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Phear
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(06-19-2017, 08:32 AM)
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I Need help deciding between a 3900 EUR LG 65C7 and a 5200 EUR Sony65A1. I love Sonys Motion handling and i'm using a Sony 60W8 at the moment. I just hate Sonys slow and sluggish menus. Has it gotten any better with Sonys recent switch to Android? Will the Upgrade in Image Quality be worth 1300 EUR from LG to Sony? Sound doesnt matter singe ive gotten a brand new 5.1.4 Atmos System.

Thanks in advance for your Impressions and help:)
Last edited by Phear; 06-19-2017 at 08:49 AM.
Theonik
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(06-19-2017, 09:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Fafalada

That's how I'd expect it to work - but IME LGs haven't (at least in the past touching anything motion-related would destroy the latency) has this changed in recent models, or is it just Sony that is doing it right? The issue is reviews online never cite detailed breakdown on how latency behaves under different settings, so it's kind of hard to get reliable info on this without outright buying a set -_-

Many manufacturers including Panasonic can do BFI at half a frame of additional latency (8ms) which is normal for a 120hz panel. Backlight scanning doesn't have the same limitation. The ZD9 and A1E both take a ~10ms hit for upscaling though. They do have the best upscaler on the market actually beating Oppo's BD players.

Originally Posted by Marmelade

It also has some pretty awful response times, even by LCD standards.
I wouldn't buy a TV with a panel that slow as a gamer

By response times you mean pixel response or latency? Pixel response is normal for an LCD panel and BFI/backlight scanning do a great job in enhancing motion clarity. If you mean display latency the best sets right now hit ~20ms the ZD9/A1E can both go as low as 30. It's not bad considering you get significantly higher image quality.
Last edited by Theonik; 06-19-2017 at 01:32 PM.
Pachimari
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(06-19-2017, 10:21 AM)
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Is there currently a 65" 4KTV with HDR10 around in Europe? Which brand and at which price range? I've had a hard time finding one myself. I did find a Sony TV but it doesn't seem to have HDR10.
robo
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(06-19-2017, 10:43 AM)
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My pioneer kuro is starting to feel the heat, the screen goes blank and only response i can get to work is switch it off, leave it for 10 mins then switch it back on.

Once the weather cools it should be ok again. Did this last year as well for a couple of days. Got a fan running next to it blowing cool air across the rear when its on.

As long as it lasts until mext year when i can get a new 2018 4k model, probably a sony oled depending on price.

Will be gutted if it goes before then, been a brill tv for picture.
SmartBase
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(06-19-2017, 10:57 AM)
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I've been looking at getting a 55" B6 for PC use but reading some of the OLED issues in this thread has just about put me off it.
nogoodnamesleft
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(06-19-2017, 11:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by SmartBase

I've been looking at getting a 55" B6 for PC use but reading some of the OLED issues in this thread has just about put me off it.


Can't speak for that model, but have no issues so far with the C7 at all using it as a monitor.
Sillverrr
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(06-19-2017, 01:04 PM)
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Well, I've done it. Bit the bullet on the LG B7. I feel nothing but unbridled love for my Pioneer Kuro, but I'd like a bigger screen first and foremost, and if I wait around for HDMI 2.1 that's another year down the pan.

Will post impressions later. It's a hell of a gamble, because I don't exactly rate LG in the same league as Pioneer, but I'm giving them a chance based on the relative lack of options in the OLED market.
BumRush
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(06-19-2017, 01:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by LyleLanley

Is this the right thread to discuss projectors?

It sure is. What's on your mind?
SmartBase
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(06-19-2017, 01:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by nogoodnamesleft

Can't speak for that model, but have no issues so far with the C7 at all using it as a monitor.

Good to know, it doesn't look like anyone has the B6 in stock any more so I might just end up going for the C7 at some point.
LyleLanley
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(06-19-2017, 01:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by BumRush

It sure is. What's on your mind?

