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WiiU technical discussion (serious discussions welcome)

Donnie

Member
I agree the Wii U is a cut above the PS3 and Xbox 360, but it's not significant.

Perhaps improvements to dev kits and developer experience will lead to even greater improvements then those we've already seen, but i can't see the Wii U offering any significant upgrades over the PS3 and Xbox 360. Most improvements will imho be largely token, like those we've already seen. Slightly better textures here and there, maybe better physics, but same frame rate, resolution, and polygon count etc. I can't see the Wii U being able to take a 720p 30fps Xbox 360 game and turn it into 1080p 30fps, or even 720p 60fps.

In your opinion are framerate and resolution the only really significant measurements of improvement in games?

I mean they're certainly important, but I think lighting, textures, geometry, particles ect are as important or even more so.

By the way just FYI a longer draw distance would mean more polygons.
 

Donnie

Member
probably the latter.

looks like this chipworks stuff got very muddy and little clear info was gleaned.

what i take most out of it is wii u has either 160 or 320 shaders almost surely. if i start seeing games a cut above ps360, i'll believe 320 (but by then nobody will care as those games wont show till next gen ships). if it keeps this pattern of slightly inferior ps360 ports, i'll believe 160,

Hows the weather back in 2012?
 

ikioi

Banned
In your opinion are framerate and resolution the only really significant measurements of improvement in games

I mean they're certainly important, but I think lighting, textures, geometry, particles ect are as important or even more so.

By the way just FYI a longer draw distance would mean more polygons.

But that's the thing. People bring up NFS in this thread as an example of how capable the Wii U is.

The geometery is the same as the PS3 and Xbox 360

Resolution same

Frame rate same

Draw distance afaik is same?

Game still suffers slow down and lag.

Lighting is improved with the Day/Night mode. But i'd quesiton how tech that really is as it seems to be largely static.

I appreciate early dev kits, learning the architecture, etc etc. But i don't see even the benifits the Wii U version of NFS has over the Xbox 360 and PS3 counter parts as anything to sing and dance about.

I know Nintendo will do some amazing things with this system. When i look at what they achieved on the GC with Zelda TP, i have no doubt it will have beutiful and artistic games.
 

StevieP

Banned
But that's the thing. People bring up NFS in this thread as an example of how capable the Wii U is.

The geometery is the same as the PS3 and Xbox 360

Resolution same

Frame rate same

Well hang on.

Yesterday, you said this:

ikioi said:
PPC 750 is not suited for use in a modern HD game console. It's an architecture that simply wasn't designed for the demands of modern day processing, yet alone playing HD video games. Look at its SIMD capabilities, its number crunching, this thing is better suited to a smart phone then it is a 'HD games console'.

Frankly i don't think its 'performance' per watt is good at all. While it may use bugger all power, it also provides bugger all performance.

goalposts.jpg
 

ikioi

Banned
Well hang on.

Yesterday, you said this:



goalposts.jpg

No you're right.

Reading and reflecting on some of your comments certainly changed my view/stance on the matter.

The impression i have now is that Nintendo invested significant finances and resources into engineering the Wii U to be low powered. They easily could have built a console more powerful and feature rich for the same or likely even less money then they've spent developing the Wii U.

How does that sound?
 

AzaK

Member
No you're right.

Reading and reflecting on some of your comments certainly changed my view/stance on the matter.

The impression i have now is that Nintendo invested significant finances and resources into engineering the Wii U to be low powered. They easily could have built a console more powerful and feature rich for the same or likely even less money then they've spent developing the Wii U.

How does that sound?

Pretty much the same as what lots of us have been saying for ages. The GamePad, low powered nature, backwards compatibility all cost money. If they had none of those the machine could be the same price and be a beastly mofo.
 

ikioi

Banned
Cool. Apologies for the stupidity of my posts then :)

How big a jump do you believe the Wii U can offer over the Xbox 360 and PS3 once it has matured? From the GPU tear downs it seems the system has limited programable shaders, 8 ROPs, and a limited number of SIMD cores. Is it fair to say that even once the Wii U as a platform matures that its best games still wont push very far beyond the best we've seen on Xbox 360 and PS3?

