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IrishNinja
(10-03-2016, 11:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by BocoDragon

If I were you, I'd just get a Famicom. .

i hear you, but....nahhhh

i grew up an SMS kid on an NES block, and have love for the toaster. i had to wait till like '97 to have the funds to grab one & the games id wanted (back when they were still $1 a piece, as they should be now, haha)...but a friend left me a brand new boxed console back in like '05....so i've an RGB & blue screen modded NES, which i love. it's got an N8 & dogbone plugged in currently.

so with respect: i'm not trying to own a fami or even a twin at this point, i'm keeping what i have but down the road when i've $ again? i'n not against modding it for whatever audio channel it's missing, and an FDS plugin. however off-color.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
(10-03-2016, 11:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by IrishNinja

i hear you, but....nahhhh

i grew up an SMS kid on an NES block, and have love for the toaster. i had to wait till like '97 to have the funds to grab one & the games id wanted (back when they were still $1 a piece, as they should be now, haha)...but a friend left me a brand new boxed console back in like '05....so i've an RGB & blue screen modded NES, which i love. it's got an N8 & dogbone plugged in currently.

so with respect: i'm not trying to own a fami or even a twin at this point, i'm keeping what i have but down the road when i've $ again? i'n not against modding it for whatever audio channel it's missing, and an FDS plugin. however off-color.

I didn't say get rid of the NES! I'm encouraging multiple console hoarding gluttony ;)

That's what I'm gonna do anyway. I've loved the NES for decades, but over the past few years, I've come to love Famicom too. They're almost like different systems culturally, even if internally they are the same. They're both sitting side by side on my shelf, and it's just a matter of time before I RGB mod both.

So if you're a reasonable gamer instead of a crazy like me..... the mod to get Famicom sound on NES is really simple. You can use your Everdrive N8 to play it back too.

FDS stick is awesome too (Everdrive has crap emulation of FDS sound). You just need an FDS Ram Adapter... you don't even need the red disk drive itself. I actually found a standalone ram adapter in a store here in Vancouver recently, paired it with an FDS stick.... It's great. Metroid has save data yo.
Brhoom
Banned
(10-03-2016, 11:30 AM)

Originally Posted by ElTorro

Do you have a link? Is this somewhat reliable information or just speculation?

Just a youtube comment from one of the videos while I was looking for framemeister and ossc.
IrishNinja
(10-03-2016, 11:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by BocoDragon

I didn't say get rid of the NES! I'm encouraging multiple console hoarding gluttony ;)

That's what I'm gonna do anyway. I've loved the NES for decades, but over the past few years, I've come to love Famicom too. They're almost like different systems culturally, even if internally they are the same. They're both sitting side by side on my shelf, and it's just a matter of time before I RGB mod both.

So if you're a reasonable gamer instead of a crazy like me..... the mod to get Famicom sound on NES is really simple. You can use your Everdrive N8 to play it back too.

FDS stick is awesome too (Everdrive has crap emulation of FDS sound). You just need an FDS Ram Adapter... you don't even need the red disk drive itself. I actually found a standalone ram adapter in a store here in Vancouver recently, paired it with an FDS stick.... It's great. Metroid has save data yo.

i am absolutely out of AC adapter space after the baker's dozen consoles i've hooked up, haha...for real, would an FDS stick take care of my concerns here? i've most of the FDS conversions on N8, but if said stick would cover the audio channel i'm missing, i'd be all over that@
televator
Member
(10-03-2016, 11:47 AM)
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When FPGA clones are hitting their stride, multiple consoles, video cable tangles, clunky power bricks... no more. I want that future now.

Edit: BTW, is this now the dominant retro thread or what?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
(10-03-2016, 11:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by IrishNinja

i am absolutely out of AC adapter space after the baker's dozen consoles i've hooked up, haha...for real, would an FDS stick take care of my concerns here? i've most of the FDS conversions on N8, but if said stick would cover the audio channel i'm missing, i'd be all over that@

No it wouldn't cover the missing channel. Whether you plugged an Everdrive N8 or an FDS Ram Adapter into your NES, it won't play the extra sound without an internal mod on your NES.

