arabia. It's amazing.

The restoration that was done to make Blade Runner: The Final Cut was also done in 4K+ resolutions (the original negative and other elements were scanned in 4K/6K), so really it's whenever Warner feels like releasing that one.
 

Theonik

Member
Image processing will only help so far, the quality of broadcast tv is shit and the better the panel the more flaws it brings to light.

Netflix and amazon 4k look great though.
Broadcast TV looks quite bad, but the fact it looks worse is purely down to LG being bad at actually making TV sets. There is noting in OLED exposing flaws that cannot be seen elsewhere and if there were, that would be a massive flaw of the tech on its own. (like the poor, near black performance I suppose)
 

holygeesus

Banned
What a bummer. I thought it would have scaled easily :(

Scaling has nothing to do with it. 1080p to 2160P is a simple conversion.

Broadcast TV looks quite bad, but the fact it looks worse is purely down to LG being bad at actually making TV sets. There is noting in OLED exposing flaws that cannot be seen elsewhere and if there were, that would be a massive flaw of the tech on its own. (like the poor, near black performance I suppose)

What rot. The fact is if you feed the set a source with no compression artefacts, for example a Blu-ray, the sets produce stunning results, but if you feed them highly compressed material, they show everything, because no set is clever enough to produce as much picture information as these do, and hide compression artefacts. Not even your beloved Sony will be able to manage that.

For the record, the recent Loewe Bild 7 OLED shows the same issue with poor quality source material, so unless LG secretly built their sets, it is a current OLED limitation.
 

The Beard

Member
Scaling has nothing to do with it. 1080p to 2160P is a simple conversion.



What rot. The fact is if you feed the set a source with no compression artefacts, for example a Blu-ray, the sets produce stunning results, but if you feed them highly compressed material, they show everything, because no set is clever enough to produce as much picture information as these do, and hide compression artefacts. Not even your beloved Sony will be able to manage that.

For the record, the recent Loewe Bild 7 OLED shows the same issue with poor quality source material, so unless LG secretly built their sets, it is a current OLED limitation.

Where have you seen a Loewe Bild 7 playing low bitrate content? Loewe uses LGs OLED panels. I read that the Loewe handles motion better than the LG but I haven't seen anything about the Bild's image processing either way.
 

jstevenson

Sailor Stevenson
Scaling has nothing to do with it. 1080p to 2160P is a simple conversion.

Yeah, it should be, but so many manufacturers try to add extra picture data here and use algorithms to figure out what the "inbetween" pixels should be versus just the straight upses.


What rot. The fact is if you feed the set a source with no compression artefacts, for example a Blu-ray, the sets produce stunning results, but if you feed them highly compressed material, they show everything, because no set is clever enough to produce as much picture information as these do, and hide compression artefacts. Not even your beloved Sony will be able to manage that.

For the record, the recent Loewe Bild 7 OLED shows the same issue with poor quality source material, so unless LG secretly built their sets, it is a current OLED limitation.

This is 100% true though. The OLEDs show a lot of compression in black areas that is normally invisible on other TVs without the same black level.

Plasmas were notorious for showing flaws in source too.
 

Theonik

Member
This is 100% true though. The OLEDs show a lot of compression in black areas that is normally invisible on other TVs without the same black level.

Plasmas were notorious for showing flaws in source too.
That is a different issue. It's a flaw of the technology, these artefacts aren't meant to be visible so the compression algorithm deliberately dedicates less bitrate there. (it is by design)

The TV is not handling this correctly.
 

holygeesus

Banned
Where have you seen a Loewe Bild 7 playing low bitrate content? Loewe uses LGs OLED panels. I read that the Loewe handles motion better than the LG but I haven't seen anything about the Bild's image processing either way.

Just feedback from owners. By all accounts motion is improved but low quality sources still show the same issues.
 

b0bbyJ03

Member
Just figured I'd post some info about OLEDs since I've owned one for a bit now and I'm pretty familiar with its faults. First I'll talk about the compression artifacts that you see in the black areas. Think of blacks in steps. you have pure black, which is the complete absence of light, something that only OLED can do. We'll call that step 0. Then you have step 1, just right out of black. This shade of black shouldn't be visible with the light on. Only a dark room, then step 2 not visible with lights on either, then 3 maybe visible with very dim lighting, then step 4, and so on.