Also how significant if at all an impact does the Wii U's storage choices have in game developers. With PC and up coming next gen consoles all featuring dedicated HDDs and significantly more RAM, wouldn't the Wii U be very hamstrung by its slow flash memory, limited RAM,0 and USB2 HDD dependance? While seek times between USB2 HDDs and 2.5" HDDs might not be that great, data throughput should be a lot slower. Pre cache, prediction, and steaming data are pretty important for gaming.
 
How big a jump do you believe the Wii U can offer over the Xbox 360 and PS3 once it has matured? From the GPU tear downs it seems the system has limited programable shaders, 8 ROPs, and a limited number of SIMD cores. Is it fair to say that even once the Wii U as a platform matures that its best games still wont push very far beyond the best we've seen on Xbox 360 and PS3?
That's really hard to tell seeing results have to do with both R&D/investment actually being done, artistic direction (you can have the best tech in the world and still have an ugly game, look at High Voltage Wii games) and the extra hardware features being used.

In a world where even Sony and Microsoft offerings step-up won't be anything nearly as palpable as the PS2/GC/Xbox to X360/PS3 transition though, perhaps not. For two reasons actually.

First of all your mind fills the gaps, lots of people pick up Ocarina of Time 3D and say it's just like they remember the original graphics to be, well they really aren't, but since they give out the same vibe they get across in the same way OoT got across a few years back (does this make sense?), what I mean is even if they improve they might still be called out to be nothing the X360/PS3 couldn't do.

Second, current gen platforms have been stretched pretty far, and that means ambitious titles. What I mean is, look at Shadow of the Colossus on the PS2, Wii was more powerful but never got anything with that scope or impact (well, I'd say Xenoblade, but you get my drift); the investment and the need to push it beyond it's boundaries was there for PS3/X360, it might not be there for Wii U if it gets singled out. If devs want to push their vision into uncharted territories chances are they want to focus on the most powerful hardware alone. This is like noting that the GBA was more powerful and had bigger cartridges than SNES, yet SNES had a more ambitious library and thus it's top of the line graphics were often more impressive. Or how 3DS tops PS2 but it's not getting the same type of games or investment for a standard.


The Wii U is so much better designed than the X360/PS3 too, and that means that it doesn't suffer from the same bottlenecks; bottlenecking on those platforms was huge, that should give it an edge even if it was the same thing on paper, which it isn't; rule of thumb seems to be 50% more overhead with less bottlenecking and more efficiency per clock all around (so perhaps double the power in a real world from the ground up scenario). In the end though, there's a gap, Wii U feature set is good and if put to use means doing things current gen consoles couldn't do, or that would take too many resources to do. But again, that's something we tech heads notice (for instance, Pikmin 3 DOF effect seems to be pretty "next gen")... But we have to point it out.
Also how significant if at all an impact does the Wii U's storage choices have in game developers. With PC and up coming next gen consoles all featuring dedicated HDDs and significantly more RAM, wouldn't the Wii U be very hamstrung by its slow flash memory, limited RAM,0 and USB2 HDD dependance? While seek times between USB2 HDDs and 2.5" HDDs might not be that great, data throughput should be a lot slower. Pre cache, prediction, and steaming data are pretty important for gaming.
Not really.

Next generation ultimate bottleneck is the physical storage; most sales will still be physical, yet the bigger the RAM you have the bigger the loadings will be. Installs of 25 GB of data will take quite a while to install to the extent of it not being something they can oblige you to do if you simply want to pick and play a game from your library. And thus they have to optimize, they have to shift data around, they have to be clever about it, otherwise you either don't use the full RAM bank or the loadings will be huge; the HDD is there because it has to be.