The issue is that Everdrive N8's emulation of the FDS sound channels is considered kinda crappy. So with FDSstick (which is like dirt cheap... $10 or so), and an FDS Ram Adapter, you'd get the perfect sound.
Morfeo
The Chuck Norris of Peace
(10-03-2016, 11:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by D.Lo

PAL60 and NTSC would look identical over anything except composite, where PAL would have a slight edge due to being a better colour system.

It's regular PAL in 50Hz games that can have potentially genuinely higher resolution.
No list, I just did A/B tests on some games on a 576i PAL TV, via component. It was therefore especially frustrating that Metroid Prime 2 was 60Hz only, because it meant it had reduced IQ compared to MP1. Prime 1 was really by far the best example, since it's got such amazing IQ anyway and was released quite a bit later they put in a bunch of extra effort and on that version (and it's the canonical version, since all re-releases use its edits). I would say on my CRT 576i was superior to 480p, lat alone 480i. 20% extra resolution is a pretty big boost.

From what I would tell, No PS2 or Xbox games had this. Or maybe ICO? I remember the NTSC version looked a lot worse than the PAL version. But then most PAL PS2 games had appalling conversions to 50Hz, and Xbox in either interlaced format is an IQ abomination, due to a blur filter that gets added.

Keep in mind this is interlaced only, and PAL CRT screens only, which can handle a native 576i signal. 480p would be better on any other screen. But if you have a nice 576i CRT, try both versions of games out.

Ok, what about Wii-games? Are they also inferior in Pal, or are they the same?
Argyle
Member
(10-03-2016, 11:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by gingerbeardman

A friend of mine used to work at Blitz Games here in the UK and told me that later PS1 units (even before PSone?) had revised GPUs that they had to create workarounds for, due to dithering and other graphics rendering differences.

I can try to find out more if it's not already known?

Originally Posted by televator

Please do! I don't think it's well known outside of super esoteric modding/hacking/development groups.

The GPU revision was actually the "PlayStation type C" rumored in EGM at the time. I think they thought it was going to be a drastically revised console, but what the type C ended up being was a revised GPU that was slightly faster and fixed a bug with the Gouraud shading. Basically the previous revision had really ugly banding and this was fixed to use dithering instead, which I think was the intended behavior.

For debug units, blue = original GPU, green = revised GPU IIRC...I'd guess any retail units missing the standard AV ports (multi out only) have the revised GPU.
televator
Member
(10-03-2016, 11:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by Argyle

The GPU revision was actually the "PlayStation type C" rumored in EGM at the time. I think they thought it was going to be a drastically revised console, but what the type C ended up being was a revised GPU that was slightly faster and fixed a bug with the Gouraud shading. Basically the previous revision had really ugly banding and this was fixed to use dithering instead, which I think was the intended behavior.

That is some damn cool info. Now it makes me wonder what PS1 revision that other Gaf member had when they posted screens comparing PS1 to PS2...
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
(10-03-2016, 11:57 AM)
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Oh great. Now I'm second-guessing the superiority of my launch PS1 model ..... -_-
arit
Member
(10-03-2016, 12:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by BocoDragon

Oh great. Now I'm second-guessing the superiority of my launch PS1 model ..... -_-

Yours has additional ports, nothing can beat more ports!
Argyle
Member
(10-03-2016, 12:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by televator

That is some damn cool info. Now it makes me wonder what PS1 revision that other Gaf member had when they posted screens comparing PS1 to PS2...

If it had lots of banding it was probably a launch model with the original GPU...I think the GPU got revised fairly early in the console's life cycle during one of the many hardware revisions.

