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SenjutsuSage
(06-19-2017, 04:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Snubbers

I'd like to hear a few more 'impressions' of those playing both games at E3, I've seen some reports of people thinking FM7 was much better than GTS, but not too many the other way around..

And those 4K Shots above, obviously look great, but I can't help thinking do they waste a bit too much time working on new shaders and should spend a bit more time making shadows/reflections etc that next step up?

GTS looks more flashy in its presentation of its replays. During actual gameplay, Forza 7 smokes it, and I got to see both up close on great televisions. Does that mean GTS isn't an amazing looking game? No, of course not. Stylistically I might prefer it over Forza in some instances, but Forza 7 is easily the more visually impressive title.
Dural
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 04:33 PM)
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For those without a 4K HDR TV, download the video to a flash drive and go to Best Buy and try it out.
MaulerX
Member
(06-19-2017, 04:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dural

For those without a 4K HDR TV, download the video to a flash drive and go to Best Buy and try it out.


Ha ha! That's a great idea.
FinKL
Member
(06-19-2017, 04:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dural

For those without a 4K HDR TV, download the video to a flash drive and go to Best Buy and try it out.

I lold my friend just got one of those KS8000s so I'm gonna a flash drive to his house to test it out. I've seen HDRs at CES and at BestBuy but never any games besides Mass Effect.
watership
Member
(06-19-2017, 04:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dural

For those without a 4K HDR TV, download the video to a flash drive and go to Best Buy and try it out.

I did this when testing TVs. With a bunch of HDR demos people recommended. Took me 5 mins to choose the LG OLED after that.
R aka Bon
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 04:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by watership

I did this when testing TVs. With a bunch of HDR demos people recommended. Took me 5 mins to choose the LG OLED after that.

I am not sure if it is that ideal way to pick a tv, just because it looks good on the showfloor, as the viewing conditions in a store usually are very different from the ones at home.
Last edited by R aka Bon; 06-19-2017 at 05:21 PM.
Gestault
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 05:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by R aka Bon

I am not sure if it is that ideal way to pick a tv, just because it looks good on the showfloor, as the viewing conditions in a store are usually very different from the ones at home.

To be fair, the alternative would be closer to going in blind. There are overall quality characteristics you can judge, even if the particulars of calibration and ambiance are different. This was seeing hand-picked demos on a native source.
watership
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by R aka Bon

I am not sure if it is that ideal way to pick a tv, just because it looks good on the showfloor, as the viewing conditions in a store are usually very different from the ones at home.

If you pick a bunch of diverse reference material that you control from a USB stick, you can judge what you like best. Which to me is the best way to pick a TV. I knew the top 5 models people recommended and I tried 4 or 5 different demos on it. A 60 fps video, 2 HDR videos, and some very dark demo video. I mucked with the TV settings to take them off demo modes and did some quick test and I swear it was 10 mins later I knew which TV I wanted.
BlizzyAzz
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:16 PM)
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Tested on Sony X85C works like a charm. Now it's time for DF to step up :-)
irrotational
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Blimblim

It most certainly can do it through USB sticks as I did it on my E6, and we tested it also on a 2015 OLED (920). Never tried network though.

I'm glad you guys like these videos, I had no idea if people would care or not :)

Awesome thanks - I might try it both ways and see what happens...

And are you Gamersyde!? i hate to think what the bandwidth costs are for that site!
KOHIPEET
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:25 PM)
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Watched both videos. IQ looks phenomenal. The rest is just not that impressive to me. I find the lighting unrealistic a bit.

EDIT: KS8000
leeh
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:28 PM)
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Can you watch HDR videos on a 4k TV without HDR? I don't have a 4K TV, but my old folks do (how ironic).
MosquitoSmasher
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by watership

Never use Vivid. It's exaggerating the image. I have that same OLED, 55B6, and normal is the way to go.

Originally Posted by Bear Cub in Sky

Vivid just blows out the whites in HDR. Part of me swears HDR Standard does too as HDR Game reveals more details in the brightest areas, IMO. The HDR Game mode is dimmer, though.

Thanks guys. Game mode only appears when I have a console hooked up I assume? Because I can't select game mode at all. It's just vivid, bright and standard.
ralexand
100% logic failure rate
(06-19-2017, 05:41 PM)
Would love a thread here detailing the best TV for the X, including documenting ones that supports variable framerates.
R aka Bon
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 05:42 PM)
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Wait I think I finally saw HDR, I am not sure if this is it, but the sunset at the end of the second video, the colors from the sun, looks very different from the ending in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7-9Izyuaxg

Can others confirm whether they also see a difference in these clips? The ending of the second clip https://www.gamersyde.com/news_forza...-19287_en.html has a more red-orange hue, where as the youtube clip has a more bright yellow look to it.