Nintendo's way of doing things is basically intentional crippling; by crippling it they ensue that devs have to either decrease asset quality/memory footprint or make it fit onto 1 GB of RAM just the same; meaning overall quality aside, sans optimization chances are the results will be Wii U having really light loadings compared to other platforms normal case scenarios sans-install, fine for loadings. And Nintendo is really a one size fits all kind of company, so it's a matter of crippling HDD reliance in order to make the disc loadings behave just like they should.
 

ikioi

Banned
First of all your mind fills the gaps, lots of people pick up Ocarina of Time 3D and say it's just like they remember the original graphics to be, well they really aren't, but since they give out the same vibe they get across in the same way OoT got across a few years back (does this make sense?),

Understand. I've gone back and played OoT and other N64 games and wondered how i ever managed to play the game. Choppy frame rates, low res textures, blurry models, even the N64 controller feels forign now. I could barely manage to play the game for 30 minutes before my eyes got sore, yet in 1998 i could sit in front of my N64 all day.

This is like noting that the GBA was more powerful and had bigger cartridges than SNES, yet SNES had a more ambitious library and thus it's top of the line graphics were often more impressive. Or how 3DS tops PS2 but it's not getting the same type of games or investment for a standard.

Well put argument.

That said i think there is a concern with the stratergy and business model Nintendo have employed for the Wii U. One primary concern Nintendo have voiced is regarding rising development costs and incresed risk. For those who want to develop ambitious games, is Nintendo's Wii U even the platform of choice? Nintendo seem to be selling it as the system for the developer and publisher who don't want to invest 10s or even 100s of millions into a single title, yet alone spend years in development making it.

I guess that's why they feel things like the Wii U pad are vital. Simple way to expand innovation and creativity.

The Wii U is so much better designed than the X360/PS3 too, and that means that it doesn't suffer from the same bottlenecks; bottlenecking on those platforms was huge, that should give it an edge even if it was the same thing on paper, which it isn't; rule of thumb seems to be 50% more overhead with less bottlenecking and more efficiency per clock all around (so perhaps double the power in a real world from the ground up scenario).

I can accept this. But look at what happened with the Wii, it was clearly more powerful and capable then the Gamecube. More powerful CPU, GPU, more memory, progressive scan for PAL, 6x or more storage space per optical disc, etc. Personally though i found very for Wii games even seemed to even match the top teir of Gamecube games. Zelda TP, Rouge Squadron 2 and 3, Resident Evil 4, etc.

Installs of 25 GB of data will take quite a while to install to the extent of it not being something they can oblige you to do if you simply want to pick and play a game from your library.

Pretty sure games on PS4 will be able to install data as required. Similar to what Blizzard have done with WoW but on a better scale. You won't have to install the entire game, rather the game will install only what it needs to get you up and running.
 
Understand. I've gone back and played OoT and other N64 games and wondered how i ever managed to play the game. Choppy frame rates, low res textures, blurry models, even the N64 controller feels forign now. I could barely manage to play the game for 30 minutes before my eyes got sore, yet in 1998 i could sit in front of my N64 all day.
Precisely, people won't recall the horrible vsync, low resolution textures or the sub-HD going on. Top range current gen games like Uncharted or Halo 4 simply won't be put to shame by PS4/X720 let alone Wii U.

And thing is, in N64 days double the power really made the difference whether something was doable or not, such is not the case today. It's mostly a matter of how far you're willing to scale it.
That said i think there is a concern with the stratergy and business model Nintendo have employed for the Wii U. One primary concern Nintendo have voiced is regarding rising development costs and incresed risk. For those who want to develop ambitious games, is Nintendo's Wii U even the platform of choice? Nintendo seem to be selling it as the system for the developer and publisher who don't want to invest 10s or even 100s of millions into a single title, yet alone spend years in development making it.
That's not all that different than Sony's decision to go with a simpler architecture this time around, or how Sony and Microsoft are both borrowing from PC's at this point. With the development cost increase everyone is trying to make it more affordable by making the platform itself give less resistance in being conquered (and also making ports across systems cheaper)

As for Nintendo possibly being a platform of choice for ambitious titles, I believe there's a flipside to that.

Content takes time and money to create, there's a reason why high budget HD RPG's are reduced to a town these days and DS/3DS installments feel more invested, ambitious despite being self-contained; I don't think Xenoblade, as a new IP could be doable on a HD platform this gen without getting butchered, not because they couldn't handle it, but because the team would either get lost or pressed to deliver the game at some point.