There's actually a chart on Wikipedia describing this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_models
televator
Member
(10-03-2016, 12:18 PM)
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Wiki:

There were also debugging consoles - these were generally in either blue or green cases, although there were some special production units (mostly intended for use as show demo units) that were grey, the same as the retail consoles. The debug units were designed to be as close as possible to retail consoles, so they only had 2MB of ram (the developer boards had 8MB) and had standard retail boot ROMs. The only real difference is that the CD controller was reprogrammed so that it would identify any disc that had a data track as being "licensed", rather than requiring the region code in the lead-in that was present on pressed PlayStation CDs. This was done to allow developers to burn games to CD-R for testing - a side effect of this was that most debug consoles would also boot discs from other regions (one notable exception being the later NTSC:J debugs, which only boot Japanese titles), although this was not officially supported - Sony made specific debug consoles for each region, and the TRC documents for each region required you to test your title on the correct debug stations.

The reason for the two different case colors was a hardware change that Sony had made fairly early in the PlayStation production cycle - the original machines were built using Rev. A (early Japan market units) or Rev. B (later Japan units, US and Europe) GPU chips. They also used VRAM to store the video data - the later models used Rev. C silicon and SGRAM - although the two chipsets had very similar performance, they were not identical - the Rev. C version was significantly faster at doing alpha blending, and hence the PS "semitransparent" writing mode - it was also rather slow at certain screen memory block moves (basically, ones involving narrow vertical strips of the display) on top of this there were some minor hardware bugs in the older silicon that had been addressed by including workarounds for them in the libraries - the later library versions checked the GPU type at startup time and disabled the patches if they were not needed. Because this made the two machine types quite significantly different from each other, you had to test your title on both of them before submitting it. The blue debugs (DTL-H100x, DTL-H110x) had the old silicon and the green ones (DTL-H120x) had the new silicon.

Woah
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
(10-03-2016, 12:33 PM)
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^ Now I'm really confused. I must not have a launch PS1. My PS1 says it's a SCPH-1001, it has the RCA ports of earlier models....

But it has a date of April 1997? What?

Maybe it's actually a later model revision, and they didn't change the SCPH label on the bottom? I dunno.... confused.....
gingerbeardman
Member
(10-03-2016, 12:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Argyle

The GPU revision was actually the "PlayStation type C" rumored in EGM at the time. I think they thought it was going to be a drastically revised console, but what the type C ended up being was a revised GPU that was slightly faster and fixed a bug with the Gouraud shading. Basically the previous revision had really ugly banding and this was fixed to use dithering instead, which I think was the intended behavior.

For debug units, blue = original GPU, green = revised GPU IIRC...I'd guess any retail units missing the standard AV ports (multi out only) have the revised GPU.

Boom. Awesome sauce. Thx
televator
Member
(10-03-2016, 12:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by BocoDragon

^ Now I'm really confused. I must not have a launch PS1. My PS1 says it's a SCPH-1001, it has the RCA ports of earlier models....

But it has a date of April 1997? What?

Maybe it's actually a later model revision, and they didn't change the SCPH label on the bottom? I dunno.... confused.....

The dates on the chart are for the BIOS, not necessarily manufacture date.
Morfeo
The Chuck Norris of Peace
(10-03-2016, 12:45 PM)
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I went with a PSOne as my main PS1, even though I actually own a total of 6 different PS1-machines, including an audiophile one. But it just seems like that is the safest bet if you want reliability, which is a pretty important thing for me. So many of those original machines have a bad laser after a while.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
(10-03-2016, 12:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by televator

The dates on the chart are for the BIOS, not necessarily manufacture date.

It does seem to correlate them to specific models on the left-hand column, does it not? The list seems to imply that certain models were loaded with certain versions of BIOS.

It doesn't really make sense that I'd have a model from the 1995 era when it's labelled with a manufacture date that correlates to a much later BIOS from the 1997 era. Why would they keep making older models years later?

I'll open it up and figure it out later.
Argyle
Member
(10-03-2016, 01:00 PM)
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I found a video showing the color banding problems: https://youtu.be/_HKjcxCuRfM

I was going to suggest Tomb Raider as a good game to use to check, as the bug affects drawing with both texture and Gouraud shading enabled and Tomb Raider does this for nearly everything in the game.