Or the difference in color could be due to it being a different time of day, hopefully someone can help me here, because what I saw from the gamersyde clip looked much more subtle, but real in a weird sense.
Lom1lo
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by ralexand

Would love a thread here detailing the best TV for the X, including documenting ones that supports variable framerates.

There is no tv that supports variable framerates.
Imo the only good tv for gaming is the samsung ks 8000 (EU ks 7090), most 4k tvs have such a high input lag even in game mode.
Raide
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:47 PM)
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4k.TV is ready, will check it out when I get home.
Bear Cub in Sky
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by MosquitoSmasher

Thanks guys. Game mode only appears when I have a console hooked up I assume? Because I can't select game mode at all. It's just vivid, bright and standard.

That is correct. If you want to view the video in HDR Game mode, plug the usb drive into an XB1S USB port and use the Movies and TV app to watch it.
schuey7
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:53 PM)
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The best part for me was the sunset towards the end of the race in the second video.
paskowitz
Member
(06-19-2017, 05:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by MilkyJoe

Found a couple of 4K screens







I'm always impressed by Forza's image quality (textures, surfaces, poly count, AA, etc), but... their lighting has always left something to be desired. GT just nails that "realistic" look.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bear Cub in Sky

That is correct. If you want to view the video in HDR Game mode, plug the usb drive into an XB1S USB port and use the Movies and TV app to watch it.


Good to know. I don't have a One S myself but a friend is visiting me late July and he brings his S and Pro with him. :)


Originally Posted by Bear Cub in Sky

You shouldn't be using Vivid. If playing directly on the TV, use HDR Standard. Make sure contrast and OLED Brightness are both at 100, sharpness at 0, color at 55, and go into advanced settings and turn off any sharpness or interpolation features. It looked plenty bright to me that way.



I like the colors in GT Sport from the trailers I've seen, but the lighting looks flat to me compared to Forza. What do you think makes it look more realistic?

And as for Colour balance? It's at warm 2. What is "proper"?
Last edited by MosquitoSmasher; 06-19-2017 at 06:05 PM.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
(06-19-2017, 06:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by Blimblim

Nope, unless you want the truck race (really nothing to see there). These videos started as a mistake from Microsoft who allowed people to do direct feed captures of the game on Ninja Inferno capture hardware. They made a mistake and had the consoles with HDR enabled, leading to the capture looking completely dull if not properly processed (something that's really really new and very much still experimental for many people).
Some sites (Eurogamer / IGN as far as I know) got to capture the game again with properly setup consoles, but we were stuck with these. I managed to more or less color correct the videos so we could use them normally on the site, and then when I got access to the captured files I started to experiment with converting them to HDR10, which is the result here.
We actually own the big brother of the Ninja Inferno (Shogun Inferno) so we will be able to capture HDR footage in the future. But considering how much time these take to process and encode, I think it will be only for preview footage and exceptionally popular or beautiful games.
So yeah we will do more, just not a lot.

Thanks for taking the time to do this Blim, muchly appreciated. I always wondered why there wasn't more HDR footage out there and I guess that explains the hassle pretty well.
Bear Cub in Sky
Member
(06-19-2017, 06:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by MosquitoSmasher

Good to know. I don't have a One S myself but a friend is visiting me late July and he brings his S and Pro with him. :)




And as for Colour balance? It's at warm 2. What is "proper"?

Warm 2, though a lot of gamers initially hate warm color temperatures. I promise you won't be able to go back to cooler color temps once you get used to warmer ones, though.
Blimblim
The Inside Track
(06-19-2017, 06:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by irrotational

And are you Gamersyde!? i hate to think what the bandwidth costs are for that site!

Well I'm a human being, not a web site ;) Otherwise yeah, I created Gamersyde and I'm in charge of the technical part mostly. As for the bandwidth costs, it's not that bad thanks to cheap hosting here in France.

Originally Posted by Head.spawn

Thanks for taking the time to do this Blim, muchly appreciated. I always wondered why there wasn't more HDR footage out there and I guess that explains the hassle pretty well.