With OLED you're going to have the TV producing Step 0 black, which has never been available, with artifacts being produced (mostly blockiness within the black areas) at higher steps, say 3,4,5. Due to the fact that you have contrast between those levels of black only fully visible on OLED, you can see them in the form of noise. Most LCDs and plasmas start at step 3 black and above so there is barely any contrast within the artifacts/noise so you can't really see them (but its definitely there, just watch walking dead or any HBO show and get up close to your TV and you will see it).

The second problem that step 0 blacks causes is that there is black crush. All prior content has been mastered on monitors with step 3 and above black so reference black is actually visible (on the monitor they're mastering it on), so its not absolute black. This means that since reference black as always been visible then every step above reference black has aslo been visible to the people mastering the content. Problem is that OLED black is not visible, and the first few steps out of black are not visible either so you get black crush. Black crush can be defeated on OLED by turning up brightness but this makes the reference black a visible black so you loose absolute black, which people have a struggle loosing considering that is the draw that makes OLED superior. Hope this helps.

Edit: also, I forgot to add that you don't see the noise in near black content when you watch high quality sources like bluray and it won't be visible in video games. The great thing about video games is that you don't have to use the TVs brightness because the majority of games have a brightness adjustment. This means that you can see black and every step above it without loosing absolute black. They look amazing.
 

oRuin

Member
Has anyone got the Panasonic DX750? I don't it discussed much. It's a mid range tv. Anyone here paired it up with a PS4 Pro?
 

Paragon

Member
With OLED you're going to have the TV producing Step 0 black, which has never been available, with artifacts being produced (mostly blockiness within the black areas) at higher steps, say 3,4,5. Due to the fact that you have contrast between those levels of black only fully visible on OLED, you can see them in the form of noise. Most LCDs and plasmas start at step 3 black and above so there is barely any contrast within the artifacts/noise so you can't really see them (but its definitely there, just watch walking dead or any HBO show and get up close to your TV and you will see it).

No, the OLEDs actually have less gradation near black.
Last year I think it was something like 6-bit precision people were measuring near black on the OLEDs.
When you displayed a 10-bit gradient you could see that there were fewer steps the closer you got to black.
This year it's better, but not fixed.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled55e6-201604274285.htm said:
The 55E6′s near-black gradation was better than its predecessor’s, injecting a more palpable sense of dynamism and solidity to low-light detail. Nevertheless, there were a couple of telltale signs indicating it’s still not quite on par with that seen on Panasonic’s inaugural CZ950 OLED TV. For starters, the E6V’s default [Brightness] position of “50” has been purposely set up from factory to crush some shadow detail so that most users won’t pick up its near-black foibles. Once we raised [Brightness] to its correct reference value, we could see that the television was applying dithering to shadowed areas to better mask above-black blockiness.

For example, the Shanghai night sky at the beginning of Chapter 8 in Skyfall appeared noisier and more pixelated on the LG OLED55E6V compared with other displays we had at hand in our test room. However, it’s no longer a dealbreaker especially at normal viewing distance – last year’s OLED models exhibited larger and more distracting macroblocks.

People made similar arguments when comparing early LCDs and Plasmas to CRTs.
"The TV is bigger and brighter, so that's why compression artifacts are more visible."
Nope, the problem is that the panels had limited gradation which makes these issues in the source much more visible.
A good 10-bit LCD with >10-bit processing is capable of nice smooth gradation all the way to black.
OLEDs are good but struggle near black. Plasmas had very limited gradation and banding/image noise/shadow crush was common. Even with Pioneer Kuros.

The second problem that step 0 blacks causes is that there is black crush. All prior content has been mastered on monitors with step 3 and above black so reference black is actually visible (on the monitor they're mastering it on), so its not absolute black.
That's not remotely true.
LCDs display every single step from 0-1023 in a 10-bit signal.
It's non-LCD displays which struggle with that.