Any recommendations on a 4K HDR projector?
Marmelade
Member
(06-19-2017, 02:07 PM)

Originally Posted by Theonik

Many manufacturers including Panasonic can do BFI at half a frame of additional latency (8ms) which is normal for a 120hz panel. Backlight scanning doesn't have the same limitation. The ZD9 and A1E both take a ~10ms hit for upscaling though. They do have the best upscaler on the market actually beating Oppo's BD players.


By response times you mean pixel response or latency? Pixel response is normal for an LCD panel and BFI/backlight scanning do a great job in enhancing motion clarity. If you mean display latency the best sets right now hit ~20ms the ZD9/A1E can both go as low as 30. It's not bad considering you get significantly higher image quality.

Pixel response
29.9ms on average with some transitions being downright atrocious
http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/z...time-large.jpg
The x900e for example is a lot better in that regard (10.4ms on average)
http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/x...time-large.jpg
BumRush
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(06-19-2017, 02:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by LyleLanley

Any recommendations on a 4K HDR projector?

Only very recently have 4K projectors entered the mainstream at reasonable prices. Up until now, they were $8K and (significantly) more.

Also, many of the newer ones claiming 4K are using mirrors (literally) to achieve that and actually have less pixels so the end result is "close to 4k) not native 4k

In all honesty, I'd probably wait until next CES (January 2018) if you could because you'll see 4K projectors take off then.

What's your time horizon for purchase?
luffeN
Member
(06-19-2017, 02:16 PM)

Originally Posted by LyleLanley

Any recommendations on a 4K HDR projector?

Optoma UHD60 https://www.optomausa.com/projectorproduct/uhd60

Originally Posted by BumRush

Also, many of the newer ones claiming 4K are using mirrors (literally) to achieve that and actually have less pixels so the end result is "close to 4k) not native 4k

If I understood it correctly, it is true 4K because the mirrors are shifting so fast they bring the full 2160 res to the viewer, but I may be wrong.
Last edited by luffeN; 06-19-2017 at 02:19 PM.
LyleLanley
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(06-19-2017, 02:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by BumRush

Only very recently have 4K projectors entered the mainstream at reasonable prices. Up until now, they were $8K and (significantly) more.

Also, many of the newer ones claiming 4K are using mirrors (literally) to achieve that and actually have less pixels so the end result is "close to 4k) not native 4k

In all honesty, I'd probably wait until next CES (January 2018) if you could because you'll see 4K projectors take off then.

What's your time horizon for purchase?

Probably in the next 90 days or so. My budget's fairly flexible if there's something out there that's worth it.
BumRush
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(06-19-2017, 02:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by luffeN

Optoma UHD60 https://www.optomausa.com/projectorproduct/uhd60


If I understood it correctly, it is true 4K because the mirrors are shifting so fast they bring the full 2160 res to the viewer, but I may be wrong.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/4k-dlp-projectors.htm

Yeah, read this article. Great read on EXACTLY that.

Originally Posted by LyleLanley

Probably in the next 90 days or so. My budget's fairly flexible if there's something out there that's worth it.

Lyle, this looks to be - by far - your best bet. @ $2K, you really can't beat what it's promising. Not many reviews yet but impressions seem really positive.
LyleLanley
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(06-19-2017, 02:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by BumRush

http://www.projectorcentral.com/4k-dlp-projectors.htm

Yeah, read this article. Great read on EXACTLY that.



Lyle, this looks to be - by far - your best bet. @ $2K, you really can't beat what it's promising. Not many reviews yet but impressions seem really positive.

I'll check it out, also considering a few of the Sony projectors.
luffeN
Member
(06-19-2017, 02:28 PM)

Originally Posted by BumRush

http://www.projectorcentral.com/4k-dlp-projectors.htmYeah, read this article. Great read on EXACTLY that..

Yes, I remember this article! Okay, so in theory it is not native 4K but to the eye it is, yeah?

"Therefore, despite the fact that the 4K DLP chip itself has 4.15 million mirrors instead of 8.3 million, we have no problem categorizing the 4K projectors using this chip as native 4K resolution based on the fact that they can display a clean 1-pixel line test pattern. No native 4K projector can do any better. Practically speaking, the number of mirrors on the chip is irrelevant if it can put 8.3 million discrete pixels on the screen and fully resolve a 4K 1-pixel line pattern."