Well until 2 weeks ago when we bought our Shogun Inferno we had no idea how to even actually capture HDR footage, not even dreaming about encoding it later. So yeah, completely new stuff for us here for sure. We'll actually try and do some PS4 Pro games later this week, I think Horizon: Zero Dawn should lead to some pretty amazing HDR videos :)
Formosa
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:08 PM)
F7 looks great. But if it has to go against GT Sport, I would give GT Sport my vote. It just looks so much more realistic and much better lighting.
Snubbers
Member
(06-19-2017, 07:54 PM)
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So got home, popped the videos on USB stick and tried my two TVs

Samsung 40KU6400 - Supports HDR, but it's largely 'faux HDR'.. however a little improvement on the youtube stream, namely due to less compression, but at least you can see a bit more 'subtle' lighting effects on the the cars and a crispness to the image that is quite nice - 7/10
LG OLED55C6 - More like it! This TV supports better HDR (still not the full standard) but it's more than enough to make a nice 'leap' in the lighting, the extra contrast etc really add even more subtle lighting to the paintwork that actually do somewhat address more of issues I saw, namely the back of the car looked lifeless, and the scenery looks great in motion, really really crisp with so much detail. The skies at the end of the Nurb GP track is great, awesome reflections in the puddles, and the skies in both videos look great.

I'm actually worried that the SDR captured videos which we've seen most of (that where taken with the console correctly set to SDR) really do make the game look a bit dull and there is a whole 'layer' of subtle lighting that is missing, leading to a very boring looking game. I wonder if they are concentrating too much on HDR and really they need to re-profile their lighting to give a similar contrast and subtlety to the reflected light, or it's going to look a bit lifeless to a lot of people and not come accross that well in 'comparisons'..

Overall, nice though, the only 2 areas that needed improvement where the GT-R's interior looks so flat it hurts, and the wobbly wipers again, both fixable.. Everything else I'd leave as-is, you don't notice all the other shadow nitpicks when actually playing so I am OK with the other compromises that show up in static comparisons.

I'm so glad I got the LG now, it's on sale in the UK, effectively only 1350 with a 5 year warranty which made me jump in.. of course I will now have to upgrade my sim rig to something HDR/Freesync 2 etc.. hopefully by november something 28-32" with HDR10 capability and freesync 2 @ 4K will be along..
Last edited by Snubbers; 06-19-2017 at 07:56 PM.
Popsickles
Member
(06-19-2017, 08:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bear Cub in Sky


I like the colors in GT Sport from the trailers I've seen, but the lighting looks flat to me compared to Forza. What do you think makes it look more realistic?

It's just more real to life and it's definitely no flat with HDR enabled, I find forza too garish

Originally Posted by Mascot

Even if you think GTS looks subjectively 'better', you're still not impressed by Forza 7's visuals?

Jesus Christ. What the fuck do kids these days want from the world?

Kids!! I am 43. To be honest it looks no different to the Forza 6 on pc, except with more jaggies. It really doesn't look native 4k due to shimmering especially on the bumpers/spoilers. Forza always look kinds fake to me almost cartoon like, where GT has always had a life-like quality . It looks like it needs some PBR or better lighting engine as the colours are always over saturated
FZW
Member
(06-19-2017, 09:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by nekkid

Ah man, this is why I hate reading GAF, sometimes. There's loads to be impressed by (the HDR looks stunning, for example) but I spent a lot of time noticing niggles with the image:

- the water droplets on the windscreen move according to your speed and direction, but not on the hood
- trackside objects don't appear to reflect in puddles, which is more noticeable with lights
- yeah, that tunnel is too dark - headlights?
- it looks like the mirrors are now 60fps but maybe have a lower resolution?
- I'm surprised even at 4K we still get shimmer and jaggies. It's not as bad as 1080p, but they're still there

and despite all of that its still stunning
plagiarize
Member
(06-20-2017, 12:20 AM)
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Works perfectly on my Galaxy S8, albeit at 1440p (using the Samsung video player). Looks fantastic! Really impressed that you managed to take your captures and massage them into something workable.
Hawk269
Member
(06-20-2017, 01:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dural

For those without a 4K HDR TV, download the video to a flash drive and go to Best Buy and try it out.

Lol. This is a common practice for many of the techie TV purchasers. They usually load a few HDR clips of movies, take them to a retail store to test out sets. While it is not 100% the way it will be at home, many people do this to see how good the sets are. So this is not a bad idea at all, especially for those looking to buy a new 4k/HDR set. For many, a TV is a once every 5 or so years, might as well take something with you to see how it looks, especially if your main use is gaming.
KageMaru
Member
(06-20-2017, 01:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Popsickles

It's just more real to life and it's definitely no flat with HDR enabled, I find forza too garish


Kids!! I am 43. To be honest it looks no different to the Forza 6 on pc, except with more jaggies. It really doesn't look native 4k due to shimmering especially on the bumpers/spoilers. Forza always look kinds fake to me almost cartoon like, where GT has always had a life-like quality . It looks like it needs some PBR or better lighting engine as the colours are always over saturated

Forza has used PBR since Forza 5 and Forza 7 actually uses a new lighting model.
supernormal
Member
(06-20-2017, 04:41 AM)
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Is there any other HDR game captures on the internet? I would love to see some HDR footage of Gears 4, RE7, Horizon 3, or even Horizon Zero Dawn. Publishers should start releasing some HDR trailers like now.
IMACOMPUTA
Member
(06-20-2017, 05:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by supernormal

Is there any other HDR game captures on the internet? I would love to see some HDR footage of Gears 4, RE7, Horizon 3, or even Horizon Zero Dawn. Publishers should start releasing some HDR trailers like now.