Wii being so low tech though allowed them to make loads of armor and content without being concerned with it looking great, unique, lush and detailed in HD. Lots of equipments are basically palette swaps, but they get the point across; videogames used to be that stopgap between books and films in the sense that lot's of things could be left to your imagination... I mean, look at FF7, they dropped that Cloud crossdressing thing in, probably as a joke and it stayed in, nowadays they wouldn't do it but if they did they'd lose months making sure it looked like cloud in a drag but still feminine and shenanigans like that. The end result is the same, you remember he had to crossdress, the original version representation worked just as fine.

Sometimes you can be more ambitious and deliver more by not aiming for the sky/being constrained. Whereas while being less constrained one might simply get lost, or priorize finishing something up with extra polish while disregarding the rest.

But this is my very peculiar opinion. Anyway, you're right and that was my original point as well, third party's in particular, as technological driven as they are tend to see pushing something that isn't a top of the line machine as pointless. I don't necessarily agree, but it's a very well defined pattern; Nintendo's hope in coming first was holding it's own and get to be the lowest common denominator for multiplat, but that acceptance isn't seeming likely.
I can accept this. But look at what happened with the Wii, it was clearly more powerful and capable then the Gamecube. More powerful CPU, GPU, more memory, progressive scan for PAL, 6x or more storage space per optical disc, etc. Personally though i found very for Wii games even seemed to even match the top teir of Gamecube games. Zelda TP, Rouge Squadron 2 and 3, Resident Evil 4, etc.
Well, Resident Evil 4 was the byproduct on the SD generation, it was very sub-SD even, but it didn't matter because nobody had a HDTV. Hence it looked really bad on the Wii years later running at the same resolution.

Zelda TP was pretty much more ambitious than SS ever was, because they were fighting to put something "next gen" on the Gamecube, such is not the case with SS, and it shows.

Mario Galaxy is quite possibly the most impressive piece of tech ever made on the architecture though, 60 frames with EMBM on almost all surfaces along with freebies like fur shading, and that's on the Wii. Wii also has more games using the system acordingly than GC, because this time around they were exclusive. But yes, you're right.
Pretty sure games on PS4 will be able to install data as required. Similar to what Blizzard have done with WoW but on a better scale. You won't have to install the entire game, rather the game will install only what it needs to get you up and running.
That takes planning, not every developer will be clever about it. But if they want to tackle the full memory footprint available they'll have to use the HDD and be smart, because streaming is a bottleneck; let's say they have to stream 6 GB of assets from there, well it's gonna take a while.

With 1 GB of RAM streaming is less of a bottleneck, so you have to do less to sidestep it; the omission of a HDD seems very deliberate that way and it's something Nintendo would do.
 
probably the latter.

looks like this chipworks stuff got very muddy and little clear info was gleaned.

what i take most out of it is wii u has either 160 or 320 shaders almost surely. if i start seeing games a cut above ps360, i'll believe 320 (but by then nobody will care as those games wont show till next gen ships). if it keeps this pattern of slightly inferior ps360 ports, i'll believe 160,

Didn't NFS: MWU have improved lighting effects?
 

Donnie

Member
But that's the thing. People bring up NFS in this thread as an example of how capable the Wii U is.

The geometery is the same as the PS3 and Xbox 360

Resolution same

Frame rate same

Draw distance afaik is same?

Game still suffers slow down and lag.

Lighting is improved with the Day/Night mode. But i'd quesiton how tech that really is as it seems to be largely static.

Criterion were the ones who mentioned better draw distance AFAIR, I haven't seen anything to contradict that. They've said that the models they're using are of the same geometric complexity as the other versions, but that doesn't mean each frame has the same amount of geometry overall as the same scene on 360 or PS3. What have you heard about frame rate in comparison to the 360/PS3 versions BTW?

As far as lighting, its improved over 360/PS3, you may not be impressed by it but its still better than the lighting in the 360/PS3 versions (looks very nice to me and it certainly isn't static..). Like I said improved textures, geometry and lighting/shadows and from what I've heard a more solid frame rate (but that last one is still very much up for dispute). Any one improvement could perhaps be considered minor, but all of them should make a very noticeable difference.