Edit: I wanted to wait for this projector to replace my Benq W1070 but I got impatient and bought an 55 LG E6 half a year ago for about 2.400 Euro. Sometimes I just miss the sheer size of the picture (100 inch) but the TV has its advantages (silent, can use it for short sessions, can watch with light on). Depending on my income until about March 2018 I Imay look for a 4K HDR projector and sell my E6.
Last edited by luffeN; 06-19-2017 at 02:32 PM.
BumRush
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(06-19-2017, 02:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by luffeN

Yes, I remember this article! Okay, so in theory it is not native 4K but to the eye it is, yeah?

"Therefore, despite the fact that the 4K DLP chip itself has 4.15 million mirrors instead of 8.3 million, we have no problem categorizing the 4K projectors using this chip as native 4K resolution based on the fact that they can display a clean 1-pixel line test pattern. No native 4K projector can do any better. Practically speaking, the number of mirrors on the chip is irrelevant if it can put 8.3 million discrete pixels on the screen and fully resolve a 4K 1-pixel line pattern."

Edit: I wanted to wait for this projector to replace my Benq W1070 but I got impatient and bought an 55 LG E6 half a year ago for about 2.400 Euro. Sometimes I just miss the sheer size of the picture (100 inch) but the TV has its advantages (silent, can use it for short sessions, can watch with light on). Depending on my income until about March 2018 I Imay look for a 4K HDR projector and sell my E6.

Folks have been saying that the image is "90% 4K", so I think it just means that this non-native method of producing 4K is damn close, but has slight degradation vs traditional 4K. I haven't seen this projector so I can't comment but even 90% 4K at $2000 is insane.

My plan is to get a 65" OLED in 2018 once 2.1 spec is incorporated, and the following year get a 4K projector for our basement (which we will finish to include a theatre room). The price of this projector is making that super feasible.
LyleLanley
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(06-19-2017, 03:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by luffeN

Optoma UHD60 https://www.optomausa.com/projectorproduct/uhd60


If I understood it correctly, it is true 4K because the mirrors are shifting so fast they bring the full 2160 res to the viewer, but I may be wrong.

I'm trying to compare the UHD60 to the UHD65 is going down to 2200 lumens worth it for the advantages of the 65?
BumRush
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(06-19-2017, 03:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by LyleLanley

I'm trying to compare the UHD60 to the UHD65 is going down to 2200 lumens worth it for the advantages of the 65?

The extra contrast is great. Will you be watching in a pitcher black room with no ambient lighting?
LyleLanley
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(06-19-2017, 03:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by BumRush

The extra contrast is great. Will you be watching in a pitcher black room with no ambient lighting?

Unfortunately there will likely be a fair amount of ambient light, this is going into a living room, not a pure theater room.
JoeNut
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(06-19-2017, 03:44 PM)
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God damn this thread is huge, i've looked through the OP and it seems i need an OLED 4k TV in my life, what's a good 55" for general TV/streaming/casual gaming? i'm in the UK.

What sort of price should i expect? i'd be happy to go to about 1000 i suppose
BumRush
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(06-19-2017, 04:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by LyleLanley

Unfortunately there will likely be a fair amount of ambient light, this is going into a living room, not a pure theater room.

Then I'd go brighter for sure
Fafalada
Fafracer forever
(06-19-2017, 05:21 PM)

Originally Posted by Yappadappadu

Don't know what reviews you're following but the well known one's like hdtvtest mention what enabling BFI does to the input lag.

Thanks - those are quite helpful, and the half-frame latency for BFI looks like it's actually usable.

Originally Posted by Theonik

Backlight scanning doesn't have the same limitation. The ZD9 and A1E both take a ~10ms hit for upscaling though. They do have the best upscaler on the market actually beating Oppo's BD players.