Horizon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZvphjRu8bE

The HDR Channel has been practically the only place I've found HDR content other than netflix.

There's an Uncharted 4 video too.
Blimblim
The Inside Track
(06-20-2017, 07:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by IMACOMPUTA

Horizon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZvphjRu8bE

The HDR Channel has been practically the only place I've found HDR content other than netflix.

There's an Uncharted 4 video too.

These guys (guy?) are doing a fine job, but they are limited by Youtube's in terms of hardware supporting their HDR system (only VP9 profile 2), which right now is only Chromecast Ultra and some Samsung TVs. Not even the Shield TV which basically plays anything you throw at it supports it, yet at least. That's a very small potential audience.
We tried to record some PS4 Pro HDR footage yesterday evening, but right now can't get or capture hardware to accept the signal. We'll try again with better hdmi cables soon.
jizzlobber
Member
(06-20-2017, 07:56 AM)
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don't think HDR on my TV (Samsung KU6000) works very well.
vid just looked kinda washed out to me, sooo sharp tho!
Mascot
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(06-20-2017, 08:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blimblim

These guys (guy?) are doing a fine job, but they are limited by Youtube's in terms of hardware supporting their HDR system (only VP9 profile 2), which right now is only Chromecast Ultra and some Samsung TVs.

4k HDR stuff looks absolutely fantastic on the Samsung KS series 10-bit panels when played via the in-built YouTube app.

Originally Posted by jizzlobber

don't think HDR on my TV (Samsung KU6000) works very well.
vid just looked kinda washed out to me, sooo sharp tho!

I *think* that's an 8-bit panel in the KU series so you won't be getting 'proper' HDR with the full range.
Blimblim
The Inside Track
(06-20-2017, 08:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mascot

4k HDR stuff looks absolutely fantastic on the Samsung KS range 10-bit panels when played via the in-built YouTube app.

I have no doubt it does, believe me :) It's just that limiting to just Samsung TVs and Chromecast ultra on an already niche market like HDR videos makes for a very small potential audience.
I'm actually going to buy a Chromecast ultra today to check it out more.
Mascot
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(06-20-2017, 08:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blimblim

I have no doubt it does, believe me :) It's just that limiting to just Samsung TVs and Chromecast ultra on an already niche market like HDR videos makes for a very small potential audience.
I'm actually going to buy a Chromecast ultra today to check it out more.

Well, HDR is still really in its infancy but I'm guessing the YouTube apps on other smart TVs could be updated to play HDR content, if the manufacturers and YouTube put their heads together. Hopefully all new HDR TVs will be 10-bit too, and 8-bit panels will die off like HD Ready TVs did to make way for full HD about a decade ago.
murgo
Member
(06-20-2017, 08:43 AM)
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I watched both vids on my KS8000 and my mind is blown. It looks so clean and beautiful. I really need to buy a wheel and find a solution to connect my PC to the TV.
JackAubrey
Member
(06-20-2017, 08:45 AM)

Originally Posted by Mascot

4k HDR stuff looks absolutely fantastic on the Samsung KS series 10-bit panels when played via the in-built YouTube app.



I *think* that's an 8-bit panel in the KU series so you won't be getting 'proper' HDR with the full range.

Some TVs do use an 8bit panel with dithering. But the result is often indistinguishable from 10bit panels and I've seen people take apart TVs on forums to find out what their panel is. Because if you can't tell by looking at the image, then it doesn't really matter.
Mascot
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(06-20-2017, 09:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by JackAubrey

Some TVs do use an 8bit panel with dithering. But the result is often indistinguishable from 10bit panels and I've seen people take apart TVs on forums to find out what their panel is. Because if you can't tell by looking at the image, then it doesn't really matter.

Average Joe Consumer possibly wouldn't notice the difference unless he saw side-by-side comparisons, but it's one of those things that once seen cannot be unseen. The 4K set on my racing rig is an 8-bit panel and there's a definite difference in peak brightness and local dimming (brightness range) compared to my 10-bit KS, even without side-by-sides. Colour gamut is harder to notice.