I appreciate early dev kits, learning the architecture, etc etc. But i don't see even the benifits the Wii U version of NFS has over the Xbox 360 and PS3 counter parts as anything to sing and dance about.

Which is why I asked the question about resolution and frame rate. I personally can't agree with the idea that texture/lighting/draw distance improvements are somehow insignificant to improving the visuals of a game yet a higher resolution or frame rate would be significant. It would be nice to have them all, but its also worth considering that this is really still a first generation third party game on WiiU. Initially we had a few third party games that were actually worse on WiiU, now we see some games starting to come which are improved in numerous ways visually. That's quite an improvement in a short space of time, which is encouraging.
 

joesiv

Member
As far as lighting, its improved over 360/PS3, you may not be impressed by it but its still better than the lighting in the 360/PS3 versions (looks very nice to me and it certainly isn't static..).
To be fair, I hear alot about the lighting, but from what I read from criterion, the changes were due more to having more time to refine the lighting setup for night time, not necessarily becuase the wii U has more horsepower to do this or that. From what I've read, and maybe I'm missing some other source, but they drew upon an employee's expertise movie lighting to better balance the night time's dynamic range.
 

Donnie

Member
To be fair, I hear alot about the lighting, but from what I read from criterion, the changes were due more to having more time to refine the lighting setup for night time, not necessarily becuase the wii U has more horsepower to do this or that. From what I've read, and maybe I'm missing some other source, but they drew upon an employee's expertise movie lighting to better balance the night time's dynamic range.

Did they actually specify how the lighting was improved (as in the specifics of why its superior?), because I can't remember reading any comment on that. AFAIR they only said they hired someone new who improved the lighting.
 

ikioi

Banned
Is there any speculation as to the fsb speed of the CPU?

I was looking at the relationship between the Gamecube's and Wii's processors and noticed they were basically linear. The FSB scaled in line with the clockspeed of the CPU.

Wii's CPU at 729mhz and 243mhz is exactly 50% the Gamecube's.

With the Wii U CPU is clocked 1.7x the Wii's @ 1,243mhz, that would suggest the bus speed is around 413mhz.

Or is it likely Nintendo and IBM went with a even higher fsb due to the CPU being multi core?
 
Is there any speculation as to the fsb speed of the CPU?

I was looking at the relationship between the Gamecube's and Wii's processors and noticed they were basically linear. The FSB scaled in line with the clockspeed of the CPU.

Wii's CPU at 729mhz and 243mhz is exactly 50% the Gamecube's.

With the Wii U CPU is clocked 1.7x the Wii's @ 1,243mhz, that would suggest the bus speed is around 413mhz.

Or is it likely Nintendo and IBM went with a even higher fsb due to the CPU being multi core?
Bus speed of 413 MHz would be too low regarding actual bandwidth (GB/s). Also you could have gotten there via easier more sound methods, the GC and Wii FSB is 1/3 of the CPU and at the same speed the GPU is, that is done in order to decrease the parts having to wait so many cycles to communicate or falling into very odd multiplier numbers. :p

Nintendo likes their clocks a bit too much so it's either 550 MHz (to match the GPU's rumored speed), 621.5 MHz (half CPU speed) or around 829 MHz (1.5 multiplier; and funny thing if you apply a 1.5 multiplier to the GPU's 550 MHz you get 825 MHz as well so it's coming close to a stop gap of sorts; if the GPU is actually 552 MHz or so then it totally matches), and going from the RAM part numbers (800 MHz RAM) 1.5 multiplier or something under 850 MHz is the highest it should be able to get.

The 3 MB of cache for the CPU might help a lot on the wait cycles thing, so they might have detracted from matching it with the rest of the hardware this time hence going the highest they could instead of staying in, say 1.1 GHz to double the GPU clock rate and be done with it.
 
I don't want to derail this thread, keep it up guys.

I just want to comment that I have been playing Lego City Undercover and it is very noticeable that the later levels are more impressive visually. I think this could prove that the dev kit has been coming along since the Wii U launched, and that they were able to pull off more advanced effects for the later levels.
 
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