It's a good thing current gen consoles do the scaling to selected resolution themselves I guess. On the topic of backlight-scanning, is this usually separately selectable now, or just a hidden feature in those that support it? And are any OLED panels known to be doing low-persistence yet(which would be the OLED equivalent)?
BlizzyAzz
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(06-19-2017, 05:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pachimari

Is there currently a 65" 4KTV with HDR10 around in Europe? Which brand and at which price range? I've had a hard time finding one myself. I did find a Sony TV but it doesn't seem to have HDR10.

HDR10 is the base standard for HDR, basicly any new TV that supports or is certified for HDR is HDR10 compatible. Dolby Vision is at the moment a more or less exclusive standard that isn't support by all manufactures yet.

For starters read about HDR:
http://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/hdr-vs-sdr

And i guess this would be a good review source for you?
http://www.flatpanels.dk/

As for the sony you should start with 900e series if HDR is important:
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900e
yellow submarine
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(06-19-2017, 05:53 PM)
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How common is this retention problem with OLEDs? Years ago when I got my 1080p set, I specifically didn't get a Kuro/Plasma even though I knew their image quality was better because I didn't want to deal with potential retention problems. Is it on the same level of being severe?

I had my heart set on getting an LG B7 later this year with the XbX -- but I'll switch to getting an HDR LCD if the difference isn't enough to take the risk with IR.
burgerdog
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(06-19-2017, 06:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by yellow submarine

How common is this retention problem with OLEDs? Years ago when I got my 1080p set, I specifically didn't get a Kuro/Plasma even though I knew their image quality was better because I didn't want to deal with potential retention problems. Is it on the same level of being severe?

I had my heart set on getting an LG B7 later this year with the XbX -- but I'll switch to getting an HDR LCD if the difference isn't enough to take the risk with IR.

I've played games with static huds for 30 hours + and the tv clears it every time I turn it off. I actually haven't seen any retention even if I switch to a movie or another game without turning off the tv. I used to baby it at first because I came from a plasma with a burned in FFXIII battle hud, but the oled is solid. I just use it without a worry in the world now.
Theonik
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(06-19-2017, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Fafalada

It's a good thing current gen consoles do the scaling to selected resolution themselves I guess. On the topic of backlight-scanning, is this usually separately selectable now, or just a hidden feature in those that support it? And are any OLED panels known to be doing low-persistence yet(which would be the OLED equivalent)?

Sony's current sets have two motion settings now that can be set independently. Smoothness that controls motion interpolation, and clearness that toggles backlight scanning and BFI. (Both can be set by setting motionflow to custom, and have individual settings) Other manufacturers have different settings but everyone has gone for roughly the same approach.

As for low persistence on OLED it has largely not been possible on current sets. They have much better native pixel response and this year's models by Sony and Panasonic both add BFI as a option but it introduces significant flicker if you're sensitive to that and a notable decrease in brightness which hurts HDR performance considering these sets have pretty low peak brightness to begin with.
Macaco84
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 06:42 PM)
Well it turns out that the title screen to the new Wipeout Omega game makes for a great TV panel stress test.

It was running that screen that finally convinced me to do away with my E6 OLED for awful vertical banding. Really showed up on the bright white and panning HDR output. And now for my replacement set (65 inch Sony XE90) it *handily* shows up a very small amount of vignetting and a small amount of dirty screen effect. Neither drastic and certainly not worth dipping back into the panel lottery for another one but I would recommend those with Omega giving it a whirl if you want to check for defects.

In other news on my Sony set, I forgot to reply back to a reply on a previous post (that I now can't find!) that asked about how it handles white on black in a dark room. Answer: not perfectly. Looking at the screen when there are no inputs active (and just displaying the white message box in the bottom right corner of the screen) this causes quite a bit of the surrounding area to illuminate. And it gets worse when viewing at an angle. But all being said, not a major problem as I don't notice this on any of the content I throw at it.
BumRush
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(06-19-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by JoeNut

God damn this thread is huge, i've looked through the OP and it seems i need an OLED 4k TV in my life, what's a good 55" for general TV/streaming/casual gaming? i'm in the UK.