Lots of people swear their 300 supermarket special looks as good as a set five times that amount just like people swear they can't see a difference between 30fps and 60fps. If it works for you then more power to your elbow and more pounds in your pocket.

I think a lot of 'average' consumers are also viewing stuff in those godawful faux 'HDR+' modes, thinking it is proper HDR. It's an easy mistake to make.
Last edited by Mascot; 06-20-2017 at 09:03 AM.
Blimblim
The Inside Track
(06-20-2017, 09:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mascot

Well, HDR is still really in its infancy but I'm guessing the YouTube apps on other smart TVs could be updated to play HDR content, if the manufacturers and YouTube put their heads together. Hopefully all new HDR TVs will be 10-bit too, and 8-bit panels will die off like HD Ready TVs did to make way for full HD about a decade ago.

I'm not sure all TVs can be updated, as VP9 profile 2 decoding is either supported by the SoC, or it isn't. I guess the Shield TV could support it through the GPU cores, but a TV does not have this luxury.
meirl
Member
(06-20-2017, 09:11 AM)
nextgen has Started. 4K AND 60fps AND this IQ. Holy s...
JackAubrey
Member
(06-20-2017, 09:18 AM)

Originally Posted by Mascot

Average Joe Consumer possibly wouldn't notice the difference unless he saw side-by-side comparisons, but it's one of those things that once seen cannot be unseen. The 4K set on my racing rig is an 8-bit panel and there's a definite difference in peak brightness and local dimming (brightness range) compared to my 10-bit KS, even without side-by-sides. Colour gamut is harder to notice.

Lots of people swear their 300 supermarket special looks as good as a set five times that amount just like people swear they can't see a difference between 30fps and 60fps. If it works for you then more power to your elbow and more pounds in your pocket.

I think a lot of 'average' consumers are also viewing stuff in those godawful faux 'HDR+' modes, thinking it is proper HDR. It's an easy mistake to make.

I'm not talking about cheap sets, nor consumers who don't understand HDR. I thought you would realise that when I spoke of AV forums.

I'm talking about mid range sets where some models have 8bit with dithering and others 10bit. And folks on AVforums aren't sure which is which. Argue over it. Try with lots of test images and still aren't sure. And some then take the TV apart to check the panel. It's at this point that it doesn't matter.

But I said that already and you ignored that for your straw man version.
MilkyJoe
Member
(06-20-2017, 09:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by rjcc

those are all just pictures' from microsoft's media site.

they are not "4k screens" any more than they are promo captures. (there's no indication if they're in-game or replay mode, etc.)

https://news.xbox.com/media/

Try clicking on them for the source.

Here, i'll do one for you

http://i.imgur.com/soX2JGb.jpg
Mascot
Member
(06-20-2017, 09:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by JackAubrey

I'm not talking about cheap sets, nor consumers who don't understand HDR. I thought you would realise that when I spoke of AV forums.

I'm talking about mid range sets where some models have 8bit with dithering and others 10bit. And folks on AVforums aren't sure which is which. Argue over it. Try with lots of test images and still aren't sure. And some then take the TV apart to check the panel. It's at this point that it doesn't matter.

But I said that already and you ignored that for your straw man version.

What the fuck? GTFO with that paranoid attitude. I thought we were simply having a discussion. Jesus Christ. Go and stir shit up somewhere else. I'm not interested.
MilkyJoe
Member
(06-20-2017, 10:08 AM)
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Straw man appears to have replaced hyperbole as the preferred derogatory term around here.
Sebastian Suola
Junior Member
(06-20-2017, 10:14 AM)

Originally Posted by BlizzyAzz

Tested on Sony X85C works like a charm. Now it's time for DF to step up :-)

I'm trying it but my TV is not recognising my usb stick(s). What format is your usb stick formatted to? Do you have any folders on there? Why the hell is it always so difficult (to me atleast) to make my Sony devices play videos from USB sticks.
JackAubrey
Member
(06-20-2017, 10:23 AM)

Originally Posted by MilkyJoe

Straw man appears to have replaced hyperbole as the preferred derogatory term around here.

Straw man is a perfectly apt term when people ignore your point and misrepresent it as something else. What would you prefer I call it?

It's almost as bankrupt as your snide post.
CrayToes
Member
(06-20-2017, 10:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by JackAubrey

Straw man is a perfectly apt term when people ignore your point and misrepresent it as something else. What would you prefer I call it?

It's almost as bankrupt as your snide post.

Who shat in your corn flakes this morning?

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