(I worked on PS1 stuff back in the day which is why I knew about this, glad to see other folks have documented this stuff because I've forgotten most everything, haha)
saveweyard
Banned
(10-03-2016, 01:18 PM)

Originally Posted by Argyle

I found a video showing the color banding problems: https://youtu.be/_HKjcxCuRfM

I was going to suggest Tomb Raider as a good game to use to check, as the bug affects drawing with both texture and Gouraud shading enabled and Tomb Raider does this for nearly everything in the game.

(I worked on PS1 stuff back in the day which is why I knew about this, glad to see other folks have documented this stuff because I've forgotten most everything, haha)

Whoa, awesome stuff, and clear as day in that video. I'm glad I decided to get a PSOne to replace my failing launch unit the other week (the laser was starting to go out on it).
Khaz
Member
(10-03-2016, 01:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by SheepyGuy

They look super bad if you have a zoom setting on in your browser, which I do because the default GAF font size is way too small.

Of course. I forgot about that.
Barrel Cannon
Member
(10-03-2016, 03:16 PM)
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Was confused when I saw this thread title. I was like "HEY WE ALREADY HAVE A THREAD". Then opened it and realized this is our new home.

Welcome all new and returning members. Prepare to open your eye's and wallets for that RGB goodness
Mega
Banned
(10-03-2016, 04:42 PM)

Originally Posted by lilralphie

Does anyone have a spare Extron RGB 203 RXI they would sell or trade to me? I picked up a 202 ignorant to the fact that it accepts Barco 3 DB9 instead of HD15.


(stock pic)

Thanks. I have retro games for trade too if prefer that.

I had to get a 202 as well and was surprised by the DB9 connectors. If I were you, just get:

-male to female DB9 cable
-male HD15 to female DB9 adapter

It's easier and cheaper than hunting down a 203.
Galdelico
Member
(10-03-2016, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Morfeo

I went with a PSOne as my main PS1, even though I actually own a total of 6 different PS1-machines, including an audiophile one. But it just seems like that is the safest bet if you want reliability, which is a pretty important thing for me. So many of those original machines have a bad laser after a while.

I must have been super unlucky with mine, I guess. :/
I had this Japanese PSOne sitting down unused for ages - bought mainly for collecting reasons, back then when I was used to collect consoles, other than games - and decided to dust it off a few months back. Well, it may have been faulty to begin with (and I've never really found out because I kept it in its box for so long), but the CD drive (no clue if it was the mechanism, the laser...) was pretty much dead. Couldn't read anything, and I didn't find anyone who could repair it, so I sold it as junk for spare parts.
I should probably get a new one, as it would get much more use and love, today.
mdd45
Junior Member
(10-03-2016, 07:41 PM)
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Anyone can help me identify and fix the problem seen on the pictures. Those are from my pal Sony CRT consumer TV with RGB scart running 240p test suite on wii. I have access to the service menu of the tv.





http://imgur.com/9RE1Zv6
http://imgur.com/e05rQIj
IrishNinja
(10-03-2016, 09:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by BocoDragon

No it wouldn't cover the missing channel. Whether you plugged an Everdrive N8 or an FDS Ram Adapter into your NES, it won't play the extra sound without an internal mod on your NES.

The issue is that Everdrive N8's emulation of the FDS sound channels is considered kinda crappy. So with FDSstick (which is like dirt cheap... $10 or so), and an FDS Ram Adapter, you'd get the perfect sound.

interesting! so i'd need a really long fami adapter & that FDS stick, and i'd be good to go with said FDS & RAM adapter? no time soon, but might put that together down the road!
davidwhangchoi
Member
(10-03-2016, 10:46 PM)
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hey guys just picked this up for ps2,

does this work on a Sony BVM RGB via component? or how do i do the proper hook ups?

televator
Member
(10-03-2016, 10:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by mdd45

Anyone can help me identify and fix the problem seen on the pictures. Those are from my pal Sony CRT consumer TV with RGB scart running 240p test suite on wii. I have access to the service menu of the tv.





http://imgur.com/9RE1Zv6
http://imgur.com/e05rQIj

Banding and color bleed? Is that what I'm seeing?
mdd45
Junior Member
(10-03-2016, 11:29 PM)
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i don't think it is banding. Maybe is color bleeding. The picture doesn't help. It is like the some color bars especially blue and red are shifted (like ghosting) 1cm to the right.
televator
Member
(10-03-2016, 11:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by mdd45

i don't think it is banding. Maybe is color bleeding. The picture doesn't help. It is like the some color bars especially blue and red are shifted (like ghosting) 1cm to the right.