What sort of price should i expect? i'd be happy to go to about 1000 i suppose

1000 probably isn't going to get you in the OLED game right now, unfortunately. There are plenty of other EXCELLENT 4K TVs though.
Stiler
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(06-19-2017, 06:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by JoeNut

God damn this thread is huge, i've looked through the OP and it seems i need an OLED 4k TV in my life, what's a good 55" for general TV/streaming/casual gaming? i'm in the UK.

What sort of price should i expect? i'd be happy to go to about 1000 i suppose

For 1000 pounds you're gonna have to look to ebay and the second hand market for an OLED, mainly 2016 ones.

The OLED55B6P will set you back around 1200-1400'ish from what I looked at on ebay.co.uk .
gamz
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(06-19-2017, 07:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sillverrr

Well, I've done it. Bit the bullet on the LG B7. I feel nothing but unbridled love for my Pioneer Kuro, but I'd like a bigger screen first and foremost, and if I wait around for HDMI 2.1 that's another year down the pan.

Will post impressions later. It's a hell of a gamble, because I don't exactly rate LG in the same league as Pioneer, but I'm giving them a chance based on the relative lack of options in the OLED market.

Yup. I'm coming from a Pioneer Kuro Elite and I have no choice but to go with a OLED. I need those silky blacks.

Really curious to hear your thoughts on it. Thanks in advance.
RedlineRonin
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(06-19-2017, 07:08 PM)
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Not sure if anyone has tried Dolby Vision yet for games, but I spent a bit more time with it a few nights ago.

It looks notably better than HDR10 in ME:A, but there is a huge trade off for input latency. I'm not sure if there's some additional processing that's taking place for Dolby Vision, and unfortunately I don't know of a single other game to test, but it is borderline unplayable.

LG C7 btw. Anyone else mess with this yet?
Kyoufu
(06-19-2017, 07:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedlineRonin

Not sure if anyone has tried Dolby Vision yet for games, but I spent a bit more time with it a few nights ago.

It looks notably better than HDR10 in ME:A, but there is a huge trade off for input latency. I'm not sure if there's some additional processing that's taking place for Dolby Vision, and unfortunately I don't know of a single other game to test, but it is borderline unplayable.

LG C7 btw. Anyone else mess with this yet?

Is there no Game mode for DV on the 7 series? I thought someone here said earlier in the thread said it has that.
Theonik
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(06-19-2017, 07:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedlineRonin

Not sure if anyone has tried Dolby Vision yet for games, but I spent a bit more time with it a few nights ago.

It looks notably better than HDR10 in ME:A, but there is a huge trade off for input latency. I'm not sure if there's some additional processing that's taking place for Dolby Vision, and unfortunately I don't know of a single other game to test, but it is borderline unplayable.

LG C7 btw. Anyone else mess with this yet?

Dolby Vision uses Dolby's Hardware implementation on LG TVs. Sony is using a software DV implementation on all their sets that use their X1 Extreme Set (Z9, A1, XE93/4)

I wonder if anyone's tested latency on those and see if you can do game mode with DV. I would imagine no actually. Dolby wants a closed processing pipeline.
RedlineRonin
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(06-19-2017, 07:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kyoufu

Is there no Game mode for DV on the 7 series? I thought someone here said earlier in the thread said it has that.

Not sure, but I understood the measured input lag when set to "PC" (icon changed) resulted in the same response time as game mode, while still allowing the various color settings.

I don't remember off the top of my head what modes are available for DV, but I think it's just vivid, standard, cinema and cinema home. I know you can change the input to game console, but that goes back to what I said above about PC
Dr. Kitty Muffins
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(06-19-2017, 07:44 PM)
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Is there a way on the 900e to change my PS4 input to "PC"?
Alexious
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(06-19-2017, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sillverrr

Well, I've done it. Bit the bullet on the LG B7. I feel nothing but unbridled love for my Pioneer Kuro, but I'd like a bigger screen first and foremost, and if I wait around for HDMI 2.1 that's another year down the pan.

Will post impressions later. It's a hell of a gamble, because I don't exactly rate LG in the same league as Pioneer, but I'm giving them a chance based on the relative lack of options in the OLED market.