This means that since reference black as always been visible then every step above reference black has aslo been visible to the people mastering the content. Problem is that OLED black is not visible, and the first few steps out of black are not visible either so you get black crush. Black crush can be defeated on OLED by turning up brightness but this makes the reference black a visible black so you loose absolute black, which people have a struggle loosing considering that is the draw that makes OLED superior. Hope this helps.
The issue with LG's OLEDs is "floating black levels" which was also a common issue with most Plasma TVs.
What happens is that if you set the brightness using a test pattern so that all near-black levels are visible, the TV will display true black on an all-black screen.
But when you display certain types of mixed contrast image on-screen, it causes the black level to raise and be non-black.
That's why LG are crushing shadow details out of the box - so that black remains true black when it "floats".
 

b0bbyJ03

Member
No, the OLEDs actually have less gradation near black.
Last year I think it was something like 6-bit precision people were measuring near black on the OLEDs.
When you displayed a 10-bit gradient you could see that there were fewer steps the closer you got to black.
This year it's better, but not fixed.



People made similar arguments when comparing early LCDs and Plasmas to CRTs.
"The TV is bigger and brighter, so that's why compression artifacts are more visible."
Nope, the problem is that the panels had limited gradation which makes these issues in the source much more visible.
A good 10-bit LCD with >10-bit processing is capable of nice smooth gradation all the way to black.
OLEDs are good but struggle near black. Plasmas had very limited gradation and banding/image noise/shadow crush was common. Even with Pioneer Kuros.

That's not remotely true.
LCDs display every single step from 0-1023 in a 10-bit signal.
It's non-LCD displays which struggle with that.

The issue with LG's OLEDs is "floating black levels" which was also a common issue with most Plasma TVs.
What happens is that if you set the brightness using a test pattern so that all near-black levels are visible, the TV will display true black on an all-black screen.
But when you display certain types of mixed contrast image on-screen, it causes the black level to raise and be non-black.
That's why LG are crushing shadow details out of the box - so that black remains true black when it "floats".


what I meant by step 0 black is that it displays 0 cd/m2 black. I specifically said in my examples, to keep it simple that we're calling pure black step 0. No LCD can't even come close to 0 cd/m2. The best plasma was able to achieve was 0.011 cd/m2 (IIRC). What I meant was that those blacks are visible so they, in my example, would not be step 0 (i should have just been technical and said 0 cd/m2) and each step above them is visible. All you have to do is take any OLED, put in a calibration disc, turn up the brightness and you will see that if you calibrate to RBG limited, make 16 reference black, you can still see every gradient after that. you can see 17, 18, 19, etc. Maybe my explanation should have been illustrated better.

also, I don't disagree with anything you said in terms of the near black issues. Most reviews speculated that that is the reason LG sets their panels the way they are out of the box (to hide all of these flaws). I was just responding the the black crush issues most people worry about. You can avoid them by turning up brightness and loosing pure black (Even with sets calibrated to the point of loosing pure black the contrast ratios exceeded 30,000:1)
 

The Beard

Member
what I meant by step 0 black is that it displays 0 cd/m2 black. I specifically said in my examples, to keep it simple that we're calling pure black step 0. No LCD can't even come close to 0 cd/m2. The best plasma was able to achieve was 0.011 cd/m2 (IIRC). What I meant was that those blacks are visible so they, in my example, would not be step 0 (i should have just been technical and said 0 cd/m2) and each step above them is visible. All you have to do is take any OLED, put in a calibration disc, turn up the brightness and you will see that if you calibrate to RBG limited, make 16 reference black, you can still see every gradation after that. you can see 17, 18, 19, etc. Maybe my explanation should have been illustrated better.

also, I don't disagree with anything you said in terms of the near black issues. Most reviews speculated that that is the reason LG sets their panels the way they are out of the box (to hide all of these flaws). I was just responding the the black crush issues most people worry about. You can avoid them by turning up brightness and loosing pure black (Even with sets calibrated to the point of loosing pure black the contrast ratios exceeded 30,000:1)

It's an LG issue, not an OLED issue. It's not that content was mastered with a certain type of monitor in mind, it's that LG OLEDs don't handle shadow detail very well right now. 0 black just means no detail, it has nothing to do with cd/m2. LCDs and Plasmas display 0 black (no detail) just fine. The brightness of the blacks is irrelevant. LG OLEDs just aren't handling the subtle gradations of black correctly at this time.
 

b0bbyJ03

Member
It's an LG issue, not an OLED issue. It's not that content was mastered with a certain type of monitor in mind, it's that LG OLEDs don't handle shadow detail very well right now. 0 black just means no detail, it has nothing to do with cd/m2. LCDs and Plasmas display 0 black (no detail) just fine. The brightness of the blacks is irrelevant. LG OLEDs just aren't handling the subtle gradations of black correctly at this time.

the brightness of the black is not irrelevant. If you display OLED at the same black as plasma by raising brightness (say cd/m2 .011) then you can see all the gradients in any SDR test pattern going from black to gray.