What I really meant was "ringing." There's a thick dark vertical line inside some of the color blocks. Could just be the picture though.
BTails
Member
(10-03-2016, 11:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by davidwhangchoi

hey guys just picked this up for ps2,

does this work on a Sony BVM RGB via component? or how do i do the proper hook ups?

I think I remember someone mentioning if you have a PS1 that has the actual RCA Composite jacks on the back, you can use it. If not, there might be a specific RGB cable you can use, not sure.

EDIT: This one pictured here:
sixteen-bit
Member
(10-04-2016, 12:25 AM)

Originally Posted by davidwhangchoi

hey guys just picked this up for ps2,

does this work on a Sony BVM RGB via component? or how do i do the proper hook ups?

Yes it works. You'll need something like this adapter (SCPH-1160) to plug in the composite lead.





Your component cable will plug into the back A/V Multiout port.
mdd45
Junior Member
(10-04-2016, 12:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by televator

What I really meant was "ringing." There's a thick dark vertical line inside some of the color blocks. Could just be the picture though.

it's the picture.
gingerbeardman
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:08 AM)
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Is there an archive of PVM manuals anywhere?

Preferably as PDFs but scans will do.
D.Lo
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Morfeo

Ok, what about Wii-games? Are they also inferior in Pal, or are they the same?

never tested, I had a plasma pretty soon after getting the Wii.

It supports all the same video modes, so games could still be full PAL resolution in theory, so maybe some are.
sixteen-bit
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:24 AM)
do you love CRTs and Mega Man? If so this video has an hour of video you might not mind to have playing in the background
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP4cHhDfpVw
davidwhangchoi
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by BTails

I think I remember someone mentioning if you have a PS1 that has the actual RCA Composite jacks on the back, you can use it. If not, there might be a specific RGB cable you can use, not sure.

EDIT: This one pictured here:

thanks BTails, i don't have a ps1 like that but it looks interesting.

Originally Posted by sixteen-bit

Yes it works. You'll need something like this adapter (SCPH-1160) to plug in the composite lead.





Your component cable will plug into the back A/V Multiout port.

thanks, i see that component on the back of the box:

it may be a different model number but same piece?
dubc35
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by gingerbeardman

Is there an archive of PVM manuals anywhere?

Preferably as PDFs but scans will do.

I've found most searching; no one single source. Manualslib.com has a few and there are some in a shmups thread. Can't find your specific model? Look for the 14" or 20" chassis version of it. Generic example: you have a PVM-14L5, search for a PVM-20L5, or 13"/19" depending on the model you are interested in.
gingerbeardman
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by dubc35

I've found most searching;

Care to share yours?

We could make a communal repository of them.
dubc35
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by gingerbeardman

Care to share yours?

We could make a communal repository of them.

I only have two on my HD. I view a decent amount online mostly out of curiosity to compare/contrast features. So, I don't have much to contribute beyond what is available on the two sources I posted above, sorry.

Edit, sorry my "most" comment above was probably misleading. It was more a most of what I have searched for (5 or so chassis).
Mega
Banned
(10-04-2016, 01:55 AM)
I have thought of making a section for CRT manuals, hosted in one place in case they vanish from wherever else they came from. What's a good site like imgur but for documents?