Me too! I've taken advantage of an amazing LG B7 offer, just 1800. Still, it's over twice as much I've ever paid for a display before....

But I wanted it too much. Now, the wait...
Kyoufu
(06-19-2017, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedlineRonin

Not sure, but I understood the measured input lag when set to "PC" (icon changed) resulted in the same response time as game mode, while still allowing the various color settings.

I don't remember off the top of my head what modes are available for DV, but I think it's just vivid, standard, cinema and cinema home. I know you can change the input to game console, but that goes back to what I said above about PC

Arf. If there's no Game setting then it'd be useless. Can you check to see if TruMotion can be disabled? That'd be the biggest contributor to high latency.
RedlineRonin
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(06-19-2017, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kyoufu

Arf. If there's no Game setting then it'd be useless. Can you check to see if TruMotion can be disabled? That'd be the biggest contributor to high latency.

Yup. Will check when I'm back home tonight.

Kind of a big bummer if that's the case, as it looks markedly better than HDR10 imho
Yappadappadu
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(06-19-2017, 08:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kyoufu

Is there no Game mode for DV on the 7 series? I thought someone here said earlier in the thread said it has that.

That was me as I remember reports mentioning and even showing DV game.
I currently still have the B7 here and could install ME, I guess. If I cared about the game, that is. :D
Last edited by Yappadappadu; 06-19-2017 at 08:45 PM.
Mrbob
how can the baaasheep
enjoy the shootbang?
(06-19-2017, 08:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sillverrr

Well, I've done it. Bit the bullet on the LG B7. I feel nothing but unbridled love for my Pioneer Kuro, but I'd like a bigger screen first and foremost, and if I wait around for HDMI 2.1 that's another year down the pan.

Will post impressions later. It's a hell of a gamble, because I don't exactly rate LG in the same league as Pioneer, but I'm giving them a chance based on the relative lack of options in the OLED market.

Did you order this on ebay? I've been waiting for the B7 but it seems like retailers are only stocking the C7.
RedlineRonin
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(06-19-2017, 09:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yappadappadu

That was me as I remember reports mentioning and even showing DV game.
I currently still have the B7 here and could install ME, I guess. If I cared about the game, that is. :D

I don't care about the game either. I literally only installed it to see the DV update. It's totally worth seeing, as it looks stellar, but that input lag, ooof
JG5253
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 09:33 PM)
I'm really enjoying my TCL P607. Great TV set especially for the price. I would say best TV around its price
Yappadappadu
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(06-19-2017, 09:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedlineRonin

I don't care about the game either. I literally only installed it to see the DV update. It's totally worth seeing, as it looks stellar, but that input lag, ooof

You convinced me and I launched the Origin client to download the game. Unfortunately, the 7 days Origin Access trial seems to be gone, at least in Germany and I don't have any use for that service, so not paying for it...
RedlineRonin
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(06-19-2017, 09:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yappadappadu

You convinced me and I launched the Origin client to download the game. Unfortunately, the 7 days Origin Access trial seems to be gone, at least in Germany and I don't have any use for that service, so not paying for it...

Bahhhhh.

Did B6's get the update for DV? Or no?
Dave_6
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(06-19-2017, 09:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedlineRonin

Bahhhhh.

Did B6's get the update for DV? Or no?

B6s were already DV compatible.
Alexious
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(06-19-2017, 10:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dave_6

B6s were already DV compatible.

According to this AVSForum post, though, 2017 models have Dolby Vision Game Mode while 2016 don't. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...game-mode.html
Yappadappadu
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(06-19-2017, 10:21 PM)
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Well, yeah, easily confirmed by launching a Netflix Dolby Vision series.
I can switch to "Dolby Vision Picture Mode Game".
RedlineRonin
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(06-19-2017, 10:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yappadappadu

Well, yeah, easily confirmed by launching a Netflix Dolby Vision series.
I can switch to "Dolby Vision Picture Mode Game".

Cool.

I'll give it a shot when I get home and see if it helps. How do you turn it on?

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