I would agree with your statement if you said OLED doesn't handle shadow detail well while maintaining 0 cd/m2, or absolute black. in that you'd be correct. I'm open to any disagreements btw. I just noticed that most people don't suggest this because it's blasphemy to not get pure black out of your OLED.

Also, if you connect a PC to your LG, go the Nvidia control panel, adjust video color settings, use Nvidia settings, and raise white level (brightness) until you see 1% black you will see all the shadow detail in your content and still get absolute black. You'll get pure black and you can see that 1%, 2%, 3% are all distinguishable from each other.
 

dsk1210

Member
It's an LG issue, not an OLED issue. It's not that content was mastered with a certain type of monitor in mind, it's that LG OLEDs don't handle shadow detail very well right now. 0 black just means no detail, it has nothing to do with cd/m2. LCDs and Plasmas display 0 black (no detail) just fine. The brightness of the blacks is irrelevant. LG OLEDs just aren't handling the subtle gradations of black correctly at this time.

The problem with low bit rate video is that is does not have the relevant information for gradual black increments, that's why you end up with blocky looking artefacts, the image does not have the information.

Feed high quality bit rate and it looks stunning and low level blacks still look awesome as the actual colour gradient information is in the bit rate. This is from personal experience with 2 oled sets.
 

The Beard

Member
the brightness of the black is not irrelevant. If you display OLED at the same black as plasma by raising brightness (say cd/m2 .011) then you can see all the gradients in any SDR test pattern going from black to gray.

I would agree with your statement if you said OLED doesn't handle shadow detail well while maintaining 0 cd/m2, or absolute black. in that you'd be correct. I'm open to any disagreements btw. I just noticed that most people don't suggest this because it's blasphemy to not get pure black out of your OLED.

Also, if you connect a PC to your LG, go the Nvidia control panel, adjust video color settings, use Nvidia settings, and raise white level (brightness) until you see 1% black you will see all the shadow detail in your content and still get absolute black. You'll get pure black and you can see that 1%, 2%, 3% are all distinguishable from each other.

My plasma hits .0033 cd/m2 and displays shadow detail very well.

You're saying it's impossible to show low light detail while maintaining perfect blacks. I don't think that's true. I think we'll get a reference quality OLED panel within 2-3 years (hopefully in 2017) that can achieve perfect blacks and still show low-light shadow detail with no crushing.

Perfect blacks aren't really that common in movies and TV anyways. It's great to be able to display perfect black when needed (Stranger Things where Eleven is in the upside down, for example) but you shouldn't expect to see perfect black in a whole lot of scenes. More times than not there's going to be some detail in that black area.

The problem with low bit rate video is that is does not have the relevant information for gradual black increments, that's why you end up with blocky looking artefacts, the image does not have the information.

Feed high quality bit rate and it looks stunning and low level blacks still look awesome as the actual colour gradient information is in the bit rate. This is from personal experience with 2 oled sets.

LGs still have issues displaying shadow detail even with high bit-rate material. I wouldn't call it a huge problem, but it's something that could use some improvement.
 

b0bbyJ03

Member
My plasma hits .0033 cd/m2 and displays shadow detail very well.

You're saying it's impossible to show low light detail while maintaining perfect blacks. I don't think that's true. I think we'll get a reference quality OLED panel within 2-3 years (hopefully in 2017) that can achieve perfect blacks and still show low-light shadow detail with no crushing.

Perfect blacks aren't really that common in movies and TV anyways. It's great to be able to display perfect black when needed (Stranger Things where Eleven is in the upside down world for example) but you shouldn't expect to see perfect black in a whole lot of scenes. More times than not there's going to be some detail in that black area.



LGs still have issues displaying shadow detail even with high bit-rate material. I wouldn't call it a huge problem, but it's something that could use some improvement.