Originally Posted by mdd45

Anyone can help me identify and fix the problem seen on the pictures. Those are from my pal Sony CRT consumer TV with RGB scart running 240p test suite on wii. I have access to the service menu of the tv.

http://imgur.com/9RE1Zv6
http://imgur.com/e05rQIj

Do you have those marks on screen with solid blocks of colors and during gameplay? It might be burn in.
RadarScope1
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by sixteen-bit

16ms or the equivalent of about 1 frame at 60fps

Ah, right, that's it - 1 frame, not 1 ms.
davidwhangchoi
Member
(10-04-2016, 01:58 AM)
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sixteen-bit and BTails,

i picked this up from ebay for the Guncon
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252506253249...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

hopefully it's a working adaptor. i'll post pics once i get it and report back =)

thanks guys again!
televator
Member
(10-04-2016, 04:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by mdd45

it's the picture.

Well, I'm not really sure what I should see, unfortunately. If It's just color bleed, perhaps something's not dialed in right like sharpness or saturation. Can't help you much other than to suggest calibrating the set and seeing if any controls might help correct the issue.
Yawnny
Member
(10-04-2016, 04:31 AM)
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Glad to see an OT2. I don't think I even posted in OT1, just sat there and lurked for months.

I'm about to take the plunge this month and purchase an XRGB Mini Framemeister.

I'm going to purchase cables like these here but I'm confused at the sticker on them stating SNES sync SCART: Do not use on XRGB without SCART converter.

What is it saying here? That I can't just plug one end in my snes and the other in to the XRGB Mini? What SCART converter is it talking about? Isn't there the SCART in on the XRGB Mini that these would plug in to?

Thanks for being patient with my ignorance!
Fallen92
Member
(10-04-2016, 04:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Yawnny

Glad to see an OT2. I don't think I even posted in OT1, just sat there and lurked for months.

I'm about to take the plunge this month and purchase an XRGB Mini Framemeister.

I'm going to purchase cables like these here but I'm confused at the sticker on them stating SNES sync SCART: Do not use on XRGB without SCART converter.

What is it saying here? That I can't just plug one end in my snes and the other in to the XRGB Mini? What SCART converter is it talking about? Isn't there the SCART in on the XRGB Mini that these would plug in to?

Thanks for being patient with my ignorance!

The cable that comes with the xrgb mini is a JP21 connector. They look very similar but are a completely different video standard so you do NOT want to connect a EuroSCART cable into it unless you want bad things to happen. You need to buy a EuroSCART specific cable to plug that cable into the frameister like this one:

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/...erter-for-sale
Yawnny
Member
(10-04-2016, 06:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Fallen92

The cable that comes with the xrgb mini is a JP21 connector. They look very similar but are a completely different video standard so you do NOT want to connect a EuroSCART cable into it unless you want bad things to happen. You need to buy a EuroSCART specific cable to plug that cable into the frameister like this one:

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/...erter-for-sale

I see! So If I get a SCART switcher (Like the gscart then the SCART OUT needs to convert to JP21 before going in to the XRGB-Mini, is what you're sayin?

Should I be concerned that the gscart has discontinued their JP21 edition? Is it still going to be fine if I convert SCART to JP21 with a cable?

Thanks!
D.Lo
Member
(10-04-2016, 06:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Fallen92

The cable that comes with the xrgb mini is a JP21 connector. They look very similar but are a completely different video standard so you do NOT want to connect a EuroSCART cable into it unless you want bad things to happen. You need to buy a EuroSCART specific cable to plug that cable into the frameister like this one

No bad things will happen, it just won't work.

You could damage an XRGB3 or earlier with the wrong cables, but the Framemeister has protection from it.
jbueno
Member
(10-04-2016, 06:35 AM)
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Subscribed. Loved the older thread.
mdd45
Junior Member
(10-04-2016, 09:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by televator

Well, I'm not really sure what I should see, unfortunately. If It's just color bleed, perhaps something's not dialed in right like sharpness or saturation. Can't help you much other than to suggest calibrating the set and seeing if any controls might help correct the issue.

From what i am gathering from google the problem maybe due to Convergence and/or purity. Any idea if this can be corrected without unscrewing the tv?

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