I'm not saying that its impossible to show low light details while maintaining perfect blacks. What I'm saying is that the way that LG OLEDs are built right now you won't see 1% black from an RGB limited signal while maintaining perfect black. you'd have to raise the brightness in order to see it all and unfortunately that causes you to loose perfect black. The reason I gave the Nvidia control panel exapmle was to illustrate a way that you'd still see 1% black and maintain perfect black. Problem is that you're raising the white level on the whole picture (still looks great, but I don't know how it would affect accuracy). I tried this and was able to see all the steps out of black using a test pattern with this method.
 

shockdude

Member
Does Vizio post firmware changelogs anywhere? My D50-D1 just got upgraded to firmware 2.0.13.0000 and I have no idea what changed.
 

sector4

Member
You guys... I saw Trolls last night at the cinemas, that movie is going to be an absolute showcase for HDR when it comes to 4K Blu Ray next year, soooo many amazing colours!
 

BumRush

Member
Any word if recent Disney output (e.g. Moana) will get a 4K blu? Holy shit that movie would look so good on top tier sets.
 
I have a LG B6, and I'm trying to understand the color gamut settings. So for devices like the Apple TV and other standard input devices (non HDR), what do I set the color gamut to? Do I leave it normal or put it to wide? Is wide only for HDR content?

Do I just leave the PS4 in wide even though not every game supports HDR? Also what about Deep Color? I have it turned on for the PS4 input, but does it impact SDR content negatively? Why didn't LG just have Deep Color on by default for every input if you need it for HDR, and it doesn't impact SDR? Not really looking for an answer to the last question, I just find setting the TV up for HDR and SDR content kind of confusing..

(Using PS4 and not PS4 Pro by the way)
 

jstevenson

Sailor Stevenson
I have a LG B6, and I'm trying to understand the color gamut settings. So for devices like the Apple TV and other standard input devices (non HDR), what do I set the color gamut to? Do I leave it normal or put it to wide? Is wide only for HDR content?

Do I just leave the PS4 in wide even though not every game supports HDR? Also what about Deep Color? I have it turned on for the PS4 input, but does it impact SDR content negatively? Why didn't LG just have Deep Color on by default for every input if you need it for HDR, and it doesn't impact SDR? Not really looking for an answer to the last question, I just find setting the TV up for HDR and SDR content kind of confusing..

(Using PS4 and not PS4 Pro by the way)

Normal for everything in both HDR and SDR.

Deep Color on for any input that sends HDR, if it's sending deep color the display will react.

PS4 on auto.

The rumor on Deep Color not being on is a licensing thing.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Any word if recent Disney output (e.g. Moana) will get a 4K blu? Holy shit that movie would look so good on top tier sets.
Disney has said they will support UHD blu-ray in the future but nothing concrete yet.

Really looking forward to Marvel/Star Wars stuff as well as the animated features.
 
Normal for everything in both HDR and SDR.

Deep Color on for any input that sends HDR, if it's sending deep color the display will react.

PS4 on auto.

The rumor on Deep Color not being on is a licensing thing.

Thanks! And oh, interesting. For some reason I had it in my head that it needed to be wide for HDR. What is the point of the color gamut settings then?
 

jotun?

Member
I'm still a bit confused on limited (16-235) vs full (0-255) color when it comes to a PC hooked up to a TV.

I have an nVidia GTX 1060 connected by HDMI to 4-5 year old LED-LCD TV from LG, which is set to PC mode

The two things I want to find out are:
A. Is the TV displaying full or limited?
B. Is the PC outputting full or limited?

How can I test for each of these when I don't know the answer to the other?

In the nVidia control panel I can see an option for full or limited, but it seems specific to video and defaults to using the video player settings
 
In the nVidia control panel I can see an option for full or limited, but it seems specific to video and defaults to using the video player settings

In the 'Change Resolution' tab scroll down and there is a dropdown for 'Output colour format' and next to it 'Output dynamic range (full/limited)'.
 

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I was wondering if I could get some help here picking a TV for Boxing day for my new house: I will list them with price and was wondering if I could get an opinion on the best options given, I am also a gamer mind you if that helps narrow it down:

Walmart: 58" Samsung Smart TV, 1080p, 60HZ, 2XHDMI, 2X USB UN58H5202, $698.00

Superstore: 60" Sony Smart LED TV, 1080p, KDL60W630, $898.00

Best Buy: 55" Sharp Roku Smart Tv, LED, 1080p, DTS Trusound, built in WIFI
43L420U, 499.99

Best Buy: 50" Samsung 4K HDR UHD Smart LED TV, Motion Rate 120, Built in WIFI HDR
UN50KU627OFXZC 699.99

Thanks, if possible positives and negatives for some but what would be the better purchase.
 
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